Brand Problems Swept Under The Rug

imidazol97

What has happened to the "black box" that was in the ES that the trooper drove?

My suspicion is it's already been analyzed and the information is not good news for Toyota or it already would have been shared.

gagrice

They could include launch control with every car, so you'd have to press a button to do that, but they can't just cut the throttle when you hit the brakes.

You left out the most important fact. I stated that with WOT and HEAVY Braking the engine should have an automatic shut-off.

mcdawgg

If there was something else wrong with the cars other than the fact that the floor mat hooks were not used and/or mats were stacked up, then why is Toyota requiring the dealers to just install zip ties on the floor mats of new cars and cars that are serviced there? They are also required to speak to you about only using one mat. I heard this second-hand, so it would be nice to confirm it, but I have read elsewhere that someone bought a new Camry and the mat was zip-tied.

stever

I don't think Toyota and the NHTSA have agreed on a final official fix.

The current floor mat action may yet be the final recall but I think the jury is still out on whether other stuff needs to be changed.

Here's the NHTSA blurb:

"Toyota will notify owners of affected vehicles to remove any driver's floor mat and not replace it with any other floor mat pending the development of model-specific remedies. Toyota will mail a second notification to owners of affected vehicles notifying them of the free remedies when they are available. The first notice is expected to be mailed during October 2009 and Toyota will advise NHTSA of the estimated date when the remedies will be available. Owners may contact Toyota at 1-800-331-4331, Lexus at 1-800-255-3987."

So more may be in the pipeline; hard to say.

corvette

I'm curious as to what was redacted in the NHTSA report.

The report also identified the accelerator pedal design and push button start device as significant factors in the crash. I wonder what a recall and retrofit of a better-designed accelerator pedal would cost Toyota? And at what point this thing will reach critical mass and start to affect their sales figures?

british_rover

1) The power brake assistant would cease function in full throttle; the driver needs to apply over 220 lbs of force on the brake pedal to slow down the car which is impossible in a sitting position.

Hold on what? Where are you getting that info from and how do you figure it is impossible to apply 220 lbs of force to the brake pedal?

Now granted I am a big guy with even bigger legs, in certain styles I have to buy pants one size bigger then my waist to fit my thighs in, but I can leg press over 700 lbs in a sitting position with two legs. Even someone much smaller then me would be able to apply 220 lbs of force in a sitting position with both feet.

2) The Start/stop button needs to be held for more than 3 seconds to shut down the car; which is totally counter intuitive because in panic the driver would repeatedly press and release the button, not holding.

This is the only somewhat legitimate complaint you have going for you. A quick double tap is more intuitive then a 3 second hold to me. The quick double tap is how Volvos shut off their motor while at speed if they have push button start. I thought that was how Lexus did it to. I don't have a push button start lexus in stock right now to try that out. I do have a BMW with push button start around maybe I will try that out later.

3) The shift handle needs to go thru a lot of twist and turns to reach the neutral position; which is almost impossible to do in emergency without looking down to watch where it's going in a super fast moving car.

Come on seriously did you even look at the picture of the shifter?



You press to the right one notch and you are forced up and into neutral. There aren't any twists or turns.

http://l.yimg.com/dv/izp/lexus_es_350_sedan_2008_interior_gearshift.jpg

Larger picture for you.

We are talking a fairly simple shifter here not a Jaguar J-Gate caution HUGE picture.

If you want to talk about confusing shifters go look at the new collum shifted Mercs.

Caution another huge pic

Now that is confusing.

The X5 is even worse

stever

It's a bit hard to tell, even from your large picture, without seeing it in person. The picture looks like it's a straight push up from S-D to Neutral. A new owner may have to think about it a minute to realize that even though the N looks to be on the same plane as the S-D, you have to notch over and up.

I also wonder if something could fall in the cracks there and jam the shifter?

Hurry up and take a Lexus in trade.

houdini1

For some reason you continue to imply that Toyota is the only car company that does not have some sort of interlock that disables acceleration when the brake is depressed. Lets be clear...no auto mfg have a system that does this. Got it?

I think it is an idea that has merit and should be looked at by all mfgs.

corvette

"...the only car company that does not have some sort of interlock that disables acceleration when the brake is depressed. Lets be clear...no auto mfg have a system that does this."

VW, Audi, and BMW ignore throttle input when the vehicle is moving and the brake is depressed. Per the Gray Lady.

houdini1

I stand corrected, it is a good idea and good info to have. I would imagine that all cars will have this feature in the future as a failsafe.

That old saying is true. " It's not the things you know or don't know that gets you in trouble. It's the things that you think you know...but don't"

stever

The other variation is "the more you know, the less you know".

I'm a little surprised that WeatherTech hasn't posted some sort of note on their web site. Maybe all the mat publicity that we're yakking about really hasn't hit the mainstream consumer?

stickguy

take that any way you want to, but in this case Steve, no, those of us here debating this topic are far from representative of the normal car buyer.

I am thinking it takes something the level of 60 minutes (audi 5000) reporting before the average joe and jane in the street pay attention.

ANd even if they do, all they will focus on was using the winter mats wrong (which, I assume, is exactly what Toyota is trying to make happen).

Of course, once the lowest common denominator "knows" something, it will take 20 years for theperspective to change (Audi again).

gagrice

Thank you for saving me time researching the issue. I still did not like the shifter used in the X5 that I test drove. It just felt cheap and toy like to me. However it looks like the Germans are not wanting another Audi incident and have solved the problem that has baffled Toyota.

Smart Gas Pedals May Solve Floor-Mat Problem
If the vehicle is moving and both the gas and brake pedal are being pushed at the same time the computer tells the engine to ignore the gas pedal.

“It is an additional safety feature,” said Thomas Plucinsky, a BMW spokesman. “The brake takes precedence.”

Mr. Plucinsky said BMW made the feature standard on all its vehicles starting in the 2005 model year. He said the system requires a drive-by-wire accelerator and uses software BMW developed. It was designed, in part, with unintended acceleration in mind. He said the feature only works when the vehicle is moving. That means enthusiasts who want to launch the vehicle by revving the engine and holding down the brake may do so.

Audi, which was badly hurt by accusations of unintended acceleration in the late 1980’s, uses such a system, a company spokesman said. Volkswagen has had the feature since about the 2001 model year, a spokesman said. A Mercedes-Benz spokesman declined to confirm the use of such software.

gagrice

Hard to recognize the wreckage as a car.

http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/NHTSA_Santee_Inspect.pdf

stever

If the vehicle is moving and both the gas and brake pedal are being pushed at the same time the computer tells the engine to ignore the gas pedal

That's going to hurt the Midas-like places, especially in the AZ and FL retirement enclaves. All those people driving around town riding the brake are going to get a might confused.

It sounds like a rather elegant solution though and I haven't seen any reports of unintended deceleration by Audi owners.

corvette

Yeah, that's the report I was talking about earlier, wondering what was redacted. It might be something specific about the fatalities (i.e., quick and painless or slow and painful--there is some precedent for this, as the inquiry into the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster contained similar redaction), but the conspiracy theorist in me thinks that there's another vehicular problem they don't want to disclose at this point.

gagrice

It must have been in my 2005 Passat. And I never got shut down inadvertently. Though I don't use both feet to drive as some do. It is too hard on brake pads. Same as riding the clutch. My dad taught me not to do that in 1957. I don't think the article said it shut the engine off. It just ignored the throttle. So you go back to idle until you learn how to drive.

gagrice

The NHTSA could be giving Toyota a chance to fix their problems. I also wondered about the blacked out portion of the report. I think the EDR is a critical element that could bury Toyota also. If the driver did put the car in neutral or held down the button for longer than 3 seconds. That should all be recorded.

corvette

Referring to GM's cars, but:

"Beginning in the 1999 model year, though, GM upgraded SDMs to include an event data recorder. The newer SDMs track the car's speed (from the speedometer), engine RPM, the exact position of the gas pedal, and whether or not the brake pedal was pressed, among other statistics."

I'm sure the technology has advanced in the last 10 years. This is my own conjecture, but what if the computer recorded the driver frantically pressing the start/stop button (but never for the three continuous seconds required to stop the engine)? It'd be very damning evidence against Toyota's keyless ignition design.

All this story needs to blow it up to Audi / GM pickup / Ford Pinto proportion is for a major TV news outlet to stage a reenactment of the crash. (I'm just saying...)

ateixeira

You left out the most important fact. I stated that with WOT and HEAVY Braking the engine should have an automatic shut-off.

But you basically just described a brake-torque start.

I actually think the cut-off is a good idea, as long as there is an override and/or launch control. Same way there is a Stability Control off switch now.

Heck, it could be the same switch...

tlong

Big SUVs are the safest vehicle except when you have a maniac behind the wheel.

Or when an average driver needs to make a sudden evasive maneuver. Then you wish you were in a large sedan instead, because you will be rolling over. And pray the driver is smart enough to be wearing their seat belt, or they will likely be ejected. Big and heavy doesn't help in that case.

My brother's friend saw just such a rollover/ejection kill a mother of a baby. Luckily the baby had already been dropped off at day care.

xlu

All the info I listed there was from the cover page article on LA Times.

ateixeira

Thanks for finding good pics.

I think you guys misread that shifter, though...

Neutral is a straight shot, one slot up from Drive.

Sport mode is to the left, which you would tap up or down to shift, but only if you're in Sport mode.

Seeing as Drive is the one most commonly used, all it takes it a tap up to find Neutral.

You wrote this:

You press to the right one notch and you are forced up and into neutral. There aren't any twists or turns

And you are partially correct, there are indeed no twists or turn, but you don't even have to go right one notch, just tap it up.

So yes it's simple, but it's actually even more simply than you thought.

ateixeira

I haven't seen any reports of unintended deceleration ...

That cracked me up. Good one, whether it was intentional or not!

xlu

I agree. My speculation (and it can only be that) is if the driver had applied firm, steady, and continuous pressure (with both feet if necessary), the car would have slowed down

In the latest San Diego case, the brake had the discoloration from over heating. In an earlier northern California fatal case, the brake was badly worn out due to the driver's attempt to stop the car; once the brake failed, the car flew away and killed the other driver.

So in both cases, the drivers tried really hard to brake; the brake failed in a prolonged fight with the full engine force.

xlu

Toyota faces possible recall for frame corrosion on 2000-2001 Tundras

Toyota may be faced with another recall a week after its largest U.S. recall in company history.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on Tuesday said it would investigate frame corrosion on 2000 and 2001 model year Tundra pickups. An estimated 218,000 units are involved.

.....Toyota faced a similar frame-rust problem last year involving about 750,000 Tacoma pickups.

In March 2008, the company agreed to buy back 1995 to 2000 model year Tacomas at 150 percent of the high Kelly Blue Book value.

Then in November 2008, the company issued a recall on 2001 to 2004 model year Tacomas. If there was no rust, Toyota automatically extended the warranty to 15 years with unlimited mileage. If there was rust, the frames were replaced at no cost to the consumer.

Lyons did not say why the company did not issue a recall for the Tundra at the same time as the Tacoma.

xlu

Wall Street Journal:

BEIJING -- Toyota Motor Corp. recalled nearly 700,000 cars in China because of faulty window-control systems -- the Japanese auto giant's largest recall in the country and one that risks tarnishing the company's image here after a recent recovery in sales.

The size of the recall exceeds the 585,000 total vehicles Toyota sold in China last year. The move comes four months after a recall for a brake problem in Camry sedans in China. Toyota's initial handling of that event was criticized by a Chinese consumer advocate, although the company said it did nothing wrong.

China Central Television, the state-run broadcaster, in April reported on what it said was a faulty brake system in Camry sedans. The program featured an interview with a legal adviser from the China Consumers Association who accused Toyota of hiding the problem. Three days after the program aired, Toyota recalled 259,119 Camry sedans because of brake problems -- at the time Toyota's biggest recall in China.

houdini1

Ah, you beat me to it. Yes, it is a straight shot and you explained it very well. Same as on my two cars.

british_rover

SUVs always have a higher fatality rate per 100,000 registered vehicles per X miles driven.

ALWAYS GARY.

It is in the NHTSA data for the past many years.

skilau

I just bought All-weather Floor Mats from WeatherTech last week.
The install instructions literally have the warning on every line.

The first 5 lines of their document:

1. Remove any other floor mats prior to installation.

2. Before driving, make sure the mats do not in any way interfere with the safe operation of this vehicle.

3. Before driving make sure that the mats do not in any way interfere with the accelerator pedal, brake pedal or clutch pedal.

4.Make sure that all drivers of this vehicle are aware of these safety tips.

5. If so equipped, please be sure to use any retention devices supplied with your vehicle or mats.

These warnings are repeated on just every piece of paper they sent in my package!

Yeah, I would just "guess" that they are worried about this stuff too. :P

explorerx4

i have an issue with that statistic, but to keep the peace, that's all i am going to post about it.'idlswdy'.

explorerx4

i guess we can put the floor mat interfered with the operation of the brakes supposition to bed.
too bad the pictures did not show the position of the shift.
if it was all the way to the left, neutral was not directly in line.

gagrice

The Insurance institute does not agree with your opinion. I am far safer in my Sequoia 4WD than the two biggest selling sedans in the USA. Again someone that does not know how to drive should not own an SUV as they are a hazard to themselves and the cars around them. It was the auto industry that generated the aura around owning an SUV. Very few autos get better ratings from the IIHS than large heavy SUVs. And my insurance rates are lower than for an equivalent priced sedan.

http://www.iihs.org/research/hldi/composite_cls.aspx?y=2005-2007&cls=2

gagrice

Your Ford Explorers are safer than a Camry or Accord also. The anti SUV crowd will say anything to discredit the segment.

houdini1

The drive position is all the way to the RIGHT !! I own two of them. Now we can put it to bed.

explorerx4

post 814 clearly shows 4 different shift positions on the right.
my explorer has a column shift. when i drove a couple of different RX's, the shift gating was confusing to me. why bother? it's a Lexus. they are not sporty.

houdini1

Well, if you are that easily confused, it sounds like you should stick to the column shifter and just keep it simple.

explorerx4

i was just providing an example of an easily understandable design.
kind of like your lexus.

stever

Good post in case you aren't following the other Toyota discussion in Automotive News & Views:

nippononly, "Toyota in decline in 2009?" #3009, 1 Nov 2009 10:41 pm

The on/off button is being rethunk rethought.

stever

"Toyota Motor Corp. said Monday its vehicles are not at risk of accelerating out of control unless the driver's side floor mat is improperly installed or is not meant for that vehicle."

Toyota says it’s been cleared in floor mat cases (MSNBC)

Toyota Sends Out Floor Mat Warning Letters, Reassures Customers on YouTube (Straightline)

The video talks about various electrical tests the NHTSA subjected the cars too and their engineers founds that the systems were "robust".

houdini1

I wonder if we will ever know what info was in the "black box".

mcdawgg

That's the same thing (that there are no defects) I've been saying all along. Told you so !!!!!!!

Now let the fun begin again. I'll help - Toyota must have paid off the NHTSA, or the NHTSA is stupid, or the NHTSA hates domestic brands, or ........

lemko

But they do have a weird accelerator pedal design, but of course they're never going to admit to it. They'd be foolish.

houdini1

LOL, it is already happening over at the Toyota in decline forum. NHTSA was paid off, NHTSA made sure Toyota made money on C4C, NHTSA is protecting Toyota from lawsuits, and on and on.

It's about the same thing as trying to blame Toyota for an accident that someone had while driving a manual transmission that they were unfamiliar with, or someone filling their diesel car with gasoline.

gagrice

And you don't think the NHTSA was premature in closing the book on this case? The data from the black box has not been presented. If you noticed the tone of the Toyota spokesman changed dramatically after they got the NHTSA on their side. Until Toyota figures out how to stop a car with the brakes when it is out of control from whatever cause, they have a POORLY DESIGNED CAR. They need to get some German engineers to help them out. Then they can stack ten mats and not have runaway acceleration. I know several of you that believe the sun rises with Toyota are not going to be convinced they are sweeping this under the rug. The truth is they have for several years.

210delray

It's not really a "weird" accelerator pedal design. I looked at a number of midsize cars (2009-10 models) and most share the same basic design. Only the VW/Audi products had large, bottom-hinged pedals, like all cars did back in the day.

The Sonata's design is very close to that of the Camry.

What seems to vary most is the height of the pedal from the floor below.

210delray

No, I don't think NHTSA was premature. Look at all the other allegations of "sudden acceleration" over the last 25 years. In the vast majority of cases, NHTSA could find no defect, except people were stepping on the gas instead of the brake or there were floormat hangups as in this case.

I'm sure the black box will be interrogated, after litigation is undertaken by both sides in this case.

BTW, I finally looked at the Google street view of the crash scene. Gary, maybe you can speculate on why the driver didn't stay on the freeway (admittedly a rather sharp left turn was coming up) rather than choosing to go DOWN an exit ramp ending at a T intersection? I also noticed there were guardrails along the median -- at that point I wouldn't have cared about the car, and just scraped along those to scrub off some speed as a last-ditch attempt.

deltheking

We have become a nation of complainers. C`mon folks get real. Try to stop blaming everyone for our stupidity. Doesn`t matter if it`s a Toyota,Chevy,Honda or Ford.
You spray a solution in your house and then slip on it-and now you blame the fall on the solution b`cos it made the floor TOO slippery,caused you mental turmoil,and now you want to sue the solution company. :sick: We blame the restaurants for getting fat and obese instead of blaming our self control and getting the butt out and exercising which is tough !

A floorrmat getting stuck-- The maker`s fault??What a joke?? Always blaming someone for our incompetence or inefficiency or plain greed. No wonder GM/Chrysler and even Ford are in such a horrible position today. :lemon:

The next time an accident happens-is because the dash board reflected too much light and hence my eyes got distracted . And so ,sue the carmaker,the dashboard company,the car detailer who cleaned and shined up the dashboard,blame the excess sunrays,sue the weather dept for predicting a cloudy day when infact it`s a sunny day etc etc.Just ran out of excuses !!. We are becoming like babies who need someone else to change our diapers ! Sheesh ! :shades:

gagrice

I would assume it was due to traffic at that time. The off ramp to 52 which is what you are seeing from the air is usually crowded with slower traffic. The left lanes of 125 are rarely used as most of the traffic turns right onto Mission Gorge road. Remember that is a very steep hill going down to that T at Mission Gorge Rd. That probably made it a lot worse.

I was by there yesterday as there is a Toyota Service center close by. I cannot drive down that stretch of road without thinking about that crash. 125 is so steep that I have to brake a few times going down that grade to keep from coasting over 70 MPH.

I think it was premature for the NHTSA to close the book on this case until the contents of the black box is revealed.

gagrice

I am a strong advocate of Tort reform. I think the awards in many cases are totally crazy. I am also for companies and groups policing themselves. The AMA needs to pull the license on doctors that screw up more than once. Toyota needs to address their problems with their drive by wire system. The mats are just part of the issue. A car's brakes should be able to stop that car under any circumstance. It is Toyota that is making the excuses and pointing fingers to avoid the expense of fixing the root problem in those 3.8 Million vehicles. Audi experienced the same unintended acceleration problems and engineered their vehicles to stop when the brakes are applied at full speed. There is NO excuse for Toyota to let this slide until the next fatal crash.