Brand Problems Swept Under The Rug

houdini1

You guys must all be trial attorneys !! The sky is falling, the sky is falling...HELP!!

So, do you suppose that there are any other car mfgrs who have gated gear shifts or push button starters...and stoppers... or is it just Toyota?

210delray

Yes, you're right -- lots of manufacturers have gated auto shifters and start/stop buttons, especially the high-end ones.

Personally, I like the idea of not having to use keys to unlock or start the car, but none of my current cars has this (the oldest doesn't even have remote entry, or even power locks for that matter).

I don't get the deal behind gated shifters. What was wrong with the simple straight PRNDL on the floor shifter (with a lockout button for Reverse and Park)? I can't believe many people bother to use the newfangled manumatic feature anyway. The old style allows a simple bump to go from Drive to Neutral. A hard-to-use gated shifter could be a deal-breaker for me.

I wouldn't trust Clarence Ditlow on this one. He and his outfit have always subscribed to the notion of the car being at fault for "sudden acceleration."

stickguy

I'm thinking the proliferation of gated shifters was one of those "it looks cool so we can charge more" features.

We have a 2000 acura TL that I drive occasionally, and I always have to look at and fiddle with the dumb gated shifter, especially going to park.

It is easy though going into neutral, since D and N are in the same vertical plane, so that would be a super easy move, and I assumed that all gated shifters were designed the same way.

other cars with manumatics (BMWs, at least the older ones, and Volvos) have straight line shifters, they just have the manu piece at the bottom (below D)

houdini1

We own a 2006 Lexus LS and a 2007 LX and they both have gated shifters. The drive position and the neutral position are right next to each other and in the same "gate". It only requires a small nudge to move from drive to neutral. I do it all the time when driving on icy roads, etc.

colloquor

I don't understand the need for gated shifter, or the start/stop button either. From a design perspective, I understand the interface between the start/button and the smart key, but why?? The Drive and Neutral positions in a normal automatic shifter shifter are directly vertically adjacent to one another as well - a small nudge applies here too.

For those old enough to remember the starter button on the dash, or on the floor for that matter, in older vehicles - early '50s and prior, it seems like we're reinventing the wheel in a sense just for the sake of fad or fashion. As one with an electrical engineering background, many engineers adhere to the K.I.S.S. theory of design (Keep It Simple Stupid). The start/stop button actually complicates the whole process, especially electronically as most likely it's a "soft switch" controlling inputs to a CPU. Give me a plain old ignition switch anytime over the trend of using start/stop buttons. Personally, I won't buy a car with a start/stop button and smart key.

As many of you have stated here previously, there's a high probability the family in the Lexus would be alive today if it used a simple keyed ignition switch design.

ateixeira

I wouldn't trust Clarence Ditlow on this one. He and his outfit have always subscribed to the notion of the car being at fault for "sudden acceleration."

Thank you for breathing some sense in to this discussion.

Ditlow has an agenda - his scare tactics raise funding so he can get paid. He's hardly a neutral source.

The gated shifter is specifically designed to make it easy to shift in to neutral but not reverse. You tap it up and away from you, the most instinctively easy shift you could possible ask a driver to make.

andre1969

The gated shifter is specifically designed to make it easy to shift in to neutral but not reverse. You tap it up and away from you, the most instinctively easy shift you could possible ask a driver to make.

Can you still shift a modern car into reverse while it's moving forward? I thought they'd be "smart" enough to stop you from doing that nowadays?

robr2

As one with an electrical engineering background, many engineers adhere to the K.I.S.S. theory of design (Keep It Simple Stupid).

Hmmmm. My experience with many engineers (design, mechanical, fluid) is the opposite. The more elegant and complicated the design, the better.

ateixeira

Ditlow said the configuration of the gear shift panel, as outlined in a 2008 highway administration report, showed that the neutral position in the gear shift pattern was not immediately obvious

Tap it up. And it won't go down since it's locked out. So hit it in the only direction it will go.

How is that not obvious? :confuse:

ateixeira

On my Sienna you can't, not that I'd try, but it will let you go to neutral but not reverse.

My shifter pattern is L-2-3-4-D-N-R-P., so any allowable shift would be good - you would either go in to neutral or go to a lower gear. To get to R the gated shifter would block you, you sort of have to press down.

So getting R would be hard but getting N is something a blind monkey with his hands tied behind his back could do.

gagrice

If it was as simple as you say, that family would still be alive. Fact is the brakes failed at full throttle and we do not know if you can shift into neutral at WOT going 120 MPH. My guess is they have an override that stops downshifts that would destroy the engine. Toyota has some serious issues to address and I don't believe for a minute they are not sweating their poor designs about now. You can have the video game shifters and the keyless ignition. I want mechanical over ride for when the cheap Chinese computer running the show goes berzerk.

ateixeira

We don't know if the "brakes failed" - the wrong rubber mat bunched up in front of the pedals, and could have interfered. Low pedal pressure is consistent with the red-hot brake rotors reported by eye witnesses.

Brakes that fail would not have made that rotor glow. Inconsistent so total failure is not plausible.

Full pressure on an unobstructed brake pedal would have stopped the car. A car takes half a minute to accelerate to 100mph but can stop in a quarter as much time, because brakes are MUCH more powerful than car engines.

Look at 0-100-0 runs in any car mag. The braking happens in a fraction of the time.

My guess is they have an override that stops downshifts that would destroy the engine

Pure speculation. And it doesn't even make sense - rev limiters prevent that already. Weak speculation.

Do you know if the ECU was made in China or is that more speculation? You don't have to answer that, we already know.

gagrice

1. We do know the brakes failed to stop the car at WOT. Even Toyota admits the power assist is worthless at full acceleration. They also admitted the brakes would NOT stop the car under full acceleration.
2. Do you know for a fact that the ES350 can be shifted into neutral with WOT going 120 MPH?
3. Yes I am speculating that ToyLex buys their ECUs from China. Makes little difference. I do not want to trust a single electronic device for the total control of my vehicle.

So I am speculating just as you have speculated.

The Saylor crash and others like it across the country, they say, point to a troubling possibility: that Toyota's ignition, transmission and braking systems may make it difficult for drivers to combat sudden or unintended accelerations and safely recover, regardless of their cause.

The arrangement of those gear selections could make it difficult to shift from a forward gear directly into neutral in a panic situation, Toyota spokesman Lyons acknowledged.

"I think it's possible to get the shifter confused, but I can't be sure that's what happened" in San Diego, Lyons said. "You'd be surprised how many people around here [Toyota] don't know what the neutral position is for."

The most obvious impulse for any driver experiencing sudden acceleration is to apply the brakes. But when an engine goes to full throttle and is speeding at 120 mph, the brake might not stop the car.

The ES 350 and most other modern vehicles are equipped with power-assisted brakes, which operate by drawing vacuum power from the engine. But when an engine opens to full throttle, the vacuum drops, and after one or two pumps of the brake pedal the power assist feature disappears.


http://mobile.latimes.com/inf/infomo?view=page2&feed:a=latimes_1min&feed:c=busin- essnews&feed:i=49919182&nopaging=1

colloquor

Andre - here's a good one for you in reference to your question. My sister was looking to buy a Saturn SL2 a couple years after they first were introduced. The salesmen took her, and me, for a demo ride, and at 40MPH, he put the AT in reverse. It did nothing. No damage to the tranny, and according to him, it was as designed.

colloquor

The good and experienced electrical engineers do abide by the K.I.S.S. principle, especially those fundamentally trained in analog or RF. However, the vast majority of EE's coming out of universities today are digital types, and they, unfortunately, haven't quite grasped the basic premise of ingenious and functional, yet simple, designs.

And, there's nothing really wrong with CPUs, or other fabricated chips, coming from China, as their fabrication facilities are generally excellent. Most custom fab houses have actually been designed and set up by American's or European's. They're are only in China because of the low labor rate. The same goes for South Korea, e.g. Samsung, Lucky Goldstar (LG), et. al.

stever

"I think it's possible to get the shifter confused, but I can't be sure that's what happened" in San Diego, Lyons said. "You'd be surprised how many people around here [Toyota] don't know what the neutral position is for."

There's an argument for more stringent driver's ed and licensing requirements.

ateixeira

The brakes failed to stop the car because the mat got in the way and the driver was only able to apply partial brake pressure. If the mat really was stuck behind it he probably could not apply the brake pedal to the end of its travel, either.

With an ill-fitting rubber mat in the way it doesn't even matter - how can you stop the car with your feet all tangled up in a rubber mat? :confuse:

You can shift from Drive to Neutral, so it's up to you to prove a certain situation (speed, throttle position) creates an exception to that normal behavior. You said it could - that is speculation. Prove it.

If poeple "don't know what the neutral position is for" then that's driver error, wouldn't you agree?

I do not want to trust a single electronic device for the total control of my vehicle

Good thing the brakes are hydraulic.

Don't know how many times I've had to repeat that. :sick:

after one or two pumps of the brake pedal the power assist feature disappears

What caused that to happen?

What was at fault?

Think hard - what is to blame for the driver REPEATEDLY having to stab at the brake pedal, what could possibly have obstructed that action?

The ill-fitting rubber mat.

If an airplane pilot puts on the wrong glasses, different prescription, can't see a darn thing, the plane crashes...is it Boeing's fault?

That's what you are saying. It was Boeing because the dials were not big enough to be viewed without glasses.

Wrong. It's the glasses! Or the person who put the wrong ones on.

Just like it's the rubber mat impeding braking in that Lexus.

stickguy

in the last post, A.T. mentions "having your feet all tangled up in a rubber mat". And, in the old days, it happened to me in one of my cars all the time.

But, it was obvious the mat was jammed up in the pedals, so I just scooted it back with my foot usually (didn't even have to reach down I don't think).

So here, we have a trained CHP veteran, out of control for 2+ minutes, trying all his tricks (although we have no idea if that included trying to turn the car off, or shifting into neutral).

But, in all that time, he didn't notice the mat jammed in the pedals, or even think to pull on it to see? It must have obviously been sliding around, even before it got tangled. maybe reach down to tug on the gas pedal?

Was it a contributing factor? Sounds like it. But was it the only factor? I wouldn't bet on it.

also, was it ever proven that all the other similar cases had incorrect mat installation?

I would still not be surprised if there was a mechanical (computer?) flaw involved too.

explorerx4

when CR did their straight forward tests at 60 then 80 mph holding the gas enough to produce that speed, then applied the brakes at 80 without releasing the throttle, there was almost no braking even without any mat issues.

houdini1

You seem to be using the Ready, Fire, Aim technique here. The key is that in spite of all your wild speculations...they are just that....speculations. Why don't we wait until we have the results from the experts who are working on the case before we jump to conclusions.

gagrice

I have merely posted what the so called experts from the NHTSA along with others have stated. Even the Toyota people believe that the braking and shifting into neutral under those circumstances is problematic. My only speculation was on having a computer running the whole show with soft switch activation. Having worked on computers of all types since 1971, I have become skeptical of them being infallible. Toyota has a history of putting control software into their vehicles that was filled with bugs.

berri

That's a bit of an issue with Airbus versus Boeing as well.

houdini1

Toyota has a history of putting control software into their vehicles that was filled with bugs.

On the contrary, Toyota and Asian Mfgs in general have the best reputation for electronics in the car industry. Germany has the worst.

gagrice

Toyota and Asian Mfgs in general have the best reputation for electronics in the car industry

I don't recall hearing of hundreds of any German car just stalling at high speed from a computer glitch as did the Prius in the 2004 model. I can tell you the electronics in my 2007 Sequoia are sub standard to my 2005 GMC PU truck. If Toyota cannot build a decent CD player why should I trust their throttle control or shift control?

houdini1

Gagrice, I usually agree with your pov and always enjoy your posts. I guess this time we will just have to agree to disagree.

iluvmysephia1

especially Volkswagen that have the crappy reputation for failing electronics. Really it's only VW that I know of the electronics hocus-pocus going on with. It is what keeps me from really researching VW products much at all.

I don't know much about Toyota's electronic failures on their cars, but tell ya what, after this incident with the Lexus sedan in SD I'm all ears to learn more about it.

I just got a gut feeling that I would've really tried hard to jam that gearshift in to neutral, know what I mean? What a horrible tragedy this continues to be.

gagrice

Edmund's would be a boring forum if we all agreed all the time.

steveseoexpert

I have to call tomorrow to find out the code for my radio to work because I had the battery replaced, so my anti-theft thing kicked in and my radio won't work now! But anyways! It says I have to give them my radio part number? But when I took my radio out all I could see was a SIN Number and a Label Number. So are a part number and label number the same thing??

ingvar

But German cars stops when driver push the brakes, when uber-reliable [non-permissible content removed]-crap "...would NOT stop the car under full acceleration."

nippononly

If Toyota cannot build a decent CD player why should I trust their throttle control or shift control?

It is almost a certainty that Toyota is not designing or producing the stereos in its vehicles. At Toyota there is only one criterion for stereos in Toyota-branded vehicles: keep 'em cheap.

gagrice

The price they charge for a supposedly high end JBL audio system in my Sequoia Limited should be better than it is. The AM/FM radio is no better than our 20 year old Lexus. It has no option for XM or Sirius. And the CD player starts skipping half way through most commercial CDs. If the Bose sound system that was in my GMC PU truck was in the Sequoia I would have no complaint. I can live with the tailgate not going up and the mileage. It was a very pleasant drive around the country. 600+ miles in a day without being tired of driving.

Knowing what I know now, I would not buy the vehicle with built Toyota NAV and Audio. I would look for a high end unit like Pioneer to be installed. I feel stuck with this until I unload the vehicle which is more than likely soon now. Just don't have any vehicle I really want out there right now.

stever

Since you have both numbers, just let them tell you which one they need. And keep the radio handy in case there's another place a number could be hiding.

If you have a Honda, check out Fezo's Honda Radio Codes guide.

ateixeira

when CR did their straight forward tests at 60 then 80 mph holding the gas enough to produce that speed, then applied the brakes at 80 without releasing the throttle, there was almost no braking even without any mat issues.

Even so, if the mat got in the way and jammed the accelerator, how could a driver access the brake pedal?

Look at the shape of the mat itself. If it got in the way of the accelerator, it would have gotten in the way of the brake pedal too.

I'm spreaking of this specific case - the brake pedal would have been obstructed so how is that a failure in the braking system? It's only a failure to reach the pedal.

ateixeira

On the contrary, Toyota and Asian Mfgs in general have the best reputation for electronics in the car industry.

Something that CR, JD Powers, and TrueDelta all agree with.

ateixeira

If Toyota cannot build a decent CD player why should I trust their throttle control or shift control?

Maybe it's made in Guangong, China, like this one.

http://qualir.en.alibaba.com/product/251804741-202655064/08_09_Lexus_IS200_IS300- - - _Radio_DVD_MP3_Player_indash_GPS_Navigation_Bluetooth_Radio_TV_Tuner.html

The stereos are outsourced.

JBL is an American company, owned by Harman.

Nothing Japanese here, sorry.

ateixeira

But German cars stops when driver push the brakes, when uber-reliable [non-permissible content removed]-crap "...would NOT stop the car under full acceleration."

So you disagree with Clarence Ditlow about the Audi sudden acceleration issue?

This is LOL funny, folks.

Forgetting history, are we?

british_rover

Yup I used to point out the Denso electronics in the Rovers to show people that there were no more ghost of Lucas issues with them.

People would be like Denso hey isn't that Japanese.

Yes it is and then they felt better.

ateixeira

I've always referred to them as Nippon-Denso, so no surprise.

I edited my post above - JBL is American and the GPS Toyota puts in at least some Lexus models is made in China.

houdini1

Took the words right out of my mouth !!

gagrice

Mine is an 07 Sequoia with the NAV DVD + CD player unit. I put a brand new CD in this morning to play it. It jumped to track 7 right off. I was able to switch from one track to the other and it played. When I tried to eject it would not eject the CD. Plus the NAV would not close and the only thing that would work is AM radio volume from the steering wheel. I stopped by the Toyota Warranty station and they are ordering a complete new NAV audio system. If the Toyota dealer had done his job when I took it in the first time I would not have to go back twice.

houdini1

Do you have a gated gear shift in your Sequoia? If so, does it appear that it would be hard to shift from drive to neutral?

Also you had better be careful and not catch your finger in that extremely dangerous CD player. You should have had your Sequoia towed in to the dealer just to be safe.

gagrice

My 07 Sequoia has a mechanical column shift, P,R,N,D,L. If you look at several ToyLex cars they are all different. Making it problematic in a panic situation. My Mercedes Sprinter had TipTronic that was not bad. I do not remember where Neutral was.

Maybe an orientation class on loaners and rentals will be needed if every automaker has a unique system of shifting and engine shutoff.

explorerx4

you should go back and review some of the pictures posted including a jammed gas pedal.
unless the mat rolled up in a ball and ended up behind the brake pedal, i can't see any interference issue.

iluvmysephia1

and if what you're saying is true, then maybe the Toyota electronics are at fault with these "out-of-control" acceleration issues. Wouldn't it just take a matt pushed up hard against the front floorboard edge to get in the way? Why would it have to "ball up"?

To really know, it would take an honest assessment of the clearance situation and a re-creating of all of the involved elements to really tell what happened.

imidazol97

Looks like the brake pedal has lots of clearance despite the accelerator pedal's being impinged by the floor mat.

Braking shouldn't, shouldn't be affected, by the mat at least.

ingvar

No, I don't. I never had an Audi, so yesterday I take a5 for a test drive. On an empty road hit accelerator, keep my foot on it and keep my speed at 85mph, pressed brake, car stopped.

imidazol97

>and keep my speed at 85mph

The test should be at full wide open throttle that you press the brake and try to slow the car, release brake then repeated press the brake to see if the brake will continue to have enough vacuum assist to slow the car. The hypothesis is that a wide open throttle on the motor doesn't develop enough vacuum to operate the power brake assist. The first couple applications of the brake would still be assisted by the vacuum in reserve in the booster; repeat applications would use that up.

british_rover

Pretty much all new cars have EBA(Emergency Brake Assist) you hit the brake pedal quick enough and hard enough and even if you don't push it all the way down the full 100% braking force is kicked in electronically.

I don't think it matters if you lose vacuum assist after a few seconds as the ABS modulator should be able to provide the necessary boost.

210delray

Glad you brought this up. So if you keep your foot on the brake, the assist will take over. This feature is nearly universal in all cars with ABS (and ABS itself is now almost universal).

I wouldn't be at all surprised that the driver in this case lifted his foot off the brake pedal when he didn't get the stopping power he expected (because the throttle was still wide open).

ateixeira

Thanks for the pic, but remember that's the proper rubber mat (meant for that car) minus the anchors sliding where it just begins to interfere.

This case was a mat from an RX, wasn't it?

I'm not sure what year it was, but here's one that is shaped very differently:



Plus the mat was likely pushed much farther back than that. I can see the back of the brake pedal being blocked and that limiting pedal travel.