LOL ! That floor mounted starter "button" was more like a steel knob sticking thru the floor that was attached directly to the starter...and you had to stomp on it. Then some of the fancy starter buttons (electric) were moved to the dash...and some of you guys thought push button starters were new !!
The 59 Series II Rover we used to have on display had a push button start. You put the key in a separate ignition turned it then held the starter button, while gently pumping the gas, adjusting the choke back and forth, praying to the gods of Stonehenge and holding your head at precisely 32.8 degrees to the right and it usually started. This was a LHD model if it was a RHD model you held your head 32.8 degrees to the left.
:P
Actually as long as it wasn't really cold or wet that Rover usually started up on the first or second turn of the motor.
The one I saw was a 1950 Studebaker. The fixed button was under the clutch pedal--an early safety feature before NHTSA. It required disengaging the transmission by pressing the clutch before the starter would turn the engine. The button was fixed on the floor and wasn't a part of the starter. I believe other trucks I drove around the farms had a floor-mounted starter switch in other places besides under the pedal. It was always fun getting in a different vehicle and figuring out where the starter was.
My minivan has a bad front overhang and we're always ripping the plastic air dam diverter gizmo partway off on curbs and dips - it's amazing I haven't lost the whole thing on the highway by now.
Every year or so I have to replace the zip ties holding it on; maybe if I got my zip ties from somewhere other than Harbor Freight, they'd last longer.
They are pretty handy gizmos. My engine compartments are full of OEM ones. NASA likes them, but they call them wire ties.
Last gen Toyota Celicas have a very annoying belly pan that is held on with 'single use' plastic retaining clips. Pretty much every Euro sedan or coupe built since the late 90s also have belly pans but they are attached with nice little galvanized metric machine screws that are well protected from road salt usually.
Toyota couldn't do that they put these stupid clips that you can remove without breaking if you are lucky and have done it a few times. Most of the time they get broken which isn't a problem for a Toyota dealer but is a problem for an independent that doesn't happen to have those exact clips lying around.
We just used zip ties to hold those belly pans back on when we ran out of clips.
My belly pan (thanks for the nomenclature, Brit) has bolts and the plastic gizmos. The curbs caused the plastic gizmos to break and the pan would flop a bit. Then the bolt holes got ripped out over the years as we'd hit more stuff.
The nice thing about the zip ties is that you can make a little slit in the plastic and have a new tie off point in a few seconds.
It is a bit of a kludge, and kludging up floor mats may not help Toyota's rep as they get a grip on the slipping floor mat problem.
The belly pan does cover the whole underside of the car from the front bumper to the midline of the doors.
You can't get to the oil plug or pan or anything under the car without removing it. Yes you can pop the center out of the clips one time but a second time usually deforms the plastic too much and they won't hold anymore. That's why they are called single use clips. My jeep has the same clips holding the lower radiator shroud on but I only need to take those off when I change out the lower radiator hose and there are only four clips.
The Celica has more then four clips. I don't remember how many total but probably a dozen or so. You don't need to take them all off to get to the oil pan but you need to take off more then four plus remove a pair of sell tapping screws on the center line of the vehicle.
The engine in the Celica will overheat if the belly pan is not installed properly or is missing because the airflow around the radiator is wrong.
I don't see how Toyota is to blame for accidents involving a stuck accelerator.
Shouldn't the reasonable driver know to hit the brakes extra hard and shift into neutral and/or turn the ignition/engine off if the accelerator gets stuck?
I don't see a floor mat as being liable for bad driving mistakes made by a bad human driver. Just because my accelerator gets stuck doesn't give me a right to go kill myself by driving into an embankment hillside.
Just my 2 cents.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I think Toyota would like to have people believe the way you do. Just does not hold up to close scrutiny. This is at least the second time a fatal accident was a result of the poor design by Toyota. I don't think ty rapping the floor mat is going to solve the problem.
Johnson, 39, was killed July 26, 2007 — the same day he got a job as a dispatcher for a taxi company, and appeared on track to turning his life around after years of drug problems and being in and out of jail on assault charges.
Johnson's Honda Accord was hit from behind on a highway near San Jose, California, by a 2007 Toyota Camry, whose accelerator had gotten jammed by a Toyota-supplied floor mat, according to court documents.
The Camry was speeding out-of-control at up to 120 miles (190 kilometers) per hour, and slammed into Johnson's vehicle, killing him instantly. The car burst into flames, burning his body beyond recognition, court records say.
Toyota recalled the floor mats at that time. Charges against the driver of the Camry were dropped. Bohuchot said she bore no ill feelings toward him.
Funny, I was just doing a very quick scroll wheel look at the posts over the past few days when I came upon this and read it. I notice that no one has commented on it.
I looked at the ODI site for the vehicles that had what looked like problematic throttle controls and none had any complaints. A poorly designed accelerator is what Toyota is selling. So they get the flack from the media and consumers.
All I used for years in my GM PU trucks and Suburban was carpet samples to keep the original mats clean. Never had a problem and they were just tossed in on top of the carpeting. I preferred plush carpet as it was more comfortable. It seems several here find it hard to believe the facts. Toyota has a poorly designed throttle on about 3.8 Million vehicles. Hopefully they come up with a better fix than tyraps before someone else is killed.
A poorly designed accelerator is what Toyota is selling.
Uh, no, that was not mentioned in the bulletin. The only "problem" mentioned was some non Toyota floor mats that were installed incorrectly. The part about the accelerator is just your opinion.
The original 2007 recall was for Toyota floor mats slipping forward. This has been attributed to a dealer throwing in a floor mat that did not fit. Several of the complaints were WOT without any mention of floor mats causing the problem. I think Toyota knows they have some issues they cannot remedy with a simple tyrap. The Toyota spokesman admitted they are not sure how they will remedy the problem. Meaning what to you?
I guess I am having a problem on just where you draw the line as to whether or not it is a design problem. I think we can agree that the mats that caused that horrendous accident were the wrong mats and that they were incorrectly installed and/or stacked.
Now suppose instead of floor mats someone just tossed a bath towel in the floor and that got entangled in some way and caused an accident. Is that a design problem? Or what if a soccer ball got wedged under the brake pedal. Is that a design problem?
IMO it is just unreasonable to expect a manufacturer to anticipate every thing that could possibly happen. If they did, no one could afford their products. All manufacturers are already held to very high standards when it comes to products liability in this country. Much more so than in most other countries and all this added cost is a big contributing factor in the decline of our manufacturing industry.
All accidents and deaths are horrible and in a perfect world we could prevent all of them, but consider this one episode with all its gray areas in relation to the millions and millions of cars that Toyota has sold here.
...of the clearance between the floor and the accelerator pedal in late model Toyota? I was looking at the accelerator pedal on my Mercury Grand Marquis LS the other day and I'd have to stack at least three mats on top of each other to catch the pedal. First of all, who stacks a mat on top of another mat? Do they feel the need to protect the OEM mats from wear? Why, after decades of floor mat use, is this now an issue?
Anybody remember those huge vinyl mats the stretched across the whole width of the floor?
Yes, since the problem is just fairly recently showing up, it would be interesting to see pics of the accelerators, say, over a 6 or 7 model year span, to see what has changed.
From the pictures I've seen, it looks like the Toyota gas pedals are little slivers that are slightly concave, with the base mounted fairly close to the floor, and when you stomp on them, they go forward more than down, so it's easy for a bulky mat to slide up and wedge under the pedal.
My uncle has an '03 Corolla. I haven't driven it in awhile, but I do remember something a bit odd about the pedal feel, compared to what I'm used to. Next time I see the car, I'll check it out.
I guess I am having a problem on just where you draw the line as to whether or not it is a design problem
Same here.
The problem is when we blame the design we are enabling the installation errors and cheap, ill-fitting carpets. Ban those chinese-made Wal Mart carpets, that would be more effective at saving lives.
Would I prefer that all designs be fault tolerant? Yes, of course.
But I draw the line at them taking the blame, because this takes the onus off of owners from having to read instructions, directions, manuals, etc. It also gives the plastic mat manufacturer a free pass.
Or what if a soccer ball got wedged under the brake pedal. Is that a design problem?
TRUE STORY: my college roommate's sister adopted a dog and he wanted to ride in the front seat with her. The dog jumped in her lap, fell to the floor, and she crashed when she could not reach the brake pedal.
Now...I ask...is that also a bad pedal design?
She drove an Olds Cutlass.
Maybe the whole floor should be one giant brake pedal?
We could have one hard to reach gas pedal, and Toyota could even add a lawyer screen on the GPS - Are you SURE you want to move forward? You would have to answer yes before the car would accelerate.
IMO it is just unreasonable to expect a manufacturer to anticipate every thing that could possibly happen
I thought Gagrice's position (which I can actually support) was that it is not 100% clear that this is just a case of mat interference. The NHTSB would have to investigate every case to see if they all had unrestrained mats, right?
So, assuming there are some number of cases where there was no mat mis-usage, what was the cause in the other cases?
I know that cars can't be made totally idiot proof, but there should be basic design choices made, especially in such important areas, for a moderate amount of fault tollerance.
People shouldnt get too close to the fan when the car is running. Says so right in the manual. Does that mean there is no need for a shroud?
Who knows, maybe it is a 2 pronged problem. Mat interferes with pedal, which somehow whacks out the car when it gets jammed open?
one other point. If the mat prevents the pedal from releasing, how the heck does it jam it at WOT? Shouldnt it be stuck at the place it was depressed to?
Bad example - the shroud is not there for safety, it's there to force the air flow through the radiator's cooling fins. That's the only reason for a shroud.
A dummy can still reach in and cut his fingers on the fan. They'd have to put a screen to protect from that level of stupidity (and note that they do not).
"The Grand Cherokees, which were built between 1993 and 2004, are three to four times as likely to catch fire in a rear-impact collision than other midsize SUVs, according to the petition filed by the Center for Auto Safety.
Consumer Reports notes that the petition filing "indirectly raises an interesting question of whether the U.S. government now faces a conflict of interest as a vehicle regulator and an owner with a 10 percent stake in Chrysler."
I noticed today I can put my whole toe part of my shoe under my accelerator pedal between it and the horizontal part of the floor. Lots of room. Well-designed.
i wonder what 4 times more likely is? 4 in a million versus 1 in a million? after bankruptcy, is Chrysler liable for vehicle produced by the 'old' Chrysler? i think remember reading 'technically no'.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
i wonder what 4 times more likely is? 4 in a million versus 1 in a million? after bankruptcy, is Chrysler liable for vehicle produced by the 'old' Chrysler? i think remember reading 'technically no'.
I wonder what the overall death rate is for the Grand Cherokee versus similar-sized SUVs? Remember all the hoopla over the "Barbecue that seats 4" Pinto and the '73-87 GM pickups with the saddle tanks? Well, for all the bad press that they got for blowing up in crashes, I remember reading that overall, the death rates in those vehicles were slightly less than in competing vehicles of the era. I read from a couple sources that the Pinto has been credited for 27 deaths due to fire, and around 180 from some kind of transmission defect (was that the transmissions that would shift out of park by themselves and roll over your kids playing in the driveway? I thought that was only the bigger cars?)
Now this is from Consumer Reports' mouth, so take it with a grain of salt... Examining NHTSA data, the Center determined that the named Grand Cherokees were involved in 172 fatal fires, resulting in 254 deaths between 1992 and 2004. According to the petition, that is a higher fatality rate than for the Ford Pinto, which was subject to a similar recall in 1978.
However, I wonder if that was 172 TOTAL fatal fires, or only the ones from getting rear-ended? My guess is total fires. And of the ones where it was from a rear-end collision, well, let's see the data on how hard the vehicles were hit, and a reasonable guess on how many would have caught on fire regardless.
actually made an somewhat close attempt using an IS 350 and a few other vehicles in order to duplicate the 'stuck throttle/jamming on brakes' effect. get up to speed x, then hold those rpms while jamming on brakes. one test up to 60 mph followed by another from 80 mph. basically, the brakes in the IS 350 were pretty ineffective from 80 right after the 60 mph test. a couple of other vehicles have software that cuts the throttle if you a braking hard. if you search around, i am sure you will find the report. one interesting comment i read noted that with the gated shifter patterns many cars have, finding neutral my have been a bit confusing.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Toyota's runaway-car worries may not stop at floor mats
The 2009 Lexus ES 350 shot through suburban San Diego like a runaway missile, weaving at 120 miles an hour through rush hour freeway traffic as flames flashed from under the car.
At the wheel, veteran California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor desperately tried to control the 272-horsepower engine that was roaring at full throttle as his wife, teenage daughter and brother-in-law were gripped by fear.
"We’re in trouble. . . . There’s no brakes," Saylor's brother-in-law Chris Lastrella told a police dispatcher over a cellphone. Moments later, frantic shrieks filled the car as it slammed into another vehicle and then careened into a dirt embankment, killing all four aboard.
The tragedy Aug. 28 was at least the fifth fatal crash in the U.S. over the last two years involving runaway Toyota and Lexus vehicles made by Toyota Motor Corp. It is also among hundreds of incidents of sudden acceleration involving the company's vehicles that have been reported to Toyota or the federal government, according to an examination of public records by The Times.
Toyota has blamed the incidents -- apart from those caused by driver error -- on its floor mats, asserting that if they are improperly installed they can jam open the accelerator pedal. A month after the Saylor crash, Toyota issued its biggest recall in company history, affecting 3.8 million vehicles in model years as far back as 2004. But auto safety experts believe there may be a bigger problem with Toyota vehicles than simply the floor mats.
The Saylor crash and others like it across the country, they say, point to a troubling possibility: that Toyota's ignition, transmission and braking systems may make it difficult for drivers to combat sudden or unintended accelerations and safely recover, regardless of their cause.
One remedy being considered by Toyota implicitly acknowledges what critics have been saying for almost 10 years: that the company's highly computerized engine control system lacks a fail-safe mechanism that can quickly extinguish sudden acceleration events, whether they are caused by floor mats, driver errors or even unknown defects in the electronic control system, as alleged in some lawsuits.
Reports of sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles has resulted in nine federal inquiries and investigations since 2000, two of which determined that there were improperly positioned floor mats. Another found a loose part in Sienna minivans, and yet another probe remains open. The rest were dismissed with no findings of equipment problems.
In most Toyota vehicles, the floor mats are held in place by two clips, which can come loose. Toyota offers a standard carpeted floor mat and an optional rubber version. Both mats have a cutout around the accelerator pedal. The vehicle driven by Saylor had a rubber floor mat, but Toyota said it was for a different model of Lexus.
Since the San Diego crash, Toyota has urged all its customers to remove their floor mats as an interim fix. But longer term, Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said, the company is examining significant design changes.
One possible remedy is to redesign the accelerator pedal to make it harder to get caught by a floor mat, he said. Another potential fix, he said, involves reprogramming the engine's computer to automatically cut power when a driver brakes while the gas pedal is depressed.
Comments
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
:P
Actually as long as it wasn't really cold or wet that Rover usually started up on the first or second turn of the motor.
The one I saw was a 1950 Studebaker. The fixed button was under the clutch pedal--an early safety feature before NHTSA. It required disengaging the transmission by pressing the clutch before the starter would turn the engine. The button was fixed on the floor and wasn't a part of the starter. I believe other trucks I drove around the farms had a floor-mounted starter switch in other places besides under the pedal. It was always fun getting in a different vehicle and figuring out where the starter was.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't remember our family actually having any cars you had to crank but I can sure remember hand cranking a few tractors.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Every year or so I have to replace the zip ties holding it on; maybe if I got my zip ties from somewhere other than Harbor Freight, they'd last longer.
They are pretty handy gizmos. My engine compartments are full of OEM ones. NASA likes them, but they call them wire ties.
I much prefer the modern stalk-mounted dimmer switches. I've never driven a car or truck old enough to have a starter button on the floor.
Toyota couldn't do that they put these stupid clips that you can remove without breaking if you are lucky and have done it a few times. Most of the time they get broken which isn't a problem for a Toyota dealer but is a problem for an independent that doesn't happen to have those exact clips lying around.
We just used zip ties to hold those belly pans back on when we ran out of clips.
Oh and apparently tundra frames have the same problem tacoma frames did.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That may be a problem for a first-time DIYer but you'd think a shop would get the hang of it.
No big deal, IMHO. Plastic won't rust. And they don't cover the stuff you need to access frequently like the oil filter or the oil pan.
The nice thing about the zip ties is that you can make a little slit in the plastic and have a new tie off point in a few seconds.
It is a bit of a kludge, and kludging up floor mats may not help Toyota's rep as they get a grip on the slipping floor mat problem.
The belly pan does cover the whole underside of the car from the front bumper to the midline of the doors.
You can't get to the oil plug or pan or anything under the car without removing it. Yes you can pop the center out of the clips one time but a second time usually deforms the plastic too much and they won't hold anymore. That's why they are called single use clips. My jeep has the same clips holding the lower radiator shroud on but I only need to take those off when I change out the lower radiator hose and there are only four clips.
The Celica has more then four clips. I don't remember how many total but probably a dozen or so. You don't need to take them all off to get to the oil pan but you need to take off more then four plus remove a pair of sell tapping screws on the center line of the vehicle.
The engine in the Celica will overheat if the belly pan is not installed properly or is missing because the airflow around the radiator is wrong.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
fierodough, "GMC Yukon Denali Chrome Wheel Problems" #15, 8 Oct 2009 10:54 am
Shouldn't the reasonable driver know to hit the brakes extra hard and shift into neutral and/or turn the ignition/engine off if the accelerator gets stuck?
I don't see a floor mat as being liable for bad driving mistakes made by a bad human driver. Just because my accelerator gets stuck doesn't give me a right to go kill myself by driving into an embankment hillside.
Just my 2 cents.
Johnson, 39, was killed July 26, 2007 — the same day he got a job as a dispatcher for a taxi company, and appeared on track to turning his life around after years of drug problems and being in and out of jail on assault charges.
Johnson's Honda Accord was hit from behind on a highway near San Jose, California, by a 2007 Toyota Camry, whose accelerator had gotten jammed by a Toyota-supplied floor mat, according to court documents.
The Camry was speeding out-of-control at up to 120 miles (190 kilometers) per hour, and slammed into Johnson's vehicle, killing him instantly. The car burst into flames, burning his body beyond recognition, court records say.
Toyota recalled the floor mats at that time. Charges against the driver of the Camry were dropped. Bohuchot said she bore no ill feelings toward him.
Poor design by Toyota
There are many bad driver's on the road that shouldn't be driving.
Darwinism sometimes works.... unfortunately, sometimes innocent people are taken with them...
not that i haven't been up on 2 wheels before, or driving on 3.
Then you must agree that stacking your floor mats so high that they affect your accelerator is also "operator error". Right?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
the premise was good, but the execution was lame.
I can't think of any other make that had this system.
All I used for years in my GM PU trucks and Suburban was carpet samples to keep the original mats clean. Never had a problem and they were just tossed in on top of the carpeting. I preferred plush carpet as it was more comfortable. It seems several here find it hard to believe the facts. Toyota has a poorly designed throttle on about 3.8 Million vehicles. Hopefully they come up with a better fix than tyraps before someone else is killed.
Uh, no, that was not mentioned in the bulletin. The only "problem" mentioned was some non Toyota floor mats that were installed incorrectly. The part about the accelerator is just your opinion.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
According to Toyota:
The solution for this issue has yet to be announced, but Hanson is confident they can develop a remedy.
PS
14 million recalls in 5 years is nothing to brag about.
Now suppose instead of floor mats someone just tossed a bath towel in the floor and that got entangled in some way and caused an accident. Is that a design problem? Or what if a soccer ball got wedged under the brake pedal. Is that a design problem?
IMO it is just unreasonable to expect a manufacturer to anticipate every thing that could possibly happen. If they did, no one could afford their products. All manufacturers are already held to very high standards when it comes to products liability in this country. Much more so than in most other countries and all this added cost is a big contributing factor in the decline of our manufacturing industry.
All accidents and deaths are horrible and in a perfect world we could prevent all of them, but consider this one episode with all its gray areas in relation to the millions and millions of cars that Toyota has sold here.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Anybody remember those huge vinyl mats the stretched across the whole width of the floor?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
My uncle has an '03 Corolla. I haven't driven it in awhile, but I do remember something a bit odd about the pedal feel, compared to what I'm used to. Next time I see the car, I'll check it out.
Same here.
The problem is when we blame the design we are enabling the installation errors and cheap, ill-fitting carpets. Ban those chinese-made Wal Mart carpets, that would be more effective at saving lives.
Would I prefer that all designs be fault tolerant? Yes, of course.
But I draw the line at them taking the blame, because this takes the onus off of owners from having to read instructions, directions, manuals, etc. It also gives the plastic mat manufacturer a free pass.
Or what if a soccer ball got wedged under the brake pedal. Is that a design problem?
TRUE STORY: my college roommate's sister adopted a dog and he wanted to ride in the front seat with her. The dog jumped in her lap, fell to the floor, and she crashed when she could not reach the brake pedal.
Now...I ask...is that also a bad pedal design?
She drove an Olds Cutlass.
Maybe the whole floor should be one giant brake pedal?
We could have one hard to reach gas pedal, and Toyota could even add a lawyer screen on the GPS - Are you SURE you want to move forward? You would have to answer yes before the car would accelerate.
IMO it is just unreasonable to expect a manufacturer to anticipate every thing that could possibly happen
That is not just your opinion, it's a fact.
Well written post, houdini1.
So, assuming there are some number of cases where there was no mat mis-usage, what was the cause in the other cases?
I know that cars can't be made totally idiot proof, but there should be basic design choices made, especially in such important areas, for a moderate amount of fault tollerance.
People shouldnt get too close to the fan when the car is running. Says so right in the manual. Does that mean there is no need for a shroud?
Who knows, maybe it is a 2 pronged problem. Mat interferes with pedal, which somehow whacks out the car when it gets jammed open?
one other point. If the mat prevents the pedal from releasing, how the heck does it jam it at WOT? Shouldnt it be stuck at the place it was depressed to?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Bad example - the shroud is not there for safety, it's there to force the air flow through the radiator's cooling fins. That's the only reason for a shroud.
A dummy can still reach in and cut his fingers on the fan. They'd have to put a screen to protect from that level of stupidity (and note that they do not).
Man, I haven't thought about those for years, Lemko. Probably real collector's items with the Saturday car show crowd.
Consumer Reports notes that the petition filing "indirectly raises an interesting question of whether the U.S. government now faces a conflict of interest as a vehicle regulator and an owner with a 10 percent stake in Chrysler."
Potential 1993-2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Recall Angers Chrysler (Inside Line)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
after bankruptcy, is Chrysler liable for vehicle produced by the 'old' Chrysler?
i think remember reading 'technically no'.
And it's not like Chrysler is going to step up - those cars haven't been produced for half a decade.
after bankruptcy, is Chrysler liable for vehicle produced by the 'old' Chrysler?
i think remember reading 'technically no'.
I wonder what the overall death rate is for the Grand Cherokee versus similar-sized SUVs? Remember all the hoopla over the "Barbecue that seats 4" Pinto and the '73-87 GM pickups with the saddle tanks? Well, for all the bad press that they got for blowing up in crashes, I remember reading that overall, the death rates in those vehicles were slightly less than in competing vehicles of the era. I read from a couple sources that the Pinto has been credited for 27 deaths due to fire, and around 180 from some kind of transmission defect (was that the transmissions that would shift out of park by themselves and roll over your kids playing in the driveway? I thought that was only the bigger cars?)
Now this is from Consumer Reports' mouth, so take it with a grain of salt...
Examining NHTSA data, the Center determined that the named Grand Cherokees were involved in 172 fatal fires, resulting in 254 deaths between 1992 and 2004. According to the petition, that is a higher fatality rate than for the Ford Pinto, which was subject to a similar recall in 1978.
However, I wonder if that was 172 TOTAL fatal fires, or only the ones from getting rear-ended? My guess is total fires. And of the ones where it was from a rear-end collision, well, let's see the data on how hard the vehicles were hit, and a reasonable guess on how many would have caught on fire regardless.
get up to speed x, then hold those rpms while jamming on brakes.
one test up to 60 mph followed by another from 80 mph.
basically, the brakes in the IS 350 were pretty ineffective from 80 right after the 60 mph test.
a couple of other vehicles have software that cuts the throttle if you a braking hard.
if you search around, i am sure you will find the report.
one interesting comment i read noted that with the gated shifter patterns many cars have, finding neutral my have been a bit confusing.
The 2009 Lexus ES 350 shot through suburban San Diego like a runaway missile, weaving at 120 miles an hour through rush hour freeway traffic as flames flashed from under the car.
At the wheel, veteran California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor desperately tried to control the 272-horsepower engine that was roaring at full throttle as his wife, teenage daughter and brother-in-law were gripped by fear.
"We’re in trouble. . . . There’s no brakes," Saylor's brother-in-law Chris Lastrella told a police dispatcher over a cellphone. Moments later, frantic shrieks filled the car as it slammed into another vehicle and then careened into a dirt embankment, killing all four aboard.
The tragedy Aug. 28 was at least the fifth fatal crash in the U.S. over the last two years involving runaway Toyota and Lexus vehicles made by Toyota Motor Corp. It is also among hundreds of incidents of sudden acceleration involving the company's vehicles that have been reported to Toyota or the federal government, according to an examination of public records by The Times.
Toyota has blamed the incidents -- apart from those caused by driver error -- on its floor mats, asserting that if they are improperly installed they can jam open the accelerator pedal. A month after the Saylor crash, Toyota issued its biggest recall in company history, affecting 3.8 million vehicles in model years as far back as 2004. But auto safety experts believe there may be a bigger problem with Toyota vehicles than simply the floor mats.
The Saylor crash and others like it across the country, they say, point to a troubling possibility: that Toyota's ignition, transmission and braking systems may make it difficult for drivers to combat sudden or unintended accelerations and safely recover, regardless of their cause.
One remedy being considered by Toyota implicitly acknowledges what critics have been saying for almost 10 years: that the company's highly computerized engine control system lacks a fail-safe mechanism that can quickly extinguish sudden acceleration events, whether they are caused by floor mats, driver errors or even unknown defects in the electronic control system, as alleged in some lawsuits.
Reports of sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles has resulted in nine federal inquiries and investigations since 2000, two of which determined that there were improperly positioned floor mats. Another found a loose part in Sienna minivans, and yet another probe remains open. The rest were dismissed with no findings of equipment problems.
In most Toyota vehicles, the floor mats are held in place by two clips, which can come loose. Toyota offers a standard carpeted floor mat and an optional rubber version. Both mats have a cutout around the accelerator pedal. The vehicle driven by Saylor had a rubber floor mat, but Toyota said it was for a different model of Lexus.
Since the San Diego crash, Toyota has urged all its customers to remove their floor mats as an interim fix. But longer term, Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said, the company is examining significant design changes.
One possible remedy is to redesign the accelerator pedal to make it harder to get caught by a floor mat, he said. Another potential fix, he said, involves reprogramming the engine's computer to automatically cut power when a driver brakes while the gas pedal is depressed.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-recall18-2009oct18,0,739395.story?p- - age=1&track=rss