Yeah my wife had a sportage with knee air bags before we were married. Wasn't sure if someone had them before Kia. Odd that they would be first but according to wikipedia they are.
But ... does this mean Toyota should be liable? Or the idiot?
I'm thinking that Toyota might have done the same analysis as Ford with their gas tank in that it would cost more to redesign than to simply pay off any lawsuits that could occur with their current pedal design.
Would a redesign admit guilt on Toyota's part?
BTW, I agree with your point regarding the ladder. They should've also had the warning printed in Cantonese considering its probable point of origin.
Seems like I had a stepladder back in the 70's that had steps on both sides. The folding Little Giant type ladders still work that way. So I can see where the warning label comes from on a ladder (mine has a laundry list of stuff - angle of repose, watch for power lines, etc.).
Next up will be labels on the start/stop button - hold 3 seconds to turn off stuff.
And I can see a situation where a 4 year old is sitting on the gas pedal while the 6 year old sibling is playing with the gearshift, and Dad bends over to take a pebble out of a tire, causing the key fob in his pants pocket to activate. Off to the races!
I'm still waiting to see if the 100+ incidents are attributable solely to the mats, to the pedal design, or to some drive by wire issue. Or some combination of factors.
And I can see a situation where a 4 year old is sitting on the gas pedal while the 6 year old sibling is playing with the gearshift, and Dad bends over to take a pebble out of a tire, causing the key fob in his pants pocket to activate. Off to the races!
Steve, you're a host here, aren't you supposed to be setting an example and keeping it real? The fob has to be INSIDE the car in order to start the engine and pressing a button on the fob will not start the engine, even when the fob is inside the car.
I dunno, I just played with a "smart key" on a Prius test-drive for a few minutes and I don't think that one worked without being inserted somewhere. But for some smart keys, I thought the fob just had to "be in range." How else could they unlock the door for you as you approached the car?
This scenario seems plausible to me since I'm always locking my Subaru unintentionally when I'm messing around in my garage, if I have my fob in my pocket. So it doesn't seem much of a stretch to think of a situation where the ignition gets confused and thinks the key is in the proper place (or in range) and cranks the car when the button is pushed by the 6 year old.
I am going to take a wild guess and say I have been in more high end luxury makes with smart keys then anyone else who regularly posts here.
I didn't say that originally but explorer4 said it in another thread and I thought it was probably true.
Off the top of my head.
Volvo, Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Land Rover, Audi, Bentley, Infiniti and Acura. The only Ferrari, a 2006 F430 with Super Fast F1 Transmission, I have driven did not have a Smart key.
The smart key proximity sensor is very, very accurate. You can be standing at the driver's side door with the key and someone at the passenger side door won't be able to open the door unless you unlock all the doors.
The key knows when it is inside the car and if you are holding it outside the car when it is running on most models there is an alert of some kind. The last Lexus I had with a smart key made a very loud beeping noise if you held the key even a few inches outside the window or moonroof.
I had the car at a customers house and the daughter had the key in her pocket and got out of the car. It stated beeping very loudly so I showed her how the key knew if it was in the car or not.
Some Acuras I have been in also make noise and a warming message shows up in the instrument cluster.
There are two different ranges for the key. One range for opening the doors and another for starting the car. I guess if someone had their key in their back pocket and was sitting on the open window sill of a car maybe someone could start it. Your foot would still have to be on the brake though and I would expect the moment the car started the driver would be aware of it. You can't start the car in gear so first they kid/s would have to start it then get the car into gear before the person holding the key could get back in the car.
Pretty unlikely I think.
The Prius smart key like many other vehicles has two versions. The first version is only some what smart. You have to put the key in a slot to start the car and have to hit the button on the fob to open the door. Most brands charge you a few hundred, or if you are BMW and probably Merc and Audi too over a 1,000 dollars, to get the full smart key with key less start and touch open doors.
I could see the manufacturers adding a third redundancy and using a seat sensor to tell whether someone is sitting in the car (while applying the brake).
And yeah, the Prius key had to go in a slot before the button would work.
(and don't forget that you can point a fob at your chin and double the range :P ).
Allowing the doors to be unlocked (not actually unlocking the doors) and starting the car are two completely different functions with two different sensors. The fob must be inside the car to allow the car to be started.
I am thinking the transmission ECU may not allow you to shift out of gear at high speed.
While I can't say for the vehicle in question, I've done this many times to try and identify whether vibrations are drive line or suspension related. As far as the motor blowing up, most manufacturer's have rev limiters built in to the programming as to avoid such catastrophic failures. Try taking any vehicle past redline and you'll see what I mean.
"Smart" key in my pocket. 2 inquisitive toddlers in the car. The 4 year old is on the floor of the driver's side, where, having gotten bored pulling the mat out of the clip and rolling it up, he plays race car with his back against the seat bottom and has one leg on the brake, and the other flooring the gas.
Older sister is pressing the Easy button (she loves the Staples ads), and keeps kicking the gear shift.
The windows are down. I lean against the car trying to put my snowboard in the rocketbox on top and the fob in my jacket pocket is in range of the start button.
Fortunately, just at the last minute I happen to glance at the 18 paragraph bright yellow warning label glued to the roof (and the hood, and the door) and back off, saving everyone from near disaster.
tex, i think you have it wrong here. think about why gas pedal and brake pedal are different shapes, the brake pedal being horizontal and the gas pedal vertical in design. why is the gas pedal always on the right, at least in a lhd vehicle? these are all to provide a large safety margin.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
how about this? you take off you restrictive jacket and throw it in the car, since you are going to put your snowboard in the cargo box on the roof? ok, i am done too.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Toyota is wasting time and money recalling due to the floor mats. The problem is something other than the floormats. They are also not going back far enough. The sudden acceleration incidents have been going on since 2002. If they really want to know what is causing the problem, they would go back to before the problem existed and analyze the changes made and rule them out one by one as to what is the common denominator. I personally believe it is something electronic that controls the accelerator that is causing the problem. It is a waste of time, money, and innocent lives to recall for the floor mats when the real problem is something related to the electronic accelerator.
The problem is something other than the floormats... the real problem is something related to the electronic accelerator.
You'd think people would notice bunched up floor mats, but on the other hand everyone speculated electronic gremlins in the Audi 5000 but could never come up with anything. Its just strange, but it certainly seems to argue caution with electronic ignition and no key. Personally, I think I'll stay away from vehicles that don't require a key in the ignition as a back up way to turn off a runaway vehicle.
Exactly. About the number of complaints I keep reading - a hundred and something?
Let's just say it was as much as 200. 200/3,800,000 cars in the recall or notification = 0.00526%. That's a VERY small amount of "problems". Even it it was 2,000, that would be 0.0526%. Doesn't seem like a big "problem", looking at the numbers.
I still say it is a gross stupidity problem. Follow the directions, and you won't have any problems. Funny, no one responded to my post about my old Mazda that had the floor mat cause the accelerator to get stuck down. :confuse:
Let's just say it was as much as 200. 200/3,800,000 cars in the recall or notification = 0.00526%.
I am sure that is exactly how Toyota looked at it until a high profile cop got killed in a brand new Lexus loaner. Ford has done it, Chrysler has done it, GM has done it. Now Toyota has done it. The number is small enough that they can bully most of the customers and pay off a few. That is a lot cheaper than redesigning a system they use in a dozen models. There will always be people that believe the sun rises and sets with Toyota. They would never do anything so underhanded. Time will tell.
I am sure the NHTSA will be cautious in pointing a finger after the Audi fiasco a few years back.
my old Mazda that had the floor mat cause the accelerator to get stuck down.
Our 1990 Mazda 626 had a different accelerator problem. If you rested your foot against the right side when pushing the accelerator your shoe sole would get hung up on the edge of the plastic shroud, not allowing you to let off on the gas. It was a poor design by Mazda IMO. I got used to keeping my foot off that shroud.
Good. My point exactly. Your 626 had a poor design, and so did my 323. We were using them as per the directions, and they had these huge safety issues. Now, these two vehicles had true safety defects (and no recalls, lawsuits, etc). Agree?
Now my Camrys - I am using them per the directions (use the hooks, and only one mat). Since I am using them per the directions, it is not, and will not, cause a safety issue. That's the difference, the old Mazdas were a problem, even using them as directed, the Toyotas are not a problem, so long as you use them as directed (and/or use common sense!)
>Let's just say it was as much as 200. 200/3,800,000 cars in the recall or notification = 0.00526%. That's a VERY small amount of "problems".
The same diminishing logic has been used to minimize problems with cars that have a "popular" reputation in the past here on the forums. So let's use logic. Suppose that only a small percentage of people get motivated enough to bring up a perceived or experienced problem at the dealership (where they are told it's their fault somehow) or to post a perceived or experienced problem on the NHSTA website. Suppose only 1 out of 1000 or more is registered. It's a much bigger problem.
Now that's a very small amount of "problems."
Of course, if it's your car and your family or you are injured or killed, it's a much bigger problem. It's like a recession and losing jobs: if it's the neighbor it's not as important as if it's your job.
Again we're blaming the driver/owner. Same thing was done about the sludge problem which many suppress or minimize. Same thing is done with the hesitation problems that went through the Toyota cars over a short period of years; that transmission lag machts nichts unless it's your butt not accelerating in the merge lane for two seconds in rush hour traffic.
I realize people wish to minimize problems with their favored brand. So just as in some other situtations, reverse the players here. Suppose this were a GM car model experiencing this problem. How would the posters here on Edmunds be posting? Would they be relishing laying it on? Stating how they'll never own another Toyota GM for the rest of their life? Would they be posting about how they've been doing this for years and getting by and now they're caught and trying to spin their way out of responsiblity?
You've obviously never had a clutch cable fail approaching an intersection. That made for an interesting second or two. Fortunately it's easy to select neutral without using the clutch once you come to terms with the fact that despite the clutch pedal being on the floor nothing is happening.
Can't speak for all cars but here is what happens if you try to leave a 2006 Lexus LS while leaving the smart key inside. 1. There is a continuous very shrill tone that sounds and won't stop until you retrieve the key. 2. If you leave the smart key inside the car you cannot lock the doors.
On occasion my wife, who keeps her smartkey to my car in her purse, has tried to leave her purse in the car when we exit. Can't do it. Both of the above responses happen.
Also on a couple of occasions, after playing golf, I have forgotten to retrieve my smart key from my golf bag. After putting the bag in the trunk and closing it, here comes the shrill tone. The good thing about this is that it is virtually impossible to lock yourself out of the car because if the key is anywhere but somewhere on your person you cannot lock the car.
The hesitation problems were real, and they were not caused by operators doing not-so-intelligent things. This was a Toyota Corp. error. The hesitation problems were corrected by a reprogramming of the ECM. I never said there was no problem with this one - there definitely was.
Sludge - some will debate this forever, and there is another forum for this. Most say this was operator error (mechanics I've spoken with and owners I know), but go to the other forum for this - not here.
Floormat issue - a few drivers (or dealers) doing not-so-intelligent things. The only reason this got so big was ONE incident, and the fault was the dealer doing a really dumb thing by not following directions and common sense.
I bet there were many complaints to NHTSA about Audi 5000 sudden acceleration, especially after CBS "proved" that something was wrong with the car. In the end, NHTSA determined the problem was "pedal misapplication," that is, stepping on the accelerator instead of the brake pedal. Audi almost went out of business in the US over this issue.
Back to the floormats, NHTSA has stated that the problem appears to occur when the gas pedal gets hung up on a groove in the all-weather mat, when the mat isn't secured by at least one of the hooks. But maybe Toyota will have to raise the gas pedal of all the affected cars for those who don't use the hooks, for whatever reason.
Not well said. >Most say this was operator error Most say there are design problems, else the sludge would continue with current motors because the operators would still be doing the same errors in auto matinenance. But save that for the other forum.
think about why gas pedal and brake pedal are different shapes, the brake pedal being horizontal and the gas pedal vertical in design. why is the gas pedal always on the right, at least in a lhd vehicle? these are all to provide a large safety margin.
You've made several interesting points, even though I don't always agree, so I'll reply.
I drive a manual trans - a quick peek at the pedals reveals the brake pedal is the smallest and is positioned in the middle. Without a doubt it's the hardest to reach. The gas is all the way right and not only biggest but also easiest to reach since it's a straight shot for the right foot, plus the center tunnel leads your foot right to it.
So at least with a M/T car that doesn't apply at all.
Driving is not a right, it is a privilege. We all went to driving school and had to pass a test to prove we had enough skill to get one.
Though you'd swear some of these folks on the road got theirs over the phone!
i checked 2 of my cars, and the brake pedal is larger (area wise) than the gas pedal in both. being automatics, they only have to pedals.
no doubt, the NHTSA number is very low. most people wouldn't even know that they could file a complaint, or even if they did, know the process. other's were probably not investigated with that cause in mind.
i'm sure you wouldn't be happy if you exceeded the 7200 limit by few rpm's by mistake and the engine blew up. you expect a larger operational safety margin.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I know. You said mom leaves her handbag in the car with her smart key in it. Unless mom is stone deaf she would know instantly that the key is inside the car as she tries to leave because of the siren going off.
Your whole premise is absurd anyway because mom could much more easily leave her keys and kids in the car with a conventional key, lock herself out, and not be able to even reach the kids, no matter what happens.
They did make a change to make them more tolerant of neglect - no debate about that. Also, they reduced the change intervals to 5,000, so that when some people neglect the maintenance schedule, it doesn't damage the engine as fast. End of Story, but very similar to not using the hooks for your floormats!
From the Camry owner's manual: "Secure the driver's floor mat using the hooks provided. CAUTION: When inserting the driver's floormat, observe the following precautions. Failure to do so may result in the floor mat slipping and interfering with the movement of the pedals during driving, resulting in an accident. Make sure the floor mat is properly placed on the vehicle carpet and the correct side faces upward. Do not place floor mats on the top of existing mats."
you really think the same people that not follow the oil maintenance schedule are going to open the owner's manual to read up on proper floor mat installation? that's is a good one. :P
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
We have been forcing design changes on the automakers since at least the early 1960s when a few idiots did not know how to drive and rolled their Corvairs. Seems like Toyota was able to design a decent accelerator pedal prior to the ones that are killing people. The accelerator in my 07 Sequoia has enough room for a couple carpets and a rubber floor mat. Why did they change a perfectly usable design when it was working? I would say the ignorant dummies are Toyota engineers that make changes to systems that were working well. Or was it part of their cost cutting the last few years?
Your Sequoia is a much bigger vehicle and probably has a larger footwell with more room for the pedal assemblies? Plus, being heavily based on the Tundra pickup, it probably has more room for those jobsites with guys wearing boots.
I test drove a V6 RAV4 a few years back and the believe the pedal placement was also higher up off the floor as well.
I know that in my '05 Elantra, our son with his size 13-14 feet could not easily work the pedals. That water ski foot of his could cover the gas pedal and still touch the brake pedal. Hence his knickname, "Sasquatch".
Suppose one of your kids or another kid in the neighborhood found out the combination, or the electronics malfunctioned, or a sonic boom could cause the door to open, or a bird pecking on the keypad opened the door. A disaster waiting to happen.
Very poor engineering. Didn't Ford learn their lesson with all those roll overs? Ford should recall all vehicles with a keypad immediately because it is always possible that something could go wrong !!
>They did make a change to make them more tolerant of neglect - no debate about that. Also, they reduced the change intervals to 5,000, so that when some people neglect the maintenance schedule, it doesn't damage the engine as fast. End of story.
Not sure it's the end of story. Many people who didn't extend changes (althought within Toyota's 10K) and who had changes done at dealers had trouble in the end. But I appreciate your being polite and having a dialogue on the topic. End of story. Speaking of abuse: A friend drove her van back to visit last weekend. When I checked her oil and asked when's her next oil change..., she started calculating and checked. I think she's near 10K on the oil instead of a 5K oil change, and I don't think it's synthetic. Talk about abuse. Her Chrysler is not prone to sludge.
Well, Toyota is Number One AND they're making tons of mistakes.
I was really shaken by the interior of the Toyota Camry that I saw at the 2008 autoshow. It looked REALLY cheap. Toyota was chasing volume and sacrificing quality to keep prices down... and, man, did it show. I always worry that if they're saving money on the stuff you can see, what are they doing with the stuff you can't see?
I ran into this with Acura back in the late 90's. I'd had 3 Integras and when I bought the 4th in 97 it was a shock. A ton of little cost savings things - Dual horns turned in one horn. The chip in the dash clock was cheap and lost a minute every few weeks. The reception in the radio was weak compared to the car's older brother. The upholstry was showing wear at 10K miles. I dumped the car at 20K miles and haven't been back to Acura....even though they look really nice now.
Hubris is a dangerous disease. You think that you've got the world by the tail and no one will notice you cutting a few corners. Where have we heard that story before?
The CEO for Toyota says he's recognized and made a pretty astounding (even for the Japanese who like this sort of stuff) apology speech the other day. However, talking and doing are different and what actually happens with Toyota remains to be seen.
i'm sure you wouldn't be happy if you exceeded the 7200 limit by few rpm's by mistake and the engine blew up. you expect a larger operational safety margin.
I would be the only person on earth to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and accept 100% of the blame myself for being a cheapskate and getting a $0.99 plastic floor mat instead of an OE rubber mats with anchors and then installing it incorrectly.
The funny thing is I did buy rubber mats for my Mazda Miata - the instructions are abundantly clear - don't pile up two them, use the anchors, yadda yadda.
You'd have to make several mistakes for this to happen:
* choose non-OE mats * beyond that, choose low quality non-custom fit mats (i.e. not MacNeil) * proceed to install those cheap mats incorrectly * fail to take evasive action * disable your car's rev limiter so the engine blows up
Modern engines have rev limiters and would not blow the engine - you'd have plenty of time to shut it off.
The CEO for Toyota says he's recognized and made a pretty astounding (even for the Japanese who like this sort of stuff) apology speech the other day. However, talking and doing are different and what actually happens with Toyota remains to be seen.
Toyota is at a crossroads. They can keep getting more mediocre and have a bunch of mistakes, like GM and C did. Or they can get their s*** together quickly and not take 30 years to fix the problems. If they react quickly they will be ok. If they don't then they, too, will head down the road of GM and C -- it will just take a long while. Reputations destroyed are hard to rebuild.
i lock my keys in the car pretty often and on purpose. just use the keypad combination to get back in.
Is it the manufacturer's fault if a child drives away in your car? All they'd have to do is observe you entering the passcode.
What about a thief who breaks a window? Does your insurance company know you take these unnecesary risks?
If it's stolen, I don't even think your insurance should have to pay you, this is simply negligent.
He also wrote:
you really think the same people that not follow the oil maintenance schedule are going to open the owner's manual to read up on proper floor mat installation?
Yes, Toyota added an idiot light to remind people to change their own. Because there are lots of idiots out there.
You know what's reall funny, though? Since they've done that, no sludge. Coincidence? Or idiot-proof?
Maybe they need to add a warning that reminds you that you've left your keys in the car. I'm sure if something happens, you'll blame them for it. Or would you be honest and tell your insurance company you intentionally left the keys inside? Why not leave the crooks a crisp $20 bill for gas while you're at it?
Then Gary wrote:
Seems like Toyota was able to design a decent accelerator pedal prior to the ones that are killing people
Watch our for those miscreant gas pedals, folks, they come at you like the trees in Night of the Living Dead and murder you mercilessly!
The pedals aren't killing anyone. Some dope buys a cheap ill-fitting mat without anchors, installs it improperly, and it's the pedal's fault? C'mon...
Reminds me of this story by a Chevy Blazer owner who was in a rollover accident. He was looking for an SUV with a lower center of gravity.
Long story short, the guy swerved to miss a mail box, and the Blazer rolled on its side. He actually told it as if it was the combined fault of the Blazer and the mail box.
As if some miscreant mail box jumped out in the middle of the road and tried to kill him, and he had to avoid it.
HELLO?
It was driver inattention 100% at fault, not some mail box. He was veering off the road, and had to make an emergency manuever to avoid the mail box he was about to hit, and the tall SUV he chose to buy rolled.
Do we need yellow warning signs on mail boxes that say "DO NOT HIT".
Or maybe not - maybe the sign should say "HIT ME JUST DON'T SWERVE SUDDENLY".
This is America, hire a lawyer and blame...the mail box! Of course! :P
All I remember is that we got this hideous yellow warning signs on the passenger visor (as if the passenger is the one driving) telling us not to drive trucks the same way we drive cars. More idiot proofing gone awry.
I joke about this but car makers do have technology to see if you're paying attention to the road and warn you if you are not.
Comments
I'm thinking that Toyota might have done the same analysis as Ford with their gas tank in that it would cost more to redesign than to simply pay off any lawsuits that could occur with their current pedal design.
Would a redesign admit guilt on Toyota's part?
BTW, I agree with your point regarding the ladder. They should've also had the warning printed in Cantonese considering its probable point of origin.
Would a redesign admit guilt on Toyota's part?
I'm sure liability lawyers would see it that way.
I was looking at some ski goggles the other day and they had a protective film on them. They were actually labeled "Remove Before Use"!
Next up will be labels on the start/stop button - hold 3 seconds to turn off stuff.
And I can see a situation where a 4 year old is sitting on the gas pedal while the 6 year old sibling is playing with the gearshift, and Dad bends over to take a pebble out of a tire, causing the key fob in his pants pocket to activate. Off to the races!
I'm still waiting to see if the 100+ incidents are attributable solely to the mats, to the pedal design, or to some drive by wire issue. Or some combination of factors.
Steve, you're a host here, aren't you supposed to be setting an example and keeping it real? The fob has to be INSIDE the car in order to start the engine and pressing a button on the fob will not start the engine, even when the fob is inside the car.
This scenario seems plausible to me since I'm always locking my Subaru unintentionally when I'm messing around in my garage, if I have my fob in my pocket. So it doesn't seem much of a stretch to think of a situation where the ignition gets confused and thinks the key is in the proper place (or in range) and cranks the car when the button is pushed by the 6 year old.
I am going to take a wild guess and say I have been in more high end luxury makes with smart keys then anyone else who regularly posts here.
I didn't say that originally but explorer4 said it in another thread and I thought it was probably true.
Off the top of my head.
Volvo, Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Land Rover, Audi, Bentley, Infiniti and Acura. The only Ferrari, a 2006 F430 with Super Fast F1 Transmission, I have driven did not have a Smart key.
The smart key proximity sensor is very, very accurate. You can be standing at the driver's side door with the key and someone at the passenger side door won't be able to open the door unless you unlock all the doors.
The key knows when it is inside the car and if you are holding it outside the car when it is running on most models there is an alert of some kind. The last Lexus I had with a smart key made a very loud beeping noise if you held the key even a few inches outside the window or moonroof.
I had the car at a customers house and the daughter had the key in her pocket and got out of the car. It stated beeping very loudly so I showed her how the key knew if it was in the car or not.
Some Acuras I have been in also make noise and a warming message shows up in the instrument cluster.
There are two different ranges for the key. One range for opening the doors and another for starting the car. I guess if someone had their key in their back pocket and was sitting on the open window sill of a car maybe someone could start it. Your foot would still have to be on the brake though and I would expect the moment the car started the driver would be aware of it. You can't start the car in gear so first they kid/s would have to start it then get the car into gear before the person holding the key could get back in the car.
Pretty unlikely I think.
The Prius smart key like many other vehicles has two versions. The first version is only some what smart. You have to put the key in a slot to start the car and have to hit the button on the fob to open the door. Most brands charge you a few hundred, or if you are BMW and probably Merc and Audi too over a 1,000 dollars, to get the full smart key with key less start and touch open doors.
I could see the manufacturers adding a third redundancy and using a seat sensor to tell whether someone is sitting in the car (while applying the brake).
And yeah, the Prius key had to go in a slot before the button would work.
(and don't forget that you can point a fob at your chin and double the range :P ).
While I can't say for the vehicle in question, I've done this many times to try and identify whether vibrations are drive line or suspension related. As far as the motor blowing up, most manufacturer's have rev limiters built in to the programming as to avoid such catastrophic failures. Try taking any vehicle past redline and you'll see what I mean.
"Smart" key in my pocket. 2 inquisitive toddlers in the car. The 4 year old is on the floor of the driver's side, where, having gotten bored pulling the mat out of the clip and rolling it up, he plays race car with his back against the seat bottom and has one leg on the brake, and the other flooring the gas.
Older sister is pressing the Easy button (she loves the Staples ads), and keeps kicking the gear shift.
The windows are down. I lean against the car trying to put my snowboard in the rocketbox on top and the fob in my jacket pocket is in range of the start button.
Fortunately, just at the last minute I happen to glance at the 18 paragraph bright yellow warning label glued to the roof (and the hood, and the door) and back off, saving everyone from near disaster.
The handbag is more likely....
OK, enough of playing devil's advocate. :shades:
these are all to provide a large safety margin.
You'd think people would notice bunched up floor mats, but on the other hand everyone speculated electronic gremlins in the Audi 5000 but could never come up with anything. Its just strange, but it certainly seems to argue caution with electronic ignition and no key. Personally, I think I'll stay away from vehicles that don't require a key in the ignition as a back up way to turn off a runaway vehicle.
Let's just say it was as much as 200. 200/3,800,000 cars in the recall or notification = 0.00526%. That's a VERY small amount of "problems". Even it it was 2,000, that would be 0.0526%. Doesn't seem like a big "problem", looking at the numbers.
I still say it is a gross stupidity problem. Follow the directions, and you won't have any problems. Funny, no one responded to my post about my old Mazda that had the floor mat cause the accelerator to get stuck down. :confuse:
I am sure that is exactly how Toyota looked at it until a high profile cop got killed in a brand new Lexus loaner. Ford has done it, Chrysler has done it, GM has done it. Now Toyota has done it. The number is small enough that they can bully most of the customers and pay off a few. That is a lot cheaper than redesigning a system they use in a dozen models. There will always be people that believe the sun rises and sets with Toyota. They would never do anything so underhanded. Time will tell.
I am sure the NHTSA will be cautious in pointing a finger after the Audi fiasco a few years back.
Our 1990 Mazda 626 had a different accelerator problem. If you rested your foot against the right side when pushing the accelerator your shoe sole would get hung up on the edge of the plastic shroud, not allowing you to let off on the gas. It was a poor design by Mazda IMO. I got used to keeping my foot off that shroud.
Now my Camrys - I am using them per the directions (use the hooks, and only one mat). Since I am using them per the directions, it is not, and will not, cause a safety issue. That's the difference, the old Mazdas were a problem, even using them as directed, the Toyotas are not a problem, so long as you use them as directed (and/or use common sense!)
The same diminishing logic has been used to minimize problems with cars that have a "popular" reputation in the past here on the forums. So let's use logic. Suppose that only a small percentage of people get motivated enough to bring up a perceived or experienced problem at the dealership (where they are told it's their fault somehow) or to post a perceived or experienced problem on the NHSTA website. Suppose only 1 out of 1000 or more is registered. It's a much bigger problem.
Now that's a very small amount of "problems."
Of course, if it's your car and your family or you are injured or killed, it's a much bigger problem. It's like a recession and losing jobs: if it's the neighbor it's not as important as if it's your job.
Again we're blaming the driver/owner. Same thing was done about the sludge problem which many suppress or minimize. Same thing is done with the hesitation problems that went through the Toyota cars over a short period of years; that transmission lag machts nichts unless it's your butt not accelerating in the merge lane for two seconds in rush hour traffic.
I realize people wish to minimize problems with their favored brand. So just as in some other situtations, reverse the players here. Suppose this were a GM car model experiencing this problem. How would the posters here on Edmunds be posting? Would they be relishing laying it on? Stating how they'll never own another
ToyotaGM for the rest of their life? Would they be posting about how they've been doing this for years and getting by and now they're caught and trying to spin their way out of responsiblity?2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Now that's a solution! I even recall cranking my motor that wouldn't start into a parking space using the starter motor. Manuals rock.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
On occasion my wife, who keeps her smartkey to my car in her purse, has tried to leave her purse in the car when we exit. Can't do it. Both of the above responses happen.
Also on a couple of occasions, after playing golf, I have forgotten to retrieve my smart key from my golf bag. After putting the bag in the trunk and closing it, here comes the shrill tone. The good thing about this is that it is virtually impossible to lock yourself out of the car because if the key is anywhere but somewhere on your person you cannot lock the car.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The hesitation problems were real, and they were not caused by operators doing not-so-intelligent things. This was a Toyota Corp. error. The hesitation problems were corrected by a reprogramming of the ECM. I never said there was no problem with this one - there definitely was.
Sludge - some will debate this forever, and there is another forum for this. Most say this was operator error (mechanics I've spoken with and owners I know), but go to the other forum for this - not here.
Floormat issue - a few drivers (or dealers) doing not-so-intelligent things. The only reason this got so big was ONE incident, and the fault was the dealer doing a really dumb thing by not following directions and common sense.
I bet there were many complaints to NHTSA about Audi 5000 sudden acceleration, especially after CBS "proved" that something was wrong with the car. In the end, NHTSA determined the problem was "pedal misapplication," that is, stepping on the accelerator instead of the brake pedal. Audi almost went out of business in the US over this issue.
Back to the floormats, NHTSA has stated that the problem appears to occur when the gas pedal gets hung up on a groove in the all-weather mat, when the mat isn't secured by at least one of the hooks. But maybe Toyota will have to raise the gas pedal of all the affected cars for those who don't use the hooks, for whatever reason.
>Most say this was operator error
Most say there are design problems, else the sludge would continue with current motors because the operators would still be doing the same errors in auto matinenance. But save that for the other forum.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
these are all to provide a large safety margin.
You've made several interesting points, even though I don't always agree, so I'll reply.
I drive a manual trans - a quick peek at the pedals reveals the brake pedal is the smallest and is positioned in the middle. Without a doubt it's the hardest to reach. The gas is all the way right and not only biggest but also easiest to reach since it's a straight shot for the right foot, plus the center tunnel leads your foot right to it.
So at least with a M/T car that doesn't apply at all.
Driving is not a right, it is a privilege. We all went to driving school and had to pass a test to prove we had enough skill to get one.
Though you'd swear some of these folks on the road got theirs over the phone!
What % did that?
Oh, about 0.00526% per mcdawgg's estimate.
no doubt, the NHTSA number is very low. most people wouldn't even know that they could file a complaint, or even if they did, know the process.
other's were probably not investigated with that cause in mind.
i'm sure you wouldn't be happy if you exceeded the 7200 limit by few rpm's by mistake and the engine blew up. you expect a larger operational safety margin.
Your whole premise is absurd anyway because mom could much more easily leave her keys and kids in the car with a conventional key, lock herself out, and not be able to even reach the kids, no matter what happens.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
just use the keypad combination to get back in.
From the Camry owner's manual: "Secure the driver's floor mat using the hooks provided. CAUTION: When inserting the driver's floormat, observe the following precautions. Failure to do so may result in the floor mat slipping and interfering with the movement of the pedals during driving, resulting in an accident.
Make sure the floor mat is properly placed on the vehicle carpet and the correct side faces upward. Do not place floor mats on the top of existing mats."
that's is a good one. :P
I test drove a V6 RAV4 a few years back and the believe the pedal placement was also higher up off the floor as well.
Suppose one of your kids or another kid in the neighborhood found out the combination, or the electronics malfunctioned, or a sonic boom could cause the door to open, or a bird pecking on the keypad opened the door. A disaster waiting to happen.
Very poor engineering. Didn't Ford learn their lesson with all those roll overs? Ford should recall all vehicles with a keypad immediately because it is always possible that something could go wrong !!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Not sure it's the end of story. Many people who didn't extend changes (althought within Toyota's 10K) and who had changes done at dealers had trouble in the end. But I appreciate your being polite and having a dialogue on the topic. End of story. Speaking of abuse: A friend drove her van back to visit last weekend. When I checked her oil and asked when's her next oil change..., she started calculating and checked. I think she's near 10K on the oil instead of a 5K oil change, and I don't think it's synthetic. Talk about abuse. Her Chrysler is not prone to sludge.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I was really shaken by the interior of the Toyota Camry that I saw at the 2008 autoshow. It looked REALLY cheap. Toyota was chasing volume and sacrificing quality to keep prices down... and, man, did it show. I always worry that if they're saving money on the stuff you can see, what are they doing with the stuff you can't see?
I ran into this with Acura back in the late 90's. I'd had 3 Integras and when I bought the 4th in 97 it was a shock. A ton of little cost savings things - Dual horns turned in one horn. The chip in the dash clock was cheap and lost a minute every few weeks. The reception in the radio was weak compared to the car's older brother. The upholstry was showing wear at 10K miles. I dumped the car at 20K miles and haven't been back to Acura....even though they look really nice now.
Hubris is a dangerous disease. You think that you've got the world by the tail and no one will notice you cutting a few corners. Where have we heard that story before?
The CEO for Toyota says he's recognized and made a pretty astounding (even for the Japanese who like this sort of stuff) apology speech the other day. However, talking and doing are different and what actually happens with Toyota remains to be seen.
I would be the only person on earth to take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and accept 100% of the blame myself for being a cheapskate and getting a $0.99 plastic floor mat instead of an OE rubber mats with anchors and then installing it incorrectly.
The funny thing is I did buy rubber mats for my Mazda Miata - the instructions are abundantly clear - don't pile up two them, use the anchors, yadda yadda.
You'd have to make several mistakes for this to happen:
* choose non-OE mats
* beyond that, choose low quality non-custom fit mats (i.e. not MacNeil)
* proceed to install those cheap mats incorrectly
* fail to take evasive action
* disable your car's rev limiter so the engine blows up
Modern engines have rev limiters and would not blow the engine - you'd have plenty of time to shut it off.
Toyota is at a crossroads. They can keep getting more mediocre and have a bunch of mistakes, like GM and C did. Or they can get their s*** together quickly and not take 30 years to fix the problems. If they react quickly they will be ok. If they don't then they, too, will head down the road of GM and C -- it will just take a long while. Reputations destroyed are hard to rebuild.
i lock my keys in the car pretty often and on purpose.
just use the keypad combination to get back in.
Is it the manufacturer's fault if a child drives away in your car? All they'd have to do is observe you entering the passcode.
What about a thief who breaks a window? Does your insurance company know you take these unnecesary risks?
If it's stolen, I don't even think your insurance should have to pay you, this is simply negligent.
He also wrote:
you really think the same people that not follow the oil maintenance schedule are going to open the owner's manual to read up on proper floor mat installation?
Yes, Toyota added an idiot light to remind people to change their own. Because there are lots of idiots out there.
You know what's reall funny, though? Since they've done that, no sludge. Coincidence? Or idiot-proof?
Maybe they need to add a warning that reminds you that you've left your keys in the car. I'm sure if something happens, you'll blame them for it. Or would you be honest and tell your insurance company you intentionally left the keys inside? Why not leave the crooks a crisp $20 bill for gas while you're at it?
Then Gary wrote:
Seems like Toyota was able to design a decent accelerator pedal prior to the ones that are killing people
Watch our for those miscreant gas pedals, folks, they come at you like the trees in Night of the Living Dead and murder you mercilessly!
The pedals aren't killing anyone. Some dope buys a cheap ill-fitting mat without anchors, installs it improperly, and it's the pedal's fault? C'mon...
Reminds me of this story by a Chevy Blazer owner who was in a rollover accident. He was looking for an SUV with a lower center of gravity.
Long story short, the guy swerved to miss a mail box, and the Blazer rolled on its side. He actually told it as if it was the combined fault of the Blazer and the mail box.
As if some miscreant mail box jumped out in the middle of the road and tried to kill him, and he had to avoid it.
HELLO?
It was driver inattention 100% at fault, not some mail box. He was veering off the road, and had to make an emergency manuever to avoid the mail box he was about to hit, and the tall SUV he chose to buy rolled.
Do we need yellow warning signs on mail boxes that say "DO NOT HIT".
Or maybe not - maybe the sign should say "HIT ME JUST DON'T SWERVE SUDDENLY".
This is America, hire a lawyer and blame...the mail box! Of course! :P
All I remember is that we got this hideous yellow warning signs on the passenger visor (as if the passenger is the one driving) telling us not to drive trucks the same way we drive cars. More idiot proofing gone awry.
I joke about this but car makers do have technology to see if you're paying attention to the road and warn you if you are not.
Darwin was right.