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I mean, you live pretty close to DC, right?
Do any of you honestly believe that some 'computer glitch' can cause a car to go full throttle while simultaneously defeating the ignition shut- off AND the braking system, AND the ability to shift out of drive or into neutral? Do you really think Toyota or any other manufacturer would try to hide something that drastic, if it were possible? I think maybe you've watched too many sci-fi movies if you can believe that.
I will challenge any of you to give me any car, that I cant bring to a stop while the throttle is stuck wide open, within seconds. And I am NOT saying that in a panic situation I would have the 'wits' to handle it quickly and safely. Unfortunately, we are all human. And the hard truth is we screw up. A lot. Especially under pressure. Its tragic that people have died because something as simple as a floormat caused a stuck throttle. 'Human error' isnt a copout. Its the truth.
Ive owned everything from a 3 cylinder SAAB, multiple Mustangs from the 'good' years, numerous Japanese rigs, SUVs, including the notorious Suzuki that was supposed to roll over in a mild side wind.. Currently own and drive a 68 Fairlane conv (for 33 years), a 82 Jeep Scrambler, and a couple recent model year Nissans. Not relevant to the discussion, just added to try to add to my credibility here. I may be new but Im not a scammer.
Sure, why not? I have worked on computers since 1971 when you loaded the programs by hand or with paper ribbons. The more complex they get the more crazy things that I saw happen. First we know for a fact that the car in question was going 100 MPH + by witnesses and the 911 call. We also know he tried to use the brakes to the extent that they were either on fire or smoking profusely, this according to several witnesses and the 911 call. We do know if he was able to shut off the engine the steering wheel would lock and the likely same result. So that leaves me with ONE nagging question. Did he try to put the car into neutral. And what happened when and if he tried to do that? WOT with ineffective brakes leaves only shifting into neutral. Does the Lexus have an over ride that does not allow shifting while at full throttle. I really have to believe the floor mat caused the WOT and probably made the brakes ineffective. If that proves to be the case it was probably not any kind of computer glitch.
If Lexus loses customers over this, they only have themselves to blame. It will give Audi a chance to gain back some lost customers from their WOT debacle.
My money is most definitely on the mats, but I will allow the possibility that it was something else.....and we will probably never know, because this won't be news by the time they conclude the investigation.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I wondered if they had one of those boxes and if it survived. The investigators have not said anything publicly concerning a black box.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Bob
I'll say it again - I believe a throttle-by-wire system can fail, but to have a completely separate hydraulic brake system fail at the exact same time is science fiction.
lately, i have spent some time looking at for sale ads with pictures of the ES, looking for the pedals. there was a picture of the pedals posted a while back, but the ones i see don't look like those.
imidazol97, "Toyota in 2009" #2853, 29 Sep 2009 2:49 pm
Toyota Launches Safety Campaign; 3.8 Million Models May Be Affected (Edmunds Daily)
It's going to be hard to sweep almost 4 million cars under the rug.
As a side benefit, hopefully it'll enourage other people (like me), to check the floor mats in their cars, whatever they drive.
No, I don't think it means condemning Toyota to automotive Hell. Actually, I was just wondering when this bomb was going to be taken apart and dimisserized.
And we basically figured it out right here on Edmunds, too, huh?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
A little history:
Back in 2008, Toyota issued a recall on the all-weather floor mats in 2007-2008 Camrys. Well, I bought a set in early 2007, and the instructions specifically said to remove the old floor mats and put these in place and be sure to use the clips. Guess what, I still have these old mats, and they don't move IF you use the clips (and this also means that you don't put them on top of the existing mats). Simple, right?
Now, someone (the dealer in this case!) screws up big time and puts mats ON TOP of the existing ones, without the clips (of course), and now Toyota is recalling just about every car. Give me a break! If I was Toyota, I'd be thinking about going into another business right now, not because they don't know how to build excellent cars, but because people are going WAY overboard about things. What's next, if I go out and jump in the Lake Huron without knowing how to swim and without a life jacket, can I force the government to put up a 20ft high wall around the entire lake? :sick:
The Lexus dealer was at fault here, not Toyota, so just give the relatives a huge amount of money and that's that. I do feel bad for the family, don't get me wrong, but don't force Toyota and every other maker to put out huge expensive recalls for nothing. You gotta draw the line somewhere! I guarantee that I can find things like this in any car if I try. I could rewire my cruise control switches to stay on and never cancel, even if I hit the brakes. So should they issue a recall for this and get rid of cruise control? I know this is extreme example, but I think you get my drift!
Photo here.
I am speaking from first-hand experience.
"In the event owners choose not to remove their floor mat, Toyota strongly recommends that they ensure that the correct floor mat is being used, that it is properly installed and secured, that it is not flipped over with bottom-side up, and that one floor mat is not stacked over another. Information on proper floor mat installation can be found on http://www.toyota.com."
One thing you can say, Toyota is acting like J&J and the Tylenol mess. They're moving relatively fast to get the word out and get a solution out there. Not sweeping it under the rug, in other words.
Looking at the picture of the pedal, the problem is the pedal design takes it too close to the floor. I looked at the accelerator pedal in my cars and they are high enough from the horizontal floor to allow for mats.
Looks like poor engineering design. We'll blame the car owner for the problem because they put a mat in rather than blaming the design!!! Sounds like the sludge, I mean gel, issue.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't necessarily disagree, but I ask again: how much human stupidity should automakers be required to incorporate into their designs? This wasn't ONE mat creating a problem, it was TWO mats, one on top of the other. Pile enough mats in your Buick, and they would block the accelerator too. What if the driver wants to keep their groceries in the driver's footwell on the trip from the store? Should automakers have to account for that too?
If we go down the road of designing cars for maximum human stupidity, cars are really going to suck. Cars are complex and potentially dangerous machines to operate, and people should be required to take their operation seriously, including reading the manual and taking appropriate care and precautions.
And BTW, I disagree that this is the same thing as the sludging issue. That was in an area of the car (under the hood) where the owner had no chance to intervene and "be stupid", so that was definitely a poor design that led to some oil cooking.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Indeed. You already see what happens these days when buying a ladder. There are stickers all over the place on them telling you of 8 gazillion ways you can hurt yourself on a ladder. What's next warning labels on shoes "May be fatal if used to step in front of a train."
It's bad enough when I flip the visor down and there's the dumb air bag warning. Makes me want to just stare into the sun instead.
> but I ask again: how much human stupidity should automakers be required to incorporate into their designs?
I am amazed at how much anti-stupidity equipment is already in our cars. I compare a 1968 GTO to current offerings. We have ABS. We have stability control viewed by some (maybe appropriately) as a requirement and lambasting a car they don't like because it doesn't have stability control on all its models. We have rev limiters. Automatic headlamsps. Radar braking and cruise control. We have air bags for those stupid enough to hit things and once again some criticize cars they don't like if they don't have airbags in 9 locations--I view the front airbags as 90% of the airbag need.
I appreciate your point. The reality is there were some things wrong with the engine and in some cases it occurred on its own, people changing the oil used lesser grades of oil, and in others the people owning the car didn't change the oil by the 7500 mile mark. So in a way the owner can contribute. But I understand your point that owners piling on various mats especially in cold climates with snow and dirt in the winter like mine here in W. Ohio, didn't use good judgement.
If four mats were put under my driver's feet and they slid forward, they would keep the accelerator from going down. The bottom of the pedal clears the floor by several inches.
I see the grooves in my pedals need cleaning. I usually don't get down this low to view that area!
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If we go down the road of designing cars for maximum human stupidity, cars are really going to suck. Cars are complex and potentially dangerous machines to operate, and people should be required to take their operation seriously, including reading the manual and taking appropriate care and precautions. "
Exactly. Follow the directions, use only one mat, and use the clips to hold it in place. Then, you will NOT have any problems. I speak from experience here!
Like I said in another post, maybe they should put up a 20 ft high wall around Lake Huron so people that cannot swim and don't wear a life jacket will not drown?!?
Long, long ago, I had a non-Toyota that the floor mats could make the accelerator pedal stick down. I immediately bought one of those floor mat clips and never had a problem. Fortunately, cars now come with these clips - BUT you have to use them!!!
And mine was unhooked.
I don't think I've ever seen any floor mat clips, come to think of it.
(and no, we haven't considered renaming this discussion, "Brand problems swept under the mat" :P )
Thank you Kam 108. Here's a link to your post in the Edmunds Highlander forum from 2006.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef00024/3715!keywords=#MSG3715
Hmmm - there may be more
sharkbait in the waterevidence for attorneys to work with, than I originally thought.This may be a simple matter of too many mats vs. too-small brains, but it's not going to be cheap for Toyota to prove that in court.
Let the games begin!
By the way Gagrice - It seems very odd that 20 year old streets wouldn't be in your NAV system... my first guess would be that you might want to read the manual to see about any quirks in the format in which you enter information into the system. Mayflower street may really be N Mayflower street or S Mayflower street with with no plain "Mayflower street" entry etc. One way to see if the road is on the map is to drive to that location. If it shows you as being in a field, then take it to the dealer.
As for the homelink, I have that in my car (Not a Toyota, though).... It's good for probably 50 feet or so.It should be able to do better than 2 feet from the garage door. You might try putting a longer antenna on your garage door opener unit - on my Genie, it's just a piece of wire that's hanging down. You might check to see if yours is in a location that gives it a better signal path. Might help. Good luck!
This is about the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen!!! A massive recall because people are not following the directions and putting after mats on top of the existing mats!!
nippononly wrote:
how much human stupidity should automakers be required to incorporate into their designs?
The two of you summed it up pretty well.
It would be Toyota's fault if:
* they forgot to incorporate grommets in the carpeted mats
* they forgot to incorporate grommets in the rubber mats
* the hooks broke off or otherwise failed completely
* they failed to provide clear instructions.
None of those things are true!
That crash had a an aftermarket plastic mat with no holes that wasn't connected to any hooks at all, in fact they were placed over the existing hooks, making it blatantly obvious that they don't belong there.
This was human error 100%, Toyota 0%.
To remove all liability maybe Toyota should remove the throttle pedal completely!
Heck, toss out the clutch pedal while you're at it - put 3 brake pedals there. Put a 4th brake pedal in the passenger foot well, in cases of driver inattention.
Why not?
Texting while driving is CLEARLY Toyota's fault. (where's the roll eyes emotorcon)
They should design cars to compensate for human stupidity.
Which of these 3 does not belong?
1. Blame the grease monkey at the dealer for installing the mat incorrectly - DOH!
2. Blame the guy who purchased an aftermarket mat instead of Toyota OE - DUH!
3. Blame the manufacturer with the deepest pockets who had nothing to do with the aftermarket mat they did not even manufacture being installed incorrectly by a dealership they do not own or operate.
It's pretty clear to me.
And a point I meant to make, but forgot, lines back up this thread: In a car with a conventional key ignition, turning off the ignition will NOT lock the wheel! Only removing the key will do that. In all the push-button cars Ive been in (and Ive been trying this a lot lately, after getting involved in this post), pushing the ignition button once, while the car is running, TURNS THE CAR OFF! And again, it does not lock the steering wheel. Only opening the door and exiting the car does that. I hate the push-button technology. It seems to be one of those 'we can do it, so lets do it' type of things. (remember the talking cars of the 80s? Yeah, they did it, but what was the POINT?) I would expect that system to be less reliable than a conventional key ignition, but I still refuse to believe the multiple, unrelated failures that are supposedly to have caused that horrible Lexus crash.
when i checked a couple of my vehicles, you can easily fit half a dozen mats on top of each other and not contact the gas pedal.
our host pointed this out in post #422.
#429 shows pedals similar to what i have.
In short, when a car is ripped apart at high speed it's remarkable when it doesn't catch fire. Fuel systems use soft metal which bends and stretches so that mangled car stands a chance of not becoming a fireball. GM full size RWD cars for example were very good in that regard; a trooper showed me a pic of his '96Caprice cruiser after it was rear-ended at 100 mph by a Thunderbird. The trunk was gone yet the passenger compartment was intact; you could have opened the back door. No fire. A '96 Camry would become a crispy coffin with that impact.
btw, ten miles of that experiment will put a thousand or so miles worth of wear on the engine and its accessories. Hybrids can do it by using thousands of dollars worth of specialized hardware and design features.
"In September 2007, Toyota recalled an accessory all-weather floor mat sold for use in some 2007 and 2008 model year Lexus ES 350 and Toyota Camry vehicles because of similar problems."
NHTSA
I have never taken it back for the recall, because they will not cause any problems. They came with directions that said use the hooks and use only one mat, even back then. The accelerator does not contact the mat - it is at least an inch away throughout it's travel when secured with the hooks.
I can provide the recall notice, pictures, etc. if you still doubt.
From what I've seen on the internet, the new mats that replaced the ones that were recalled are shaped a little different, and cover less floor area. If I remember correctly, the theory back then was that they were designed so that if people did not use the hooks or stack up mats that it would not interfere with the pedal travel. I don't know, because I am using my original recalled mats correctly, so I don't have to worry about it.
Because the pedal doesn't come down to the floor, horizontal portion, like the Toyo pictured in NHTSA's picture, it would be next to impossible to get a mat to push against the accelerator and increase engine throttle. The mat would have to be very short front to rear and would have to be more than 1.5 inches thick.
Personally I think the design of the gas pedal and placement is faulty as shown in picture by NHTSA.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Communication%20&%20Consumer%20In- formation/Articles/Associated%20Files/Toyota_Mat_09.JPG
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That means the installation of the mat was "faulty", not the accelerator pedal.
The root cause is not using the hooks and/or placing mats on top of mats.
Sorry, this will be just one more thing that we ALL will end up paying extra for, no matter what car we drive.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The others all use suspended pedals, the main difference being the height from the horizontal part of the footwell varies. It was interesting though the Hyundai Sonata's placement looked like a dead ringer for the 2010 Camry. Some cars have mats that are more cut away from the gas pedal than others. All use retention hooks of some type to hold the mats in place.
Also I measured the accelerator pedal clearances on my previous generation (2004) Camry and on the new 2010 Camry. The distance from the pedal surface to the angled part of the floor was 4 inches for both the new and old model. However, the bottom edge of my pedal rests 3.5 inches above the mat, while the new model's rests only 2.5 inches above. When fully depressed, both pedals touch the floor.