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Comments
i just checked the distance between the bottom of the gas pedal and the distance between the pedal and the back of the firewall area on a couple of my cars.
basically, 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 inches for both measurements.
btw, since some other manufacturers don't have this issue, those brands won't be the ones paying.
Wanna bet? If Toyota has to make modifications (they are discussing putting in programming to not allow the accelerator and the brake to be pressed at the same time, which is possible due to the electronic throttles. You can be sure the NTSB or some other agency will require all makers to do this. You know the tire pressure monitoring systems? Same thing. You will pay for it.
I know other cars I've had in the past have had issues like this, one comes to mind (not a Toyota) that the mat slid up and made the accelerator stick down for a moment. I immediately went and bought some floor mat clips to solve the problem. All the new cars now have hooks, but you MUST use them!
When Toyota recalls 3.8 million vehicles and installs a decent accelerator. I was in the auto section at WalMart. They had a lot of universal rubber floor mats. They should be able to stick those into a vehicle without having to worry about the accelerator getting hung up because of Poor design. My 2007 Toyota Sequoia has plenty of room for several mats. I don't see letting Toyota off the hook on this one. They knew it was an issue several years ago and kept the same crappy design.
I think this issue fits this thread to a T. Toyota trying to sweep problems under the rug.
I bet you with a crappy aftermarket mat not secured and on top that it could move and interfere with the pedals on any car - it COULD happen. I had an old car years ago not a Toyota that this DID happen to me (no harm done, thankfully, but it could have been bad if I was in traffic, etc.)
Toyota issued a recall in 2008 for the all-weather floor mats, which are fine IF you use the hooks and don't put one mat on top of another. I should know - I have the supposedly bad mats, and they NEVER move (3 years experience with them). So I wouldn't say they are covering anything up - this was done with in cooperation with the NTSB.
This horrible accident was a dealer screw-up (the dealer's loaner car had the wrong mats, and they were on top of another, not hooked). Go after the dealer, they are at fault here. Due to it's high profile, this accident is just drawing tons of attention, and the witch hunt is on. Being #1 in anything, it seems people either hate you or love you, so Toyota is now the target of the haters. It's just a big witch hunt.
Finally, I sure hope you use the clips and don't stack up mats in your car - it's not safe!! Like I said, I have experienced this about 12 years ago.
Note that there's a safety advisory on the current problem. No recall will be issued until Toyota comes up with a fix that the NHTSA approves.
In that USA Today link, Toyota doesn't recommend paper mats either, since they can slide around. I bet all the "courtesy" paper mats the mechanics use will get tossed in the dumpster now.
And yeah, it is sort of fun to pick on number one.
I don't see any way an extra mat would interfer with the pedal on my leSabres. The design of the pedal and the placement are good designs and safe. It's going to go back to that pedal design and placement so that there is little clearance between the floor and the pedal in Toyotas.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You mean like not having kids near a door that might pop open on your mini van. Or don't get rear ended in a Pinto.
Your posts all sound like damage control for ToyLex. There have been several posters here over the last several years with Prius doing the same thing. And of course the zealots are out trying to make them feel like idiots. If the NHTSA has 102 complaints, you can bet there are 1000s that did not complain. It is sad that 5 people died before Toyota got nailed.
By the way all the rubber mats at Walmart did not have any holes. People are not used to having hooks for floor mats. I hate the big hook on my Sequoia. My foot gets caught getting out of the vehicle. Another safety hazard I should report to the NHTSA.
I find it would be impossible in my leSabres. Looks like GM has the engineering right for safety.
What is troubling about the Toyota problem is that some posters sound like they believe there is more to the problem than physical mat encroachment against the pedals; they sound like there's a software or computer problem.
I recall months or longer ago when some discussion was about recalls or TSBs and someone was pointing out that some recalls were for trivial things like Lexus' floor mat problem while other companies had recalls for "real" car problems... I note that the floor mat problem was a "real" problem after all. I regret so many accidents have occurred and people injured. I keep thinking about the shifting or acceleration lag problem that occurred with some Toyota Lexus and Avalone cars and really showed up in the Camrys. Some blame physical engineering problems in the transmission and others point to control/computer software.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No, he was only talking about floor mats. My heart breaks for the people who were killed and their friends and families but we should all take a little more personal responsibility for our own mistakes.
If his posts sound like damage control, yours sound like an ad for some ambulance chasing class action attorney.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
but what does sound odd is that the evet lasted many minutes, right? with a skilled driver at the wheel, doing every thing he could. But, in all that time, he never intentionally (or even accidnetally) moved the mat to dislodge it?
It obviously was loose enough to slide around, yo uwould think that he might have reached underneath to try and yank the gas pedal, or kicked at the mats.
But, maybe it was just moving too fast?
I used to have a car with mats that would slide forward and bunch up, but if anything, they eiter kept you from pressing down all the way on the pedal. I remember tugging them back with my foot a lot.
the real telling incident will be the first person that has a runaway car after they had their mats confiscated. ALso hard to believe that all 102 reported events (although some were probably pedal misapplication!) were using 2 sets of mats like that.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I will note an important contradiction in your argument.
First you say Toyota's design has to be fault-tolerant.
Then you say the cheap mats you can buy at Wal Mart - do NOT have to be fault-tolerant? That it's Toyota's job to compensate for the incompetency of others?
Why don't they put holes for anchors on those?
Better yet, why be so cheap in the first place? Buy an OE mat. They're not that expensive.
Why give the manfacturer of those cheap mats a pass, and blame Toyota?
Isn't that enabling the aftermarket manufacturers to keep making dangerous crap!?
Do you really think Toyota is at fault because {el cheapo carpets} sells a cheap non-OE mat? Why not go after {el cheapo carpets}?
You want to see a fault-tolerant aftermarket rubber mat? > MacNeil's Weather Tech mats.
Good quality, form-fitting, fully custom, and (GET THIS!) yes they include holes for anchors in their designs.
I just noticed an ad for them last night - Big Bold letters advertising SAFETY and highlighting those anchor holes.
Check it out:
http://www.weathertech.com/store/mvproduct.aspx?ItemGroupId=3&VehId=639&Year=200- - - 9&CustomerVehId=0
Note their Camry floor mats have not one but TWO holes for the anchors!
Yes, indeed, we need fault tolerant designs.
Toyota provides that. Both the car, and the carpeted mats, and the rubber mats. Toyota is fault-tolerant.
MacNeil is fault-tolerant.
The .99 cent plastic mats you find at Dollar Tree - SORRY, not fault-tolerant.
So...let's go sue Toyota, folks! Makes so much sense! :sick:
There has to be a limit to fault-tolerant - at the rate we are going, it will be NO cars for anyone!
Responding to another post, I don't work for Toyota, a supplier, dealership, or a company that has ANYTHING to do with Toyota. Family doesn't either. I don't own Toyota stock directly, although some of my funds might include Toyota stock - I don't know for sure, so I hope that clears things up.
I, too, hate to hear of someone hurt or killed in any accident. But this insanity has to stop. It is NOT Toyota's fault these people died. There is nothing wrong with the car used as designed. Lets quit feeding the lawyers and learn a little more common sense for ourselves. Lets take a little blame for our own screwups instead of suing anybody and everybody. Lets concentrate on a SMARTER world, instead of a litigious society where everyone and everything else is always at fault. Im so sick of this type of thing.... this is a freaking floormat issue, for gods sake...and it will end up costing millions. God help us when we get to serious and important issues.
Toyota has had hooks for at least 12 years, and they tell you to use only one mat and use the hooks.
why do you think that is?
Toyota spokesman John Hanson said at this point, there are no changes imminent for start-stop buttons, not even a warning label. The three-second activation time was quite deliberate."That feature is a safety feature in (and of) itself," he said. "we want to make sure the engine is not shut off inadvertantly by touching the button." Toyota is yet to announce how it plans to deal with a permanent fix on the accelerator problem that would let people put their floor mats back in the cars.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2009/10/68500247/1
Actually there was an earlier notice about a TSB and the pedals on the Toyota. I recall someone in the past mocking that there was a complaint, TSB, or whatever, so trivial about floor mats while other cars have "real" recalls about bad things; mat problems weren't bad. (>God help us when we get to serious and important issues.)
However, we see now, with 120 complaints documents, that floor mat interference with accelerator is important. So the floor mats in a Toyota complain should have put the "best car company in the world" on notice to redesign the pedal and its location to mitigate interference from the commonly used extra mats. A solution is not suggesting people not use extra mats or suggesting they use hooks.
Actually when this problem is put together with other under the rug problems through the Toyo lines about acceleration lag over the last few years, I agree with a few other people who suggest there may be more to this problem than just mats impinging accelerators and forcing them to the floor.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Toyota has been going after Biller for disclosing secrets it believes were covered by attorney-client privilege. Biller fought back by filing his own lawsuit alleging Toyota destroyed or hid evidence and test results. With lawyer Tracy ready to ask the court today to let him see what's inside of those boxes, you can bet Toyota will be there to oppose letting anyone take a peek except maybe the judge. And maybe not even him.
Looks like Toyotas' got more stuff under their rug than we all thought! :mad:
In the northeast, where I live, it's not uncommon for people to use a second mat on top of the factory mat, in winter weather. Hell, my Cobalt's factory mats are light gray, like the interior, so I've had cheapo carpet mats on top of them since day one. You'd have to have several inches of mats to jam the gas pedal, though.
I have to wonder if the support of Toyota in this case would be the same if the manufacturer was GM, Ford, or Chrysler.
I think that while the accident apparently could have been avoided, Toyota may at least be guilty of just-plain dumb design in making a gas pedal hang so low and be so easily susceptible to an aftermarket floor mat.
Bill
So, are your cheapo mats transparent so that you can see the factory mats? If not why don't you have the factory mats in storage when you have the cheapo mats installed?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That's exactly the point. I would think to avoid issues like these manufacturers would tend to idiot proof their vehicles. That Toyota pedal design is definitely not idiot proof.
Just a thought.
You could shift the car into neutral.
You could shift the car into reverse which would destroy the transmission, (imagine the sound that would make at 100 mph!) but would stop the car ultimately saving your life. I think I'd rather face a rather hefty car repair bill than be dead.
Did the driver try the handbrake?
Did the driver panic and simply not realize it was a stuck floor mat and reach down and pull it out or fail to ask his passenger to do it for him? I've had this situation happen before and it's often after I've been to a full-service car wash when the attendants are in a hurry and fail to place the mats properly. Sometime the mat is actually laid over the accelerator pedal. At that point, it's at a slow speed and not too much of a hazard.
I don't know how Toyota/Lexus cars operate. Do they have some kind of override preventing the cars from being shifted into neutral or reverse over a certain speed? Can they not simply be turned-off when the car is moving?
At least on my 2004 Camry with conventional ignition switch, you can easily put the car in neutral at 60 mph -- I just tried it. But I'm not going to go 100 mph just to prove a point.
Handbrake would be ineffective at 100 mph+. You need full braking power on all 4 wheels.
I have no doubt the driver did panic. Reports are the dealer put the wrong mats in this loaner car, mats that were longer than standard. Because the car was a loaner, the driver would be much less familiar with the car, but he'd presumably have less incentive to worry about damaging it.
The knee airbags do not require a larger knee bolster to contain them, so that is not the reason the accelerator pedal is closer to the floor.
A crash sequence starting at 100+ mph and ending in a fire is well beyond the design capabilities of any airbags being used today.
I'm not sure how modern cars are, and it may vary, but with my '79 New Yorker, you can't even turn the key all the way to the off position if it's in gear, so there's no worry about locking up the steering. However, on a car with a push-button start, I'm not sure how it works.
As for shifting into reverse, I don't think modern cars will let you do that at speed. The transmissions are too "smart". Heck, even my '57 DeSoto won't let you shift into reverse if it's moving forward more than 10 mph. But my grandmother's '85 Buick LeSabre would! (don't ask me how I know that
Junior will only turn on the accessories like the radio in that case. The footbrake must be depressed and the tranny in Park before the engine will start. The car won't move unless the pedal remains depressed and the car is shifted out of Park.
Presumably, Junior will be too short to reach the brake pedal, and Junior shouldn't be in the front seat unrestrained in the first place.
When I drive my son's Prius with this setup, I always have the fob in my pocket (or he does if he's in the car).
NASCAR cars are purpose-built to withstand high-speed rollovers, but it's still possible to die in racing, even today.
I don't disagree, but that has more to do with the design of the mat itself, not just the car.
What needs to stop is these cheap JC Whitney style pieces that creates these hazards in the first place.
That about sums it up. I think both sides will agree on that one.
But ... does this mean Toyota should be liable? Or the idiot?
The very phrase fault-tolerant implies Toyota is being expected to compensate for an error that is something or someone else's fault, i.e. that same idiot they're trying to proof against.
So, go after the manufacturer with deep pockets, or the at-fault idiot?
That is where the two camps do not agree.
Sure, more fault-tolerant designs avoid these situations entirely, but that's how we end up with step ladders that have a giant STOP warning on the top rung. I'm sure some idiot would have kept on going - right past the last rung in the ladder!
If they did - would it be the ladder manufacturer's fault for not putting STOP there?
Remember, Toyota provides the hooks. The OE rubber mats and carpeted mats have grommets. They basically didn't forget the STOP sticker.
This pic is close, it tells you not to climb the back side, the side WITHOUT THE STEPS! DUH!
The funny thing is this - they put it there because someone actually climbed the wrong side of the ladder!
Toyota: I wish you luck proofing your cars to the intelligence level of the guy who climbed the wrong side of that ladder.
Man, many automakers do now and I doubt Toyota was the first to offer knee airbags. In fact I would be surprised if more then a couple of the vehicles included in this recall have knee airbags. The 2007 Camry has them and so does the ES350 but do any other Toyotas? I think the Land Cruiser/LX470 do and probably some of the other Lexus models but that is it.
Funny thing, I felt, was that Kia didn't really ever do well in crash tests, even with those.