Brand Problems Swept Under The Rug

gagrice

This all adds up to gasoline being a more dangerous automotive fuel than diesel. Diesel fumes are not going to ignite in an accident like gas fumes.

mcdawgg

No, I would say that the dealer put the wrong mats in the car and caused the whole problem. This could happen to any car. Bottom line - buy the correct mats, then read AND follow the directions. From what I read, it sure sounds like the dealer put some incorrect mats in - that's the problem.

explorerx4

like i posted before, there is plenty of space between the floor and the bottom of the gas pedal in my car, so i don't see this happening.
i actually have 2 mats in the front, and have to keep pulling the top one back, but it does not interfere with either the gas or brake pedal.

gagrice

I have the same situation with my Sequoia. There is plenty of room for the extra mats. Poorly designed accelerator pedal IMO.

mcdawgg

Well, it depends on what mat you put on top. Some, like yours, may not interfere, but some might. It all depends - I bet I could find a mat to put on top, slide around AND interfere with the pedals.

For safety's sake, PLEASE don't do this in any car. I have used Weather-tech mats, and they are superb. You remove the mats and just use this ONE. Same with the Toyota all-weather mats. I have never had a need to put two mats on top to keep everything clean. I live in a snowy area, and keep cars 10+ years.

colloquor

Andre - I owned a Pinto back in college, and I couldn't wait to get rid of that car, especially because of the location of the gas tank. That wasn't the only reason, but #1 on the list.

The SAAB Classic 900 series cars that I've owned, thankfully, placed the gas tank forward of the rear axle. And, the tank was not steel, rather a hi-tech plastic of some sort.

nippononly

of conversation begs the question: just how much human stupidity and operator carelessness should automakers have to account for in their automotive designs?

For instance, why on earth would the dealership stack two mats on top of each other? This is San Diego, not a single flake of snow to be seen, and hardly any rain either. One barely needs the first mat, let alone two piled on top of each other.

Automakers had to incorporate squeaking brake pad designs to inform the driver the brake pad was gone, because people wouldn't check their brakes.

Now we have added $50 of cost to every vehicle for TPMS because negligent drivers won't check their own tires, which can also lead to disaster.

Next we will have standard infrared systems to report bald tires in the IP and then progressively disable the vehicle, because drivers don't buy new tires when the old ones are bald, leading to all kinds of mayhem in the first rain event. That will add another $100 to every vehicle.

What then? Limp-home mode when burned-out headlights and brake lights aren't replaced? We already have eye-movement tracking devices to inform a driver they should have heeded the call to sleep and gotten off the highway. Weaving monitors for drivers that are so busy setting up the entertainment system(s) that they can't keep it in the lane and are about to cause an accident.

There ought to be a law.

mcdawgg

Excellent points. This is not a poor design, it is the human error of stacking up floor mats, IMHO.

You forgot one more - the maintenance lights to tell you when to change your oil - another thing (and another cost) that I don't need :mad:

iluvmysephia1

the annoying little dash lights that tell you when you haven't clicked the gas cap enough times when putting it back on. One of my favorites. It does tell you in the owner's manual to click it several times or you'll get the gas vapor buildup that will tell your sensors that you have a gas tank evaporation leak. :sick:

Of some important sort. :confuse:

lemko

My brother had that same thing happen with his Hyundai Sonata. He got a dashboard light illuminated and it turned out to be something with the gas cap. I think Hyundai had to replace the gas cap as it wouldn't seal properly.

iluvmysephia1

lemko, that's what Kia did for me as well. Fixes it in an instant, though.

ateixeira

Kudos on a very well written post.

Indeed, the Lexus HS250 hybrid has a system that looks for wandering eyes (dozing off or not paying attention) and will beep at you to remind you to look at the road.

Volvo has a system that will apply the brakes and completely stop the car in an emergency to prevent rear ending.

Clearly the market is catering to cars that will actually correct our mistakes.

Rotors, of course, that's what I meant. Here's a simulated image:

dougb_serk

Nippon, you are 100% on the money. I could not have said it better. A few less idiots texting while driving (I find it absurd that anyone does this!) would do so much more to make are roads safe than any of these 'idiot-proofing' devices. And the real irony of TPMS? 90% of the flat or low pressure incidents I see now are CAUSED by those stupid monitors leaking around the valve stem! (I am a ASE master employed at a dealership) I also doubt the cost of these systems at only 50 bucks per vehicle. I'd wager its much more. This type of stuff is out of control, Im glad to find someone who agrees.

iluvmysephia1

are costing the manufacturer more like $100-$200 per rig. As for texting, I saw some very gruesome pictures about a year ago on the net of a young man who just couldn't stave off texting while driving.

He was torn asunder after running into a semi. I would think some of these warnings would start getting through to just the right types. All of so many million of them. :sick:

ateixeira

Did you see that video of the bus driver who was texting and rear ended the car in front of him? That was wild. Just 21 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M74j8LvX6k

He slaps the steering wheel because he knows he's screwed.

Volvo's system could have prevented that, but are we then enabling people like him? Do you really think he would stop texting while driving if he had NOT hit that SUV?

longo2

I was watching a TV program called "1000 ways to Die" based on actual case histories of odd circumstances combined with human distraction, and in some cases just plain human stupidity (an under reported epidemic these days)

So the story goes, a young guy driving a pick up truck is Texting his girlfriend on the way to pick her up somewhere and they are trying to decide where the best place to meet would be.

They are going back and forth on that one as the guy drives into a Mall parking lot and hits and kills a woman walking along peering at her cell phone, texting.

According to witnesses he got out of the truck and said 'What was that"!
Yup, you guessed it, it was his girlfriend.

ateixeira

The worst part is very rarely will people admit when they make a mistake like that. It's sort of ... humiliating.

I doubt that guy driving the bus would have admitted the texting to his employer had it not been caught on film. In fact I wonder if he told the truth at all, even with the camera.

A while ago, in another thread, someone was changing his oil and drove his car off the ramp - after he had drained the oil and before he had poured new oil back in.

Let's see, what are the odds he reveals that to the manufacturer when the engine dies in a short while?

explorerx4

last time i checked there is sand and dirt and occasionally some mud in San Diego.

i like the squeak tab on the brakes, that way you don't replace them too early.

just to play devil's advocate, i wonder if the manufacturer could be partially on the liability hook?
afterall, there was a recall a few years earlier, but they did not change the pedal design to be more fault tolerant, subsequently.

ateixeira

But they recalled the carpets, IIRC, not the pedals.

I don't think they should have to design pedals that can withstand any old carpet or mat..

andre1969

And don't depend too much on those tabs to tell you when your brakes are wearing out. Brake pads don't always wear evenly. I've seen them wear at an angle, to where the metal is about to grind into the caliper, yet the squeak tab is nowhere near making contact.

explorerx4

those are probably some auto zone pads.

british_rover

Has collision avoidance on some cars that works at high speed to monitor many things.

It checks your blind spots(BLISS), alerts you if you leave your lane(Land Departure Warning) radar based adaptive cruise control to set cruise gaps and perform auto brake if a car pulls out in front of you or slams on the brakes at high speeds. It won't stop the car completly but it will start slowing the car down and flash red lights to get your attention. Also they have driver alert control that buzzes, makes lights and puts up a little coffee cup with the words, "time to take a break" symbol if it thinks you are sleepy.

The City Safety thing at low speeds will stop the car from hitting another car or large object when the speed differential is between 1 and 9 mph and the overall speed is 19 mph or less. From 10 mph to 19 mph it can only slow the car down it won't react fast enough to stop an impact.

Oh and those push button start/stop systems don't make you wait five seconds to shut down a car when driving. Everyone I have used either requires a double tap of the button to shut down the car or Acura/Infinit's system is a rotating lever not a button so if you turn it back like you would a regular ignition it shuts the car off right away.

I haven't tried the push button start in a ES350 but I have used it in other Lexus and they shut off with a double tap IIRC. You don't have to wait five seconds. It works just like how you would want it to if you need to shut off the engine while moving in a panic. You hit the button once and nothing happens so you hit it again within a second or two and the engine is shut off. That is how I would want the system to work so just hitting the button by accident doesn't shut off the car.

explorerx4

you've probably driven a broader variety of higher line vehicles than just about anyone who posts on a regular basis.
i did some looking around on edmunds and the start button on the ES350 has start/stop printed on it.

dougb_serk

as far as the brake wear sensors, it has nothing to do with the brand of the pads. If the pads hang up because of corrosion, or the caliper pistons are retracting unevenly because of age, they can easily wear enough to damage a rotor before the sensor hits. It happens all the time.

As far as shutting off a 'push button start' car, all Ive encountered (Nissan and Infiniti) shut off if you push the button again when the car is currently in the running mode. I would have to 'see it to believe it' that any make requires you to push and hold the button to kill the ignition

andre1969

Nah, actually the OEM pads on my 2000 Intrepid pulled that stunt. Maybe I shouldn't have said that though, since now that leaves Mopar ripe for picking on! :P

I was still fairly impressed though...got 39,000 miles out of the front pads, and even then I only replaced them all at once because of the one that was wearing funny (passenger side, outer pad). Considering back in those days I delivered pizzas, and that accounted for most of the mileage, I don't think 39,000 is too bad.

Now the auto zone pads I replaced the OEM with only lasted 30,000 miles. But they didn't wear funny like the OEM did.

explorerx4

i thought about throwing is 'mopar' reference, but my mom never had many problems her brakes, so it just would have been a cheap shot, and i didn't want to do that.
did think about it, though.

stickguy

well, that reminds me of Honda, and not sure they have been reemed out yet.

there is the fiasco with the V6 trannys making the old Mopars look good. and lucky me, I own 2 of them! Honda has done everything possible to deny and stonewall, trying to protect their (IMO) no longer deserved reputation for long term bullet proof reliability.

the Accords, at least the 2003-2008 generation, also have a poor design for the rear brakes. I think it is the caliper. Many people, myself included, have had very premature rear brake wear. I am really not used to a FWD car wearing out rear brakes in 40K, when the fronts are barely 1/2 cooked!

in my case, it was actually 1 inner pad. THe brake guy said it was likely from a sticky caliper, and that it was very common on accords. Of course, the Honda serviceguy never heard of an accord needingnew brake pads!

grandtotal

Maybe not limited to Accords. Our Odyssey had front barke pads and rotors replaced under warranty at 53000km (32000 miles) and rear pads and rotors at 58000km (35000 miles). In both cases I was expecting to pay for them (wearing parts) and was surprised when the car was returned to me with no charge.

ssimm

My Lexus took off on me 3 years ago resulting in an accident. It has been an ongoing problem with Lexus ES models since 2002. Look at the NHTSA Office of Defects Investigation website and search any year from 2002 to 2009 ES 300, ES 330, and ES 350. They say it is the floor mats, but it isn't. Something goes haywire with the electronics of the accelerator. I am sure they know that there is a real problem but won't do the recall for fear that the cost of fixing each one on the road would cause them to go bankrupt. Plus the liability for injuries and lawsuits from auto insurance claims. Anyone can say anything they want about the CHP officer. I am glad he got it on record with 911 what was happening while it was happening. I just wish he and his family had not died from this. It is an outrageous tragedy and I know very well the terror he was experiencing. I will never forget it. The 911 recording gave me the chills when I heard it. Lexus needs to step up to the plate. Sooner or later all of this will catch up with them.

explorerx4

why doesn't the camry, highlander, and RX??? have the reports?

gagrice

The 2007 Camry alone has 36 reports to the NHTSA ODI on runaway acceleration.

Also 6 reports for 2008. I think it is very possible Toyota is brushing this under the rug. Notice how in just about every case the service people play dumb?

I HAVE A 2008 TOYOTA CAMRY V6. EARLY ONE MORNING I TOOK THE CAR TO A WASH AND ON THE WAY BACK HOME PULLING AWAY FROM A STOP SIGN THE GAS PEDAL STUCK TO THE FLOOR WITH THE ACCELERATOR WIDE OPEN. IT TOOK A GOOD HALF BLOCK OF STOMPING ACCELERATOR AND BRAKE TO CLEAR. LONGO TOYOTA TOLD ME THEY NEVER HEARD OF THE PROBLEM AND COULD NOT FIND ANYTHING WRONG WITH CAR

gagrice

How about the 2009 Camry? More playing dumb at the dealer.

TOYOTA CAMRY 2009 - WHILE DRIVING ON THE HIGHWAY THE CAR SUDDENLY ACCELERATED FROM 65MPH TO 90MPH WITHOUT EVEN TOUCHING THE GAS PEDDLE. IT WAS FULL THROTTLE. WHEN TRYING TO STOP IT BECAME VERY DIFFICULT FOR THE BRAKES TO DEPRESS. HAD TO PUSH DOWN ON BRAKES VERY HARD TO GET IT TO SLOW DOWN. THE NEXT DAY DRIVING ON A LOCAL STREET I PULLED OUT OF MY STREET AND STARTED TO ACCELERATE AND THE IT JUST ACCELERATED OUT OF CONTROL, GOING FROM 30MPH TO 50MPH. TRIED THE BRAKES AND THEY FELT LIKE THEY WEREN'T WORKING UNTIL YOU HAD TO STEP ON THEM ALL THE WAY. THAT WAS TWO DAYS IN A ROW THAT THIS HAPPEN. TOOK INTO THE DEALERSHIP AND THEY SAID THEY COULDN'T FIND ANYTHING WRONG WITH THE CAR OR DUPLICATE THE PROBLEM. I HAVE RESEARCHED THIS ISSUE AND HAVE FOUND THAT THERE IS A LOT OF COMPLAINTS OF THIS VERY SAME PROBLEM. SOMETHING NEEDS TO GET DONE OR THERE WILL BE A LOT OF ACCIDENTS.

stickguy

ssimm, can you supply some details?

and gagrice, If I had a car that did what the one in the clip you supplied did, it wouldn't have a chance to do it a 2nd time!

ANd if it did, for sure it would get towed to the dealer and left there.

gagrice

Most people feel helpless when the dealer refuses to believe what they say. My position would be to leave it at the dealership and contact an attorney. Sadly 4 people have died a horrible death to bring strong attention to a condition that seems to be experienced with many ToyLex models. It is not just the Camry and ES350. The Prius has had many cases of runaway throttle. Of course the dealer resets the computer when it is brought in and all is well until the next time.

pp2009pp

How do all of these Toyota problems end up in the BMW forum ?

Is there an acceleration problems on BMWs? There are transmission problems on BMWs from what appear to be two GM built transmissions.

One can't get into reverse and the other herks and jerks and hesitates before accelerating. I have felt a surge of power unexpected in the BMW X3 but not runway acceleration.

Should I be looking for that as well in this :lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :lemon:

stickguy

all cars should come with a manual tranny and a clutch.

you would never have this problem in a stickshift car.

iluvmysephia1

and I rented a 2009 Toyota Camry at Sea-Tac Airport in June this year. Put over a thousand miles on the thing. And to think that it could have had a stuck accelerator occur during my vacation in the Pacific Northwest! I had a few of my sisters with me for some of the excursions and on one mini-trip in the Camry I had two sisters and one of their friends with me going to Kelowna, B.C. Nothing of that sort happened to my white '09 rental Camry, but still it's a scary after-thought.

Toyo-Lexus needs to step up and fix this thing. Those of us on Edmunds here now know of this problem, and, in my mind this is now a public relations problem of their's. Release a statement(yeah, right!)or release a TSB or have a recall and fix this problem before anyone else gets hurt.

Piled on mats is a dumb thing to have happen to anyone, but that can happen from a busy service employee that's not paying good enough attention to what they're doing. But an internal ECU error and incorrect programming or a bug in the car's ignition electronics and accelerator is a horse of another flavor completely and needs immediate attention and a recall.

stever

How do all of these Toyota problems end up in the BMW forum ?

We categorized this discussion broadly and it currently includes Toyota, Chevrolet, Honda, Chrysler, Kia, BMW, Lexus, Subaru, and Nissan. So it's not really just a BMW discussion but it may look that way if you come here from other BMW boards on CarSpace.

pp2009pp

Yes, the X3 MT does not have these problems.

Most people cannot or will not drive a stick so the answer is to have better programmers over at BMW, better QA at Magna, better responsiveness from BMW once a problem appers and not to buy transmissions from GM. So I read that GM stepped up on the transmissions for their own customers for the Reverse problem but BMW did not for theirs.

If true, that would be a nice thing...better service and support from GM than you get for your premium priced BMW badge. Yet another reason this :lemon: will be my last BMW.

pp2009pp

I do see this thread under the BMW > Related folder.

Does anyone know Vatkens? Vatkens is a poster who makes the occasional appearance on the bimmerfest.com site saying that he/she is a representative from BMWNA IIRC and will be contacting irate posters soon.

I think that Vatkens, customer service, is a myth. A poster making fun of the idea.

stever

We used to have a BMW customer service rep here but he/she hasn't logged in for a couple of years. They probably read the forums in guest mode ... and take notes.

pp2009pp

That's interesting.

Vatkens from what I read comes from on high occasionally and supposedly works with the customer on issues. Someone said Vatkens had taken information from his/her posting and called him/her at work. Someone else said you can call BMWNA, ask for Vatkens and get a woman in customer service.

I don't know. Sounds fishy.

Wishful thinking that any company would take enough concern for post purchase complaints and do anything like that. I think it is a goofball poster having a funny.

carstryke

i agree.......but can you not shift a auto in neutral nowadays??? i know for a fact you could with a 85 camry lol ......guess ill try it out on my 09 nox next time i run out for something

stever

We've also had an active Toyota rep posting (back during the gel days), and there was a Ford rep posting over the summer. And we had a great Subaru rep for a long time, but she moved on to upper management and had to stop participating in the forums. Probably some others that I've forgotten. The lawyers gets a bit weird about what information gets posted on the net I guess, so it's not common. Lutz's blogging probably really drives them nuts.

andre1969

i agree.......but can you not shift a auto in neutral nowadays??? i know for a fact you could with a 85 camry lol ......guess ill try it out on my 09 nox next time i run out for something

This isn't exactly "modern" anymore, but I can shift my 2000 Intrepid into neutral at highway speeds.

However, I think one thing you might not be able to do with a modern car is downshift at too high of a speed. I think the transmissions are too "smart" to let you do that, for fear of over-revving the engine. You'd be able to put it into a lower gear, but if you're going too fast, the programming in the tranmission would keep it from shifting down.

explorerx4

i wonder if the car has one of those ecu's with a recording memory?
it might help figure out what happened.

ateixeira

Did you try the brakes? What happened?

You didn't really provide details. Please share.

ssimm

Yes, I did try the brakes. It all happened so fast from the beginning of the acceleration until the collision with the other car, that I really didn't have time to think. I was parking, with my foot lightly on the brake, and all of a sudden the engine took off and I immediately went over the car stop, down a small embankment, into the road, and then collided with a car on the road. Of course, the incident was reported to Lexus. Lexus actually had my car for a couple of weeks for investigation purposes. I was leasing the car and they would not let me out of the lease and I was forced to continue to drive the car until the lease was up. I was traumatized. I went to the doctor and was diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder. A few months later after the first incident, upon parking again, the car engine revved and started to take off again. This time, being aware of the problem, I was able to keep my senses and jammed my foot on the brake and held it to the floor as hard as I could and got the car stopped before it ran into a tree. This incident was also reported to Lexus. They keep saying it is from floor mats, but it is not. I believe it is something to do with the electronics of the accelerator. After my lease was up on the first Lexus, I leased another Lexus. I also had a problem with the engine revving on this one. The problem started when I pulled into a parking lot again and was parking. The car took off and I jammed on the brakes. It stopped and I put it in park. Later when I got in the car, it was trying to stall out at stop lights. I went to my next stop and was parking again. I put the car in park, and the engine revved way up all on its own like I was holding my foot on the accelerator. At that point, I called Lexus and took the car right in that day and they looked at it. They said it was some kind of sensor and reset the computer. I haven't had any problems with it since. That was a couple of months ago. I am always on guard when I am parking the car since these sudden acceleration incidents have happened. Unfortunately, it takes a tragic fiery accident like the one in California to get anyone's attention. I am glad the officer was able to get it on public record with 911 what was happening.

ateixeira

You leased another Lexus after those 2 incidents with the first one?! :confuse:

smithed

"You leased another Lexus after those 2 incidents with the first one?!"

Definition of (let's call it hopefulness):

Doing the same thing once again and expecting a different result.