Brand Problems Swept Under The Rug

nippononly

Yeah, it's pretty much a truism that whatever MT recommends as the _____ of the Year is going to be the worst choice around.

Of course, this year's MT Truck of the Year is the Forester, which is a pretty good little trucklet, so maybe that rule isn't 100%.

I had forgotten all about that terrible run of MLs in the late 90s. They disgraced the Mercedes name.

gagrice

Wasn't that the beginning of Mercedes building vehicles in Alabama? That had to be a learning curve with the language barrier. Alabamese is not what was taught as English in the German schools.

andre1969

I think the first time I saw one of those ML's was in the second "Jurassic Park" movie. I didn't know what to make of them at the time. Based on their style, I think my mind actually classified them as more minivan than SUV.

fintail

Minivans...that's what most SUVs really are...their owners just can't admit it :shades:

fintail

Yes, the ML was the first Alabama-built car. Purists really don't embrace any of them.

stickguy

most of them are station wagons. Mostly because of the muc higher rear deck.

Heck, an Explorer is just a current day Ford wagon. always has been.

fintail

I guess that's right, what comes first, the chicken or egg? In this case, it's the wagon - which is what the minivan is in evolutionary terms. Now, the crossovers are glorified wagons for those who think they are too cool for such vehicles. And we still have a handful of wagons, which can be relatively cool vehicles - much moreso than any crossover.

colloquor

Re. Caravan transmission failures... I am firmly convinced the majority of problems with the 4 speed ECT in Chrysler minivans are due to poor preventive maintenance and perhaps even driving style or technique. Poor preventive maintenance, of course, is a major cause of most problems with cars - including Toyota sludging.

We bought a new Grand Caravan ES in 1994 with the 3.3L V6 and 4 speed ECT. When we sold it in 2007 with 165K on the clock, it still had the original transmission. And, it was still shifting as smoothly as it did upon delivery. I changed the ATF every 24K or two years - whichever came first - and we drove the van conservatively - no jackrabbit starts, no excessive acceleration, and very seldom, if ever, used the kickdown feature of the transmission. Another killer of this transmission was the use of incorrect spec ATF - a very common, and unfortunate, occurrence, especially by the quick lubes.

anythngbutgm

Makes sense. When I had my MDX and I knew that the tranny was prone to issues, I used to have the fluid flushed yearly. I didn't even take a chance on it becoming discoloered from the third gear clutchpack which was supposedly under-lubricated. The dealer also installed the TSB oil jet which supposedly cured alot of the problem.

I am a stickler when it comes to maintainence on all my cars. I'd rather pay up front for preventative maintainence than have a large repair bill come up due to my neglegence. :shades:

nippononly

Given the fact that half of EVERYBODY uses quickie lubes for their vehicles' service, should automakers be designing cars to reflect that reality, or designing them to use proprietary fluids and special parts which will cause the entire vehicle to fail when they are replaced with generics?

Hondas have always been a bit too picky in that regard. If Chrysler used some special spec that no-one else used and Jiffy Lube wouldn't have, that wasn't a wise decision IMO.

ateixeira

Remember the Jeep Grand Wagoneer? One of the first SUVs...

ateixeira

My neighbor sold carpet for a living, so his was often loaded up to the full payload.

Their minivans, though - with all that space, automakers should expect them to be filled up with heavy loads, else they wouldn't be buying them in the first place.

I think oil coolers for the transmissions and engines should be standard. My 2007 Sienna came standard with the tow prep package, which has those, but Toyota inexplicably dropped it from the 2008 models (the option became $220 extra a la carte).

For $220 it seems well worth having it be a little heavier duty.

lokki

Here's the fundamental question - if all cars may fail, why pay more for more quality?

My answer is based on something I learned from a guy in the electronics business.

Using dated examples: A Sansui Stereo and a Yamaha Stereo may have the the same specifications, but the Yamaha is significantly more expensive. What are you paying for?

The answer is that Yamaha inspects every component used in the assembly, and has closer tolerances (say +/- 2x vs. +/- 5x). You've paying for the cost of making the components to the tighter tolerances and inspecting them to see that they actually meet those specifications.

Now, on an individual unit basis, you MAY get a Sansui that meets all its specifications perfectly. However the odds of getting a Yamaha that meets all its specifications are much higher. So buying the Yamaha is (was in those days) less of a gamble.

The same is true with Chevy's and Toyotas's.

lokki

The early E-46 3 Series BMW's ate window regulators like a kid eats candy. On my car, one failed and they replaced all four. Since most of them failed under warranty, most BMW owners paid no attention. My friend who had a couple fail out of warrenty noticed.

There's also an issue with the rear shock mounts failing on the E36 3 Series cars, and a question about failing subframes on some of the E46 cars. Again, because BMW takes care of these issues, they're not widely commented on.

Finally, one that I can't believe was unique to my 2003 was the issue of bad electrical connectors for the headlights and tail lights - they'd melt. I had what I thought was a bulb on my left rear tail light and went into to have it taken care of (Hey! BMW really will take care of everything for 4 years or 50K miles, so why not?).

I ended up being there for 3 hours, since they wouldn't let me leave until they'd replaced all the electrical connectors to the bulbs front and rear. It cost me nothing, but confidence in their Chinese supplier and 3 hours. I just can't believe that my car was the only one this happened too... so I suspect that more cars just had their problems quietly taken care of during routine servicing appointments.

Still, BMW has taken very good care of me, so I have no complaints. I'll buy a yet another after this one. However, since the topic is 'problems swept under the rug' I thought I'd give a few successful examples. :P

andre1969

I guess that's right, what comes first, the chicken or egg? In this case, it's the wagon - which is what the minivan is in evolutionary terms. Now, the crossovers are glorified wagons for those who think they are too cool for such vehicles.

If you really want to trace it back, they all came from the same basic design. Just look at the old Model-T and Model-A. You could get them as a car, in just about every possible configuration open or closed. You could also get a pickup truck. And while the terms "station wagon" or "SUV" hadn't been coined yet, we had its forefather, the depot hack.

I don't think cars and trucks started to differentiate all that much until the 1940's or even the 1950's, when cars started getting lower and longer. My grandfather's first "pickup truck" was a used 1939 Plymouth sedan that he took and cut the back half of the body off, and then built a wooden bed.

british_rover

My shop carried all of the common make specific fluids. We had all the special Chrysler ATFs, the GLS Chevy specific synthetic gear oils, GL-4 gear oil for certain japanese manual trans vehicles and GL-5 for everything else, special power steering fluids for hondas, jags, etc.

We had a huge lubricant inventory but as Amsoil started making more and more fluids that met all the specific factory specs I started paring down our stock of speciality lubes. The top of the line Amsoil ATF covered just about all of the specialty automatic trans fluid specifications that we saw on a regular basis and it was only about 5-8 bucks a quart. Some of those special ATFs are 20 dollars or more a quart from the dealer part counter.

The top end Amsoil gear oil also covered just about all of the specialty gear oil specs. If we got a car in in that wasn't covered by our Amsoil stock or some of the other conventional lubes I had we didn't do the work.

longo2

Stupid Engineer tricks create a lot of owner issues like your point about the special fluids, and the Car Company just looks the other way when you point them out.

My grandson just bought his "first car"...don't laugh its a 1999 Dodge Grand Caravan. He loves the room for his 'long board and 2 huge dogs.

When he found it needed some tune up work, the shop gave him a $365.00 estimate for changing the spark plugs. Seems you need to dismantle the whole top end of the engine to make room to get at the 3 plugs in the back.
So, it's a whole new gasket set for the intake manifold removal and several hours of shop time to change 3 plugs.

I have heard of even more heroic efforts required to change other parts...right down to pulling the engine out to get at something.

My 10 year old Buick Park AVe has an access plate in the trunk, flip up the rug, take out the screws pry it off and there's the electric fuel pump and fuel gauge sender in the top of the fuel tank.
No need to hoist up the car, drain and drop the gas tank just to change a fuel pump.

How about access points through the firewall to change the back bank of spark plugs from inside the car?

Guess I wasn't invited to that meeting of the genious minds that design engine bays. :mad:

ateixeira

Here's the fundamental question - if all cars may fail, why pay more for more quality?

Good point.

I look at this 2 ways:

* Mean time to failure is longer for the quality product.

* If odds are you'll have 0-5 problems with car A, and 0-15 problems with car B, all other things being equal, I will choose car A.

Now, having said that, you could still have a car A with 5 problems vs. a car B with 0 problems, but that's just the whole concept of randomness at work.

ateixeira

I have heard of even more heroic efforts required to change other parts...right down to pulling the engine out to get at something.

Careful, though, because many of these are urban myths.

In the Subaru threads it seems like once a year or so someone comes in claiming you have to remove the engine to get to the plugs.

I know that's not true as I've tuned up several different Subaru myself. Access is difficult on some models (not all, even), but the whole "pulling the engine out" is merely hyperbole.

Thing is, it's funny, so everyone believes it. Hence the urban myth.

british_rover

You have to do that on almost any FWD V6 or V8 car with a transverse engine. Sometimes there is room for access between the manifold and the firewall and sometimes the manifold is spaced out so you can get to the plugs with a long extension but not always. I would rather have a sold firewall for safety reasons. Those conversion vans with the dog house were always a little suspect to me.

As for having to remove the engine to get stuff out yes I agree with Ateixeira many times that is just a myth. For example 4th gen F-Bodies supposedly have to have the engine removed to do the spark plugs but you can get them out without pulling the engine. The whole job will probably take you four to six hours but you can pull the last of the plugs out of the back of the engine from underneath the car.

andre1969

For example 4th gen F-Bodies supposedly have to have the engine removed to do the spark plugs but you can get them out without pulling the engine. The whole job will probably take you four to six hours but you can pull the last of the plugs out of the back of the engine from underneath the car.

I remember with my grandmother's '85 LeSabre, which had an Olds 307, Granddad would actually jack it up and go through the wheel well to get to some of the spark plugs. I remembered that trick when I had to change the plugs on my '86 Monte Carlo, which had a Chevy 305.

jlflemmons

The tune up on this monster is outrageous. Front three plugs, five minutes. Back three plugs, 3 hours, and only that if you know what you are doing. Remove all intake, EGR, linkages. Then remove the plenum, which has a proprietary hose attached at the back in a blind reach. Unbolt the plenum, remove, then access the three coils and plugs.

The real p1$$3r is that if you don't get all the coils, long reach coil yokes, and everything else back on correctly, you won't know it until everything is back together and you start the car. I have done one of these, and have turned down every other one that came up. I believe Mazda quotes something like 2.75 hours labor, and I would love to watch one of their guys do it that fast.

ateixeira

That's funny, and makes a Subaru boxer engine tune-up seem easy.

I could do the whole job in about an hour.

My Forester was harder than our Legacy, because the engine bay was more narrow and both had the EJ25 engine.

fezo

Didn't the old Chevy Monzas of the 70s have a V8 that needed to be moved to change the #7 spark plug? That was the story at the time.

ateixeira

Dunno, but if I had to do that work I'd be DARN sure to verify that before I started the job.

gagrice

A preliminary finding in the investigation indicates the accident may have occurred after the accelerator got stuck on a floor mat, the San Diego Union-Tribune reported.

Sheriff's deputies are giving more clues about their investigation into a fiery crash that killed a C-H-P officer and three family members last month, according to a published report.

Mark Saylor, 45, his wife Cleofe, 45, their daughter Mahala, 13 and brother-in-law Chris Lastrella, 38, died in the August 28 crash on highway 125.

The 2009 Lexus ES 350 was a loaner from Bob Baker Lexus El Cajon. Investigators said it was equipped with all-weather mats, designed for Lexus vehicles made between 2004 and 2009.

It's still not clear, however, if they're the same mats that were recalled in 2007 due to concerns that they could trap the gas pedal in the open position.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local-beat/-Floor-Mats-The-Focus-Of-Deadly-Lexus- -Crash---58333232.html

If they were recalled what are they doing in a new ES350. Did the dealer slip them in to keep the carpets clean?

gmonet

How about the problem that you paid hundreds of your tax dollars to a car no one was buying, and the promise was that G..oops, I almost said it, was gonna 'clean up their act" and drop those unwanted lines. I actually called them duplicated lines of big cars..well...there back! GMC and Pontiac, Saturn (actually well made and marketed, but too yuppie for the general buying public) and now they are pushing them back into our lap. Buy any biggie car and we'll give you a test drive for up to 60 days..don't like it, and we'll take it back no questions asked..except, do you want your trade back..well we got a problem.
Al this stuff swept under the carpet..when you have a "sugar daddy" to bail you out when the carpet gets "dirty."

mcdawgg

There was a big recall of All-weather floor mats for 2007 Camrys. They had to be recalled NOT because they were defective, but because people were NOT following the directions and placing them on top of the carpet mats. Keep in mind that the directions SPECIFICALLY said (before the recall) to not put them on top. Guess what some people did? :sick: I have these recalled mats, and there is NO way they cause a problem unless they are put on top of the carpet ones and not secured with the clips. I have not brought them back to be replaced because I know they won't be a problem because I actually read and have common-sense! :mad: Maybe some day I'll go back and get the replacements, but I bet they are not as good because they probably do not cover as much of the floor to accomodate those that do not bother to read.

I will say in this tragic case that it might be that the Lexus dealer messed up BIG, not the people driving it.

fintail

Hey, it's cheaper than actually renting a car :shades:

I don't know if Saturn was too "yuppie"....I haven't personally known a Saturn driver I would give that label to...an Ion isn't exactly a 3er. Saturns in my area seem to be cars for people who hate cars, and treat their cars in a manner to prove it.

Maybe the Poncho will be back as Holden (to replace domestically designed Chevys)...what it should have been at least 10 years ago.

stickguy

well, the mechanic I took a '75ish one with the V8 to for a prepurchase inspection certainly believed it. I didn't end up buying the car (partly it was too expensive, but also when he told me to never bring it back to him for servicing!)

Fun with a V8 and a 4 speed though. Silver hatch. Pretty darned stylish for the day.

vcheng

I know for a fact that it is possible to change all six plugs on a 1999 DGC van without dismantling anything. The rear bank plugs can be reached from below the vehicle up along the firewall. I have done it myself.

If you have a set of ramps and work on a cold engine, maybe 30 minutes tops. You may benefit from shopping around for this service.

andre1969

Didn't the old Chevy Monzas of the 70s have a V8 that needed to be moved to change the #7 spark plug? That was the story at the time.

I have heard that, but I don't know if it's true or not. My neighbor used to race Vegas back in an era that I'm too young to remember. He put 350's in them. I'm sure they had the fender well liners and all sorts of other stuff removed to lighten them, so it might not have been an issue with his cars.

You could get a 350 in the Monza, but I think it was only 1975, and only California/high-altitude areas. It had a 2-bbl carb and was choked down to 125 hp. There was also a tiny 262 V-8 that put out 110 hp, which I think was offered everywhere else.

At some point, they started offering Buick V-6es, a tiny 196 CID unit with around 90 hp, and the more familiar 231 with 105-110 hp. The V-6 probably was a decent blend of power without too much bulk, as Buick's V-6 was very lightweight for the time. Those Chevy smallblocks were heavy, and could make the whole car sag and distort.

gagrice

it might be that the Lexus dealer messed up BIG, not the people driving it.

That would be my guess. Judging from where the accident took place and their direction, it looks like they may have just picked the car up from the dealer and were headed home. If a service guy just tossed those mats in to keep the new carpet clean it would be likely to bunch up under the accelerator. None of the reports mentioned the Lexus model he left for service. If he was not familiar with the 3-5 second shut off on the keyless ignition that would be a problem. That and trying to maintain control at 100+ MPH in heavy traffic, can and did end in tragedy.

fintail

Another MB problem has come to mind - the "sealed" "lifetime" transmissions in late 90s-early 2000s cars. I don't know exactly which models were included in this asinine scheme, but I do know it covered V8 E and C class. As with many cars, if the transmission is not serviced by 100K or so, it has a huge chance of failure as time goes on. MB had the gall to simply eliminate this service from routine maintenance.

ateixeira

I say it's the dealer's responsibility also.

Like I said, I got all weather floor mats for my car, and the instructions are very clear - remove the carpeted mats and use the anchor hooks.

The photos we saw clearly show that the Lexus All-Weather mats have those hooks, but it's up to the dealership to install them properly on their loaner fleet.

That dealer is screwed.

mcdawgg

Yes, the dealer is in big trouble, not Lexus (Toyota). You'd think that a service person, or even a lot guy that preps/washes cars at a Toyota or Lexus dealer should know better!!

After all, Toyota was forced to recall the mats only due to the fact that some people did not bother to read the instructions. A dealership person should know this, and/or the dealership should have trained their employees better.

jlflemmons

The Monza V8 required either the engine be lifted, or a specialized tool be used. The 302 Maverick was much the same way.

The 231v6 in the Olds Starfire (same as Monza) was an interesting motor. I owned a '75 model and put almost 80K miles on it. The engine was pretty much wheezing by 4800rpm, but the low end torque was amazing. Also, the manual tranny in '75 was super-beefy with synchros that would let you downshift to first gear at 60mph. Better be ready, though, because if you did this (and it would have been by mistake due to excess beverage consumption) when you let out the clutch the rear end locked up. :surprise:

But other than flat spotting the tires, nothing in the drivetrain was damaged. Another scary thing about these was their ability to do a tail lift at high speed. As you exceeded 100mph (don't even ask) the back end would start rising. By 110 the rear tires were very, very lightly weighted, and any sudden move on the wheel was going to get ugly in a hurry.

This is the car that finally convinced me that aircraft lift came from the air going over the wing, not just under the wing.

ateixeira

The dealer is hit with a double-whammy.

First they installed the mats improperly.

Then they never recalled the mats in the first place (if they're the old ones).

Presumably the dealers service their own loaners, so they should have caught that.

gmisjunk

Was it Car & Driver ? I Dont recall" as i gave my brother the Full Page life magazine ad " CHEVY VEGA CAR OF THE YEAR " Now any self respecting Fool that has driven one can tell you, ITS TRASH ! How about GM Following { Stalking} Ralph Nader as he goes about his day, because he gave an ACCURATE ASSESSMENT of The Chevy Corvair.... Then GM Apologized To Him For That ! GM Admits That the CHEVY VEGA LITERALLY FELL APART AT MILE 8 INTO THE VEGA TEST.... NOW THATS QUALITY ! HOW ABOUT { count em} 33 MILLION cars & trucks that GM made between 1994 And 2004, Where DEXCOOL Eats away at their Gaskets, Causing many failures & Blown Head gaskets...... GM Lost This classaction Suit Just last may only to be wriiten off in CH. 11. So Gm is still getting paid by Folks that decided to Fix, & Fix & Fix, Something That they openly admit KEEPS FALLING APART, but their POT COMMITTED { poker jargon} so they fix it again...... How About The Supposed Luxury Of a Cadillac? Have You Ever test Drove a lincoln against a Comparable Priced cadillac ? If you do im sure Most Will agree, you can now refer to them as CATTLECRAP ! Is This Because GM makes Cattlecrap in Mexico ? Or is this Because The engineeeeeering is designed to make you a lifetime recipient of the Sucker award ? I think it is the latter. How about the pontiac aztek ? It comes with a pop out tent... Was This an Option or were all lucky buyers treated to one ? GM has had an endless line of suckers to fill their coffers. Your Commercials appear to be working. But Before You Get The GM Sucker Lemon Stuck to Your Forehead. Why dont you invest in a new or backdated issue of Consumer reports, learn how to read the ratings accurately & then when you pop open the hood of that car or truck youll be able to read something other than " eNginEeRed iN tHe uSa aSsEmBleD iN mExiCo"

fezo

A friend of mine had one of those Olds - same year and engine as yours.

ateixeira

That hurts my eyes. I can't read that.

Can you re-post using some punctuation? A little white space goes a long way.

Thanks.

gagrice

More to the story has just come out. The 911 call lasted 50 seconds while the car was going 120 MPH and they claim the brakes would not work. I wonder if the mat gets pushed under the brake peddle keeping it from working?

SANTEE, Calif. — Four people aboard a runaway car told each other to hold on and pray moments before their 911 call ended in screams and a fiery crash.

The California Highway Patrol released a recording of the call Thursday, detailing the disturbing last seconds of the Aug. 28 crash in which a passenger complained the accelerator was stuck.

Witnesses say a weaving Lexus topped speeds of 120 mph before launching off an embankment and bursting into flames in Santee, in San Diego County.

In the 50-second recording, passenger Chris Lastrella tells the dispatcher, "We're in trouble. There's no brake."

Moments before the crash, the passengers tell each other to "hold on" and "pray."

The victims included CHP Officer Mark Saylor, his wife Cleofe, their 13-year-old daughter Mahala and Lastrella.

The car would travel more than a mile and a half at that speed during a 50 second call.

imidazol97

Leaves a lot of positives about being "behind the times" and having an ignition key to turn off, or just putting the car in neutral.

anythngbutgm

Accelerator was stuck AND the brakes failed? The two are mutually exclusive aren't they?

Let me guess, the Power seat was dead, the sunroof was stuck and the CD player was stuck on a Country Music station... :P

Something doesn't add up here. I call either the floormat or sabotage...

explorerx4

plus the transmission would not downshift.

andre1969

This is almost a flashback to the '65 full-size Chevies! IIRC, there was some kind of defect with the engine mounts on the smallblock V-8, where the driver's side mount would collapse and the engine would shift over, and depending on how bad it shifted, I think it would jam the throttle wide open, jam the linkage for the transmission, and if it shifted over far enough, would shove into the steering and jam that up. I'm not sure, but I guess it might've even been able to mess with the brakes, if it managed to rip a brake line or hose.

I think the only thing it didn't affect was the ignition, so you could at least still turn the car off.

lokki

That broken engine mount jamming the throttle wide open happened to me personally in my 1969 307 Camaro somewhere around 1970 or 71. I was in a gravel parking lot at the time. I was young and foolish and had punched the gas to spin the tires. Then I couldn't stop them from spinning.

The automatic (3 speed) was jammed in gear too since the engine falling over also jammed the shift linkage. The brakes would slow the car, yes, but you couldn't really get them to stall the engine and bring it to a complete halt. I have some sympathy for folks who say the brakes wouldn't stop the car. It was at best a sort of mexican stand-off where everytime I weakened my pedal stomp the car would take off again.

It took me a minute of sliding wildly around (which seemed kind of fun at the time) to figure out that maybe this was a bug and not a feature and then another minute to realize that I could just turn off the ignition. I went around the big parking lot about 3 or 4 times.
Fortunately it was empty . I caught hell from my father, and it wasn't for another year or so after that that GM admitted the problem and had the recall. I still don't think my dad believed that I wasn't really responsible :P I mean it's not like I'd floored the throttle when it happened or anything like that

210delray

I doubt we hear from him again -- appears to be a one-hit wonder troll taking gratuitous potshots at GM as well as Mexicans.

About those Chevrolet engine mounts, IIRC the left (driver side) mount would tend to break when the driver accelerated through a left hand turn. The engine would keel over to the right and the throttle linkage would jam, causing the engine to run at wide-open throttle. In many cases, a crash would occur before the driver had time to react to put on the brakes.

This resulted in one of the largest recalls in automotive history. As I remember, all full-size Chevy cars with the small block V8 (and maybe the big blocks too) were recalled for model years 1965-69. The "fix" wasn't to replace the mount but rather to put a steel cable around the mount, so that if the mount broke, the cable would keep the engine more or less in place. We had a '67 Bel Air at the time, but it had the 250 six, which wasn't affected.

210delray

Yes, it does seem hard to believe that the accelerator pedal was jammed forward while the brake pedal was unresponsive. While I can understand that the push-button ignition switch could be a source of trouble, requiring 3 to 5 seconds to hold down in a panic situation, I really cannot believe the shift lever couldn't be pushed into neutral. So what if the engine blows -- it was a loaner anyway.

I know the enthusiasts will scream, but I have long thought we should electronically limit the top speeds of cars to no more than 5 to 10 mph over the highest speed limits in the US and Canada.

fintail

I have a hard time to believe that everything came together like that too. If it was the mat jamming the pedal, either panic or something else was a major factor in the way things played out. Maybe I overthink things, but I have long had a plan in my head to deal with a stuck accelerator - and I have to believe I would think to look down and see what might be jamming the pedal, and then take other action.

Regarding the limits bit - I won't even get into the problems with the limits themselves, but you'll be just as dead from an 80mph crash as a 100mph crash. I have no doubt 99% + of casualties are from crashes with double digit speeds.