Brand Problems Swept Under The Rug

ateixeira

You reminded me of the mis-stated horsepower figures for the 1999 Mazda Miata and the Ford Mustang Cobra of around the same era.

Not exactly swept under the rug, though.

Ford recalled the cars to add mods and make the actual stated power.

Mazda offered to buy the cars back or give $500 in free accessories.

british_rover

Didn't honda have a misstated power issue back a couple of years ago too?

lemko

....UNDERstate the horsepower ratings on muscle cars as not to drawn the attention of the insurance industry? Why don't they like fun?

ateixeira

I don't recall specifically, perhaps, though.

I do remember when the SAE HP output was instated a lot of Asian makes downrated their power significantly. Toyota's V6 power went from 210hp to 190hp IIRC, a huge difference. Most Hondas also went down in power. Same for Subaru.

I think a lot of cars were downgraded but the Asians seemed to have more than their share of the guilt.

ateixeira

This is new to me:

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/28/reports-of-toyota-rav4-gearbox-woes-mount-as-- owner-anger-grows/

Thanks to rsholland for finding that link.

And this looks like they quietly put out a TSB to dealers in 06, while owners replaced entire transmissions unnecessarily.

stever

Interesting - the Toyota RAV4 Transmission Troubles isn't all that active, but no one with issues has mentioned a TSB before. Thanks for the link, maybe it'll help someone over there.

british_rover

Yeah I just thought that on autoblog myself and was the first I had heard of it.

Really swept under the rug then.

british_rover

BMW still does underrate the HP of their cars. Look at when the BMW 335I came out with the twin turbo motor. BMW claimed 300 hp 300 torque but chassis dynos were rating them 270 plus at the wheels which translates to over 300 at the crank.

imidazol97

>sludge - it's gel.

Sludge by any other name is ...., well...., still sludge.

imidazol97

>They seem to have had a lot of big dollar issues with their vehicles, yet consumers keep letting them off. If they were D3 they'd be getting crucified!

I wanted to say earlier when someone commented on the percent of cars having problems that caused it to become a reputation--I believe that a strong group of supporters can avoid the problem reputation sticking until a higher percentage is reached, for example, how some cars have known problems but generally people still love them and defend them against attack in postings.

ateixeira

How could I forget? There was a YouTube video showing a Ford diesel with what was basically a flame-thrower exhaust. It was hilarious.

Now the headline from Automotive News:

Ford diesel tries, quietly, to silence predecessor's quality issue

That's what I call "Brand problems swept under the rug".

rsholland

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/31/report-toyota-accused-of-ruthless-conspiracy-- to-conceal-dest/

michaellno

The local NBC affiliate here in Denver presented a story last night regarding unintentional deployment of airbags in Honda automobiles.

Investigation into Honda airbags

Supposedly there are 96 complaints on file with the NHTSA, though they feel that this number is "statistically insignificant".

Guess we'll see how this plays out.

ateixeira

Interesting, but SUVs were exempt from roof crush standards until recently.

Also, I'm not sure a lawyer who admittedly suffered from a "mental breakdown" is the best plaintiff.

Let's see how this plays out, though. This is bad PR and surely the type of thing they'd want to sweep under the rug.

ateixeira

First, American Honda agreed to repair the vehicle if Ayan signed a release form that would not let him sue the automaker.

Hmm, what's this thread again?

stever

The NY Times has picked up the AutoBlog RAV4 transmission glitch story.

"some owners are furious at the automaker because it failed to warn them of a serious transmission problem. Had Toyota warned them, they say, they could have avoided expensive repairs."

RAV4 Owners Fume Over Toyota’s Handling of Transmission Glitch

imidazol97

Is this related to the problems with Camry's transmissions with a lag in their shifting?

stever

Dunno, but it's fun to pick on "#1". :shades:

anythngbutgm

Thing is, this #1 has the money to fix its quality glitches and in the end still doesn't have 30+ years of negative perception to overcome

lemko

Give it time.

gagrice

Will Lexus try to cover-up this accident?

Runaway Lexus kills 4!
San Diego, CA—A fiery crash left four people dead after the car’s accelerator became stuck. The fatal crash happened on Friday, August 28, 2009 at 6:30 p.m. at the intersection of Route 125 and Mission Gorge Road in Santee, as reported by San Diego Union Tribune.

According to the California Highway Patrol (CHP), a loaner 2009 Lexus ES 350 driven by CHP Officer Mark Saylor, and three family members experienced a serious malfunction, which caused the accelerator to stick. Someone reportedly dialed 911 around 6:30 p.m. to report the cars accelerator was stuck, and the car could not be stopped while traveling nearly 100 miles per hour. The out-of-control car careened through the intersection of Route 125 and Mission Gorge Road and collided with a Ford Explorer. The Lexus then jumped a curb, plowed through a fence, and then slammed into an embankment before going airborne. The luxury car reportedly overturned several times before it came to a stop and burst into flames in the San Diego River basin. The CHP officer Mark Saylor, 45; his wife, Cleofe, 45; Saylor’s daughter, Mahala, 13; and his brother-in-law, Chris Lastrella were all tragically killed at the scene of the horrific crash.

The car was reportedly loaned from Bob Baker Lexus El Cajon on Friday after Saylor dropped his car off for service. The Lexus is fully equipped with a double redundant fail-safe system, which would shut the vehicle off if it were to experience a major malfunction. No one at Bob Baker Lexus El Cajon knows what went wrong and is currently waiting for the completion of a full investigation. The CHP multidisciplinary Accident Investigation Team and Sheriff’s investigators are conducting the investigation into the runaway vehicle accident.

ES350 kills 4

anythngbutgm

What I don't get is how brakes did nothing to stop or slow the vehicle. :confuse:

fintail

I hope that's not something like the "Acceleration" issues had by Audi 25 years ago...which wasn't exactly a mechanical problem.

Can't a parking brake overcome this?

I'll be curious for updates on that tragedy.

lemko

...threw the car in reverse and dropped the transmission. I'm sure there would've been an ungodly noise before the tranny grenaded.

gagrice

Here are several updates on this accident and others with Lexus.

Toyota, which makes Lexus cars, had recalled the “all weather” floor mats in its 2008 version of that car model because of complaints about them sliding forward and jamming the accelerator. A sales manager at Bob Baker Lexus said he wasn't sure which mats were in the Lexus lent to Saylor.

It's not known whether Saylor, a 19-year CHP officer whose job entails vehicle safety inspections, tried to shut off the engine or put the car in neutral — the two most common ways to slow a vehicle with a stuck accelerator.

Car experts said it's not always that simple.

An electrical or mechanical failure could have made it impossible to shift into neutral, said Daniel Vomhof III, a vehicle accident reconstructionist with La Mesa-based Expert Witness Services.

Shutting off the engine also can be tricky because most modern vehicles then will lock the steering wheel, leaving the driver unable to steer, Vomhof said.

Asked if drivers have a third option, he replied: “Pray a lot.”

Another complication: A report by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that some Lexus drivers with stuck accelerators tried to turn off the car with the engine control button but didn't know the button must be held for three seconds.

The agency's researchers recorded seven crashes, 12 injuries and 40 complaints involving the recalled floor mats in Toyota vehicles.

The researchers also said that when the throttle pedal is fully open unintentionally, some drivers react by hitting the brakes multiple times. This action depletes the vehicle's vacuum-based power assist, and without that assistance, the brakes must be applied with much more force. Continued driving in that manner can result in overheating the brakes, further diminishing their effectiveness.

The accident was a wake-up call for some Lexus owners.

Marcelle Khalil of Del Mar, a pharmacist who drives a 2006 Lexus GS 300, said she had a problem with her accelerator two weeks ago. It stuck as she drove into her employer's parking lot and she narrowly missed a truck before slamming into a curb.

Khalil said she was positive she didn't step on the gas instead of the brake, but began to doubt herself until she read about the Saylors.

“This could happen to anybody,” she said. “I'm scared to drive my car.”

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/sep/01/answers-elusive-fiery-car-cra- sh/

fintail

Turning off the engine but leaving the key in the on position should leave the wheel unlocked, but kill the power steering. A lot better than a crash. But if it was a keyless vehicle, I am not sure. If the transmission was jammed and somehow couldn't be shifted into neutral or another gear, this should be detectable. I find the floormats claim to be doubtful - there's something else behind it.

I was taught to believe (by my dad I think) that a functioning parking brake could always overcome the engine, although it might take a little time. At least to slow the car and crash it at a lower speed.

andre1969

I saw that in an episode of CHiPs, except that it was a 1964 Olds 88. For whatever reason, the driver was going slow on the highway and a Datsun 210 or something similar went to pass, the driver shouted at the Olds "Get a skateboard, you'll go faster", and the Olds driver went off the deep end and rear-ended the Datsun. Then its accelerator pedal got stuck. It also magically lost the brakes at the same time, and the transmission wouldn't shift out of gear, and the ignition wouldn't turn off. And something muffed up the steering, too, so they went out of control, smacked into a bunch of other cars, and then finally regained control, went off on a side-street, and ditched the car. They heard about themselves on the news and how many cars they wrecked, so the next day they got ahold of another old beater, went out on the highway, and tried for more! :surprise:

If you're rolling along at highway speeds, I dunno what putting on the parking brake would do with a newer car, especially if the accelerator pedal is stuck. I know from experience that a 1957 DeSoto will override its parking brake, but I'd like to think we made some progress since then.

Since the parking brake these days is just a mini-drum in the rear, it might actually be less effective than the old parking brakes that worked on the rear brakes of a drum-brake car...or my DeSoto's setup where the thing clamps down on your driveshaft.

Plus, with a FWD car, the rear wheels really don't do anything other than keep the car from dragging its butt. I imagine that since the drive wheels aren't affected, the engine might just have enough power to keep pulling the car along, dragging the rear wheels even if they're locked?

I wonder why the driver of the Lexus didn't try turning the car off, or shifting into Neutral? I imagine a new car is too "smart" to let you downshift at too high of a speed, or sacrifice it by shifting into reverse.

gagrice

If everything is under electronic computer control it may be difficult if it scrambles its brains. Also we were experiencing 109 plus heat that day. Could it fry a control computer sending it into lala land? It is a big deal here in San Diego when a CHP gets killed. I am sure they will try to get to the bottom. Also why would it burst into flames on impact? Eye witnesses all claim it burst into flames when it hit the embankment. Lexus has some explaining to do on this one. Here are pictures of what looks like a melted car. What a horrible way to die.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local-beat/CHP-Officer-Family-Killed-in-Crash-56- 629472.html

fintail

D'oh....FWD vs RWD slipped my mind.

I remember once when I was a new driver, I drove my uncle's early production run Taurus "L", and I drove for a couple miles with the brake on, because something odd like the steering wheel rim or a spoke or something blocked the idiot light (and he set set the brake with the car parked on perfectly level ground). Anyway, I had noticed it was driving really sluggishly - but it was able to drive anyway. I then noticed the light was on. Oops.

I do know my fintail has a hard time moving more than about 1mph with the brake set, but it's not exactly a high torque engine.

I remember when I was in school a friend of mine bought a very early Focus - he must have got it in October or November of 99. It had a sticky throttle problem, and twice on the highway it stuck, and he had to turn the car off to avoid problems. This car later ended up being bought back after a lemon law case.

I suspect the Lexus horror has to do with a throttle malfunction combined with a transmission fault, or it not being able to be overriden at speed.

The craziest things always happened on CHiPS... :shades: ...also the only place where freeway traffic is always moving at 30mph to make the impending chase and crash look more dramatic.

fintail

With the wreck being burned, it'll probably be more difficult to determine the cause. Hopefully something can be determined and prevented for the future, it's a real tragedy.

The fire seems very unusual...I know other companies send a fleet of investigators to severe crashes...Toyota should too, and be forthcoming with the results.

andre1969

Also why would it burst into flames on impact? Eye witnesses all claim it burst into flames when it hit the embankment. Lexus has some explaining to do on this one.

Well this is just a guess on my part, but that impact with the Explorer probably did enough damage under the hood of the Lexus to spray flammable fluids all over the place, including on the hot engine. And if that didn't do it, then smashing through the fence, going airborne over the embankment, and smashing up in the ravine could have very well spread oil, gasoline, transmission fluid, etc all about. And if it landed in dry brush, that would just add fuel to the fire.

ateixeira

Definitely not - the Camry's 6 speed (U660E) is not even related to Toyota's old 5 speed auto (U151E).

That RAV4 had a 4 speed auto so there's no way the 4 speed and 6 speed are related. They are 2 generations apart, actually.

Yes people love to pick on #1. I own a Sienna and I'm seeing lots of that in the Toyota threads.

ateixeira

Not criticizing you, Gary, but rather the article...

Option 1 is shift to neutral.

Option 2 is shut off the engine.

Option 3 is pray.

Did anybody else notice that they didn't include BRAKING as an option? DUH!

Seriously....

Audi was unfairly targeted but the cars were such junk most people believed it.

Modern cars are throttle-by-wire, but the brake system is still hydraulic and independent. With an electrical failure you might lose power brakes, but the hydraulic fluid would still pump and you could still stop or at least slow the car.

Carpets can and do get stuck on accelerator pedals and may have blocked the brake pedal as well.

I'm just shocked they didn't list braking as an option at all. :sick:

gagrice

I'm just shocked they didn't list braking as an option at all

It is hard to imagine that would not be the first thing a person would try if the throttle goes wide open. I know that is what I would try first. The researchers claim that may not be enough. Also the goofy keyless ignition could be problematic. If you have to hold it for 3 seconds while traveling 100+ MPH. Especially in a vehicle you are not familiar with. Not sure what model Lexus he had in for service. How far do you travel at 100 MPH in 3 seconds?

210delray

In 3 seconds, you'd go 150 ft (not that far). The brakes of any modern car are supposed to overcome the torque of any engine. I can't see why standing on the brakes wouldn't eventually stop the car. If I couldn't turn off the engine or shift into neutral because of some interlock, I'd also try scraping along a guardrail or Jersey barrier to take off some speed.

This whole sudden acceleration thing has been a bug-a-boo for years, long before drive-by-wire. It almost sunk Audi in the US. I tend to think that it's a case of people flooring the gas when they think they are on the brakes.

There is one sure-fire solution: a clutch pedal!

ateixeira

Plus you're not starting at 100mph. You should be within speed limits, so even on an arrow-straight highway that would be 75mph.

It takes far more than 3 seconds to accelerate from 75 to 100 mph, so there's no way you'd hit that speed.

Here's what really happened:

* he was way above the speed limit
* he went for the brake and got the throttle instead, pure driver error
* crash

Just because he's an officer doesn't mean he doesn't speed. When was the last time you saw a police car driving the speed limit?

Never?

Same here.

The same way Mr. Environment Al Gore's son drives his Prius over 100 mph, it's do as I say, not as I do.

ateixeira

Anyone familiar with this area...?

The out-of-control car careened through the intersection of Route 125 and Mission Gorge Road

I wonder what the speed limit there is.

They say it was going nearly 100mph, if so we could look at the acceleration figures from whatever the speed limit was up to 100mph.

Bingo, per MotorTrend:

0-30 mph 2.5 sec
0-40 3.6
0-50 5.0
0-60 6.5
0-70 8.4
0-80 10.4
0-90 13.0
0-100 16.1

That means if the speed limit on that road is 30mph, he would have had a whopping 13.6 seconds to try any things to stop.

Even at 40mph he would have had 12 and a half seconds.

That's an eternity.

Now, here's what really happened. He was doing 80 in a 40, fearless because he knows cops do not ticket other cops. He probably saw a yellow light and floored it, and hit that Explorer. After that, all bets are off, the throttle probably did get stuck.

How's that for a counter-conspiracy theory?

imidazol97

Does Toyota put in a black box to record what the car was doing in the time before the crash?

gagrice

I think it was going at a high rate of speed for quite a distance. His wife had enough time to call 911 and tell the dispatch their situation. The location this happened is Freeway and downhill at a pretty steep grade. The Freeway ends at Mission Gorge rd in a T with a light. Across from there is the San Diego River bed that they ended up in. It is a very busy intersection with 3 lanes turning right and one lane turning left. You can easily get going down that hill to 70 MPH coasting in neutral. I cannot imagine a 19 year veteran of the CHP not trying all the obvious solutions.

This is not a first for that model and year. Here is an example reported to the NHTSA that is quite similar with a better ending. Will Toyota try to sweep this under the rug?

LEXUS ES 350 HAD UNCONTROLLED ACCELERATOR CAUSING SPEEDS IN EXCESS OF 90 MILES PER HOUR UNTIL CAR WAS FORCED OUT OF GEAR. WITHOUT ATTEMPTS TO ACCELERATE THE CAR TOOK OVER AND SPED OUT OF CONTROL. CRUISE CONTROL WAS NOT ENGAGED AND BRAKES WOULD NOT SLOW THE VEHICLE. I CALLED 911 AND THEY TOLD ME TO PUT THE CAR IN NEUTRAL WHICH CAUSED THE RPMS TO RACE OUT OF CONTROL. THE CAR THEN WENT INTO REVERSE BY ITSELF UNTIL I SLAMMED IT INTO PARK. THE DEALER CAME AND PICKED UP THE CAR AS IT WAS UNSAFE TO DRIVE. FORTUNATELY THIS OCCURRED ON THE FREEWAY AND I HAD ROOM TO MANEUVER AND MISS CARS AND OBSTACLES. HAD THIS OCCURRED ANYWHERE ELSE I WOULD BE IN THE HOSPITAL. *TR

isellhondas

I get a feeling sometimes that people expect cars to last forever.

In the "old days" getting 100,000 miles out of an engine or transmission were unheard of. Now, if a transmission fails at 85,000, it's a HUGE problem!

As far as Toyota's sludge problem, it only happened to people who stretched their oil changes.

Honda CRV's rarely have A/C compressor problems but when one fails, people flock to these forums to tell their sad tales of woe. I have NEVER heard of a CRV pulling to the right nor have the guys in our shop.

The fires were caused by dumb people who didn't bother to make sue the old gasket didn't stick to the block as they sometimes do.

Audi almost went out of business when the 5000's were blamed for unintended accelration. Pure rubbish as was proved after the damage had been done.

oldfarmer50

"...In the "old days" getting 100,000 miles out of an engine or transmission were unheard of..."

I got 158,000 miles out of a 69' Plymouth that I beat like a borrowed mule. It was still running when I sold it for $100. 100K miles is the LEAST I expect from a car before major issues.

If my tranny failed at 85K I would be PO'ed big time.

gagrice

Could it be Karma? Will CBS do a 60 Minutes special on Lexus sticking accelerators as they did on Audi?

In 1989, after three years of studying the blatantly obvious, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) issued their report on Audi's "sudden unintended acceleration problem." NHTA's findings fully exonerated Audi and some other implicated foreign makes.

The report concluded that the Audi's pedal placement was different enough from American cars' normal set-up (closer to each other) to cause some drivers to mistakenly press the gas instead of the brake. 60 Minutes did not retract their piece; they called the NHTSA report "an opinion."

A flood of lawsuits was already washing over Audi, not to mention a tsunami of bad publicity. Audi took a questionable stance: they didn't blame the drivers for the problem, even after the NHTSA report came out. Hey, the customer's always right, and we sure wouldn't want to make our American customers look stupid. Anything but that.

So the German automaker took it on the chin. Audi sales collapsed, from 74k units in 1984 to 12k by 1991. The timing added insult to injury; sales fell during the same years when Lexus arrived to battle for the hearts and wallets of America's up-scale consumers. The Japanese autos quickly became the new suburban driveway prestige weapon.

isellhondas

That was a lot of miles in those days.

The 318 and 383 engines were pretty tough and the Torqueflights were the best on the market at that time. Even a TH 400 probably would have needed an overhaul around 100K.

I'm surprised you didn't need at least a valve job and I would guess you were going through quite a bit of oil towards the end.?

isellhondas

I didn't realize the damage had been that bad.

Given the reliability of Audi's back then the accelration "problem" should have been the least of their problems.

gagrice

My 1974 Dodge van with the 318 went 107k before the engine was in need of an overhaul. I did the transmission at the same time as it was a big job. The indy shop in Albuquerque charged me $1700 to overhaul both in 1984. It was a waste of money as that is all I could get for it later that year. I was not thinking with all the rust it had from MN salt. Overall that was a good vehicle that used about a quart for every 600 miles from just about the time it was new.

isellhondas

That would have been pretty typical for those times.

318's were very good engines. Others would have been tired long before those miles.

Wow...1700.00! As I recall, shop labor was about 15.00/hr back then.

Now, it's over 100.00.

gagrice

In 3 seconds, you'd go 150 ft (not that far).

I think it is about 150 feet per second at 100 MPH. So more like 450 feet. Did I read that you actually have to hold that button for 5 seconds to shut down the vehicle. I will use a key thank you.

gagrice

When I picked up the van he said he would never bid that low again. It was a real bugger to work on. It was a small shop and he needed the work. He did a good job and I drove it to my home in Lake Havasu and parked it till it was sold. I had just bought a new 84 full sized Bronco which is still one of my favorite vehicles that I ever owned. Never in the shop except for service.

210delray

Oops,.you're right. I forgot to multiply by 3.

explorerx4

you could be onto something there, maybe the 911 call was made due to the car traveling at high speed due to the driver, and the caller was trying to get them (the driver) to slow down.