doesn't your wife drive a Lexus sedan? Are you guys worried about your Lexus doing this?
Wow...what a completely horrible tragedy. I am for the idea that the 911 call was truly a call for help, that the cop was having a bad time trying to unstick the accelerator, the mat was stuck under there, or the car's computer was not working to turn the motor off...at least not fast enough.
Yeah, as part of my Dad's manual tranny training he drummed in to my head the fact that the parking brake can stop or at least slow down the rig in an emergency, actually, I think it was my Driver's Ed teacher that drummed that one in. Along with a lot of attempted old-school braking in a frantic manner. And pushing the motor shut-off button. 5 seconds, eh?
Horrible news, I'm gonna be coming back here to learn more along with everyone else interested in hearing what went wrong with the car's mechanicals and/or what lack of driving skills might have been involved here(in all due respect for the departed, of course). Horrible tragedy here.
i doubt if gagrace's Lexus has a 'drive by wire' throttle. it's just too old, like my mustang. had to have my emissions test done on a roller dyno. newer cars have OBD II, which can be tested by plugging into the computer access port.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Real professional outfit eh? And they have such a huge ad budget they can afford to spam on CarSpace. (Actually they were spamming us from China; you should be flattered).
I looked it up online. If you go to the maps on Bing.com, probably google maps as well, and type in "Mission Gorge Road, San Diego CA, you'll find the road, and you can just move around until you find where 125 comes in.
125 is a north-south highway. Not an interstate, but still limited-access, so I'm guessing a 55 mph speed limit? Maybe even 60-65? It's a fairly straight highway, except for a broad curve about a mile from the end, where it goes around a college campus. It's 5 lanes going North, but about 1/4 mile from the end, the two right-most lanes are an exit that banks off gently to the right, but then crosses up and over 125, going West, and becomes 52, which looks like another limited access road that goes around the congestion. The remaining three lanes continue North, and toward the end, the left-most lane splits into two more. At the intersection of Mission Gorge, two lanes turn left, and two lanes turn right. 125 ends at Mission Gorge, and comes into it perpendicular. On the other side there's a broad dirt/sand shoulder, and then a man-made berm that appears to have a cut in it, most likely for drainage, and it lines up fairly well with the north bound lanes of 125. So if you didn't stop, and aimed right, you could go right through that cut in the berm, and end up in a small, man-made ravine on the other side, strewn with boulders.
I'm guessing that intersection is one that backs up really bad, so this cop was zipping through the traffic, using all 5 lanes, to try to get ahead of as many cars as possible before he got to the light, and that's when the accelerator pedal got stuck.
What the map does not show is the fact that there is now a stop light at that intersection. Most of the traffic is turning right onto Mission Gorge rd. It is just a surface street. It also does not show just how steep that freeway is ending at the intersection. As far as speed you will get run over going under 70 MPH on most of that freeway. I think the accelerator was stuck for several miles. For the wife to call 911 and give as much information as she did. Keeping in mind they are going 100-120 MPH according to witnesses & her call.
According to the CHP Forum, the were following the incident on CAD (computer aided dispatch). I am not sure how many cameras are along that stretch of freeway. It does not sound like it was a last second screw-up caused by the driver. No one wants to believe their drive by wire can go berserk. There are too many reports of that happening to ignore them. It takes an incident like this to get the auto makers to listen.
If you are looking at the Bing Birdseye view of that intersection at 125 and Mission Gorge it should be at 60 yard scale. That means the distance you see there in one screen shot is about how far that car traveled in about 4 seconds. Where you see the 125 marker is about where it levels out. And the intersection is perfectly level ground. It looks like he headed for the left turn lanes as they rarely have any traffic. That is an extremely busy intersection most of the day. It was on a Friday evening which is about as busy as it gets. If he lives in Ramona he would be turning right to get home. There is really not much down the other direction. If he was in a Porsche 911 he could make that turn at 100 MPH. Not in a wallowing ES350. So far no more news on the accident. I am sure it will take a while to sort out what they know.
This according to the Washington Times regarding a 2005 fatal school bus crash:
A 2005 school bus accident that killed two people and injured 23 elementary students in Missouri occurred because the driver likely stepped on the accelerator instead of the brake, according to a National Transportation Safety Board investigation.
The NTSB determined that "pedal misapplication" in the crash in Liberty, Mo., and four others since then involving large vehicles likely led to the accidents. After studying, those accidents, the safety board approved recommendations Tuesday urging the government to require that new buses and large vehicles have equipment installed forcing the driver to press the brake to shift the automatic transmission out of park.
The NTSB also approved recommendations for the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to develop pedal designs for the larger vehicles that make it easier to distinguish the brake from the accelerator. "They have required changes in passenger cars to address unintended acceleration. It is time for them to focus on commercial vehicles," NTSB Chairwoman Deborah Hersman said.
Again, this is a hydraulic fluid system that is not drive-by-wire, so it's isolated from electrical glitches with the throttle.
We're talking about two seperate systems failing completely at exactly the same time.
Braking is much stronger than acceleration, so even without power brakes boosting you, I think they should still "slow the vehicle".
Call me a skeptic, but I just think the carpeted mats got in the way is a more likely theory, because that could explain both a stuck throttle and a blocked brake pedal.
Or "pedal misapplication" as mentioned above, at least in some of those cases.
isell: beats me, but the PTTR issue was from the CR-V guys here on Edmunds.
Exactly -- so many of those prior "sudden acceleration" reports claimed that the brakes failed at the same time the gas pedal got stuck. Yet, when the brakes were examined afterward (in cars that weren't totally destroyed), they still worked perfectly fine.
You know that is a real stretch for a seasoned Highway Patrolman. A distracted soccer mom maybe so. Holding your foot down on the accelerator for a long period of time and not letting off is not going to happen. Most of the lurches through the back of the garage I will give you. Not traveling at 100 MPH+ for a quite a long distance. Though I am sure Lexus is hoping you are right. Or that some bumbling idiot at Bob Baker Lexus did not put one of the floor mats in that were recalled for just that problem.
Seasoned, yes, but he was in an unfamiliar loaner car, probably with those rubber all-weather mats.
Here's an interesting factoid - I got some of those mats for my Miata. Mazda's rubber mats tell you to remove the carpeted mats if you have them. You can't put the rubber ones on top. The rubber mats also have anchors to prevent them from sliding forward and interfering with the pedals.
If that Lexus dealer just slapped on 2 layers and there were not supposed to, that would have contributed. Anyone have a Lexus with all-weather mats? Do they have holes for those anchors, like Mazda?
Let me look for a pic of those mats, I'll report back...
Owners of 2007 and 2008 Lexus ES 350 models and certain other Toyota vehicles are being urged to make sure the driver-side, “All Weather” floor mats are properly secured
I've said all along this is what I suspect happened, and I think it's even more likely now.
if unsecured, the mats being recalled can slip forward and trap the accelerator pedal, causing the vehicle to accelerate uncontrollably
My Mazda came with very, very clear instructions to remove the carpeted ones, and hook the anchors on these. In fact Mazda added an extra sheet of paper in the shipment to make sure I did that.
Must be more common than I thought.
This is pretty much what I said about my Miata:
make sure the driver-side floor mat is properly secured to the retention hooks on the floorboard. Also, never overlay two mats on top of each other because the retention hooks cannot secure the top-most mat which can then can slip and trap the accelerator pedal.
Sounds like the dealer would be at fault if the recall was not performed on their loaner car. Especially since the dealer installed those mats.
I could see this being a problem in any loaner car, even if the mats are of the proper type and only a single mat is used (not one on top of the other). No doubt the lowest guy on the totem pole gets to clean up and vacuum these cars when they're returned, and it seems highly likely that the mats wouldn't always be properly secured -- just thrown back in.
The retention hooks are a relatively new concept, although my '98 Frontier has them. I'm sure a lot of "old school" guys couldn't be bothered with them.
Seems like a more idiot-proof design would be to use Velcro pads on all 4 corners of the mat, like some of the European makes do.
I can't believe no one mentioned the Ford tranny's dropping into reverse from park. I worked at a dealer back in the early 70's and pulled up to park an LTD. Put the beast in park, the car moved a bit and the parking pawl 'clicked' in. I was waiting for someone and all of a sudden, the car shifted into reverse and started backing up! All Ford ended up doing at that time was put a sticker on the instrument panel stating "Do not leave vehicle running in park"
Chrysler FWD tranny. If you got a good one, it worked forever. A bad one, rebuild at every 40K. Or less. Dad has a 2000 Town and Country with the 3.3L. Drives it like a little old man.(he's 88, so I guess that makes sense) 118K miles, three complete rebuilds.
'66 Ford Mustang. Rust, brakes, shifter, ahh, nevermind.
Olds 350, great engine. But the early version had a curved bypass hose on the thermostat housing. When the hose blew (and it did regularly) the sudden decompression sucked the seal out of the waterpump shaft. Olds finally started retrofitting with a curved aluminum pipe and a straight piece of hose, fixing the problem.
S10 door hinge pins. When every parts house in America stocks three sets, you know you have a problem. Water coming from the door channel dumps right on the pins, taking out the lube. This one should have been caught early on. All you have to do is trim back the gasket in the door about two inches. The door will still seal, and the water runoff will miss the hinge.
Chevy rear axle seals. A 60K replacement item.
Honda AC "Black Death" Compressor comes apart, the pieces mix with the oil, and the whole system is trashed. Learned about this one from the Honda service manager. He was really getting tired of telling customers the repair would be over 2K, and Honda wouldn't cover anything if the car was over 12K miles.
Honda AC "Black Death" Compressor comes apart, the pieces mix with the oil, and the whole system is trashed. Learned about this one from the Honda service manager. He was really getting tired of telling customers the repair would be over 2K, and Honda wouldn't cover anything if the car was over 12K miles.
I had to laugh at that one, albeit a remorseful sort of laugh, because that's what happened to my 2000 Intrepid earlier this year. And guess what? It uses the same a/c compressor as a Honda Accord! Admittedly, mine was kinda my fault though. I knew it had a freon leak, and was getting weak, but I was going to try to make it through the winter and get it recharged in the spring. Didn't quite make it. One day in February, I had the defroster going, when suddenly I heard a horrible squealing noise from under the hood and the car almost stalled out. I was less than 1/2 mile from home, and was able to make it home, but by then there was smoke pouring from under the hood, and the smell of burnt rubber from the belt rubbing against the seized a/c compressor pulley.
And yep, whole system was pretty much trashed, although mine "only" set me back about $1300.
Just out of curiosity, why is it that some a/c compressors contaminate the whole system when they seize up, but others don't? Just something in the design?
Was the compressor a Nippon-Denso? I recall Chrysler had their own inhouse system called Airtemp at one time. Heck, I've seen household window units with the Chrysler-Airtemp nameplate on them.
My dad had one of those T&Cs, and I think he lost his first tranny before 10K miles. As he lived in a small town with a semi-competent dealer, they had no fleet of loaners, so he got to use a worn old Celebrity as a loaner car. He wasn't thrilled.
>He was really getting tired of telling customers the repair would be over 2K, and Honda wouldn't cover anything if the car was over 12K miles. :P :mad: :sick:
That made my day! The company, maker of perfect cars, currently advertising that their clearance sale is the "Only thing by Honda that WON'T last." !!!!!!!!! All cars have some problems, but compressors along with transmissions... this is like the class bully getting smashed by a nerd.
> I think he lost his first tranny before 10K miles.
My GM service manager when talking about my first 4-speed auto in my Buick, said Chrysler had trouble because of poor lubricant cooling due to low engine speeds in 4th gear in driving. So he said use 3rd until you're moving at highway speeds. I told that to a co-worker who was on his third T&C transmission.
I was going to bring up some Fiat issues, but that's just not fair. To make such beautiful cars (lambo, ferrari, etc) some stuff coming out of Italy would have been better used as beer cans.
I want to say he said something about plastic gears failing :confuse: ....but I can't recall. The thing was relatively trouble-free other than the transmission issue.
Back in 2001, I was talking with my old mechanic (since retired, and I go to a different place now) and a customer who had a late 80's/early 90's Caravan that had well over 200K miles, and was still on the original engine... a Mitsubishi 3.0 I believe. However, it was also on something like its 3rd transmission! The dealership he bought it from wanted to use it in their advertising, but he said the only way he'd do it was if it had a banner on the side that said "Seabrook Garage Kept This Car Running!". Obviously, the dealership didn't pursue that idea any further.
Oh, and speaking of Mopar transmissions, that reminds me...my Intrepid is due soon! It'll probably hit 150,000 miles this month, and I like to do it every 30,000 miles...regardless of what the owner's manual says!
How long ago was this supposed to have taken place. Honda has had a 3 year 36,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty that does cover the AC compressor for as long as I can remember.
Maybe they had a 12/12 warranty back in the early 80s and I wouldn't remember that obviously as I was five.
Honda AC units are usually pretty easy to get to. I guess maybe if you really had to replace the whole system, compressor, evaporator, accumulator I mean absolutely everything and the lines too then maybe you could total up 2,000 dollars but that still seems high.
Isell, this was a statement from the service manager several years ago. How long has Honda covered AC compressors for 3/36? I know GM just started doing that in the last few. The GM warranty on AC used to be a straight 12mos.
His explanation to me was that the issue was the oil used in the system. Everybody gets the same freon, and there are always good and bad parts. It was the combination of the oil and the mechanical failure that plugged up the evaporator, drier, and condensor to the point they couldn't be cleared and had to be replaced. Turned into a black goo.
A simple compressor replacement with no other issues will run close to $1K here in central Texas. A GM compressor replacement (with drier, required) runs $800 to $1000. I just had to write the check for one, and the best deal I could get using an AC Delco compressor was $805.
This problem was most pronounced in the 2000-2004 model years. From a Honda technician: "As a Honda Technician, “Black Death” happens to all cars no matter of the make or model. “Black Death” is caused by the compressor seizing and metal shavings being pushed through the lines via refrigerant. All rubber hoses, evaporator, condenser, expansion valve & compressor needs to be replaced. The only things that can stay are solid metal lines. (They can be flushed out). Failure to replace all components will cause remaining metallic particles to be carried through and premature failure."
The root cause was a production run of compressors suffering premature failure. I won't address the 12K warranty issue as it came from a Honda service manager, not me. But there is a lot of documentation on "Black Death" relating to Honda, and not just in the internet chat rooms.
Honda may have had compressor problems years ago, I don't know. I didn't start with Honda until 1995.
Compressors can go bad in different ways. If the explode internally than the metal will contaminate the system and various components will have to be replaced.
This doesn't happen often and this would apply to any car.
from isell: "Everything get's aver blown in internet forums."
On that I have to agree. From the forums I have read, every 4.3L GM ever built has blown and intake manifold by 60K miles. Except the four that I have owned, one of which is currently at 94K, the other at 82K.
Oh, and people were burned to death in Fiero's that would just burst into flames. Yeah, if you never checked the fluid levels, or noted that slow drip of coolant in the driveway. Funny thing, that issue. I knew lots of Fiero owners (mine was a brand new, '84 SE, loaded) and none of us had the problem. The most fun part of my job is doing root cause analysis on failures. Though not in the auto business anymore, this issue caught my attention and I researched to see what the RCA turned out to be. A supplier started shipping a motor mount bolt that was fractionally longer than what was specified. At around the same time, the depth of thread in the cast iron block was very slightly lessened. The two combined would cause the tip of the motor mount bolt to "bottom out" in the block, and over time the stress could cause a crack to form in the water jacket, and a slow coolant loss. Unfortunately, the drip was right over the exhaust system. There were far fewer fires than the "legend" would lead you to believe, because *most* folks notice when there is a green trail of coolant in the drive way or garage.
The only problems I had with my Fiero were dealer induced during maintenance. We had a saying here in the Austin area: Fiero's and Ferrari's have something in common; you can't get either one repaired in Austin."
A good friend who was the service manager at a Pontiac store heard that I was looking at an '88 GT to purchase. The car was in perfect shape, about four years old. He looked me in the eye and said "If you buy that car and bring it here for service, you will not be my friend anymore." Sheesh, those guys hated Fieros!
I have owned a lot of cars that were "trouble prone" that never caused me any trouble at all.
I also think misery loves company and in the "problems" forums people love to jump in with their "me too" stories. This isn't to say that these problems aren't real but to a person who is thinking about buying a car, this can scare them away from what may be a great car for them.
About three years ago, I reluctanly sold our next door neighbors a VW Jetta for their daughter. I tried to steer them toward a used Honda, Toyota and a nice Mazda we had at the time but, nope, she had to have the VW.
At the time, I strongly suggest buying a warranty which they did and I told them that I didn't want to hear about it if it caused troubles and I haven't.
Has it been a good car? I don't know. I haven't asked.
On that I have to agree. From the forums I have read, every 4.3L GM ever built has blown and intake manifold by 60K miles. Except the four that I have owned, one of which is currently at 94K, the other at 82K.
Hmm, that's one I'd never heard before. I was always under the impression that the 4.3 was a good, sturdy engine...just not the most refined thing in the world. My uncle has a '97 Silverado with the 4.3 and probably has around 120,000 miles on it, and I have a friend with a 2005 4.3 that's probably around 110,000. If you get too used to the sound of a V-8, those 90-degree V-6es do sound rough, like they're misfiring or something, but that's the only complaint I really have.
Now if you want to talk transmissions, that's another story! The 4L60E or whatever it's called in my uncle's Silverado was rebuilt twice. First under an extended warranty he bought, and then a couple years ago, around 108,000 miles when it lost reverse and two of the forward gears. The guy at the transmission shop said that the three most common vehicles he sees come in for replacement are Ford Explorers, Mopar minivans, and GM 1/2 tons. One reason for that, though, could be that there are plenty of examples of all three running around, so just more of them to potentially break. It made me feel kinda good though, when he said that it was fairly rare for them to see an Intrepid that needed a rebuild.
There was an issue with the sun gear (?) on some 4L60E trannys. It has been addressed in other technical bulletins, but it is another one of those where as you said, will show up more often because there is a gazillion of them out there. Pretty much everything GM built in the last 10-15 years that was RWD and rated at 1/2 ton or less used a 4L60E, or a variation thereof. Lordy, I don't know how may of those I have had, maybe six? Change the oil and filter every few years or 60K miles and just keep going.
On all vehicles, all brands, styles, and capabilities, the key to longevity is maintenance. I always tell my non-automotive buds, "Oil is the cheapest thing you will ever change on your engine. And, if ignored, will cause the most expensive repairs you will ever have on that same engine."
I can say from experience that at one time when the whole tranny thing was going on, I personally knew 12 people with V6 cars, high mileage once at that, that never had a problem with their tranny, nor did any of them (except 1 who had a whistle noise about a month after she got her van, might have been something competely unrelated) have a replacement.
I had an MDX that I drove till 120k and never had a problem, my father had one of the first MDX's that he drove till 150k I think. I have family members who still have their Accords, Odysseys and Acura TL/CL. 200k plus on those puppies. Still original tranny.
Kid here at work was stranded back in July with a dead battery. Claims it was the first thing to go wrong on his V6 Accord (2001) and it was at 200,000 and change mileage-wise.
I'm not surprised, but let's remember than an acceptable failure rate is probably, what 1%? 3% tops? Depends on the part and costs, I suppose.
So even if we see, say, a 6% failure rate, that's completely unacceptable. People flip out, join forums, and complain until they are blue in the face.
Looking at the other side of the coin, that means 94% of owners will be perfectly happy and have no problems whatsoever.
Still, what counts is that 6% is much more than usual.
My numbers are purely fictional but the point is the same. If 5% is normal failure rates and 10% of anything breaks, that's bad, even though 90% of them are perfect.
Subarus were notorious for eating head gaskets, but my family owned 5 affected models and none ever had a problem. Keep in mind with a boxer engine that means TEN head gaskets were perfect. We still have 3 of those 5 cars, a decade+ old now and 6 perfectly sealed head gaskets.
I think we can't look at small samples (i.e. the ones we own) and conclude they're reliable.
Well,CR reports a 17% tranny failure rate for 99-03 Honda Odyssey`s.That`s a very high failure rate.But the newer re05 redesign onwards seems to be holding up much better.
Still, as scary as that sounds, a grand majority of 83% had no problem at all.
6 Ody owners walk in to a bar (sounds like the beginning of a joke ), only 1 of them had the problem, the other 5 have no idea what he's talking about.
I think Consumer Reports rates a 5-9% failure rate as "average". They used to call the 9-14% range "worse than average, but the last time I looked through an issue they now call it "fair".
In the overall scheme of things, a 4.9% failure rate and a 9.1% failure rate really aren't THAT far apart, even if one's almost double the other. But the 4.9% would be rated "Better than Average", which sounds like it's leaps and bounds better than "Worse than Average".
I guess those CR rates are just for that given year though. So if a given model has a failure rate of, say, 5% every year, then over the course of 6 years, 30% of them have failed (probably less since some might have failed more than once).
The thing that tends to bother me about a car's reliability is when I start to see patterns. Such as my uncle's pickup that needed two tranny rebuilds, or when the transmission in my Mom & stepdad's '91 Stanza started dying around 90,000 miles, and then the one in their '99 Altima was finished at 35,000. To its credit though, that car now has about 300,000 miles on it, so tranny #2 more than redeemed itself. Or the three 1979 Chryslers I've had with temperature warning lights that had to be possessed. They'd come on seemingly at random, and at times when the engine couldn't possibly be overheating, such as, umm, warming up on a cold winter morning? Plus, they had real gauges in addition to the lights, and the gauges would always read normal.
Those numbers and ratings are more significant than JD Power's, though.
I can't recall the specifics, but Honda did very well (Top 3 IIRC?), and Saturn was way back in 26th place, something like that, and the actual difference was something like 0.2 problems per vehicle.
And that's mostly small stuff, not transmission failure.
Has there ever been a minivan that has had stellar reliability, or el perfecto quality throughout its life?
The closest I can think of is the Toyota Sienna, but even it was under investigation for the Sludging as well as power door failures. The Caravan (mentioned above) for trannys, ditto the Ody. The Quest might be the winner here actually...
Even the Koreans, which you don't hear much about have had some serious transmission problems in their lifetimes.
I honestly gotta side with isell on this, I don't think owners of minivans have any real pride in their ownership (no offense to those owners out there). It's more of a tool, use it until you can't use it no more. The kids are going to most likely grow up in it, spill food and drinks in it, take many long road trips loaded to the gills with crap and probably be left "put away soaking wet" as they say.
I mean really, when was the last time you saw somebody out with a PorterCable and a set of buffing pads polishing up their minivan
Maybe there is a reason why Ford and Government Motors ceeded the market.
Back a few years ago I pull into work one day and there is a SC Range Rover Sport with a 25 or so foot enclosed race trailer attached to it.
Both have Florida plates.
Now I don't know exactly how much that particular trailer with race car weighed but I know that one of my old employees had a trailer like that and a sub 9 sec Camaro. With the trailer, Camaro, all the tools, spare parts and tires he totaled out over 10,000 lbs.
The Sport only has a 7,700 lbs tow rating. Even if the race car was pretty light it was probably over 8,000 lbs combined weight.
People just don't think about that unfortunately. The guy said oh yeah it tows great you hardly feel it back there. With the air suspension and over 400 horsepower and drives fine at 75 mph. :surprise: I am sure the transmission is feeling it. :sick:
Personally, I wouldn't tow over 2000lbs with ANY fwd minivan. Now, the Astro/Safari was another story. Those vans have a complete 1/2 ton running gear under them, and are only limited by the power of the 4.3L v6. Not unusual at all around here to see those old beasts with way north of 100K and still going strong.
Always wondered why GM didn't keep those around. Bigger than a mini, but smaller than the bigun's, and could carry 8 plus luggage with good interior space.
Then again, no one ever confused GM's marketing with brilliance. :P
Known issues? Crankshafts would break on the first generation, I just cleaned the throttle on mine for the 4th or 5th time (every 30k or so like clockwork....). And the door lock actuators had to be replaced on my generation van. And the window switch carbons up.
The ones built by Nissan in Mississippi (mine was assembled by Ford) were pretty awful. Good drivetrains though.
On the Honda fronts I did have an Ody transmission issue but Honda took care of it just fine and I was only out of the van two days with a loaner Exploder.
I had my first AC issue on a Honda ever and did have to replace the condenser, evaporator and dryer. This, however, happened at 171K. I can't call that defective, though if they gave me an accurate estimate (independent mechanic) I might have decided it was time to move to the next car. Now I'll take it at least to the next timing belt.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I wouldn't use a buffer on the best and most expensive car that I own, let alone a minivan - only hand washing and waxing for me. The only minivan I owned was a new 1994 Grand Caravan ES purchased in July '94 for $27K, and it was an extremely nice vehicle. Sold in in January 2007 with over 165K and unbelievably, the 4 speed ECT still worked like a champ (changed ATF every 24K). Anyway, I waxed that vehicle once a month, and it looked like new when I sold it. Once a car guy, always a car guy - regardless what you drive.
But, I would agree with you - most minivan owners treat their vehicle like an kitchen appliance.
I had an Odyssey transmission failure too. In my case it definitely was not as a result of abuse or lack of maintenance. It failed in a rare way unlike most of the Odyssey transmission failures.
In any case it did not actually let me down, I was able to drive it to the dealership. The dealer replaced it in a single day. I can't complain at the way that Honda handled that issue or any of the others that I had with that vehicle.
While Honda may not publicize these issues (and why should they?) they certainly don't sweep them under the carpet either.
Comments
Wow...what a completely horrible tragedy. I am for the idea that the 911 call was truly a call for help, that the cop was having a bad time trying to unstick the accelerator, the mat was stuck under there, or the car's computer was not working to turn the motor off...at least not fast enough.
Yeah, as part of my Dad's manual tranny training he drummed in to my head the fact that the parking brake can stop or at least slow down the rig in an emergency, actually, I think it was my Driver's Ed teacher that drummed that one in. Along with a lot of attempted old-school braking in a frantic manner. And pushing the motor shut-off button. 5 seconds, eh?
Horrible news, I'm gonna be coming back here to learn more along with everyone else interested in hearing what went wrong with the car's mechanicals and/or what lack of driving skills might have been involved here(in all due respect for the departed, of course). Horrible tragedy here.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
it's just too old, like my mustang.
had to have my emissions test done on a roller dyno.
newer cars have OBD II, which can be tested by plugging into the computer access port.
*sigh*
Carry on. :shades:
Americans import everything these days; even our spam is from China.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I looked it up online. If you go to the maps on Bing.com, probably google maps as well, and type in "Mission Gorge Road, San Diego CA, you'll find the road, and you can just move around until you find where 125 comes in.
125 is a north-south highway. Not an interstate, but still limited-access, so I'm guessing a 55 mph speed limit? Maybe even 60-65? It's a fairly straight highway, except for a broad curve about a mile from the end, where it goes around a college campus. It's 5 lanes going North, but about 1/4 mile from the end, the two right-most lanes are an exit that banks off gently to the right, but then crosses up and over 125, going West, and becomes 52, which looks like another limited access road that goes around the congestion. The remaining three lanes continue North, and toward the end, the left-most lane splits into two more. At the intersection of Mission Gorge, two lanes turn left, and two lanes turn right. 125 ends at Mission Gorge, and comes into it perpendicular. On the other side there's a broad dirt/sand shoulder, and then a man-made berm that appears to have a cut in it, most likely for drainage, and it lines up fairly well with the north bound lanes of 125. So if you didn't stop, and aimed right, you could go right through that cut in the berm, and end up in a small, man-made ravine on the other side, strewn with boulders.
I'm guessing that intersection is one that backs up really bad, so this cop was zipping through the traffic, using all 5 lanes, to try to get ahead of as many cars as possible before he got to the light, and that's when the accelerator pedal got stuck.
According to the CHP Forum, the were following the incident on CAD (computer aided dispatch). I am not sure how many cameras are along that stretch of freeway. It does not sound like it was a last second screw-up caused by the driver. No one wants to believe their drive by wire can go berserk. There are too many reports of that happening to ignore them. It takes an incident like this to get the auto makers to listen.
This according to the Washington Times regarding a 2005 fatal school bus crash:
A 2005 school bus accident that killed two people and injured 23 elementary students in Missouri occurred because the driver likely stepped on the accelerator instead of the brake, according to a National Transportation Safety Board investigation.
The NTSB determined that "pedal misapplication" in the crash in Liberty, Mo., and four others since then involving large vehicles likely led to the accidents. After studying, those accidents, the safety board approved recommendations Tuesday urging the government to require that new buses and large vehicles have equipment installed forcing the driver to press the brake to shift the automatic transmission out of park.
The NTSB also approved recommendations for the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to develop pedal designs for the larger vehicles that make it easier to distinguish the brake from the accelerator. "They have required changes in passenger cars to address unintended acceleration. It is time for them to focus on commercial vehicles," NTSB Chairwoman Deborah Hersman said.
BRAKES WOULD NOT SLOW THE VEHICLE
Again, this is a hydraulic fluid system that is not drive-by-wire, so it's isolated from electrical glitches with the throttle.
We're talking about two seperate systems failing completely at exactly the same time.
Braking is much stronger than acceleration, so even without power brakes boosting you, I think they should still "slow the vehicle".
Call me a skeptic, but I just think the carpeted mats got in the way is a more likely theory, because that could explain both a stuck throttle and a blocked brake pedal.
Or "pedal misapplication" as mentioned above, at least in some of those cases.
isell: beats me, but the PTTR issue was from the CR-V guys here on Edmunds.
Here's an interesting factoid - I got some of those mats for my Miata. Mazda's rubber mats tell you to remove the carpeted mats if you have them. You can't put the rubber ones on top. The rubber mats also have anchors to prevent them from sliding forward and interfering with the pedals.
If that Lexus dealer just slapped on 2 layers and there were not supposed to, that would have contributed. Anyone have a Lexus with all-weather mats? Do they have holes for those anchors, like Mazda?
Let me look for a pic of those mats, I'll report back...
Though that does not mean the dealer didn't screw up BIG TIME and just put them on top of the other ones, and not anchor them.
It does look like those same mats in the pic above, except they're dirty and they look more gray, but look at the texture, they are the same.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.f2217bee37fb30- 2f6d7c121046108a0c/?javax.portlet.tpst=1e51531b2220b0f8ea14201046108a0c_ws_MX&ja- vax.portlet.prp_1e51531b2220b0f8ea14201046108a0c_viewID=detail_view&itemID=1bf2b- afceb315110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD&pressReleaseYearSelect=2007
Starts with:
Owners of 2007 and 2008 Lexus ES 350 models and certain other Toyota vehicles are being urged to make sure the driver-side, “All Weather” floor mats are properly secured
I've said all along this is what I suspect happened, and I think it's even more likely now.
if unsecured, the mats being recalled can slip forward and trap the accelerator pedal, causing the vehicle to accelerate uncontrollably
My Mazda came with very, very clear instructions to remove the carpeted ones, and hook the anchors on these. In fact Mazda added an extra sheet of paper in the shipment to make sure I did that.
Must be more common than I thought.
This is pretty much what I said about my Miata:
make sure the driver-side floor mat is properly secured to the retention hooks on the floorboard. Also, never overlay two mats on top of each other because the retention hooks cannot secure the top-most mat which can then can slip and trap the accelerator pedal.
Sounds like the dealer would be at fault if the recall was not performed on their loaner car. Especially since the dealer installed those mats.
The retention hooks are a relatively new concept, although my '98 Frontier has them. I'm sure a lot of "old school" guys couldn't be bothered with them.
Seems like a more idiot-proof design would be to use Velcro pads on all 4 corners of the mat, like some of the European makes do.
Chrysler FWD tranny. If you got a good one, it worked forever. A bad one, rebuild at every 40K. Or less. Dad has a 2000 Town and Country with the 3.3L. Drives it like a little old man.(he's 88, so I guess that makes sense) 118K miles, three complete rebuilds.
'66 Ford Mustang. Rust, brakes, shifter, ahh, nevermind.
Olds 350, great engine. But the early version had a curved bypass hose on the thermostat housing. When the hose blew (and it did regularly) the sudden decompression sucked the seal out of the waterpump shaft. Olds finally started retrofitting with a curved aluminum pipe and a straight piece of hose, fixing the problem.
S10 door hinge pins. When every parts house in America stocks three sets, you know you have a problem. Water coming from the door channel dumps right on the pins, taking out the lube. This one should have been caught early on. All you have to do is trim back the gasket in the door about two inches. The door will still seal, and the water runoff will miss the hinge.
Chevy rear axle seals. A 60K replacement item.
Honda AC "Black Death" Compressor comes apart, the pieces mix with the oil, and the whole system is trashed. Learned about this one from the Honda service manager. He was really getting tired of telling customers the repair would be over 2K, and Honda wouldn't cover anything if the car was over 12K miles.
Chevy Vega. 'nuff said.
Ford Pinto. see above.
I had to laugh at that one, albeit a remorseful sort of laugh, because that's what happened to my 2000 Intrepid earlier this year. And guess what? It uses the same a/c compressor as a Honda Accord! Admittedly, mine was kinda my fault though. I knew it had a freon leak, and was getting weak, but I was going to try to make it through the winter and get it recharged in the spring. Didn't quite make it. One day in February, I had the defroster going, when suddenly I heard a horrible squealing noise from under the hood and the car almost stalled out. I was less than 1/2 mile from home, and was able to make it home, but by then there was smoke pouring from under the hood, and the smell of burnt rubber from the belt rubbing against the seized a/c compressor pulley.
And yep, whole system was pretty much trashed, although mine "only" set me back about $1300.
Just out of curiosity, why is it that some a/c compressors contaminate the whole system when they seize up, but others don't? Just something in the design?
That made my day! The company, maker of perfect cars, currently advertising that their clearance sale is the "Only thing by Honda that WON'T last." !!!!!!!!! All cars have some problems, but compressors along with transmissions... this is like the class bully getting smashed by a nerd.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My GM service manager when talking about my first 4-speed auto in my Buick, said Chrysler had trouble because of poor lubricant cooling due to low engine speeds in 4th gear in driving. So he said use 3rd until you're moving at highway speeds. I told that to a co-worker who was on his third T&C transmission.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
What didn't break? I can't think of anything.
After a few miserable years of ownership, they drove it to a Honda dealer to trade it in for a Civic.
It broke down 100 yards from the dealer, so people had to push it the last few yards.
That pretty much sums it up for her ownership experience.
Honda AC compressors are no more apt to fail than on any other car. Bad AC compressors do happen but not very often.
Everything get's aver blown in internet forums.
And, sorry but the AC units are covered for 3 years/36,000 miles, not 12K and it would be nowere near 2000.00 fto fix.
Oh, and speaking of Mopar transmissions, that reminds me...my Intrepid is due soon! It'll probably hit 150,000 miles this month, and I like to do it every 30,000 miles...regardless of what the owner's manual says!
How long ago was this supposed to have taken place. Honda has had a 3 year 36,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty that does cover the AC compressor for as long as I can remember.
Maybe they had a 12/12 warranty back in the early 80s and I wouldn't remember that obviously as I was five.
Honda AC units are usually pretty easy to get to. I guess maybe if you really had to replace the whole system, compressor, evaporator, accumulator I mean absolutely everything and the lines too then maybe you could total up 2,000 dollars but that still seems high.
His explanation to me was that the issue was the oil used in the system. Everybody gets the same freon, and there are always good and bad parts. It was the combination of the oil and the mechanical failure that plugged up the evaporator, drier, and condensor to the point they couldn't be cleared and had to be replaced. Turned into a black goo.
A simple compressor replacement with no other issues will run close to $1K here in central Texas. A GM compressor replacement (with drier, required) runs $800 to $1000. I just had to write the check for one, and the best deal I could get using an AC Delco compressor was $805.
This problem was most pronounced in the 2000-2004 model years. From a Honda technician: "As a Honda Technician, “Black Death” happens to all cars no matter of the make or model. “Black Death” is caused by the compressor seizing and metal shavings being pushed through the lines via refrigerant. All rubber hoses, evaporator, condenser, expansion valve & compressor needs to be replaced. The only things that can stay are solid metal lines. (They can be flushed out). Failure to replace all components will cause remaining metallic particles to be carried through and premature failure."
The root cause was a production run of compressors suffering premature failure. I won't address the 12K warranty issue as it came from a Honda service manager, not me. But there is a lot of documentation on "Black Death" relating to Honda, and not just in the internet chat rooms.
Compressors can go bad in different ways. If the explode internally than the metal will contaminate the system and various components will have to be replaced.
This doesn't happen often and this would apply to any car.
"Everything get's aver blown in internet forums."
On that I have to agree. From the forums I have read, every 4.3L GM ever built has blown and intake manifold by 60K miles. Except the four that I have owned, one of which is currently at 94K, the other at 82K.
Oh, and people were burned to death in Fiero's that would just burst into flames. Yeah, if you never checked the fluid levels, or noted that slow drip of coolant in the driveway. Funny thing, that issue. I knew lots of Fiero owners (mine was a brand new, '84 SE, loaded) and none of us had the problem. The most fun part of my job is doing root cause analysis on failures. Though not in the auto business anymore, this issue caught my attention and I researched to see what the RCA turned out to be. A supplier started shipping a motor mount bolt that was fractionally longer than what was specified. At around the same time, the depth of thread in the cast iron block was very slightly lessened. The two combined would cause the tip of the motor mount bolt to "bottom out" in the block, and over time the stress could cause a crack to form in the water jacket, and a slow coolant loss. Unfortunately, the drip was right over the exhaust system. There were far fewer fires than the "legend" would lead you to believe, because *most* folks notice when there is a green trail of coolant in the drive way or garage.
The only problems I had with my Fiero were dealer induced during maintenance. We had a saying here in the Austin area: Fiero's and Ferrari's have something in common; you can't get either one repaired in Austin."
A good friend who was the service manager at a Pontiac store heard that I was looking at an '88 GT to purchase. The car was in perfect shape, about four years old. He looked me in the eye and said "If you buy that car and bring it here for service, you will not be my friend anymore." Sheesh, those guys hated Fieros!
I also think misery loves company and in the "problems" forums people love to jump in with their "me too" stories. This isn't to say that these problems aren't real but to a person who is thinking about buying a car, this can scare them away from what may be a great car for them.
About three years ago, I reluctanly sold our next door neighbors a VW Jetta for their daughter. I tried to steer them toward a used Honda, Toyota and a nice Mazda we had at the time but, nope, she had to have the VW.
At the time, I strongly suggest buying a warranty which they did and I told them that I didn't want to hear about it if it caused troubles and I haven't.
Has it been a good car? I don't know. I haven't asked.
Hmm, that's one I'd never heard before. I was always under the impression that the 4.3 was a good, sturdy engine...just not the most refined thing in the world. My uncle has a '97 Silverado with the 4.3 and probably has around 120,000 miles on it, and I have a friend with a 2005 4.3 that's probably around 110,000. If you get too used to the sound of a V-8, those 90-degree V-6es do sound rough, like they're misfiring or something, but that's the only complaint I really have.
Now if you want to talk transmissions, that's another story! The 4L60E or whatever it's called in my uncle's Silverado was rebuilt twice. First under an extended warranty he bought, and then a couple years ago, around 108,000 miles when it lost reverse and two of the forward gears. The guy at the transmission shop said that the three most common vehicles he sees come in for replacement are Ford Explorers, Mopar minivans, and GM 1/2 tons. One reason for that, though, could be that there are plenty of examples of all three running around, so just more of them to potentially break. It made me feel kinda good though, when he said that it was fairly rare for them to see an Intrepid that needed a rebuild.
On all vehicles, all brands, styles, and capabilities, the key to longevity is maintenance. I always tell my non-automotive buds, "Oil is the cheapest thing you will ever change on your engine. And, if ignored, will cause the most expensive repairs you will ever have on that same engine."
I had an MDX that I drove till 120k and never had a problem, my father had one of the first MDX's that he drove till 150k I think. I have family members who still have their Accords, Odysseys and Acura TL/CL. 200k plus on those puppies. Still original tranny.
Kid here at work was stranded back in July with a dead battery. Claims it was the first thing to go wrong on his V6 Accord (2001) and it was at 200,000 and change mileage-wise.
So even if we see, say, a 6% failure rate, that's completely unacceptable. People flip out, join forums, and complain until they are blue in the face.
Looking at the other side of the coin, that means 94% of owners will be perfectly happy and have no problems whatsoever.
Still, what counts is that 6% is much more than usual.
My numbers are purely fictional but the point is the same. If 5% is normal failure rates and 10% of anything breaks, that's bad, even though 90% of them are perfect.
Subarus were notorious for eating head gaskets, but my family owned 5 affected models and none ever had a problem. Keep in mind with a boxer engine that means TEN head gaskets were perfect. We still have 3 of those 5 cars, a decade+ old now and 6 perfectly sealed head gaskets.
I think we can't look at small samples (i.e. the ones we own) and conclude they're reliable.
Still, as scary as that sounds, a grand majority of 83% had no problem at all.
6 Ody owners walk in to a bar (sounds like the beginning of a joke
In the overall scheme of things, a 4.9% failure rate and a 9.1% failure rate really aren't THAT far apart, even if one's almost double the other. But the 4.9% would be rated "Better than Average", which sounds like it's leaps and bounds better than "Worse than Average".
I guess those CR rates are just for that given year though. So if a given model has a failure rate of, say, 5% every year, then over the course of 6 years, 30% of them have failed (probably less since some might have failed more than once).
The thing that tends to bother me about a car's reliability is when I start to see patterns. Such as my uncle's pickup that needed two tranny rebuilds, or when the transmission in my Mom & stepdad's '91 Stanza started dying around 90,000 miles, and then the one in their '99 Altima was finished at 35,000. To its credit though, that car now has about 300,000 miles on it, so tranny #2 more than redeemed itself. Or the three 1979 Chryslers I've had with temperature warning lights that had to be possessed. They'd come on seemingly at random, and at times when the engine couldn't possibly be overheating, such as, umm, warming up on a cold winter morning?
I can't recall the specifics, but Honda did very well (Top 3 IIRC?), and Saturn was way back in 26th place, something like that, and the actual difference was something like 0.2 problems per vehicle.
And that's mostly small stuff, not transmission failure.
An Odyssey needs a transmission after 110,000 miles. Is that a failure or just something that happened from old age and a lot of miles?
And, you should see what people do to Odysseys! they install heavy duty hitches and pull huge boats that are loaded to the gills.
A lot of these "failures" are self inflicted...oh wait.." It can't be MY fault"!
The closest I can think of is the Toyota Sienna, but even it was under investigation for the Sludging as well as power door failures. The Caravan (mentioned above) for trannys, ditto the Ody. The Quest might be the winner here actually...
Even the Koreans, which you don't hear much about have had some serious transmission problems in their lifetimes.
I honestly gotta side with isell on this, I don't think owners of minivans have any real pride in their ownership (no offense to those owners out there). It's more of a tool, use it until you can't use it no more. The kids are going to most likely grow up in it, spill food and drinks in it, take many long road trips loaded to the gills with crap and probably be left "put away soaking wet" as they say.
I mean really, when was the last time you saw somebody out with a PorterCable and a set of buffing pads polishing up their minivan
Maybe there is a reason why Ford and Government Motors ceeded the market.
Both have Florida plates.
Now I don't know exactly how much that particular trailer with race car weighed but I know that one of my old employees had a trailer like that and a sub 9 sec Camaro. With the trailer, Camaro, all the tools, spare parts and tires he totaled out over 10,000 lbs.
The Sport only has a 7,700 lbs tow rating. Even if the race car was pretty light it was probably over 8,000 lbs combined weight.
People just don't think about that unfortunately. The guy said oh yeah it tows great you hardly feel it back there. With the air suspension and over 400 horsepower and drives fine at 75 mph. :surprise: I am sure the transmission is feeling it. :sick:
Always wondered why GM didn't keep those around. Bigger than a mini, but smaller than the bigun's, and could carry 8 plus luggage with good interior space.
Then again, no one ever confused GM's marketing with brilliance. :P
Can't complain about mine at 10 years/134k.
Known issues? Crankshafts would break on the first generation, I just cleaned the throttle on mine for the 4th or 5th time (every 30k or so like clockwork....). And the door lock actuators had to be replaced on my generation van. And the window switch carbons up.
The ones built by Nissan in Mississippi (mine was assembled by Ford) were pretty awful. Good drivetrains though.
I had my first AC issue on a Honda ever and did have to replace the condenser, evaporator and dryer. This, however, happened at 171K. I can't call that defective, though if they gave me an accurate estimate (independent mechanic) I might have decided it was time to move to the next car. Now I'll take it at least to the next timing belt.
But, I would agree with you - most minivan owners treat their vehicle like an kitchen appliance.
In any case it did not actually let me down, I was able to drive it to the dealership. The dealer replaced it in a single day. I can't complain at the way that Honda handled that issue or any of the others that I had with that vehicle.
While Honda may not publicize these issues (and why should they?) they certainly don't sweep them under the carpet either.