We were a little concerned too, as he really did very little practicing with the Explorer. Most of his driving was with our old (and now long-gone) 5-speed Accord. This was almost 7 years ago, BTW.
I am considering buying a 2003 Subaru Legacy Wagon but have a few questions for you folks. I took a Legacy Wagon for a test drive a couple of weeks ago and liked just about everything. I thought the road noise was a little loud but everything else was ok. Everytime I’m had the chance to talk to a new Subaru owner I have. At the service station, parking lots and to friends who have one. Most people like them but some people said the quality isn't as good as the older models. A couple of guys said that a big American car company now helps in engineering Subaru’s. I’ve heard to that Subaru is now using some parts made by that company. That really concerns me. Does anybody have any objective and factual comments about that. I like the 2003 Subaru but I’m worried about the quality and the parts from that American car company.
GM owns 20% of Fuji Heavy Industries (FHI), who makes Subarus. The only parts that I'm aware of that is GM-related, is the On-Star satellite system, which is standard on all Outbacks with the H-6 engine.
They are jointly looking into future products that can share engineering, etc. The latest rumor is they may(?) do a sporty car together, to be badged as a Subaru and some unnamed GM brand. They were to do a 7-passenger crossover, but Subaru eventually decided to do that vehicle on its own. It's due out around 2005.
<< A couple of guys said that a big American car company now helps in engineering Subaru’s. >>
I think it's the other way around GM wants Subaru's AWD expertise; that why they bought a stake in FHI. GM, being the huge company that it is, brings all the advantages that a very large corporation can offer, items that small company like Subaru just doesn't have access to. A big problem for both is that Subaru uses a boxer engine format, which is not easy to adapt to other (GM) platforms.
Subaru very much wants to maintain their identity. I'm not that concerned about GM—yet. It certainly would stop me from purchasing one.
First AWDrive in the 6" snowfall today in Pittsburgh. Took some insane snow covered detours on my way to work this morning....on purpose! Loved how the Outback handled the trip.
My 01 OB is my first Subaru so I can't compare to older models. However, I did (do) own 3 Toyotas which I have a very high regard for. My experience is that Subaru's initial quality is slightly below Toyota's. However I believe the longer term reliability will be just as good. The initial quality items are small issues. I had a warped brake rotor, a cracked tail light (dealer's fault)and a disconnected rear power outlet. Bottom line - would I purchase another one. You bet.
The 2003 Legacy has not changed significantly since 2000. I doubt if very many GM parts have been adapted to Legacies ... yet.
I'm very happy with my 2000 Legacy L, now with about 55k trouble-free miles. Why didn't I buy a Toyota or something else? I wanted an AWD sedan and Audi A4s have no rear seat legroom (not to mention high prices)!
The older subies <96 were of a much higher build quality/feature rich than the current roundup. They were also higher priced comparatively.
I would not be suprised if there is some Delphi electronic components used in the Legacy/Outback line, but I wouldn't let that stop me from buying one. My cousin has a 2000 Outback, no problems in 40K miles. My dad has a 97 legacy L 95K miles no major problems. My uncle has a 97 Outback 60K miles no problems. I had an '88 XT6 that turned 90K miles w/o a problem before I sold it. My '91 XT6 only had some minor problems at 130K miles it had been in an accident before I bought it at 100K miles and was severely mis-treated. I recently bought my aunt's '92 SVX with 70K miles and it has been flawless.
Out of the same factory where they make Legacies, I also owned a '97 Isuzu Rodeo with Delphi Electronics and a Harrison Radiator (both Harrison and Delphi are somehow related to GM) and I didn't have any problems on that with 120K "paisan" miles on it which included offroading and other such niceties. I abused it a lot and it kept going.
So I wouldn't be concerned even if there was some GM content like radiators and/or electronics in the car, it's the tolerances of the build IMHO that make all the difference.
I'm approaching the 30k mark on my 2001 Outback. Have had no mechanical problems whatsoever and the car is still a delight to drive.
I thought I read somewhere that the highly-touted GM Duramax diesel was based on an Isuzu engine design. (Isuzu is another Fuji Heavy Industries company). Can anyone confirm this?
Big companies generally do not buy smaller companies to force their components in, but to learn from the smaller company. I am sure GM wanted access to AWD and other technologies. All of the Subaru engineering is in Japan; there will be no impact from GM.
Concerning long term reliability, I have always followed Consumer Reports data closely as I believe it is the most statistically accurate information available. Subaru's long term reliability has been increasing, not decreasing, based on newer models. It is in the same range, although slightly lower, than Toyota and Honda.
It does not appear that the initial quality numbers are as good, but that is primarily a measure of quality control at manufacturing plants and dealerships. These can be annoying but do not reflect on long term reliability.
Isuzu isn't part of FHI, but the Duramax Diesel engine IS an Isuzu engine. Basically DMax is the consumer arm of Isuzu Diesel Engines. Isuzu's main business is Med-Duty Box Trucks. GM re-badges them and sells them here. Isuzu has an extensive knowledge of Diesel engines (Honda CRV in europe uses an Isuzu Diesel) The Duramax is a great engine. Toyota may start putting Duramax engines in their Pickups and SUVs in 2004.
I have a '98 Forester, and our '02 Legacy is actually more refined, has a tighter structure, and is very well assembled. It's more quiet and refined, mostly. A little heavier, though. But I'm sure the 2003 Forester is nicer than mine.
If you like the '03, go for it. I think the SE package is a steal, I'd get it today.
I started out looking at an '03 L Sedan with the SE package...but did not care for the lack of a seat hight adjustment. I am only about 5'10", but my hair did scrape the headliner. The manual height adjuster in my '97 GT was great...I don't understand why Subaru didn't adapt this to the SE package. It wouldn't cost that much. I ended up with an '02 GT Limited with a power seat. I will have to try that tilt feature though...I have never been able to get the back of the seat bottom down far enough.
I found a neat trick though last week...don't know if this would work in wagons though. I took the headrest off of the passenger seat, moved it all the way forward, and reclined the back. It adjusts to be perfectly level with the back seat, and allowed me to stuff five dining room chairs into the car! The last two fit into the trunk. I couldn't believe it! I was 200 miles from home, and stumbled onto the chairs in an antique store, and was so glad to be able to get them all home. Who needs an Outback for hauling?? LOL
We got our first heavy snow here in Central PA yesterday...and my GT got me through slick roads and covered parking lots with ease. I went from my '97 GT to a '99 Buick Century and back to the '02 GT Limited. I forgot how nice it is to not have to shovel the driveway! :-)
You've stumbled onto a common feature to most Japanese cars. The front seat rails are intentionally made far enough forward to make the interior into a bed. The Japanese tend to sleep in their cars a lot on trips, and it is expected there. It's a nice feature - especially on a wagon where with everything folded but the cargo area you have something like 9 feet of length with the cargo door down for a long narrow object.
Hi, Yesterday I found a 2002 GT sedan with a manual. I got the seat down so I could live with it. 26km. I took it for a spin. Nice suspension, and lots of fun, but it sounded like it had a real growl. Now this is nice for a sporty drive, but this will be a family car, and I don't want to have to shout just to talk with them. It sounded louder than the '02 Outback vdc sedan I drove earlier. This was a trade from a guy who went to a wagon. One of the salesmen has had it for a bit. (there was a hand cart in the back seat because he's moving...) There was a chip out of a tail light and I noticed a trailer hitch. He said it was used for a bike rack and the guy never pulled anything with it. Otherwise it looks pretty clean. They are asking 25,995Cdn. I said it was too high and he said they couldn't move much on it, though the book here on it is 24425,(wholesale) I'm sure they gave the guy less than that for his trade. I got the man's name from the dealer but he told me not to call him, it was unethical. (?!?) So, do you think I should call and ask him if he was towing stuff, why he sold it, and it's history, or is this not really a good thing to do. If the guy calls the dealer and rants at them, it might be harder to get them to reduce the price. I's like to get it down to the 21-22 range. My other question is about the depreciation. When does the depreciation level out a bit on these and the best year to buy one used? Is there a formula (there must be since they can give you a residual value on a lease). I'd like a new one, but they're awfully high here. All models start in Canada at 23-24 for the base models, with the VDCs getting in to the 40's, which is Ausi territory. I'm fretting over this whole thing of what is the best deal, a late model 02, or go for a less expensive '00 but with higher kms.? I appreciate any advice on it. thanks, cdndriver there is one '02 outback h6 vdc I've found that's still in the showroom, but I don't know how much I could drop it. I don't know how desperate thay are to just move the cars...
I purchased an 00' Outback from a sea of Beamers in a BMW dealer about two months ago. To them, it stuck out like a sore thumb...to me it shined like a dream. It wasn't the Limited that I wanted but had all the amenities like the winter package, heated seats, radio/cd combination, auto and less than 40 k mi. going for 16.5K bucks. With a trade (91' Buick LeSabre.LTD) and some dancing, I drove out paying 14K for the Outback! It was deal. The car is flawless. Checking the VIN no. at TSB.com claims no damages to the cars' history.
I think the BMW dealer wanted this vehicle off the lot and the salesman probably gave the trade in to his kid (still a good car at 120K, well maintained). This to me was the ultimate scenerio to get a great deal. I found the car through Autotrader.com. The dealer was 120 mi. away but was well worth the drive...what a deal. Still can't believe it. Not a ding not a scratch and has the new car smell inside. Love it! And yeah, people, it pulls through the snow like it it's summertime! But watch your stopping distance! Had a close one the other day. Has the original Firestone Wilderness, begining to think of new treads soon.
I'm out of the "bumper to bumper" warranty but still have the power train in effect. I'm presently doing 36K maintenence work myself, to play it safe, bit by bit (cold in the garage) and everything falls into place wonderfully. I'm amazed how easy doing the oil and filter change is. Will be checking the brakes, suspension, CV joints, tranny, differentials and do tire rotation.
cdndriver, patience... is the key here, it took me three months when I finally decided which vehicle to shoot for (for me it was Saturn LW300 or the Outback LTD....used). My understanding of the depreciation on the Subies has been very good to excellent from my research. Good luck, hashman.
I was gonna say, Subaru didn't have a light truck last year. That doesn't add up. Forester is registered as a car by all the federal agencies.
I guess whoever measured did include the Forester.
Here's a formula I suggest. I'm hardly an expert, but there is a method to my madness.
Try not to borrow money for a longer term than the powertrain warranty. So for a new car, that's 5 years. For a 2 year old car, that's 3 yeras. Generally, then, it's more affordable to buy new, and still be covered under warranty while you're making payments.
Once it's paid off, you're in hog heaven so a few repairs won't hit you too hard.
Just got the estimate for the damage to my outback . If you don.t remember I went on a road trip ove the past holiday. Drove to aunts house in New Orleans . while there she back into my car sideswiping the pass side . It is going to cost her insurance co 1500.00. Thats not including the rental car for me . Also put about 2500 miles on my car over the holiday. My best milage was a little over 28 .I averaged 27.4 with cruise set at 79mph seems to be my cars sweet spot for highway cruising. my best tank of gas was with exxon ,my worst was with citgo . The car drove great, it was so smooth and I was very comfortable the whole time driving .Did notice the slightest vibration from the steering wheel. Guess I'll have to get the tires balanced. I'll have that done when the car goes in for the tranny recall repair. Hope you all had a great holiday.
how did you arrive at the figure of CDN$ 24,425 for the 02 GT 5sp? If you look into the Canadian black book ( accessible via the GM Canada or Toyota Canada web site ), you will find it at somewhere between $20,000 and $22,500. Pick the average of the two numbers and add in a little for the salesman, and it should still be way less than $24,425. Besides this is a new car, so it is not like the dealer had to spend a fortune to make it "sell"able - the car will see itself.
anyways, would be keen to know how to arrived at the figure of $24,425. I am in the market myself for a late model Outback/Legacy Outback and am considering using the Canadian Black Book as a reference for pricing, hopefully, I am right!!!
Hi, Here's how I got the figure of 24425.00. I got the December issue of the "Red Book" which lists the Factory SRP, Average Wholesale, Model number, Description and then the Average retail price since the last month. This is based on sales figures and facts. For the 2002 "4dr Sdn GT" body E64 it has Srp:30395; Avg retial: 27025; and the wholesale: 24,425.00. It was a trade in so I doubt they gave him wholesale, perhaps they did. The car had a small scratch on it, and a broken tailight. The dealer had put 1000km on it, and was using it to move so it was pretty dirty. So I wanted to get it for around wholesale. He sais he "really wanted to move it, and get his numbers for the end of the month..." That's where I got the number. I spoke with a different dealer who advised against the sedans saying they are very hard to resell, especilly an Outback sedan with H6, or a stick. He said there is an extremely small market, and the Outback sedan is the worst seller they have. Even if you could get a great price on it, he says you'll have a hard time selling it down the road. cdndriver
My wifes 2k Outback Ltd. will be paid in full. Then its off to pay off my 01 Protege ES. Then its time to save for new new car. Its a horrible cycle that I love.
Try to get ahead of the curve. Save up and pay cash for your next car. You might have to wait 3 years to save up enough, but you'll earn interest instead of paying it.
I bought a '91 Escort GT back in 1991. Though it had its share of problems, it was super cheap at $10,792. A Civic Si would have been $14k or more.
Paid it off early, in 17 months, but kept it for 7 years. That let me save up and get way, way ahead of the game. Think about having 67 months with no car payment at all. Imagine what you could save up if you are disciplined.
The Escort was totalled and I got $3k from insurance. A Civic would have given me $4k, so financially I came out a couple of grand ahead in the end.
Today, my 1998 Forester is paid off, we paid cash for our 2002 Legacy, and I bought a Miata used for cash as well. No car payments!
So it took a sacrifice at first, but we're in hog heaven right now! Try to hang on to that Outback for 5 more years or so, you won't regret it.
Basically, I dont want to keep either car more than 7 years (extended warranty runs out) if we can avoid it. BUT 5 years is the minimum. I have thought about getting another car (toy) in a few years but I dont know what I'm gettin yet. Basically the Protege will be paid off in about 1 year so I will have lots of time to thing abou it. Ideally I would like to just hold off the full 7 years and get something like the Audi S6 (or RS6, yea right) Avant as a dual purpose vehicle. However, I did drive a used Toyota MR2 last week and picking up one of those and then adding a supercharger could keep me happy for quite a while. The MR2 is an amazing car used but not new and not for a daily driver. When new, its a little too steep for what you get. Can you believe I saw one on the lot for $27k!!!! It had the new sequential manual + some other stuff but $27k!!!!! Yikes!!! Its supposed to be a no haggle price. I'll probably keep my eye out for used WRX strippers when the STi hits the streets in a few years. Probably get one for around $15k then.
Anyway, I doubt I'll trade in the Mazda when I'm done as I may just give the Protege to my nephew who will be getting out of college then. Or just keep it as a beater. Dont know what the wife will do with the OB. She gets attached to cars more than I do. The OB was a real pain for the first 20k miles. We had to go to the dealer constantly for all kinds of little things but over the last 15k+ its been pretty good. We put 24k miles on it the first year but its only at about 37k now (3 years old). She keeps taking my Protege so its been stacking up miles a lot faster than I thought with both of us driving it.
I drive a h4 auto. Yes they are using oem parts ,that is why I am not dropping it off untill next Monday . It gives them time to order the parts.Do you think I should get an alignment . My car was parked in the drive way ,and she sideswiped it as she was backing out. I drove the car over 1800 miles home and the car tracked straight as an arrow.
Hi, I'm trying to figure out if I should get a used Legacy, a few years old, or, as one fellow said, buy the legacy special edition, and lease it for four years, then sell it, because I could get more than the residual, and I'd have a good down payment then for the next car. I like the SE, and think it's a pretty good value. Another option is a '02 OB sedan with the H6 and VDC. It's been in this dealers showroom and no one has touched it so they really want to get rid of it. I don't know how low an offer he'll give me. It's not my favorite looking car, but it has the H6, and the VDC is a nice feature. But I'm also told that it is Sub's worst seller (which I believe, since nobody touched it) and that it woud be very difficult to sell down the road. But it might be a good car to just hold onto. It's safe, well equipped with the Mac stereo, and surefooted. The other option is to look for a really nice '00 or older Legacy GT and hope I can get it at a really good price, drive it for two or three years and then see if I can sell it at close to what I bought it for... Any thoughts. I've read a book that says to find a "cream puff" and see if you can get it cloes to wholesale, drive for 3 yrs, then sell it at the average retail price, or as close to what you got it for as you can, and then you've driven the car for 3 yrs. for almost nothing. It sounds easier said than done. I've pretty much narrowed it down to a Subaru. I don't like the Hondas, the Passat, which I really like alot hasn't turned out to be very reliable from people I've spoken with, and that leaves Subaru, which appears to be pretty reliable. (I think.....) cdndriver
Keep your Protoge as long as you can. Even after 7 years, it could be your beater.
Now that your Outback was sorted out, I'd keep that long-term too. We only dumped our 626 after 7 years, and it had 5 break downs in the last 18 months.
I like the MR2 also, just can't get over the styling. The headlights are too big. I'm thinking about trading my '93 Miata for a '99 Miata, but those got heavier. The MR2 is lighter, but it also costs a lot more. It would be a nice toy, though.
You'll lose about 10% of value each year for just about any Soob. An L/SE costs less to begin with, so yeah, it'll depreciate less, but as a percentage it should be similar, maybe only slightly better.
You're pretty much on track with what you're looking for but one thing though.... don't invest in a car because you're just getting a good deal (assuming they will, based on no sale for the OB H6). It's already a '02, so the depreciation will drop even harder and faster. VDC is good but not many people are impressed with the HP and TQ of the H6, I for one, am not impressed. The 6 cyl. in the same catagory as other makers comes up short and the MPG is not all too great either. That's why is hasn't sold much. Now, important enough that you invest in something you like and would appreciate not something you're not sure of but the $$$ offer is attractive. That's not smart buying... remember, it's your money and when the salesperson goes home, he/she is happy but you're not, not to mention you'll be stuck with it. Subaru's are very reliable and that's one thing you can count on. Older Legacy models like the '00 are hard to come by (at least in the US) unless it has high miles, but are still reliable. It's just a matter of what makes you happy....
One thing, the '03's have a very good lease offer now (again, in the US), so check into that and see...
I'm going to drive the wheels off the GT, basically. That's why I decided to put a little money into upgrades. I really really want the next iteration of performance Legacy, but the only I can afford it is to pay off the GT and then save save save. As for the OB, well, it is a great car but I think Kirsten is wishing she had something more nimble. Eh, we'll see, with the economy the way it is and our earning potential surpressed for the foreseeable future, she may have to get over it.
I drove a '96 Outback in TN the other day, and if it hadn't had 181,000 miles on it, I might be driving it cross-country today. I didn't realize how much I've missed my 5 speed handshaker!
I didn't have time to search much and only saw one Legacy wagon back there and didn't have time to check it out - it looked rough though. Is the Legacy as much (more?) fun to drive than the Outback?
They are different in character. Generally the GT is sportier, low slung, firm handling. The Outback has more suspension travel and rides softer. So try both.
I drove a few Outbacks and a few Legacys before settling on the '97 Legacy I got in May. The Outbacks were both noisier (road noise) and exhibited less responsive handling. There are some nice features on the Outbacks, however. I simply added my choice of foglights (Hellas), a 200w Pioneer CD and 4 speakers, and the cargo hooks from a wrecked Outback to get the things I wanted. For these, I spent 25% of the price difference it would have cost me to get an Outback.
I know Doug :-). It was a chance to test drive one, and for 4 grand it was almost disposable. The boots probably would have given up the ghost around Memphis though ....
What about ground clearance w/ the Legacy vs the Outback?
Cdndriver: Why fuss over spending $24-26k on some used Legacy/Outback when the '03 Forester 2.5x (huge inside the drivers area)goes in Canada at list of $29k with full kit and automatic. Save $1K if you want to shift but forget residuals later. Lease deal at Subaru Canada is better than most these days. Same 165HP as Legacy but lighter weight means better performance than with Legacy/Outback body. I'll bet you can knock another $1k or more off list price easily, try it, the wife did and loves her Forester.Any Japanese car up to three years old is too expensive to buy used in Canada. We also have 1995 Subaru Legacy in our family still rolling along, routine maintenance is all it's had, truly a value buy. Waterloo
Before I bought my subaru, I was toying with an idea of buying a car in Canada, since purchase price would be considerably less. My question was and still is what would be freight and customs charges afterwards?
I just bought a 2003 Outback that comes with the standard Potenza tires that are rated All Season (M+S). I live in California and am wondering if these tiers meet the classification for "4WD/AWD with snow tires" when the chain control requirements are posted? Or do I need to get proper snow tires?
Also, is it ok to use tire chains with an Outback?
all seasons, M & S rated are NOT snow tires, what the CA DOT classifies as a snowtire I have no clue but industry standards for a true snow or more accurately "winter" tire today requires it meets a specific severe weather test which entitles the manufacturer to stamp the snowflake/mountain logo on the side. M & S rated actually means squat except that there is an industry definition that the contact patch is 25% empty (or maybe it was 20), it doesn't actually measure performance in snow or mud! Its a throwback to several decades ago when there were non radial tires and tread design science was close to non existent. All season has no formal definition though it usually means the rubber compound is neither a summer performance type or a winter one!
dude- most manufacturers will not honor warranty on cars brought across canadian border.
Hi, Your point is well taken. I prefer the legacy, but my wife and daughter went nuts over a sort of gold/copper Forester at the dealership. thanks for the ideas, I'll check out the rates.
Dude, Cars in Canada have slightly different glass and a few other little things that you'd need to get checked out. The best way to find out customs, duty, etc., is to just phone US Customs, or find them on the web. There's probably a FAQ section that covers everything you need to know on it. My car rental friend tells me that they sell lots of theri fleet cars in the States after they pull them out of service. So I know it's possible. We can't bring US cars up here though because of the glass, etc.. Not to mention the price. regards, cdndriver
Comments
Bob
-juice
Bob
Bob
They are jointly looking into future products that can share engineering, etc. The latest rumor is they may(?) do a sporty car together, to be badged as a Subaru and some unnamed GM brand. They were to do a 7-passenger crossover, but Subaru eventually decided to do that vehicle on its own. It's due out around 2005.
<< A couple of guys said that a big American car company now helps in engineering Subaru’s. >>
I think it's the other way around GM wants Subaru's AWD expertise; that why they bought a stake in FHI. GM, being the huge company that it is, brings all the advantages that a very large corporation can offer, items that small company like Subaru just doesn't have access to. A big problem for both is that Subaru uses a boxer engine format, which is not easy to adapt to other (GM) platforms.
Subaru very much wants to maintain their identity. I'm not that concerned about GM—yet. It certainly would stop me from purchasing one.
We own two Subarus, are very happy with them.
Bob
Greg
I'm very happy with my 2000 Legacy L, now with about 55k trouble-free miles. Why didn't I buy a Toyota or something else? I wanted an AWD sedan and Audi A4s have no rear seat legroom (not to mention high prices)!
Jim
I would not be suprised if there is some Delphi electronic components used in the Legacy/Outback line, but I wouldn't let that stop me from buying one. My cousin has a 2000 Outback, no problems in 40K miles. My dad has a 97 legacy L 95K miles no major problems. My uncle has a 97 Outback 60K miles no problems. I had an '88 XT6 that turned 90K miles w/o a problem before I sold it. My '91 XT6 only had some minor problems at 130K miles it had been in an accident before I bought it at 100K miles and was severely mis-treated. I recently bought my aunt's '92 SVX with 70K miles and it has been flawless.
Out of the same factory where they make Legacies, I also owned a '97 Isuzu Rodeo with Delphi Electronics and a Harrison Radiator (both Harrison and Delphi are somehow related to GM) and I didn't have any problems on that with 120K "paisan" miles on it which included offroading and other such niceties. I abused it a lot and it kept going.
So I wouldn't be concerned even if there was some GM content like radiators and/or electronics in the car, it's the tolerances of the build IMHO that make all the difference.
-mike
I thought I read somewhere that the highly-touted GM Duramax diesel was based on an Isuzu engine design. (Isuzu is another Fuji Heavy Industries company). Can anyone confirm this?
Concerning long term reliability, I have always followed Consumer Reports data closely as I believe it is the most statistically accurate information available. Subaru's long term reliability has been increasing, not decreasing, based on newer models. It is in the same range, although slightly lower, than Toyota and Honda.
It does not appear that the initial quality numbers are as good, but that is primarily a measure of quality control at manufacturing plants and dealerships. These can be annoying but do not reflect on long term reliability.
Mike
-mike
If you like the '03, go for it. I think the SE package is a steal, I'd get it today.
-juice
Greg
-juice
I found a neat trick though last week...don't know if this would work in wagons though. I took the headrest off of the passenger seat, moved it all the way forward, and reclined the back. It adjusts to be perfectly level with the back seat, and allowed me to stuff five dining room chairs into the car! The last two fit into the trunk. I couldn't believe it! I was 200 miles from home, and stumbled onto the chairs in an antique store, and was so glad to be able to get them all home. Who needs an Outback for hauling?? LOL
We got our first heavy snow here in Central PA yesterday...and my GT got me through slick roads and covered parking lots with ease. I went from my '97 GT to a '99 Buick Century and back to the '02 GT Limited. I forgot how nice it is to not have to shovel the driveway! :-)
If you put an inflatable mattress on top and do that with both seats, voila, bed.
-juice
DougM
I wonder if the Forester and Baja are considered as a "Light Truck"?http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-12-03-saleschart.htm
Yesterday I found a 2002 GT sedan with a manual. I got the seat down so I could live with it. 26km. I took it for a spin. Nice suspension, and lots of fun, but it sounded like it had a real growl. Now this is nice for a sporty drive, but this will be a family car, and I don't want to have to shout just to talk with them. It sounded louder than the '02 Outback vdc sedan I drove earlier. This was a trade from a guy who went to a wagon. One of the salesmen has had it for a bit. (there was a hand cart in the back seat because he's moving...) There was a chip out of a tail light and I noticed a trailer hitch. He said it was used for a bike rack and the guy never pulled anything with it. Otherwise it looks pretty clean. They are asking 25,995Cdn. I said it was too high and he said they couldn't move much on it, though the book here on it is 24425,(wholesale) I'm sure they gave the guy less than that for his trade. I got the man's name from the dealer but he told me not to call him, it was unethical. (?!?) So, do you think I should call and ask him if he was towing stuff, why he sold it, and it's history, or is this not really a good thing to do. If the guy calls the dealer and rants at them, it might be harder to get them to reduce the price. I's like to get it down to the 21-22 range.
My other question is about the depreciation. When does the depreciation level out a bit on these and the best year to buy one used? Is there a formula (there must be since they can give you a residual value on a lease). I'd like a new one, but they're awfully high here. All models start in Canada at 23-24 for the base models, with the VDCs getting in to the 40's, which is Ausi territory. I'm fretting over this whole thing of what is the best deal, a late model 02, or go for a less expensive '00 but with higher kms.?
I appreciate any advice on it.
thanks,
cdndriver
there is one '02 outback h6 vdc I've found that's still in the showroom, but I don't know how much I could drop it. I don't know how desperate thay are to just move the cars...
I think the BMW dealer wanted this vehicle off the lot and the salesman probably gave the trade in to his kid (still a good car at 120K, well maintained). This to me was the ultimate scenerio to get a great deal. I found the car through Autotrader.com. The dealer was 120 mi. away but was well worth the drive...what a deal. Still can't believe it. Not a ding not a scratch and has the new car smell inside. Love it! And yeah, people, it pulls through the snow like it it's summertime! But watch your stopping distance! Had a close one the other day.
Has the original Firestone Wilderness, begining to think of new treads soon.
I'm out of the "bumper to bumper" warranty but still have the power train in effect. I'm presently doing 36K maintenence work myself, to play it safe, bit by bit (cold in the garage) and everything falls into place wonderfully. I'm amazed how easy doing the oil and filter change is. Will be checking the brakes, suspension, CV joints, tranny, differentials and do tire rotation.
cdndriver, patience... is the key here, it took me three months when I finally decided which vehicle to shoot for (for me it was Saturn LW300 or the Outback LTD....used). My understanding of the depreciation on the Subies has been very good to excellent from my research. Good luck, hashman.
I guess whoever measured did include the Forester.
Here's a formula I suggest. I'm hardly an expert, but there is a method to my madness.
Try not to borrow money for a longer term than the powertrain warranty. So for a new car, that's 5 years. For a 2 year old car, that's 3 yeras. Generally, then, it's more affordable to buy new, and still be covered under warranty while you're making payments.
Once it's paid off, you're in hog heaven so a few repairs won't hit you too hard.
Congrats, hashman.
-juice
Mike k
anyways, would be keen to know how to arrived at the figure of $24,425. I am in the market myself for a late model Outback/Legacy Outback and am considering using the Canadian Black Book as a reference for pricing, hopefully, I am right!!!
rb
In my H4 the gas mileage really seems to drop off if I cruise over 70.
Greg
$1500 is cheap. My rule of thumb is $800 per panel damaged, and that's usually on the low side.
-juice
Here's how I got the figure of 24425.00. I got the December issue of the "Red Book" which lists the Factory SRP, Average Wholesale, Model number, Description and then the Average retail price since the last month. This is based on sales figures and facts. For the 2002 "4dr Sdn GT" body E64 it has Srp:30395; Avg retial: 27025; and the wholesale: 24,425.00. It was a trade in so I doubt they gave him wholesale, perhaps they did. The car had a small scratch on it, and a broken tailight. The dealer had put 1000km on it, and was using it to move so it was pretty dirty. So I wanted to get it for around wholesale.
He sais he "really wanted to move it, and get his numbers for the end of the month..." That's where I got the number. I spoke with a different dealer who advised against the sedans saying they are very hard to resell, especilly an Outback sedan with H6, or a stick. He said there is an extremely small market, and the Outback sedan is the worst seller they have. Even if you could get a great price on it, he says you'll have a hard time selling it down the road.
cdndriver
I bought a '91 Escort GT back in 1991. Though it had its share of problems, it was super cheap at $10,792. A Civic Si would have been $14k or more.
Paid it off early, in 17 months, but kept it for 7 years. That let me save up and get way, way ahead of the game. Think about having 67 months with no car payment at all. Imagine what you could save up if you are disciplined.
The Escort was totalled and I got $3k from insurance. A Civic would have given me $4k, so financially I came out a couple of grand ahead in the end.
Today, my 1998 Forester is paid off, we paid cash for our 2002 Legacy, and I bought a Miata used for cash as well. No car payments!
So it took a sacrifice at first, but we're in hog heaven right now! Try to hang on to that Outback for 5 more years or so, you won't regret it.
-juice
Anyway, I doubt I'll trade in the Mazda when I'm done as I may just give the Protege to my nephew who will be getting out of college then. Or just keep it as a beater. Dont know what the wife will do with the OB. She gets attached to cars more than I do. The OB was a real pain for the first 20k miles. We had to go to the dealer constantly for all kinds of little things but over the last 15k+ its been pretty good. We put 24k miles on it the first year but its only at about 37k now (3 years old). She keeps taking my Protege so its been stacking up miles a lot faster than I thought with both of us driving it.
Mike k
I'm trying to figure out if I should get a used Legacy, a few years old, or, as one fellow said, buy the legacy special edition, and lease it for four years, then sell it, because I could get more than the residual, and I'd have a good down payment then for the next car. I like the SE, and think it's a pretty good value.
Another option is a '02 OB sedan with the H6 and VDC. It's been in this dealers showroom and no one has touched it so they really want to get rid of it. I don't know how low an offer he'll give me. It's not my favorite looking car, but it has the H6, and the VDC is a nice feature. But I'm also told that it is Sub's worst seller (which I believe, since nobody touched it) and that it woud be very difficult to sell down the road. But it might be a good car to just hold onto. It's safe, well equipped with the Mac stereo, and surefooted.
The other option is to look for a really nice '00 or older Legacy GT and hope I can get it at a really good price, drive it for two or three years and then see if I can sell it at close to what I bought it for... Any thoughts. I've read a book that says to find a "cream puff" and see if you can get it cloes to wholesale, drive for 3 yrs, then sell it at the average retail price, or as close to what you got it for as you can, and then you've driven the car for 3 yrs. for almost nothing. It sounds easier said than done.
I've pretty much narrowed it down to a Subaru. I don't like the Hondas, the Passat, which I really like alot hasn't turned out to be very reliable from people I've spoken with, and that leaves Subaru, which appears to be pretty reliable. (I think.....)
cdndriver
Now that your Outback was sorted out, I'd keep that long-term too. We only dumped our 626 after 7 years, and it had 5 break downs in the last 18 months.
I like the MR2 also, just can't get over the styling. The headlights are too big. I'm thinking about trading my '93 Miata for a '99 Miata, but those got heavier. The MR2 is lighter, but it also costs a lot more. It would be a nice toy, though.
You'll lose about 10% of value each year for just about any Soob. An L/SE costs less to begin with, so yeah, it'll depreciate less, but as a percentage it should be similar, maybe only slightly better.
-juice
Now, important enough that you invest in something you like and would appreciate not something you're not sure of but the $$$ offer is attractive. That's not smart buying... remember, it's your money and when the salesperson goes home, he/she is happy but you're not, not to mention you'll be stuck with it.
Subaru's are very reliable and that's one thing you can count on.
Older Legacy models like the '00 are hard to come by (at least in the US) unless it has high miles, but are still reliable. It's just a matter of what makes you happy....
One thing, the '03's have a very good lease offer now (again, in the US), so check into that and see...
Good Luck!
-juice
I didn't have time to search much and only saw one Legacy wagon back there and didn't have time to check it out - it looked rough though. Is the Legacy as much (more?) fun to drive than the Outback?
I may have to seriously start shopping....
Steve, Host
We'd love to see a host join the ranks! :-)
-juice
IdahoDoug
IdahoDoug
What about ground clearance w/ the Legacy vs the Outback?
Steve, Host
Claimed, anyway.
-juice
Also, is it ok to use tire chains with an Outback?
M & S rated actually means squat except that there is an industry definition that the contact patch is 25% empty (or maybe it was 20), it doesn't actually measure performance in snow or mud! Its a throwback to several decades ago when there were non radial tires and tread design science was close to non existent.
All season has no formal definition though it usually means the rubber compound is neither a summer performance type or a winter one!
dude- most manufacturers will not honor warranty on cars brought across canadian border.
Your point is well taken. I prefer the legacy, but my wife and daughter went nuts over a sort of gold/copper Forester at the dealership. thanks for the ideas, I'll check out the rates.
Dude,
Cars in Canada have slightly different glass and a few other little things that you'd need to get checked out. The best way to find out customs, duty, etc., is to just phone US Customs, or find them on the web. There's probably a FAQ section that covers everything you need to know on it. My car rental friend tells me that they sell lots of theri fleet cars in the States after they pull them out of service. So I know it's possible. We can't bring US cars up here though because of the glass, etc.. Not to mention the price.
regards,
cdndriver