Subaru Legacy/Outback

kullenberg

You might want to take a look at Nokians from Finland. The Hakka 1 is a dedicated winter tire - awesome, and the WR is a M/S winter rated, with a 50K MI tread Guaranty. (winters are tough in Finland)

laker64

Thanks to all for the sunroof advice. I'm convinced that it would make sense to get it especially since we would really use it here in FL.
Could anyone share what they paid recently for an '03 SE wagon with automatic? The local saleman indicated that the lowest price would be $21K.

4petite

Over the past few weeks I've really enjoyed reading these boards. I'm finally planning to buy a new car (been driving a wonderfully reliable '90 corolla for over 8 years). It's been a tough decision process and I appreciate all the comments.

Last weekend it came down to the Passat GLS FWD wagon versus the base Subaru Outback wagon. While I like the Passat slightly more (except the price and manual seat), I found that I end up on the ball of my foot if I want to floor the gas pedal (I'm 5'0") and don't feel this is very safe.

So I am now leaning towards the Outback and need to decide on the color. My dealer has now warned me to choose carefully because the mystic blue and timberline green (and black of course) can show swirl marks when the car is washed improperly. I was wondering for those who've had these colors and occasionally use the drive-thru car wash, if they've had this problem? If so, how bad is it?

Finally, is there a way to see any ratings for dealerships? I'm in the SF Bay Area and would like to know which dealerships are supposedly better to customers for both sales and service.

fibber2

The key may be the heavy wet slush you were driving thru. I suspect your problem was not the tranny itself, but the linkage. The free space around it may have gotten packed tight, limiting travel. 1st and 3rd are in the same direction, 2nd in the opposite (probably uses another linkage rod). Just a thought....

I had the predessor to the current A2 (Dunlop D60-A2) on my Camry wagon. Great on dry, no very good in snow at all.

So far I am happy with the Dunlop Winter Sport tires I got from Tire Rack. A sizable improvement over the OEM Bridgestones. Check out Nov '02 Consumers for a snow tire review.

Steve

fibber2

PS: The 'boxer' sound may also have been snow pack related. If you compress enough between the engine/trans and the lower firewall / under pan, you limit the travel of the motor mounts, as well as couple the powertrain vibration to the body.

Steve

jay_24

I've never noticed that when washing. However when you wax, you have to watch the polishing a bit closer. Not that its doing any damage, but just leaves the swirl look. I have a dark blue OB wagon.

Tranny/shifting issue. I'll agree with Steve. I've had similar with an automatic. I pulled into a little road/path in the woods to do some hunting, I couldn't shift to reverse when leaving. A little stick got stuck up in the linkage...

--jay

ateixeira

Yeah, dark colors on any car will reveal flaws in the paint more obviously, and also look dirty sooner.

The colors that would hide dirt best are probably the SeaMist Green Pearl, Silver Stone Metallic, Titanium Pearl (and it's monotone, nice!), and White Frost Pearl.

But you have to like it, looks are subjective.

-juice

subearu

just help prove your OCD worthiness. Darker colors that are well kept are almost always kept by members of the OCD club.

-Brian

bkaiser1

Thanks for the tip, that turned out to be exactly what the problem was yesterday. On my way home from work, I swung by the dealer because the car was still making the noise (but was shifting fine) ... they confirmed that an ice shield had formed under the car and was causing the problems. They knocked the ice off, I was on my way, and the car is fine! Thanks again!
Brian

ateixeira

Wow! That's incredible, must be CHILLY!

-juice

bkaiser1

I just got a call from the service manager at my Subaru dealer here to talk about my clutch -- he was disturbed by the horrible survey responses that I had sent in regarging Subaru and Lithia's service department. I get a survey from Subaru about once every 2 months, and I rant in every one about my clutch and their inability to fix it.

Anyway, he said that starting today a fix has been released that should cure the horrid shuddering that my car has exhibited since it was new. The parts just became available today, so he's going to try and get the car in this morning for a new clutch assembly.

I'm shocked, to say the least, that anyone actually read the surveys I mailed in (or did online via Subaru's website). I'm more shocked that the service manager called out of the blue to offer a new clutch for this car. Wow. I sincerely hope that this ends my 2 year battle with Subaru over an otherwise fine car.

Brian

ateixeira

Good news, please keep us posted. Ask them exactly what the fix is (new pressure plate?), and who would be eligible for it.

-juice

jfl

All the kids at i-club say bad things about Stevens Creek Subaru. However, I got my Legacy there via the internet at a good price. However, they have lots of turnover in both service and sales personnel.

I recall that Santa Cruz and Carlson in Redwood City were highly regarded. Lately, I've been having my car serviced at Downtown Subaru in Oakland because they're open on Saturday. The service advisors were knowledgable. (The shop also services Toyotas.) I don't know about their pricing.

Good luck!

Jim

originalbitman

Carlsen in Redwood City. Ask for Greg Gulbrandson. Nice guy, straightforward, no hassles. When I bought my 01 they were selling for a flat no haggle $300 over invoice. No hidden charges. Tell him that OCD guy who measured the height of every corner of the car sent you. Or maybe you shouldn't.

bit

bigelm

Just out of experience and the experience of many others....

The clutch shudder tends to be something 'normal' in Subarus. I didn't read all the way to prior posts but I'm guessing you have a stick... Many have changed the clutch under warranty and the shudder eventually comes back. Seems like the clutches that Subaru uses are not of great quality. Once you go aftermarket, then the shudder is gone. If your car is a lease, then it may not make sense to get aftermarket unless Subaru will pay for it (highly doubt that), otherwise Subaru will get to know you as another statistic until they resolve this issue. But hopefully you'll be one of the very, very few that will have the shudder disappear completely.

Either way.... good luck!

otis123

Greg & others,

Thanks for the feedback on the Dunlops in snow. Anyone have other snow-worthy suggestions for replacement tires (M&S like the original Firestones - not snow tires). Also desire quiet and sticky good cornering. Does such a tire even exist (at any price)? Michelin Pilots? Thanks in advance.

Ralph

4petite

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but after going through more than 10 screens of this discussion board, I haven't seen a good summary of the differences between the GT and the Outback.

I know the suspension and tires are different, as well as the outside appearance. I wish I could get a sunroof in the Outback and thus am curious whether I should look into the GT? I'm in Northern California, so I deal with rain and camp grounds but only see snow when I drive to Tahoe.

bkaiser1

Juice, I just dropped off the car to get the new clutch assembly and the manager showed me Subaru's TSB entitled "Clutch Shuddering when Cold" or something to that effect, dated yesterday. It listed several redesigned parts including a new flywheel and pressure plate. There were also some barings and such, but I didn't really study it. I'll get a copy of the parts list tonite when the car is finished.

Basically, the TSB should allow anyone under the 3/36 warranty to get the fix done immediately if they are having cold shuddering issues. Since mine is out of the factory warranty now with 43K onit, the service manager had to call the factory rep for authorization, but had no trouble getting it approved. I've had about a dozen documented complaints about the problem since the car was new.

I hope the new clutch design works -- it's been a long time coming! Unfortunately, I won't be able to drive the car until I get back in town in January so it'll be a few weeks until I know how the new one feels.

Brian

ateixeira

Cool. I'm curious to see how it'll feel (the clutch, that is) after the fix. The real test will be tomorrow morning, when the powertrain is cold.

-juice

fibber2

Good to hear that is was just snow pack. So do I get a gold star??? ;-)

Steve

rob999

Brian - if'n when you get a chance, would you post the TSB number on that clutch repair.

ateixeira

Yes, Steve wins the Subaru Crew OCD Club's "Nice Catch" award, for thinking of even the most remote possibilities.

Way to go.

-juice

dude

I was in the same boat before I bought my GT. In my case it came down to pretty much this: Do I want a sports wagon, or do I get a wagon that everybody drives here in Colorado in Outback? So, I bought the GT. Also, to me, outbacks from 95-99 are not very good looking and GT looks totally cool. Of course GT has drawbacks too. I'd prefer to get a auxilary power socket in the back. Also, a cold weather package would hurt either. (it's standard on 03) I think that pretty much it. Hope this helps

fibber2

I don't know what to say.....
Thanks to all the little people out there (oh, wait a minute - wrong acceptance speech).

Steve

originalbitman

When first shopping for a wagon we looked a lot at Volvos and Passats unaware that anything other than the Outback existed at Subaru. We rented both a Volvo V70 and an auto Outback in the process. One look (and ride) in the GT sold us. Uniqueness of not being another OB plus we liked the monochrome look and the handling along with (yes really) the dual moonroofs. We live in northern CA too. Eureka now but Burlingmae when we bought it. Never found a time where I wished I had the additional ride height of the OB... well other that an occasional steep driveway. Trips in the snow have not been a problem.

bit

ateixeira

Since you said Outback sans moonroof, you must mean the base model. So let's see.

The GT is sportier. Lower profile tires, lower springs, shorter effective gearing (by 7%). It also offers VTD and the shiftronic if you get an automatic. It should be quicker and handle more sporty, though ride won't be as tolerant. You give up the roof rack cross bars but gets leather, plus the two-tone and the power outlet in the cargo area. Plus you get the dual moonroof.

The Outback has more suspension travel and clearance, plus the cross bars and heated seats/mirrors/wiper de-icers. Nice stuff in the cold. Really it's about the ideal snow car. The focus is more on utility vs. sportiness, you even get the cargo area rubber liner standard.

You could put the cross bars and liner on a GT, of course, but the GT runs about $24k or so, and the base Outback is much less. An Outback Limited might be around $25k, if you can make that leap.

If you can stretch it and want a bargain, fitzmall.com had a left over 2002 VDC for $25,571, an amazing price. They must be losing money on that. It includes freight too. That way you get the H6 and it's loaded to the gills. I find that a better value than the 2.5 GT or Outback Limited, given the steep discount.

-juice

cdndriver

hi,
I have received a dealer quote on a '03 Legacy Special edition for 800 over invoice plus frt/pdi, and an "administration fee" of $100.00. Does this sound like a good deal? Also is this "admin fee" legit, or just another way to grab some cash?
thanks,\
cdndriver
oh, this is Canada price.

bkaiser1

good call yesterday regarding the ice shield under the car...thanks again for the input. It takes pretty rare conditions to allow that kind of ice to build up on the shift linkage under there, and yesterday was just one of those days. I'll know if it ever happens again...

Regarding the TSB# on that new clutch assembly, I'll try to get a copy tonite when I pick up the car, but I won't be near my computer for a couple of weeks. I'll update the board here in January.

Happy holidays all!

Brian

nygreg

good luck with the clutch. I think this is a test for Subaru. Did they study?

Greg

4petite

Thanks. Leather is standard in the GT? When I looked at carsdirect.com it showed cloth as the default. Besides the reason I'm not interested in the Limited Outback is that I don't want the leather (and I'm trying to stay under $23K.

And according to this website, at least for California, it looks like you the price differential is not very big. Carsdirect is estimating $22,000 for the base GT with auto. Plus I have been quote as far down as $500 under invoice for the base Outback with auto.

What do you mean by "less tolerant" - of what the bumps?

nygreg

Which one do you like?? I think ultimately it comes down to which look you like - sporty or rugged? They are both great cars and you can convince yourself to accept the pluses and minuses of each one. c'mon get emotional, it's the fun part.

Greg

20llbean

It's been a while since I visited the hall. Most recent snow storm in the Philadelphia region gave me the chance to take out the subie. Car performed well overall. only rear issue was the front ice defroster on the outback didn't really do the job of unfrezzing the snow build up. Overwise the car was great!

I have one question to the crew, I picked up a rear differential protector and after unpacking it states that the unit is install with the car on a left. Was wondering if anyone has installed the unit without using a car lift? Is this too unsafe to avoid using a car lift? Thanks and happy holidays to all!

ateixeira

That's good, Brian, you'll have a good chance to test it out and report back. ;-)

The GT has less suspension travel, so hit a big enough pot hole and it'll bottom out, at least long before an Outback would. There is also less sidewall on the tires, so again it'll feel more firm. Sportier, but not as soft.

For US models, the 2003 2.5 GT has heated leather and a moonroof standard now. Are you looking at left over 2002s? The 2002 GT had cloth, the 2002 GT Ltd had leather.

Basically they moved the L/SE up to fill the slot formerly occupied by the GT, and the 2.5GT moved up to where the GT Ltd used to be.

I agree that it's a personal decision, you should drive both and will hopefully have a clear preference. What some people consider sporty handling and feedback on a GT others consider harsh and noisy. And what may feel luxurious and comfy on an Outback to some, might feel floaty and disconnected to others.

Rich: I'm not sure about the H6, but with the H4 rhino ramps are more than enough. On Foresters, note that you have to remove some exhaust hangers to install it, but that's not the case on H4 Outbacks. It's easy, 6 bolts. Get a torque wrench with a long shaft for leverage.

-juice

nygreg

I installed a diffy protector without using a lift. No problems. It's been on for a year now. I believe the torque was 55 ft/lbs. They only sent two new nuts for the rear bolts. The front bolts use the existing nuts. Didn't know why. Of course, I waxed it before installation.

Greg

ateixeira

Waxed mine too, still looks cleaner than anything else on the underbody.

-juice

nygreg

Hear are some pics. Check out pics 5+.

<"http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=4292155229">

Greg

4petite

My mistake on the GT - that's what happens when you're trying to look at too sites at once. At least the price is near invoice.

Thanks for all the helpful comments.

Does anoyone know of a place to look at dealership customer feedback?

ateixeira

Looks far easier than on the Forester. No exhaust in the way. The plate itself also looks different than mine, so make sure to specify your model.

-juice

20llbean

Thanks to all! I received two hex nuts in the package. Have to take off two others already on the car. I will give it a go this weekend without ramps, if I need them a neighbor has a pair.

ateixeira

On mine it was 2 per side already on it, so 4 + 2 made 6 total.

-juice

4petite

My mistake on the GT - that's what happens when you're trying to look at too sites at once. At least the price is near invoice.

Thanks for all the helpful comments.

Does anoyone know of a place to look at dealership customer feedback?

jfl

You were originally considering the Passat wagon vs. the Outback. You might also want to consider the Subaru Legacy L/Special Edition wagon. It has the same engine as the GT and costs about $4000 less. It's probably the best value in Legacys.

Jim

ateixeira

Yeah, you get the cloth you wanted, a moonroof, 16" alloys, all for under $20 grand around here, even with auto.

The seats are not heated, but other than that it's quite well equipped.

-juice

dude

The only problem I see with L/SE is that the driver seat doesn't have height adjustment and lumbar support.

ateixeira

Well, in that price range you can't expect too much. Actually the Forester L has both, if you like Foresters.

-juice

mrdetailer

If you don't have a family, you might want to seriously look at a Forrester.

As far as color, quite honestly the closer you can get to white the easier it is to maintain. But Red looks so sweet, as do dark greens or blues. More effort however.

xccoachlou

from a dealer's web site near me. I have made the prices appear in bold face.

USED specials...

2001 Subaru Outback Limited Wagon AWD - Auto, Leather, Dual Moonroofs, Heated Seats, Power Windows/Locks/Mirrors, AM/FM/6-CD Changer - 36,581 miles - Stk # SUU0714 - just $20,986

2002 Subaru Impreza WRX Sedan AWD - Auto, Power Windows/Locks/Mirrors, AM/FM/6-CD Changer, MOMO Steering Wheel, Alloy Wheels - 20,014 miles - Stk # SUU0710 - just $21,986

NEW
2003 Subaru Impreza WRX Sedan LOADED!

Stk # SU30097 4 Door, Turbo, 5-Speed, A/C, Power Windows/Locks/Mirrors, ABS, AM/FM/6-CD Changer, Tilt, Cruise, Front/Side Airbags, Alloy Wheels, plus:

Short Throw Shifter
Premium Sound Package
Security System
Performance Guage Pack
Carbon Fiber Patterned Trim
Electrochromatic Compass Mirror
Armrest Extension
MSRP $27,423 Buy for $24,486!

BTW MSRP on an 03 Outback LTD is around $27,930 minus a $500 dealer incentive which brings it to $27,430, and you can buy one for around $25,300.

ransher

What is the invoice price the dealer quoted you on the '03 Legacy Special Edition? Did you make use of sites like www.carhelpcanada.com or one of those?

cdndriver

HI, I didn't know if I was going to get an answer from anyone.
I used one of the other services. the invoice was about 2000 below msrp. like in the States. I don't know why you can't get it on the net here, but you can't... it's even harder to find holdback or incentive information.
cdndriver

4petite

After driving a corolla for so many years, I learned what to appreciate. Constantly flicking the windshield wiper switch while driving can get annoying. It may seem trivial, but I must have intermittent wipers. Alas, the legacy SE doesn't offer them.

On another topic... child seat teathers.
I plan to keep this car for many years to come and although it's not an issue now, it could be in the future. I would like to know what people think of the position of the child seat teathers in the 2003 Outback and 2003 Passat wagons? In the Outback, they are on the ceiling - does this affect your rear view sight (with a child seat strapped in)? In the Passat they are on the back of the rear seats. What happens when you need a flat cargo area with the rear seats folded - do the child seat teathers get in the way?