No, the gear ratios are identical 1-5 and R, IIRC.
The tire diameters to have an effect, too. If we use the L as a base line, the Outback is geared 5.4% shorter. But then its tires have 10% more diameter, so the net effect is about 4.6% taller gearing.
The GT is also geared 5.4% shorter, but its tires have just 2.7% more diameter, so it is effectively geared 2.7% shorter than the L.
So the GT is probably the quickest, while the Outback probably revs lowest at high speeds.
The L is lightest, so it probably falls inbetween the two, actually.
3500 @ 60 sounds about right... and it is high compared to other vehicles (a former Honda of mine ran about 1k rpm less at the same speed). Took some getting used to the higher RPM's when I got my '97 OB 5MT, but the advantage is that it requires less frequent downshifts for passing, since you're right in the middle of the torque/power range. As long as you can't hear/feel any clutch slippage, you're good to go.
A while back I had just made a quick call to SOA - I think I talked to the warranty dept. - I've got the classic 2 yr coverage. I don't even remember who I talked to - they just said they didn't have that kind in info...I was just curious... not a biggie Patti
I am wondering, though, if I should get the motor checked. Lot of lifter and main bearing noise until she's warm... got 75K on it... any sugg? - No oil loss, just concerned...
Our LL Bean (2001) with about 350 miles seems to have a warped rotor feel, a rotating/bumping feel/sound. Could this be a break-in period (I've never experienced this before with any other new vehicle) or should this be checked immediately?
I have an '00 L 5sp wagon, and it runs at about 2700 rpm @ 60 mph. With the larger tires on the OB, I would expect the rpm's to be lower than 3500 for 5th gear.
Yum Yum. My xt6 will have bad valve tap whenever it is down even a 1/4 of a quart of oil. Heavier oil helps though. I run 10-40 in it, in the summer I usually use 15-40 to replenish between oil changes.
I paid attention driving this weekend - on my '01 5 sp at 65-75, 3000 to just slightly over, even with AC running. I have just about 16K on the car. At 60 it's below 3000.
I had a warped rotor when I picked up my 01 OB in April. Dealership gave me 2 new rotors up front and "cleaned up" the rear rotors. Great since. Only guess is that the lugs were torqued to high.
Recently had my front rotors resurfaced at 11K on my LLBean (for free). They were slightly warped (noticed it mainly when braking hard off the parkway - due to short deceleration ramps). Had the same problem with my 92Camry after about 5K miles worth of wear on the rotors, but learned to live with it after repeated resurfacing....
Interesting to see that the 5spd runs such high RPM's compared to the automatic. I now have about 750 miles on my '02 OB and have made some observations about it's performance. While a bit slower off the line than the '93 Corolla wagon it replaced, the H4 seems to have a nice thick midrange powerband.
Under normal circumstances, engine speed at 60mph is about 2300rpm (overdrive with the torque converter in 'lockup'). This produces some strain on a steep, continuous grade such as NY Rt 17 at Wurtsboro Mountain. A fast 'lift and jab' at the accelerator pedal knocks it out of 'lockup' mode but keeps it in 4th gear. RPM jumps up to about 2800 and it pulls like nobody's business. Probably as well as my Camry V6 did in its day. Has anybody seen a Torque/Horsepower graph for this engine? I have only seen peak numbers published. Just curious.......
On the subject of valve noise, I pulled a steep climb immediately after a cold morning startup and was suprised at the amount of valve tappet noise. It diminished and went silent as soon as the engine temp rose (about 1-2 minutes). How is lash adjustment achieved on this engine? Hydraulic lifters or mechanical (shims or screw/nut)? I wonder how much free-play noise is considered normal....
Is there a better forum for asking technical questions?
For those of you that have been plagued with engine pinging in your 2000 or newer Legacy/OB good news is finally available.
An engineer from Fuji was in the USA last week and drove my car. After the car was consistently pinging he swapped computers with one he had in his briefcase. (Identical computer but with a different program). The pinging stopped and has not reappeared. Under speeds and driving conditions that previously resulted in heavy pinging now result in a few brief pings and then it immediately stops. You really need to be listening to detect these few brief pings.
The revised program is still undergoing final testing. Since the program mods do not impact vehicle emissions it does not need to be re-certified by the fed'l govt. The program should be available thru SoA in a few weeks for downloading onto ecm's of cars that are experiencing similar problems.
It sure is nice to finally be able to drive my OB with a quiet engine.
I'll also cross post this in the maintenance forum.
There is a wide variation as Juice says. My daughter's Merc Tracer alloys needs 80lbs, my TR8 factory alloys needs 120lbs. But I had a puncture on the 8 and couldn't get the wheel off with my spider, so had to take it to the shop. The mechanic checked the torque manually and found it to be well over the 150lb maximum on his wrench. But no apparent damage to the front disk.
My '01 LLBean is doing it too (Squealing brakes when you back up). It has been mentioned here before. I thought I read that a fix is on the way but not widely available yet. I suspect Patti could confirm this.
Took long trips over the last two weekends and now have over 4,200 miles on the 'Bean. I love it more and more the more I get to drive it. (Wife drives it most of the time). It sure is a smooth running car.
I just had the oil changed at Whitebear Subaru on Monday. I asked about the break squeal fix and he said they have the shims in stock to fix the problem.
I have it too on my 01 LLbean. Mentioned it to the dealer at the 3K oil change and they wanted the car overnight to check. I didn't want to part with it just yet but mentioned that many owners have a similar problem. Of course they stated that they have not had a compliant or a TB from SOA on the problem. Dealer playing dumb?!? My next oil change is coming and I will definitely mention the fix from post 2875.
FYI - the shims are available, but they are for a "specific" brake squeal - backing up first thing in the AM.
If your dealer says they have not heard of a fix, ask them to contact SOA or their Rep. The shims are available. I don't think a dealer would simply play dumb on purpose. Sometimes, the information does not get shared as quickly within a dealership. Let 'em know what you know and I'm sure they'd appreciate it.
Thanks for the input. Most cars recommend the sequence you both indicated but I know of some manufactures (think VW is one of them) that has a different sequence. I called 3 Subaru dealers and two indicated the same sequence listed by juice but one indicated a cross pattern such as RR, LF, LR, RF. I installed speedbleeders on my car and forgot to monitor the break fluid level. It got too low and air entered the break line. I've put back the original bleeders and have bled the system 3 times now. The breaks still don't feel quite right which is why I wanted to verify the sequence. Since the Legacy uses ABS, I think there might be a bit more involved then just bleeding at the calipers. I've heard that you must also bleed at the master cylinder, i.e. break the hose connections. If anyone has done the additional bleeding at the master cylinder, could you please provide some guidance on this procedure. By the way, the car is safe to drive as the normal bleeding process has gotten almost all air out of the system. I just feel like there still might be a bit left as there is a noticable difference when I apply the breaks now then before I started all this.
Chuck: wish I could help more. Haven't done any work on my brakes yet. Mine was recalled to replace the brake master cylinder, so they changed the fluid by default. IIRC I have only about 22k miles on the current fluid.
Pinging: Was that solution for the H6 ping or the H4 PII ping problem? One of my friends with H4 preigntion (not really the same as ping but related) solved (more like greatly reduced) his problem by switching to NGK plugs instead of Champion. I was thinking of doing the same thing but if there is a computational solution I dont mind waiting. Does anyone know if the NGK plugs are "colder" than the Champion plugs? The combination may work even better.
RPM: Wow!!! 3k rpm at 65? Our OB Ltd. (2000/auto) sees 3k rpm at 75mph. 85mph is close to 3500rpm. Even then the engine is pretty quiet. Wind noise is mostly what you hear. That (I think) is mostly from the really big side mirrors that I would not give up anyway.
My Mazda Protege ES 2.0 on the other hand is at 3500-4000rpm all the way to work at 70-80mph. Its a screamer but it does not seem to mind...I still get 27-28mpg.
Another strange thing is that both the Mazda Protege ES 2.0 (auto) and the Outback (auto) have similar EPA fuel economy ratings. The difference is that I can actually get 28mpg highway easily witht he Mazda even at 70-80mph for my daily commute. Driving the same way in the OB gets me 20mpg so I tend to drive it a little slower. Over the last year my fuel economy has even been dropping slowly. From 24mpg mostly highway to 22mpg driving the same way. In about a month its going in for its 30k so lets see if a combination of stuff helps it back to full strength.
I like the Protege5 lots, even test drove one recently. It's quite a bit smaller than the Outback, though. No fair comparing a 2.0l FWD compact with a 2.5l AWD mid-sizer.
The computer on my 2000 Outback was also just replaced with a reprogrammed one, with the same results as Vince. No more excessive pinging. I'm hoping this is a final solution to the pinging issue, and that the 30,000 + miles that I put on the car while the excessive pinging was occuring did not cause long-term damage to the engine.
I think Vince and I were a test for their reprogrammed ECU. It was all under warranty. I would assume SOA will only replace the computer if you have documented the pinging problem with your dealer. To my knowledge there is no range of VIN's - this is a problem that occurred on some of the 4 cyl. Phase II engines and the ECU that went along with it. No rhyme or reason to the pinging... it just occured on some Subaru's.
Not sure if the NGK plugs are colder than the stock Champion plugs. The dealer tried colder Champion plugs in my car but it didn't stop the pinging. This probably means the pinging was not pre-ignition. Vince
juice- I was just comparing their EPA ratings. They do have similar fuel economy ratings even though the OB is about 1000lbs more than the ES. My beef with the EPA/Subaru is that I think that the ratings for the OB are inflated. If I remember correctly the OB is rated at 22 city / 27 highway. I think it should be rated at 18 city / 24 highway. I think the Protege is listed at 25 city / 30 highway. So far that seem right on. Every car I have ever had has met or exceeded the EPA numbers. The Subaru OB can only get 27 if I dont stop, drive 65mph, and have cruise on for 350 miles. Thats not realistic....neither is the way the EPA determines fuel economy but thats another rant. When I drive the Protege without visiting red line in 2 gears several times and drive 65mph on my way to work I get 33mpg (65mph constant, light foot). Driven the same way (with even ligher foot and closer to 60mph) the best the OB does is 24mpg. Usually in the Protege I take the long way to the highway so I can have the long on-ramp where I can bury it all the way to 80mph. Yea, its just so I can hear the engine rev. I just like the sound. Not as much fun as a muscle car but there is a nice little curve I can catch at 45mph on the ramp....now thats fun. Then usually I get off at an exit to get dougnut and, more importantly, so I can do the 0-80mph thing again. Still the Protege gets 27-28mpg and thats still going up. I dont drive the OB like that. If I did I would be lucky to be in the teens. Really my commute is all highway and I commute off hours so there is little traffic. 25 miles highway and 2 miles back road. No stopping and starting and no sitting in traffic. Its really the most highway one can get in real-world commuting. So when I cant get what the ratings say it makes me cranky. The 89 Taurus I traded in with 157k was still getting 27mpg on the same ride. Right now we are only getting about 22mpg in the OB so it really needs to get checked out. Thats pretty bad. We are moving on the third dealer to resolve some of the issues that remain annoying.
Well, I have a different Mazda to compare. We have a 2.5l Forester and a 2.5l Mazda 626. The Forester averages 25mpg (22/27 is about right for me), charted for more than a year, with AWD.
The 626 does slightly worse, averaging about 22 or 23 mpg. It doesn't match the Forester in city or highway, really. While it is a V6, the Soob actually has 1 hp and 4 ft-lbs of torque advantage (165/162 vs. 164/160).
The 626 has more passenger room, but the Forester can haul about 4 times as much cargo as the sedan. The 626 is a bit quicker, but the short gearing that makes it quick also makes it consume more fuel.
If you compare AWD competitors, the Subies start to look better and better.
Hi, I haven't posted in a while, but we still have the 2001 h4 and it's still pinging. All of the trade-in deals we were offered were just not worth it. We would have lost around $6000. Please tell me more about the fix -- replacing the ECU with a reprogrammed one? Should I call SoA again and discuss this as an option. The pinging drives me so crazy that I let my husband drive it to work daily and I drive his old honda civic. Thanks Sharon
Since I done my own oil changes before, I though I might ask if there's any problems doing my first oil change on my "02 legacy which has 750 miles right now but I want to do it before the real cold weather hits. Or should I wait for 2000 miles or so before the first change.
I think the manual Subaru wagons need a lower 1st gear and a higher 5th. Starting seems a little too difficult with out slipping the clutch much and the RPM's are higher then they need to be on the highway. Anyone else agree or disagree? My Bridgestone Potenza's have worn down to the wear markers in only 15,000 miles and 15 months. Has anyone else experienced tire life so short?
I am sure that this has been covered before, but is the color impregnated into the bodyside lower cladding on the OB, or is it just a surface finish. Should it be waxed along with the paint, treated differently, or just left alone???
750 miles is a little early, since it's suppoed to happen at 3k miles. I did mine at 1k miles, and it's running like a gem, so it should be OK.
I find the gear ratios evenly spread. First is low enough to tow 1500 lbs or get me around on the beach sand, while 5th puts the revs nice and low, for quiet and efficiency.
What I'd like to see is a 6 speed, then you could get the lower 1st and taller 6th without having the ratios spread too far apart.
Speak of the devil, here is Edmunds' preview of the next 626:
Looks good. The wagon is gorgeous, and may put additional pressure on Subaru. Even though AWD is not offered, Subaru used to pretty much have the wagon market to themselves.
219hp, 5 speed auto, side curtain air bags, ... this stuff is getting more and more common.
Comments
-mike
-juice
Or is that difference due to the difference in tire diameter?
-mike
The tire diameters to have an effect, too. If we use the L as a base line, the Outback is geared 5.4% shorter. But then its tires have 10% more diameter, so the net effect is about 4.6% taller gearing.
The GT is also geared 5.4% shorter, but its tires have just 2.7% more diameter, so it is effectively geared 2.7% shorter than the L.
So the GT is probably the quickest, while the Outback probably revs lowest at high speeds.
The L is lightest, so it probably falls inbetween the two, actually.
-juice
Matt
Cheers!
Paul
Thanks!
Patti
Patti,
A while back I had just made a quick call to SOA - I think I talked to the warranty dept. - I've got the classic 2 yr coverage. I don't even remember who I talked to - they just said they didn't have that kind in info...I was just curious... not a biggie Patti
I am wondering, though, if I should get the motor checked. Lot of lifter and main bearing noise until she's warm... got 75K on it... any sugg? - No oil loss, just concerned...
Matt
I have an '00 L 5sp wagon, and it runs at about 2700 rpm @ 60 mph. With the larger tires on the OB, I would expect the rpm's to be lower than 3500 for 5th gear.
Thanks!
Patti
It's harmless, though. Fresh oil quiets them a little.
Carl: sounds like you need the brake shim fix. You are the perfect candidate for it. The fix is trickling into dealerships.
-juice
-mike
Greg
-juice
Only "problem" with car so far (12K now)...
Under normal circumstances, engine speed at 60mph is about 2300rpm (overdrive with the torque converter in 'lockup'). This produces some strain on a steep, continuous grade such as NY Rt 17 at Wurtsboro Mountain. A fast 'lift and jab' at the accelerator pedal knocks it out of 'lockup' mode but keeps it in 4th gear. RPM jumps up to about 2800 and it pulls like nobody's business. Probably as well as my Camry V6 did in its day. Has anybody seen a Torque/Horsepower graph for this engine? I have only seen peak numbers published. Just curious.......
On the subject of valve noise, I pulled a steep climb immediately after a cold morning startup and was suprised at the amount of valve tappet noise. It diminished and went silent as soon as the engine temp rose (about 1-2 minutes). How is lash adjustment achieved on this engine? Hydraulic lifters or mechanical (shims or screw/nut)? I wonder how much free-play noise is considered normal....
Is there a better forum for asking technical questions?
Steve
An engineer from Fuji was in the USA last week and drove my car. After the car was consistently pinging he swapped computers with one he had in his briefcase. (Identical computer but with a different program). The pinging stopped and has not reappeared. Under speeds and driving conditions that previously resulted in heavy pinging now result in a few brief pings and then it immediately stops. You really need to be listening to detect these few brief pings.
The revised program is still undergoing final testing. Since the program mods do not impact vehicle emissions it does not need to be re-certified by the fed'l govt. The program should be available thru SoA in a few weeks for downloading onto ecm's of cars that are experiencing similar problems.
It sure is nice to finally be able to drive my OB with a quiet engine.
I'll also cross post this in the maintenance forum.
Vince
-juice
Took long trips over the last two weekends and now have over 4,200 miles on the 'Bean. I love it more and more the more I get to drive it. (Wife drives it most of the time). It sure is a smooth running car.
Paul in MN.
I just had the oil changed at Whitebear Subaru on Monday. I asked about the break squeal fix and he said they have the shims in stock to fix the problem.
--Jay
-juice
If your dealer says they have not heard of a fix, ask them to contact SOA or their Rep. The shims are available. I don't think a dealer would simply play dumb on purpose. Sometimes, the information does not get shared as quickly within a dealership. Let 'em know what you know and I'm sure they'd appreciate it.
Thanks!
Patti
Greg
-juice
Juice,
Thanks for the input. Most cars recommend the sequence you both indicated but I know of some manufactures (think VW is one of them) that has a different sequence. I called 3 Subaru dealers and two indicated the same sequence listed by juice but one indicated a cross pattern such as RR, LF, LR, RF. I installed speedbleeders on my car and forgot to monitor the break fluid level. It got too low and air entered the break line. I've put back the original bleeders and have bled the system 3 times now. The breaks still don't feel quite right which is why I wanted to verify the sequence. Since the Legacy uses ABS, I think there might be a bit more involved then just bleeding at the calipers. I've heard that you must also bleed at the master cylinder, i.e. break the hose connections. If anyone has done the additional bleeding at the master cylinder, could you please provide some guidance on this procedure. By the way, the car is safe to drive as the normal bleeding process has gotten almost all air out of the system. I just feel like there still might be a bit left as there is a noticable difference when I apply the breaks now then before I started all this.
Chuck
To OTIS123 - Agree, I guess one can refer to the noise as an added feature!
Chuck: wish I could help more. Haven't done any work on my brakes yet. Mine was recalled to replace the brake master cylinder, so they changed the fluid by default. IIRC I have only about 22k miles on the current fluid.
-juice
RPM: Wow!!! 3k rpm at 65? Our OB Ltd. (2000/auto) sees 3k rpm at 75mph. 85mph is close to 3500rpm. Even then the engine is pretty quiet. Wind noise is mostly what you hear. That (I think) is mostly from the really big side mirrors that I would not give up anyway.
My Mazda Protege ES 2.0 on the other hand is at 3500-4000rpm all the way to work at 70-80mph. Its a screamer but it does not seem to mind...I still get 27-28mpg.
Another strange thing is that both the Mazda Protege ES 2.0 (auto) and the Outback (auto) have similar EPA fuel economy ratings. The difference is that I can actually get 28mpg highway easily witht he Mazda even at 70-80mph for my daily commute. Driving the same way in the OB gets me 20mpg so I tend to drive it a little slower. Over the last year my fuel economy has even been dropping slowly. From 24mpg mostly highway to 22mpg driving the same way. In about a month its going in for its 30k so lets see if a combination of stuff helps it back to full strength.
Do you know what year/models were recalled on the break master cylinder.
chuck
I like the Protege5 lots, even test drove one recently. It's quite a bit smaller than the Outback, though. No fair comparing a 2.0l FWD compact with a 2.5l AWD mid-sizer.
-juice
-Eric
Do you just bring in the car for the computer replacement under warranty? Does SoA indicate the range of VINs for a free replacement?
Thanks!
--Tak
Vince
77mph @ 2750RPMs
XT6:
77mph @ 3100RPMs
both 4EATs
-mike
When I drive the Protege without visiting red line in 2 gears several times and drive 65mph on my way to work I get 33mpg (65mph constant, light foot). Driven the same way (with even ligher foot and closer to 60mph) the best the OB does is 24mpg. Usually in the Protege I take the long way to the highway so I can have the long on-ramp where I can bury it all the way to 80mph. Yea, its just so I can hear the engine rev. I just like the sound. Not as much fun as a muscle car but there is a nice little curve I can catch at 45mph on the ramp....now thats fun. Then usually I get off at an exit to get dougnut and, more importantly, so I can do the 0-80mph thing again. Still the Protege gets 27-28mpg and thats still going up. I dont drive the OB like that. If I did I would be lucky to be in the teens.
Really my commute is all highway and I commute off hours so there is little traffic. 25 miles highway and 2 miles back road. No stopping and starting and no sitting in traffic. Its really the most highway one can get in real-world commuting. So when I cant get what the ratings say it makes me cranky. The 89 Taurus I traded in with 157k was still getting 27mpg on the same ride. Right now we are only getting about 22mpg in the OB so it really needs to get checked out. Thats pretty bad. We are moving on the third dealer to resolve some of the issues that remain annoying.
The 626 does slightly worse, averaging about 22 or 23 mpg. It doesn't match the Forester in city or highway, really. While it is a V6, the Soob actually has 1 hp and 4 ft-lbs of torque advantage (165/162 vs. 164/160).
The 626 has more passenger room, but the Forester can haul about 4 times as much cargo as the sedan. The 626 is a bit quicker, but the short gearing that makes it quick also makes it consume more fuel.
If you compare AWD competitors, the Subies start to look better and better.
-juice
Still... it beats any SUV.
Ron
Should I call SoA again and discuss this as an option. The pinging drives me so crazy that I let my husband drive it to work daily and I drive his old honda civic.
Thanks
Sharon
My Bridgestone Potenza's have worn down to the wear markers in only 15,000 miles and 15 months. Has anyone else experienced tire life so short?
Steve
I find the gear ratios evenly spread. First is low enough to tow 1500 lbs or get me around on the beach sand, while 5th puts the revs nice and low, for quiet and efficiency.
What I'd like to see is a 6 speed, then you could get the lower 1st and taller 6th without having the ratios spread too far apart.
Speak of the devil, here is Edmunds' preview of the next 626:
http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/preview/articles/47610/article.html
Looks good. The wagon is gorgeous, and may put additional pressure on Subaru. Even though AWD is not offered, Subaru used to pretty much have the wagon market to themselves.
219hp, 5 speed auto, side curtain air bags, ... this stuff is getting more and more common.
-juice