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Comments
David
Someone asked about the diffy protector install, my instructions for doing it on the Forester are here.
My guess is the rates will continue. Do they apply to the 2002 models too? I seriously doubt that if they exist now for the 2002 models that they would stop it at the end of the month.
-juice
-Dave
The customer with a car that is still under the warranty, in this case H4 andor H6 pinging cars:
1) Stop the ping using whatever hardware or software you have available. Just try...I would have more respect for the company even if you fail.
2) Give me a new car/engine that does not ping.
3) Doing nothing is not an option. You must stop the ping.
The company with customer complaint, in this case Subaru:
1) First claim that its normal. I got this already and did not buy it.
2) Then claim that its only restricted to a few cars. It may be but its still annoying.
3) Suggest fixes that dont cost the company money....run higher octance and the like.
4) Then claim it does not do any damage. Thats just a load of cr#p. Over time its bad and they know it.
5) Then it must be the gas station that you use or something that you did.......yea.
6) Then fix a few that are really bad or complain really loudly.
7) Quietly put the fix in production without fixing old ones.
8) Hope it goes away.
So far they are following the usual mantra: Admit nothing, deny everything, and if all else fails make counter accusations. Sound familiar? It usually works unless you are Firestone.
Thanks
Sharon
Once again, I'm sorry.
Patti
The way I see it: You goal is to keep MOST of your customers satisfied and the rest quiet.
Anything else is unrealistic for a for-profit company and I realize that. I'm sure most of your customers are happy. Thats really not my concern as I only care about my car.....whereas your outlook is more global.
If the ping problem becomes more widespread you (Subaru) will have to do something eventually. If it is limited to a few cars (like mine and the 2 other that I have seen personally) then its better for you to do nothing and admit nothing. I know that and its OK because I dont have unrealisitic expectations from Subaru. Thats generally how things work. If you really want to experience the bad end of then get a Toyota. Its also why I did not rush my wifes car in again and again for the ping problem. I went in once and then heard about others with similar issues with no solution. Other than the 30k stuff I dont plan on visiting the dealer until there is a solution. Really no point. Eventually if enough people complain Subaru will fix it. While it annoys the heck out of me, I'm not going to go crazy over it.
I look forward to hearing any comments.
I think this discussion has been pursued far enough. Individuals do have specific complaints that they have made to a manufacturer. The manufacturer has responded to those individuals.
The individuals concerned may, or may not, have legitimite complaint with the service they recieved. Unfortunately, however, we can only ever hear one side of the argument. Understandably, the complainant will make available only those aspects of the complaint which support their contention and will selectively use any response from the manufacturer to bolster their case. The manufacturer cannot respond fully without providing confidential information provided by the complainant which in turn may inflame the situation.
From the information provided, it is clear that the individual complaints have been investigated carefully and I suspect the complainant is assertive enough to ensure that if this is not the case, redress is achieved.
We all know people who have unrealistic expectations for their purchases. It is not feasible for any manufacturer to satisfy every purchaser. In the case of motor vehicles, some customers will use them in differnt ways, resulting in differing behaviour.
A little discretion may be in order. I think that Patti has responded as fully and politely as she reasonably can. Please do not cause further offence.
Cheers
Graham
For your convenience, you'll find a direct link to this new discussion in the Additional Resources on the left side of the page. Hope this is helpful.
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
Since buying my Outback, I have become even more impressed with Subaru. My test drive did not show me how sure-footed the Outback is in the rain. (I live in Florida and therefore cannot speak for its performance in winter weather). Since purchasing the Outback, I have learned that in nice weather, the most fun you'll have is highway exit ramps at highway speeds! (Thanks to some private performance driving training I have had... don't try it without knowing what you're doing! AWD and ABS are great things, but nothing replaces good driving!)
You might have read that I too have had a consistent problem since the car had about 1000 miles on it. While it is not as obvious as the ping issue discussed here, I have received as much personal attention from my dealer's Service Manager and the regional District Service Manager, as a customer might reasonably expect... whether by Subaru, or one of the high priced Japanese or German cars. In addition, just the other day, "Patti" who apparently is affiliated with Subaru and is our liaison to SoA, offered her assistance.
Even though the closest Subaru dealer is 45 minutes away, and I have made countless trips there with my issue, one of these days it will be resolved. Until then, I love every mile I put on my Outback. My sister's is a 96 with a 5 speed with approx 80K miles on it. She has never had any problems with it, and her dealer in the Boston area has always been fantastic.
Tell your wife to get a Subaru - she'll love it!Let us all know what model and color she selects!
-OB165
Graham: "I think that Patti has responded as fully and politely as she reasonably can". I would like it if she would confirm that some OBs are having the ping problem and that a solution x,y, and z are being investigated and that one or more will be available by a given date for any car that pings. OR state that there is no real problem and the cases we encounter here are isolated or the people are just spreading dirt. I'm not talking about an individual case here. I'm talking about in general. Its a frustrating feeling when you have a car that pings and "hear" a solution may be available only to find out that you cant get access to it.
Like rogerab, I found Patti's response off putting.
I also found the "back off" note insulting. "We all know people who have unrealistic expectations for their purchases." Come on: if Sharon was saying the seats weren't comfortable, I'd have no sympathy for her. But her $25K car's engine is beating itself, possibly to a premature death.
No modern car should ping more than occasionally. Period. If it is pinging, something is wrong. The dealer should be fix it. It doesn't matter what the computer is spitting out is within limits. If the vast majority of Subaru's don't ping, Sharon's shouldn't either.
There simply isn't any exuse. I'll be looking harder at other cars. I'll also be following the forum to see if Sharon gets satisfaction. If she doesn't, Subaru doesn't get my $25K.
And to those put off by this issue, you're welcome to do whatever you like. But life is always a bell curve, no matter what you are looking at. In this case some are never satisfied (may be for valid reasons!), some are always satisfied (and may be wearing rose-colored glasses) and the vast majority listen and consider statements and assertions carefully with respect to their origin and use the overall results to reach a decision. Use this forum, use the other forums, magazines, and reviews but most importantly use your own brain to make a decision.
I have owned multiple Subaru's over the years and never once have I seen the owners manual state a need to replace differential oil. Only Inspect at 30K intervals.
I also agree with Patti's response.
I also believe that those experiencing this ping issue are in the minority (meaning that probably 90% of the rest of the Sube's are FINE). No, I don't have any data to back that claim up, but I do know maybe a handful or so have actually claimed it happened on these boards.
To those with the ping issue, just take it to your dealer and try to get it resolved. If they don't offer satisfaction, then call the 800 number. Perhaps try another dealers' service. At least you'll have your complaint in writing and on record with Subaru. If a fix were to come down, then you'd be the first's to get it.
To those now on the fence because they're afraid they'll get a ping mobile, don't worry about it. Take a test drive - a long one - to get comfortable with the Sube. And if you like the ride, just get it. You won't be disappointed.
-Brian
Have a great weekend everyone!!!
Does everyone with the 2000-2 5 speed occasionally have trouble getting into reverse and have to release the clutch in neutral first to get it to go in?
How about this one... Manual transmission - Driving on level ground at 20-30 mph constant speed (neither accelerating nor decelerating) the engine does a slight shutter (just like an automatic transmission shifting) happens rarely, but enough to notice. Of course, I CANNOT cause it to happen whenever I want to.
I do have to respond to a couple of things though.
Brian - I'm sure if you've been following posts for the past 6 months, you would know that I've been to the dealer 6 times and had the regional rep. see it twice. They have acknowledged that it pings and that they can duplicate the problem. But the standard line is 'since it's within normal limits there's nothing we can do' They've assured me it's not detrimental to the performance or value of the car'(and yet when I tried to trade it in at the same dealer, they refused to take it as a trade-in saying that since SoA had been involved and offered me money toward another purchase, the car must be defective).
At the advice of the attorney I consulted with, I took the car to an independent Japenese car specialist. He clearly heard the ping and disagreed with SoA. He said that any ping will cause additional stress to the engine and it's longevity.
My car has the other typical kinks that other Subarus have such as the break squeak, the roof rack noise, and the occasional cross wind noise at the windshield/drivers window. None of that concerns me to the point that I would pursue it. But an engine ping does, especially when I know that it's going to impair the longevity and resale of my car.
As for confidentiality - I don't think I've ever heard of a car dealer's hippocratic oath??? I can understand that Patti doesn't want to discuss individual cases, and I don't fault her for that. But free speech allows this forum to exist. I also have no confidentiality agreement with SoA or anyone else for that matter. And by the way - 'I love Mazda' - I am a licensed architect. If I performed poorly on a project, you can believe that contractors would be screaming it from rooftops and in the ears of clients. That's how it is. Someone performs poorly, then it's a customers right to complain.
What they should consider is the way SoA has handled the situation. If they have a simple fix that they've tried on two other cars and it has worked, then why not try it on mine?
My OB had the brake squeak about 1 month after we purchased it. Took it to the dealer and they cleaned up the pads. Hasn't happened since. And according to the other sube forums here, there is a shim kit in the works for some of the affected vehicles.
sharon: I did see your previous posts. You've done everything you should have. The complaint is in writing. If the engine craps out due to this ping issue somewhere down the line, you've got the upper hand.
SoA has offered to help you (as you indicated), so I'm not sure why you'd be mad at them. It sounds like your dealer is the one to be mad at for refusing the trade. If you haven't already, try another dealer in your area. It can't hurt to try!
Again, I'm not criticizing anyone for posting a ping problem here. Yes, you do have that right. I was just trying to bring some balance to this discussion - the fact that my OB doesn't ping.
-Brian
We had out first "cold" day in St. Louis (in the 30F range) and there was CONSIDERABLY less preignition, which went away after about 30sec, under low load and NO pinging at all.
Normally it would stop the preignition noise after driving about 2-5 miles or full warm up. In the "cold" it stopped much faster. Its the same tank of gas. The humidity is about the same. The only thing that seem to have changed is the temp. Its down about 25F over when the ping started.
I was also thinking it might also be easier for both new/old participants to find and track recurring problems in a more focused problem discussion. But whatever you think works best for you.... Good luck. ;-)
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
I feel that the car vibrates too much. The steering wheel doesn't vibrate to any abnormal degree and neither does the seat. It seems to be coming more from the floor. My feet and legs feel like they have been vibrating consistently on any ride we take no matter what the surface. I took the car to a tire shop with the newest balancing equipment and the two front tires were out of balance, but it didn't remove the vibration. In fact it didn't seem to change the vibration at all. Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Patti
1) There may (and probably are) factors that we don't know about sharon and SOAs discussions.
2) My personal feeling is that it could be a case of bad gas. Has sharon tried multiple different stations, different grades? perhaps it's watered down or crappy gas. I know my cousin has a 2000 OB H4, and her's will not run on Hess gasoline at all, it has all kinds of problems with Hess fuel.
-mike
-mike
The clue was sitting in the parking lot with the door open, all that was wrong with your Accord was a $40 main relay, I have owned 5 of them so I know what I am talking about.
Cheers Pat.
Considering the frequency of problems discussed here recently, I felt this subject warranted a discussion of it's own. The Subaru General Maintenance discussion you're referring to is certainly another option. However, since there are already 3300+ posts in that discussion, it may not serve as well as a new/separate discussion. Feel free to email me if you have any more questions/comments on this subject. Thanks.
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
Also, there were some posts several months back reguarding replacing factory speakers with aftermarket ones, and installing the subaru subwoofer/amplifier. If you have the a subwoofer/amp could you please comment as to its performance? Thanks
Doug
Have you done all that could be done?
Hey, an underinflated tire puts stress on an engine too. Sounds like BULL? I don't think so. When your ping occurs, were you driving against headwind, crosswind, etc...? Don't discount that.
Wait. I'm not gunning anybody down here. Just pointing out that SoA can only know as much as the ECU can provide. Y'all have to provide the variables.
If X grade gas + under inflated tires + headwind = ping and X grade gas + proper inflated tire + headwind still = ping, then log it and submit data. This example is definitely not the best, but I think y'all know what I'm suggesting.
-Dave
p/s Airing your concerns on this board if just fine. It is good that concerns are heard. But it won't fix by itself. Be pro-active, roll-up your sleeves and participate and be part of the resolution quest. Hey, it's to your benefit and others that share your concerns. :-)
If you are looking for boom boom base forget it, thats is not what it is about it, it is not cheap but it is designed to mount under the passenger seat so you lose no room to a separate amp and subwoofer enclosure especially if you have a wagon like I do,it is also has a wire harness which is designed for the car which makes the install very simple no cutting and splicing wires.
I installed Infinity cappa speakers front and rear with tweeters in front along with a JVC cassette CD combo that puts out 160 watts, for me it is about just a nice well rounded system, I know the kids who are into nothing but base would laugh at this little sub-amp unit but it suits me.
If you can give up a little space in the trunk you may want to take a look at Infinity,s bass link sub-amp, Crutchfield.com have some right now in their scratch and dent.
Cheers Pat.
I bought a new Toyota Camry LE V6 wagon in 1990. At about 20k miles I began hearing a road speed dependent, load dependent whine that I didn't like. It sounded to me like a final drive bearing singing. Multiple trips to the dealer yielded the usual 'turn up the radio' comments. In their opinion, it was just a noise that didn't effect functionality. It will last forever, they said. No long term detrimental damage..... (sound somewhat familiar?) Finally at 58k (nearing the end of the powertrain warranty) I wrote to Toyota customer service at the corporate offices in California to register my complaint and suspicions.
At 65k miles the whine became a whistle, at 67k it became a howl! At this point I had had enough and called for a meeting with the District Mgr. By now the dealer agreed the tranny was in trouble, but the D.M. refused the claim. He told me that their obligation stopped at 60k. If it was not labeled as a 'pending failure' while under warranty, there was nothing further to discuss. I appealed all the way to the assistant to the president (Hiroshi ????) in CA. Bottom line, if an 'out of warranty' issue didn't result in personal injury or vehicle loss, they would not override the district office. While they agreed that I was being scr---d and had well documented the case, they were very sorry, but would not violate a sacred corporate policy. Estimate from the dealer for a new tranny? About $4k....
I took the car to a private shop, paid $1100 for a full rebuild and 4 new bearings for the final drive assembly. One race was severely pitted, and roller bearings were intermittently welding themselves to it. Not a bad ear for a consumer......
Now I am not saying Subaru would treat this the same way. I believe times have changed, and even Toyota is paying a price for what many have documented as extreme arrogance. I am new to this board and Subaru, but recognize that we are lucky to have Patti acting as a listening post and liason between customer and factory. But companies sometimes have an odd way of digging in their heals over the strangest things. It get especially dicy once the warranty has run out. As an engineer, I can tell you that operating within spec doesn't always mean operating in an optimal manner. We often change the spec as we learn more about the long term implications of our initial assumptions. And being human, we are not always ready to stand up and admit it, or publicly announce it.
I too was fuming when this occurred to me. I told anyone who would listen, and swore that I would never own a Toyota again. With time, I have softened my stance. Logic over emotions. I know that even the best cars will have a failure rate, and that service programs are administered by humans following rules. And the rules need to be there because engineers and mechanics tend to make lousy business people!
So what is the bottom line after all of this rambling?
1) Sharon - stay focused and analytical. Document everything... We share your frustration. I for one want to hear how you are progressing.
2) Patti - thanks for being here. I hope to never need you, but I like the fact you are reachable. It sounds like SoA is, on the whole, far more customer satisfaction oriented than Toyota.
3) tkevin - Listen to the majority of the people here and buy the car. You will hear horror stories about every mfgr. Balance what you hear with some statistical significance about the number of satisfied customers vs. the problems reported.
Thanks, and please no hate mail......
Steve
Well said!
Another Steve
The bumper issue: I remember the discussion in the past of the bumper issue as to softness and the paint adherence. Well, some jerk decide to play a bump and park with the OB where my wife works. About a 1.5 inch scratch down to the black plastic/vinyl is exposed on the front of the car plus a couple of surface scratches. I tried the touch up paint but it is still noticeable. Any suggestions from the crew out there?
I'm sure the folks at Subaru are as frustrated as Sharon is with regards to that ping. Of course they want to find a fix, it just may be a bit elusive. I'd urge anyone that had a similar problem to share specific suggestions that may help us out. That's what these boards are for.
Patti has been around for a while and I've seen her help out in dozens of cases, almost always with a happy ending. It's not like they aren't trying, IMO. And people that have their problems resolved tend to disappear, while those with an outstanding issue tend to linger.
We have to keep something in mind. People often come to a board like this to complain about something, or to look for a fix to a problems they are having. I'm sure most are not regulars, like I am, here just for fun. So you tend to find a disproportionate number of problems.
Don't believe me? Check out the Volvo boards. The Escape/Tribute problems. Some VW boards. In a way, I'm glad we complain about small things like squeeky brakes, pinging, thin paint, and soft glass, and not things like engine fires and stranded drivers and passengers.
OK, Subarus are not perfect. Far from it. But are they better than average? I think that's fair to say, yes. If you hold out for the perfect car you will be walking to work.
Also, let's not pound on Patti, please. She volunteered to come here (sounds crazy now, no?). She actually had to push pretty hard for SoA to allow her to.
Anyone else here ever work in Customer Service? You live to basically listen to other people complain to you, sometimes in a hostile tone. It's a tough, tough job.
-juice
This is common to all manual transmissions I have ever owned. There is no sychro on reverse and occasionally the gears simply don't line up and won't mesh. In the bad old days when cars didn't have sychro on 1st gear it would happen there too. I believe reverse gears are cut different to the forward gears which I think is also why they tend to whine in reverse.
For the record, our 00 OB has 20,000 km on it and does not ping, uses regular 87 gas (almost always the big name brands), the brakes don't squeal in reverse, there's no shimmy or vibration, the paint hasn't chipped except on the plastic door sill, the windshield hasn't cracked, there is virtually no wind noise at speeds up to 120 km/hr, etc, etc, you get the picture.
The only problems have been the engine check light (which now seems to have been fixed by an ECU recall), the cosmetic one of the raised lettering on the Firestone Wilderness tires cracking and revealing white rubber under the black, and a clutch smell twice when more than usual slippage was required to manouver up hill with a full load and a tent trailer attached.
In short we are satisfied customers. Which is good as we expect to keep the car a long time.
I'm still there somewhat in my line of work.
As to "hostile tone", oh I've got my earful.
But then, I usually have the upper hand. I got their money. ;-\
Hey, CS people are human beings too. Treat us CS as you would want others to treat you. Quit approaching us with arrogance, hostility or the likes, like it is your birthright to be served. Do that and in return... you'll be served no doubt.
Treat me justly and I'll respect your previledge... you'll get service.
My 2sen
-Dave
Greg
Patti - thanks for being here.
-juice
Almost all Cessna, Piper, Beech, etc. piston-driven aircraft use either Lycoming or Continental H-4's or H-6's. They are typically fairly high displacement for relatively low horsepower, but have low-RPM power bands. I.e. a Lycoming O-540 (540 cu. in.) will produce about 235-260 HP at about 2500 RPM at sea-level, weigh about 370lbs and holds 8-12 quarts of oil in the crankcase.
Popular conversion kits have been to put turbo-charged, fuel-injected Porsche boxer engines with reduction drives (most props spin optimally at 2000-2600 RPM) in some aircraft. Thus it was only natural that the Sube 2.0L would make its way into the kit plane business. The engine in the WRX should be popular.
Dry tech note: Throttle-body injection for Subaru engine in aircraft
More interesting, click here and then click on the "Engine System" link in the left-side frame.
A Soob Aircraft engine link site
HTH,
Theo in Colorado
When I got home I called Subaruparts.com (they are in Tacoma) and asked them what they would charge for that part if I walked in and purchased it at the parts counter. She said $39.95. Pretty fair markup above retail wouldn't you say?
On my first visit they overfilled my engine by 1.5qts and now this.
So now I am looking for a place to have my Sube serviced, even if I have to go to the Portland area. Anyone got any positive experiences to relate. I would prefer to find a really good independent garage that services Subaru only.
I have 10,500miles on lthe Bean now and except for the squeaky brakes have had absoultely no problem. We love this car. I know the brake fix is available and actually made an appointment to get it installed but something came up and I had to cancel. Now I am reluctant to take it to Bud Clary even to get that done. I believe the problem is that Bud Clary is a fairly large GM dealer and the Subaru dealership is a [non-permissible content removed] child (not even located on the same site) treated as an afterthought. Anyway as long as I stayed on the Subaru side of the street I was pretty satisfied but now when I try to get anything done i feel like a poor relative.
We were really happy with our Honda Accord wagon for 9 years and 156k and I had made up my mind when it went I was going to get an Acura TL. My wife wanted a wagon and since it would be her car anyway I gave in and got the BEAN. Now I wouldn't trade it for a TL. Guess that's about as good a testimony as I can give.
Guy
I'm one of the people who's had a problem with pinging on my 00 Outback. I feel pretty good about the way SoA responded to my case. It took a long time to find a solution, but I think the new ECU with the revised program is working. What you have to remember is you're dealing with a big corporation and the lines of communication are not always going to be clear. I had a little problem originally getting timely responses from SoA Customer Service, but once Patti got involved the process moved along quickly. I really didn't deal with SoA Customer Service much after the orignal case was started. I dealt with the SoA regional district service manager and his Customer/Dealer Services coordinator in Denver for most of the time. I did have to prompt them a few times, but they didn't ignore me and I now have a revised ECU. I think the key here is patience and persistance.
-Eric
For service, I've had pretty good luck with Wentworth Subaru in Portland. Parts prices are MSRP and they don't respond to email inquiries. Gresham Subaru will match Thomason Subaru's Subaru-Parts prices for parts. I've had bad luck with Carr Subaru's service.
-Eric
Upon my return, the boss informed that her 2K Wagon (which we've had since March 2000) had sprung a roof leak after driving around and sitting out in a 2-day deluge (it's always lived outside). She actually saw real-time dripping from the roof liner (fortunately, so did the dealer - in fact, there was another woman there with a leaking 2001 OB Ltd Wagon) - just fore and just aft of the cargo compartment roof light. Keep in mind here that Seattle's been in a "drought" almost the entire time we've owned the car, and it's probably never been so soaked before (I realize it has probably always had a leak, but until now sufficient water didn't get in to make it through the roof liner). It goes to the dealer for the repair(?) tomorrow - whatever that would be (it is a Ltd w/sunroofs). Comments anyone?
At the same time (as part of my on-going punishment), she reported that the rear wiper motor began making big-time noises after about five minutes of continuous running (I guess it really WAS raining). Dealer (Carter Subaru, Seattle, where we bought it) suggested that this was not a warranty item (or, as Bubba would say, it depends upon what "this" means) and implied that had we had the 15K maintenance done there (I didn't), it wouldn't have occured - as thought they would have lubricated something, perhaps? Anyone heard of scheduled maintenance for wiper motors (and, no, it's not the blade)? I popped the cap that revealed the shaft, and put a dollup of oil on it this morning and will attempt to duplicate the noise tonight (envision me standing in my dark, rainy driveway with a cold beer - watching the rear wiper go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth...).
I'll let you know how it all turns out.
No pings, no squeals, no shimmy, no Mariners (darn!).
Cheers from the PNW!
Ken M., Seattle