Subaru Outback VDC

pnwskier

The H6 really makes a difference when going up the mountain to ski. It flys by the H4s. The extra power really makes a difference when having to pull out and pass someone going under the limit on a two lane. (Or even when passing someone going over the limit...)

Alan

ateixeira

I tested a Bean, actually, but it was still very hushed, relaxed.

-juice

medevicerep

Thanks for all of your comments. I decided to by the 6. I got just over invoice on an LL Bean version. They were probably trying to push me that anyway, since they would barely discount the 4.

I figure I need the 6 since I will be hauling heavy loads often in the mountains of PA.

robo911

Just wondering if anyone knows when the 2003 model will be out and if it will have a six CD changer.
Please let me know.
Thanks.

robert116

On our fifth (and last?) Outback Wagon, never should have sold our '98 solid lifter, dohc 2.5 a work of art.

Is anyone else experiencing a loss of engine coolant with the H6?. We lose the entire tanks worth in about 2k miles and have been showing glycol in the last two oil samples tested. First the amount was 'detectable' the last two have been 100ppm, yes I know that is a small amount, but there are only a few possible pathways and all are indicative of major problems.

mikenk

Robert,
I have had slow coolant loss since I bought the VDC. It now has 15k miles; I have had the overflow tank drop from full to add three times. It only takes about a cup of coolant to fill it, but it has been the only nagging problem I have had.

The dealer has checked for leaks a couple of times, but they have not checked for coolant in the oil. Did the dealer do this check?

I have seen a few similar concerns, but I have never found any guidelines on this. I have hoped that Patti would comment; it is definitely a nagging concern.

mike

rsholland

should be out sometime this month, I'm already seeing ads for them in magazines.

Bob

robert116

Mike, tnks for reply.
The dealer did not do the analysis, we did after the first complete tank loss-I suspected either a cracked block,head or head gasket problems. Of course the dealer didn't find any problems when we brought it in the first time and of course I was the only one with such a probem. Funny, but I was also the only one with the front end noise, clunking during a slow right turn while over road irregularities, with our last wagon..

Last week the car was in the shop for about seven days and they changed the oil cooler. Reason given was that both an oil line fitting and coolant fitting were leaking, conclusion; coolant getting in oil here. My problem with this is that the oil is under far more pressure than the coolant so fluid migration would be impossible. AND even if this were the pathway, it would not be a one way street, there would have to be some oil in the coolant which there is not.
However I am not an automobile mechanic and all agreed to try this for two weeks.

I hope that there is an explanation for the loss other than my suspicions. But until each of us gets their own issue resolved I believe it would be in our best interests to remain in contact with one another via e-mail, and perhaps to ask other owners about this issue.

After all, Subaru gets nearly 30,000 USD for this vehicle.........

Should anyone else be interested in finding out if they have coolant in the oil this lab is very good, about $18.00 per sample done via their postage prepaid containers. Of course you do need a pump and hose which they provide at a very reasonable cost.
Lubriport Laboratories Inc. (Kenner LA)
1.504.4641734

I can be reached at:
RobertSmith320@hotmail.com

ateixeira

Yes, Subaru is adding a 6CD changer to the VDC, at least I was told so at the NY Auto Show.

-juice

dane4

Hello all!

I'm a visitor here from the Infiniti G35 boards, but I have a friend here at the office with a Subaru outback AWD.

Recently, she had a tire go flat on her in town and she drove it (almost flat) to a service station where they plugged the nail hole.

Because she drove on it in the almost flat condition, it looks like there is damage to the sidewall.

She took it to a firestone dealer and they told her that she would have to replace all 4 tires! because hers had 15k miles on them and putting one new tire on would be too much of a diameter change for the AWD.

I've had no experience with AWD cars though I have had LSD RWD cars and it was said never to let the diameters of the left and right rear vary too much as it would burn up the LSD, but all 4 tires for the AWD?!

Does this sound like sound advice? or is the guy trying to rip her off?

Thanks in Advance

Faenor/Dane4 (from the Infiniti G35 Board)

originalbitman

Subaru recommends no great than a 1/4 inch difference in circumferance between tires. That's not much so I would suspect (but wouldn't guarantee) that a new tire would be out of spec with the other 3.

bit

ateixeira

15k miles is probably a borderline case. Depends on the wear. If they are highway miles, a new tire might be OK, but they should measure.

She could try to find one used tire. I know there are places in DC that sell them. Or have her go to i-Club.com and post a WTB (want to buy) ad, since many owners upgrade tires before they wear out.

Good luck to her.

-juice

hypov

measure the circumference of the remaining three tires (average it out) then look for an independent tire shop; they usually would have used/take-offs that you could buy, and find a tire within the 1/4" spec.

Good Luck

-Dave

ateixeira

Saw an ad on TV last night for a used tire shop, I think it was called Universal, something like that. Try a web search.

-juice

ucajlc

Ateixeira - What is the scoop on the H6 coolant loss problem. I have a 2001 Outback VDC and it looses about an inch per week from the coolant overflow tank. There are others on this board with various degrees of the same problem. I have asked the dealer to check for a coolant leak 2 times and they say they can find nothing. I love this car but having to top off the coolant tank every week is getting old. Importantly, it used to only lose about an inch per month so it seems to be getting worse. The factory must know something about this which could help the dealer fix the problem. Help please.

Jim

smango

i have been debating what wagon to buy. Ideally I wanted something i) reliable, ii) fun , iii) quiet, iv) reasonably powerful, v) cost within the $20K's, vi) big enough to throw my bike into or indulge in a massive trip to costco.... After much looking i realized this dream car doesn't exist, so i just put $500 down on a 2001 VDC with 3000 miles on it for $25,334 (factory demo). The price was from edmunds and actually came in about $1600 below their estimate, but the dealer agreed so quickly that i wonder if i should have bargained more! In any event, now i'm wondering if i made the right decision! The other choices were: i) some kind of VW. But the reliability was quite an issue - judging from this townhall, consumer reports and my own mechanic. ii) a used saab 9-5. I liked it but wondered about repairs even though it's rated well on CR and there's a good repair shop in town. iii) volvo has the same problems with repairs and it was much noisier than i expected. a surprise. iv) i also tried a wrx and lexus is300, which were both great fun to drive, but not really enough cargo space and more car than i need. Also the rearwheel drive of the lexus was a problem since i live in utah with occasional snow and constant mountains v) audi. i never drove one but assumed it was like a small vw (a4) or an expensive vw that i couldn't afford. vi) a used bmw or mercedes. Same problems as above - expensive to buy and maintain. i was surprised that the high end cars don't have better reliability. my last car was a lexus es250, which had virtually no problems in 12 years until someone totaled the car 2 months ago. i loved it but wanted a little more power and a little more cargo room in a wagon format.... So, in desperation i chose the vdc. The vdc has reliability (i hope!) and is very quiet, which i like. There is power, so i can get up a hill with the air conditioning on, even if it's loaded down i hope! It's just not 'fun driving' like some of those other cars. A reliable sport wagon would have been perfect. sigh. But for the price, it seems like a good choice. I pick it up in a few days - after my mechanic checks it out for all the problems mentioned on this site!! So the million dollar question is did I make the right choice or miss something wonderful? Should i back out while i can???

mikenk

Obviously, asking your question on this board is going to give you some biased answers, but I will give you my thoughts. From all histories, the VDC should be more reliable than the other competing mid-size wagons. Having lived through a volvo 850 wagon experience, that is important to me.

Personally, I don't believe that any of the mid size wagons would be classified as fun to drive, although I have been quite pleased with the OB's handling and power. However, the VDC is a great traveling car: very quiet, smooth power, very compliant ride over all surfaces, very safe in all weather conditions, and a really great stereo system. It's also has a personality.

Keep it
Mike

mikenk

How many miles do you drive in a week to get an inch drop in coolant? Are you adding water back or coolant?

Mine can actually go for weeks with no loss and then will lose some. The theory from my dealer (who I trust is being honest)is that it is probably air pockets being cleared out of the system. That certainly can't explain your level of loss.

Patti: Any comments on this? It appears to be rare but is obviously a concern to those of us with the problem. The service departments only do external leak checks; surely there are better diagnostic tools than that.

Mike

paisan

I dunno Hypov RACES his 99 Outback with an H4 engine. I can only imagine racing an H6 VDC would totally rock! So fun to drive is definitely there.

-mike

ateixeira

Jim: I'm wondering if it's normal. In other words, as the temps rise, fluid flows to the overflow tank, and spills out (the overflow valve). Then when it cools, the level is lower because coolant returns to the radiator.

Does it keep getting lower, I mean until the reservoir is empty? If not, it's probably just a normal cycle.

smango: $25 grand for a VDC? Are you kidding me? That's a steal, I would have bought it myself!

What else has all that space plus heated leather, traction and stability control, a cool stereo, 2 moonroofs, and 16" alloys? $40 grand imports, that's what.

-juice

popgun

has sure been a great wagon for us in the mountains of northern California Susan. I have had so much satisfaction that it's hard to recall any problems. You sure got a good price on yours.
You will appreciate the things the VDC has to offer as you drive it thru the seasons in Utah. Enjoy your good fortune and forget any buyers remorse you may have at the moment. You did good!

mikenk

Juice,

Concerning the coolant loss, I can't believe that it is a normal cycle. I have, in effect, completely refilled the overflow tank three times. I always check only in the morning when the car is cool. It is a closed system; it would seem like it would reach a normal equilibrium like all my other cars have always done.

I follow most of the Subaru discussions; I think there seem to be only 4 or 5 of us with this problem, so it is not a widespread issue. However, it is frustrating since there does not seem to be a good explanation, the dealers only do the standard leak tests, and it appears that SOA does not perceive a problem.

I love this car, would buy it again, but I will remain concerned until I understand what is happening. The engine cooling system is a rather important part of the engine to be concerned about.

Mike

smango

thanks for the votes of confidence! Yes, i am happy about the vdc. i pick up the car today and am excited to drive it for real. I guess i got ruffled by the parents saying "VDC? what's that? Sounds overpriced for a subaru. You should buy a passat, a volvo, a this, a that..."

A question for you guys: does the antilock brake system kick in during normal driving? I could feel the brakes pulsing during the test drive and wondered whether it was warped rotors (at 3000 miles that seemed surprising) or the antilock brakes going down hill (also surprising since it wasn't slippery). i'll have the mechanic check it out, but thought i'd ask here too. susan.

originalbitman

Did you run a CarFax report on the VDC to see if and or who it was registered to for those first 3000 miles? Might be worth it. Could be a dealer demo or they might be fibbing.

bit

smango

yes, i did and didn't find anything. The dealer (nate wade, salt lake city) has a good reputation for being fair and honest. i also showed the car to an outside mechanic who thought it looked good and drove it a few blocks to make sure. Not a long check, but he seemed to think it was in good shape. Mentioned the brakes and coolant leaks to him, but he didn't see anything.

I also asked for two years of extra bumper to bumper warranty, which they gave me. Just drove it off the lot and was smiling from ear to ear. So, I guess i've joined the subaru ranks!

ucajlc

Like Mikenk, I always check the coolant before driving in the morning when it is cool and top it off to bring it back up to the cold full mark. I use a 50/50% mix of antifreeze and water. At first, I just thought it was air in the system purging itself but after 6 months of filling it up again and again, I realized something was wrong. The dealer has checked it with their standard pressure test and everything checks OK. Since this is a new engine for Subaru, it makes sense to question whether water pump clearances are too loose, there is some porosity in the crankcase aluminum, etc. That is why I am asking ateixeira for help. If 5 people on this board have the problem, then the chances are very high that quite a few more also have the problem. That only the owners of coolant challenged H-6's read this board seems remote.

Ateixeira, please check with the factory about this and let us know what the scoop is.

Thank you,
Jim

originalbitman

Congratulations! And welcome.

bit

hypov

I will attest to it that it is fun to drive. Especially through the twists and turns.
I'll admit that my OB isn't a speed demon, but for what it is it has the handling capability to conjure up plenty of thrills.
Wish someone would bring out the H6 VDC to the AutoX so I could have a fun run with it.

-Dave

mfsb

I have a H6 with 1600 miles. I checked the level of the coolant and it is almost down to the low level mark. Does anyone know if they come new topped off to the full mark? Bill

robert116

I really take no pleasure in reading of the others who have the same problem with the new H6 engine; that being a very slow loss of coolant with no apparent signs of where the stuff may be going.

Unfortunately for me, some is going into the engine oil and (I hope I am wrong) very probably into the engine oil of everyone else who is reporting this problem.

This is the ideal 'Lemon Law' problem in that it is a very major manufacturing or design -or both - defect which would significantly affect the value or reliablility of the vehicle.

Perhaps this issue should have its own board?

paisan

Hopefully I'll be racing his OB in auto-x this coming weekend. We'll be sure to post what cars I beat with a Slushbox-wagon!

-mike

paisan

My guess is that they'll replace the engine for you in which case it couldn't fall under the lemon law.

-mike

hypov

mike definitely will beat me in my own car

-Dave

paisan

Well at least you'll know how much faster you can get! And I'm sure there are people out there who could wring a bit more out of it than I will be able to.

-mike

snowbelter

I, too, own an 02 VDC and have reported coolant loss on this forum. About one pint of coolant has vanished since February (7500 miles). This also happened with my wife's 00 OB. Both cars have been pressure tested by the dealer who has told me "this is common".."air pockets cause this" " the level fluctuates day to day". So far this is an annoyance to me. Once the level goes down, it does not fluctuate back up. So today, when I take my car in for its 7500 mile check up I'll again mention this so at least there will be record. I have nothing but superlatives for the car otherwise.

mikenk

Snowbelter:
Your symptoms sound more like mine. My loss is not consistent. I can go 1500 miles with no loss, and then lose an inch in a week, but it never fluctuates up; only down. My uneducated logic is:

- Could be slowly working out initial air pockets, but at 15k miles, these should have been gone by now. New air pockets would not be only one way.

- Could be evaporation. That would only seem logical if there were differences on the air tightness between the overflow containers. Very few seem to have the problem, so evaporation does not seem logical.

- Could be external leaks. Car has been pressure tested twice with no problem.

- Could be internal leaks. Scary thought, but in my case, it is sporadic. An internal leak would seem to be more consistent. However, it does seem that my leakage happens at times of extended highway travel, which could be a clue to a knowledgeable SOA mechanic.

It seems that the frustrating point is that dealers (leak checking only) and SOA (by silence) seem to indicate that it is not a problem. I want to believe that but only through some logical explanation.

Mike

subearu

is the radiator itself showing lower coolant, or is it just the coolant overfill bottle?

stupid questions (?) - can coolant be drawn from the coolant overfill bottle at highway speeds? or, does highway speeds cause an overflow condition that would cause the bottle to overflow?

-Brian

mikenk

Brian,
Good question on the radiator level. I have never tested that for consistency of both levels. I will start doing that every time I check.

I always test first thing in the morning so the radiator and overflow have stabilized.

Mike

ucajlc

I assume ateixeira's silence on the subject means she is checking with the factory. I have about 33K miles on a 2001 VDC. I love the car but the coolant loss is bothersome. That my coolant loss has seemed to increase with mileage is the main worry I have. Other than this, the car is terrific. It would be nice to fix it so I can stop having to check the coolant every week and top it off weekly.

I am taking it into the dealer tomorrow for the third try at finding the problem. It would be nice if the factory would at least put out a service bulletin to stop wasting dealer and Subie owner time trying to find the cause.

I will let everyone know what happens.

Jim

paisan

He is AJ aka Juice. He doesn't work for SOA. You must be thinking of Patti who does work for SOA but doesn't always check in here.

There have been maybe 4 or 5 people on here that posted, I doubt that SOA would put out a bulliten for 5 people. I'd have the dealer test your oil for coolant in it that would elminate the worst case scenario.

-mike

popgun

Welcome to the Subaru ranks. Hope you will enjoy your VDC as much as I have mine.

CA Doug

robert116

Mike, would it be too much to ask that the 'Subaru Team' at least respond to the issue of coolant loss?

Yes, the number of people reporting the problem is small, but this is a very small forum and the group of H6 owners is smaller still.

This indicates that the problem is very widespread-relative to the involved population- and very serious, proven by the fact that Subaru is NOT offering to have oil samples tested for glycol.

Typical behavior in this situation is for the company to deny the problem just until it becomes a news item, or until a class action is threatened, which may become necessary..

subearu

You may want to post in the Subaru Crew Owner's Club topics (maybe Meet the Members?) for better visability to Patti (Subaru Team) to see your posts.

-Brian

hypov

Better yet, call 1-800-SUBARU-3 and start a case.
Y'all have been encouraged to do so.
No case, no data for research for SoA.

-Dave

subearu

ateixeira

She? I'm male, thanks, though they do say Forester owners are lesbians. Maybe I haven't overcome that stereotype yet. ;-)

Patti is the female you are thinking of, and she just got back from vacation recently, so give her a chance to catch up.

My suggestion? Park on an incline, up hill, or use ramps, and let it idle for a while. That should help "burp" it, get the air pockets out, and bring them towards the front of the radiator, where it'll get vented out via the overflow tank. Just a suggestion.

I would definitely be checking the level inside the radiator itself, though only on a cool engine. The overflow tank is totally secondary. Also keep an eye on the temp guage.

I do agree with Dave - call 800-SUBARU3 and open a case number. Then e-mail Patti at pmickel@subaru.com to see what help SoA can offer to your dealer.

If you aren't satisfied with what Subaru can do, visit the NHTSA web site and register your problem in their database.

I do not work for Subaru, nor does Edmunds pay me to be one of the Community Leaders for the Subaru Crew. But I take donations. (just kidding)

-juice

robert116

Juice, tnks for the suggestion, I have presumed that since the car is going in for the third time this Wednesday that there is already a case number for our problem, but I'll call just to be certain.

People, it isn't an air problem, it isn't evaporation and it isn't some 'normal'fluctuation of the liquid level.
If you are not leaking the coolant out you are leaking the coolant in, and this is a very bad thing.

As for us, we have the glycol contaimination documented since the first test was done months ago and we are in very good shape to force Subaru to do the right thing - can you say the same?

By the way, a glycol only test is $12.00 from
Lubriport Labs
Kenner, La
1.504.464.1734

paisan

They won't start a case just because you brought it to the dealer. It's not the same as calling SOA directly. What has the dealer said about the results of the test?

-mike

robert116

Mike / Juice:
I didn't know that a service history was not enough to start a case number, appreciate the info.
With us its been pretty much a typical dealer story but annoying as we have had proof of glycol contamination since the very first service call.
First trip, pressure test, visual inspection, topped off the tank and on our way-all this despite a lab report saying that glycol has been detected in the engine oil
Second trip, now with a lab report stating 100ppm glycol present in the engine lube, the service tech spots a few leaky oil and coolant fittings in the oil cooler that were not noticed at the first trip and they decide that this has to be the pathway. I point out that it would kinda/sorta neat to have fluid migration from a lower pressure to a higher pressure environment. They say it can happen, what can I do? Car in the shop for five working days.
Four weeks, and a thousand miles later and the level is dropping; boy am I surprised - the lab calls and, yup, 100ppm still present in the dealer installed oil.
Trip number three this Wednesday.

Even I am curious as to what they will 'find' this time around that they haven't seen on the first two trips.

At least the end is in sight, as this week I am certain that we will be writing the letter to the dealer which our lemon law requires, then they will have only one more chance.

paisan

I'll bet SOA doesn't even know about the problem at all on your car. The dealer has probably been skirting around it.

No offense but lemon law letters will not get you anywhere. It's much much easier to negotiate a fix by working with SOA and your dealer than writing a lemon law letter. It's pretty hard to collect under the lemon law at least in most states.

-mike