Subaru Outback VDC

ateixeira

I think Robert may have a more serious problem than some of the other folks, given the amount of fluid lost and the presence of glycol in the engine oil.

I agree with paisan, though, SoA does not automatically get involved. In fact, I bet the dealer doesn't even want that to happen, 'cause it puts more pressure on them.

I bet some of the seals and/or gaskets are bad.

I have the Phase I 2.5l engine, and for the record the coolant level has never dropped. I've flushed the system once, and have 47k miles right now.

-juice

robert116

Juice, the four 2.5's we owned were flawless, never used a molecule of engine oil or coolant.
My favorite was the dohc, solid lifter, a work of art, stupid me had to come down with a case of piston envy.

kens

Most definetly log your issue with SOA. Not only will you benefit from their following up on your case, but you also provide them with precious data to help other owners as well.

Let them know. Have patience and they'll make things right. That's always been my experience.

Ken

hypov

I second, third, fourth the motion.
Report it to SoA. It's to the benefit of those whom (unknown to us here) maybe experiencing what your car has.
And submit to them those test result you have.

-Dave

jraba

I just got the following quote for an 03 VDC with standard equipment:

$30,718 (according to the dealer list price is $32,920). Any options would be added at invoice price.

I haven't seen the actual invoice price of the VDC, but he did give me the prices on the options I am considering.

Popular Equipment Group(cargo bin, rubber floor mats)- $100.00.

Rough Road Group(hood deflector, rear diff protector, and rear window dust deflector) - $147.00

Cargo Area Convenience Group (net and cargo area spot light) - $65.00

Auto-dimming mirror/Compass installed - $119.00

What do you think?

- John

ateixeira

That sounds a bit high, at least for the DC area. I've seen prices mostly below $30k, and in some cases around $29k.

Try fitzmall.com, and then ask them if they'll match the price.

-juice

kens

John,

Have you tried pricing the car out using Edmund's TMV calculator? I've found it to be pretty accurate for my area.

Ken

dcab

Check out Van Bortel's website (www.vanbortelsubaru.com). They're pricing '03's at $29543 plus freight. They do mark up options 30% though. I had no problem getting a local dealer to beat Van Bortel's price when buying an '03 Forester last month. But I do live close enough to Van Bortel that the dealer knew that I could easily buy from them. BTW, Edmund's TMV is way too high for the '03 Forester, at least in upstate NY.

jraba

Daryl, Juice, Ken:
Thanks for the input. Edmunds did not have the 2003 OB prices last time I checked.
- John

llbean30

Hi all, just read the post from dane 4 about having to replace 1 tire, and asking if need to replace all of them.The following has been my expearience. I bought a new 2001 ll bean last year.From the beginning the firestones were vibrating(shimmying) at 65-70mph.Had them rotated twice and balanced three times.(twice subaru dealers & once firestone dealer).After all that they still vibrate at65-70mph when two of the worst ones are on the front.The firestone dealer and the subaru dealer finally determined that two tires were out of round.The subaru dealer told me it was not his problem(take it to firestone.)I called subaru c/s at less than 1000 miles and three times since then.They told me if the tires proved bad they would stand behind them. when they actually proved bad(about 8000 miles), They told me it was firestones problem. I finally convinced firestone to replace two tires, after a long time of waiting they told me to come in for replacement.I had called subaru and was told by the rep on the phone to have firestone measure the circumference of the remaining tires to make sure they were within 1/4 inch of the new ones,or drivetrain damage could occur.and to get written documentation of such measurements.When I took the car to firestone for the replacement they impolitely and rudely told me that they had no way to measure the tires and either replace them or good buy.I called back to subaru and got a rep named samir on the phone and after going round and round with him (I asked him to arrange for a subaru dealer to make the switch and proper measurements , since I needed a discolored wheel replaced under warranty anyway).Samir told me just replace them anyway and don't worry about measurements, and if the trans goes south subaru would replace it under warranty anyway(if in the time and milege constraints).I didn't want that non solution(possible aggravation), and fought him on that idea,finally he said he would work on it and get back to me (that was in april).I'm still driving on the shimmying tires and still have the discolored wheel.Needless to say I really don't expect to hear from either firestone or subaru, after all I 'm only one dissatisfied customer.But I will definitly never buy another subaru or firestone product and I'll tell my story to anybody who will listen.---Other problems I have had include ,SQUEAKY BRAKES, OCCASIONALL CHECK ENG LGHT,RATTLE IN CENTER DASHBOARD,VIBRATION WHILE BRAKING,HARD STARTS ON SOME VERY COLD MORNINGS,GREASE COMING UP ON DRIVER SIDE WINDOW ON VERY HOT DAYS WHEN ROLLING WINDOW DOWN AND THEN UP AGAIN(LIKE AT TOLLBOOTHS). SLIGHT TEAR ON SURFACE OF REAR SEAT CENTER ARMREST FROM NEW.IMPERFECTION ON FINISH OF WHEEL FROM NEW.
Sorry for the long post
LUCK TO ALL---JACK

paisan

I know samir well. He's a good guy. Next time I have dinner with him I'll mention it.

-mike

PS: He started in April IIRC @ SOA.

hypov

ya, I too recall he just started in April.
Dennis (bluesubie) might know better.

-Dave

sb69coupe

Sorry to jump in late here, but I;ve got a comment on the coolant loss issue Robert is seeing. When the engine is turned off, the oil pressure immediately drops back to zero, but the cooling system remains pressurized. This could explain the migration of the coolant into the oil.

Just a W.A.G. - Shannon

robert116

sb69coupe, its not just me, though I wish it were, at last count I believe 5-6 members are reporting the same problem. AND I'm certain that it is virtually 100% of all- first year?- H6 owners who have a defective engine, hope I am wrong on this.
Your thinking is the same as the dealer from which we purchased the vehicle, they replaced a cooler with had both leaking coolant and oil fittings.
While I agreeded that the water side would remain pressurized (for a relatively short while) after the oil side is back to atmospheric , I suggested that if this were the pathway there would have to be oil in the coolant which there is not-it couldn't possibly be a one way street. Furthermore, the water side would have to remain at high pressure for a very long time, while the lube side was not under normal mechanical pressurization, if it were pushing coolant through a pin hole / small crack in the block or heads, or through a porous portion of the casting; which I am convinced is the situation. Additionally the differential in fluid density makes this thought process even more problematic, in my opinion of course.
Unfortunately I was correct, at 1000 miles after the fix another, the third, oil sample was tested for coolant and, the level is the same as it always has been.
The $30,000 VDC has been back at the dealers since Wednesday, I believe it is now 8 business days in shop and no progress has been made.
What is alarming is that Subaru, through the dealer, implied that there may be a minimum 'acceptable' level of glycol in the oil of H6 engines.
Lemonrider, how familiar is this starting to sound????

otis123

robert116,

After reading your posts last week I checked my 2001 LLBean Friday afternoon before driving home from work and several times over the weekend. All were cold engines. The level was the same each time - halfway between FULL and ADD. That's after 26,200 miles...

I did smell coolant once during those 26,200+ miles - this past May when I was stuck in traffic on I95 in CT for 2 hours with the AC on. I considered that a normal coolant expansion overflow - exactly what the tank is there for.

So, no problem here. Sorry to say, I've had flawless performance so far (except for the replacement of front rotors/pads - covered by Subaru).

Good luck with your problem.

Ralph

originalbitman

Robert - Are you saying that a 100% of all first year H6 engines are defective - OR - that 100% of deffective engines are from the first year?

bit

otis123

Has to be the later. My car is fine and it is a first year H6 engine...

schiza

Thinking about buying a VDC wagon for my wife. Are dealers dealing any lower than the current TMV listed in Edmund's? Also will there be any differences on the 2003 model? I own a WRX and am very satisfied with Subaru in general.

Thanks

WMarton

Add my name to the list of people concerned with coolant loss in the H6 (2001 VDC). Checked yesterday and the coolant level is definitely low. The car will get serviced on Friday and I will report back then, although I may simply have Fitzgerald top off the level this time and monitor it closely over the next month or two. This is very disconcerting...

Bill

robert116

Ralph/Otis good news, could you please post your cars manufacturing date?

Bit, I hope I am wrong but I believe the problem to be very widespread with at least the first year owners.

ateixeira

Bill: if you go to Gaithersburg, say hi to Jake Moran. He's a mechanic there. See if you can have him take a look at it. I'd be curious to see if the gaskets are bad or something.

I've seen prices for VDC dip to close to $28k here in the DC area, at fitzmall.com. The '03s will add a 6CD changer, plus chrome rings around the dials in the dash, and new wheels/bumper/grille.

Robert had a good idea - maybe Bill can post his manufacture date too.

-juice

ucajlc

Thank you to Juice and Patty for heading me in the right way to resolving the problem with my early H6 that loses a whole coolant overflow tank every month. The Dealer told me the problem was in my head which was not a great customer service tactic.

Patty arranged for the regional Subaru to get involved which he did by instructing the dealer to pressure test the system overnight and look for leaks. There were no leaks observed so I was told by the dealer to keep my eye on the coolant but everything is fine.

I have never owned a car that required so much coolant attention to be within factory limits. I wonder how many drivers in America would have over heated engines if they were required to check their coolant and refill the entire coolant overflow tank monthly.

If I had known that Subaru's were such high maintenance vehicles, I certainly would not have purchased one.

However, the problem is probably limited to a small percentage of the early H6 engines thus it is not a big deal to Subaru. However 100% of my experience is with this vehicle so it is more important to me.

My honest suggestion for those with the problem is to sell the problem vehicle before Consumer Reports finds out and the car is rated unacceptable as a used car. The value will really drop then.

I wish everyone well but I am bailing out.

Jim

ateixeira

Did the dealer mean the problem was in your cylinder heads? LOL, that would be a rather humorous misunderstanding.

-juice

brownwj

I also am experiencing coolant loss and it appears to be accelerating. I have marked it on the overflow and I will monitor it. So far about a pint in 14,000 miles but more in the last couple of weeks. I am going to anlyze my oil also. Doea anybody know if Subaru will do it if you pay them. At least they can not say it is a false report if they do ithe analysis.

subaru_team

Your best bet is to not do anything until a dealer looks at it. Once you are set to go in, please call us (1-800-SUBARU3) and start a case to see what is going on. That way, we can track it and see what is happening. The dealer can check for coolant in the oil. What State are you from?

Patti

mikenk

Your coolant loss issue seems similar to mine. Did the acceleration of loss by some chance happen after an extended trip?

As was Patti's recommendation to you, I have a case file going with SOA. They have set an appointment next week with my dealer and a regional SOA tech rep. I hope you do the same; the more similar cases, the better our chance of deciphering the problem.

Mike

ateixeira

14k miles is a lot of driving. One pint seems like a normal amount of coolant loss IMHO.

If you were having to add coolant at every oil change, that would be a different story.

-juice

mikenk

In my case, that has been the frustrating part. I can go extended periods with very little loss. I try to convince myself it is normal. Then I will drop from full to add in the reservoir over a short period, and then the rate of loss will almost stop again. This cycle has happened three times over 15k miles. It is hard to make a strong case with the dealer with such a sporadic problem.

I appreciate SOA getting involved; I am hoping for a simple logical explanation. There has never been any hint of overheating or any other performance issues.

Mike

originalbitman

That's one important reason for getting a case started with SOA. At least this way they can track the frequency of the problem as it presents itself over a number of vehicles.

bit

brownwj

Subaru Team - I am from Virginia. I have not informed the dealer yet. I will do it when I take it in for the 15,000 mile check which should be in about 3 weeks. I do not put on a lot of miles - approximately 8,000 per year. I will double check to make sure they can analyze the oil for coolant.

I was not sure if the quantity (a little over a pint in 18 months was really enough to worry about). However since it dropped about a half-inch since I marked it about 225 miles ago, I am wondering if it is accelerating. I need to have more data to be sure.

The half-inch drop happened over about a two week period with 16-miles to work each way, and not driving every day. I have not yet taken a long single trip. A half-inch could be temperature expansion. Although, I always check it when it is cool.

For the past year, I was not very good about checking my fluid thinking that a new car would have no leaks.

No other problems with the car though. Also, the oil does not appear milky which I have seen in another car in which I had a head gasket leak. (Toyota Tercel). At any rate, I will get a sample and have it analyzed. If not from the dealer then from another source

I will keep you all posted, but as I said it will take time because I do not drive it every day.

If other H-6 drivers do not have ay coolant loss then something is wrong with the cars who are losing fluid. I have not had this problem before in a new car. I wonder if any of the 4-cylinder cars have the loss.

WMarton

I had my 2001 VDC in for the 15k service (have 13.6k on the odometer) yesterday at Fitzgerald's (White Flint--sorry Juice). The coolant level was definitely low (into the neck of the reservoir) and I printed out a few pages of this board to reiterate for the dealer that this seems to be a problem. The service rep didn't seem too impressed and said that you have to take stuff like this with a grain of salt--fair enough. He also said that the regional rep for Subaru was unaware of any problem with the H6 coolant system. He refilled the reservoir, pressure tested the coolant system for leaks, found none, and pronounced the car A-OK. However, if they topped off the reservoir (i.e., filled it to the "full line"), something is definitely squirrelly since the coolant was about 1-2" below the full line already this morning. It is possible that there is some variation due to expansion/contraction so I'm not panicking (yet). I'm going on vacation next week to NC/TN/GA and will monitor the coolant level closely. If it drops noticeably, I'll return it to the dealer and start a case file with Subaru.

Bill

mfsb

I have an 02 LLB with less than 2000 miles on it. The coolant level is at the add mark on the reservoir. Does anyone know if it is likely/unlikely to have a new car shipped with the fluid level low. Thanks, Bill

ateixeira

Mike: you seem to be patient so hang in there and work with the dealer, providing as much info as possible (i.e. conditions when you notice the level dipping).

You guys seem to be really on the ball, so hopefully we can all help find a resolution, or at least an explanation, for the problem.

Bill (the other Bill, mfsb): you need what I call a "baseline", so fill it up now, and check the level after at least one drive where the engine has operated at a normal temp for a few miles. Then mark it with a grease pencil, and track it from that point on.

-juice

otis123

Now I'm confused and a little concerned! I stated 7/30/02 that my coolant was between full and add. When I brought it in for an oil change the next day (7/31/02) it was below add! I had them add some coolant to the tank, but it wasn't documented. I have never had an overheat situation/light come on, etc. I am now going to monitor the level over the coming weeks!
BTW, my LLBean was manufactured 1/12/01 and delivered 2/1/01.

mfsb

Juice, thanks for the tip. Off to get the grease pencil now. Bill

carfun2

I find that I get sleepy after driving slightly over an hour in my 2002 LL BEAN OUTBACK with the climate control on during hot days. I can drive my full size pick up alot longer before getting sleepy.
In looking under the car the exhaust pipe does not go out far enough. Most other cars the pipe will just clear the bumper so that the gases won't get trapped

carfun2

I find that the steering wheel blocks my exit when I try to get into or out of my Outback Wagon,and I checked out the MATRIX from Toyota and that car is easier to get in and out of.
I am 62, the target age for this car, and I should not have to play with the seat every time I drive the car. Unless Subaru improves their cabin for big drivers, I will have to pick another make.

ateixeira

Interesting, I'd never heard a comment like that. I recall that a few luxury cars, like the Millenia, automatically raise the steering wheel when you open to door, for easy access. Perhaps Subaru could consider that for their high-end models.

As far as the sleepiness goes, I bet the Bean is a lot more comfy. ;-)

-juice

mikenk

I took my wife's VDC into the dealer this morning as advised by SOA for the slow coolant loss problem. The field rep is supposed to be there sometime today. Hopefully, they can decipher the problem. I was hoping to give it an extended highway drive which seems to accelerate the loss but didn't get a chance.

I got a bright red Escort as the rental car for my wife to drive. Everybody needs to rent such a car sometime just to appreciate their Sooby. I will be wearing earplugs this afternoon when my wife gets back from running errands.

As for me, I have a renewed appreciation for my WRX. I think I had gotten used to its power and quietness. It was fun punching the Escort, listening to the muffler roar, the transmission downshift, and no noticeable change in speed.

Mike

ateixeira

My Chevy Cavalier convertible was worse than that.

-juice

paisan

I find the same problem on the 00-02 Outbacks as well. Why subaru doesn't just pull out the telescopic, memory tilting wheels they had on the XT6 and SVX I don't know. They wer pretty nifty. You could tilt them the way you do a normal wheel, but there was a separate lever to "release" it and it would pop all the way up. The next time you get in you just push down the wheel and it returns to the same spot it was adjusted to. The Telescopic was nice too for us "larger" drivers so we could push the wheel away from our tummy while still reaching the pedals.

-mike

mikenk

My 2001 VDC was at the dealers yesterday for tests regarding my periodic coolant loss. The regional tech manager from SOA was there and definitely involved in the testing. They did not find any internal or external leaks with seemingly fairly extensive pressure testing. This did not surprise me since it has been stable for the last couple of months. The SOA rep called late in the afternoon. We agreed that I wouldn't top it off and when it dropped again, he would get involved again with the dealer and we would do further testing.

I was pleased with the SOA involvment. The rep had taken the time to to review the Edmunds posts and seemed to be engaged in the potential problem. Personally, I am comfortable with my situation.

An interesting observation on my rental escort. I checked its coolant level. It was at the low mark. It took 32 oz to take the reservoir back to the full mark. The OB only takes about 8 oz to fill. This suggests that Sooby's have a lot less room for coolant variation.

Mike

ateixeira

Good to hear that SoA is making the effort.

Generally, Subaru's tolerances are very tight, so that makes sense. That can be good (quality, gap tolerances) or bad (fault tolerance).

-juice

kens

Mike,

Once SoA is involved in your case, you're in good hands. Even if they can't find anything this time, you'll have it on record so it will be easy to take any future follow up action if necessary.

Ken

robert116

Quote from a letter sent to us by SOA:
"it is Subaru of America, Inc's opinion that your vehicle is operating as designed and no repairs or adjustments were necessary to correct any non-conformity".

Enough said.

rsholland

Juice and I picked up '03 Outback brochures today, prior to attending a MB event, debuting the new E-Class.

I notice the H-6 wagons now are rated to tow 2400 pounds, like the Baja and Forester 5-speeds. H-6 sedans and H-4 Outbacks remain rated at 2000 pounds.

(Juice, check out the second spread of specs, that pertain to the H-6 models).

Bob

subaru_team

I'm watching your case, albeit from the outside right now. I appreciate your patience while we check into this further!

Patti

rsholland

the '03 Outback brochure with the '02 Outback brochure, I noticed that on the "specs" pages, it is now mentioned that the '03 has "internal rebound springs" on the front struts. I guess this is part of the '03 suspension upgrade.

Bob

hypov

What's that?
Aren't springs supposedly to rebound any way?

-Dave

tos

Could someone describe the new radio in the '03? It says in Edmunds that it now has a six-disk in-dash but a peek through a locked window makes it look like a single. Perhaps it stacks up all six inside through this single slot? It also looked like it lost the tape deck (room to store the six disk internally). Is this true?