Subaru Outback VDC

hunter001

Honda will not provide warranty coverage on a Canadian vehicle bought to the US and vice-versa. Hopefully, Subaru does not have any such issues.

Later...AH

kullenberg

I saw a couple of snipits of info in the latest Car and Driver; Subaru is looking at putting a single turbo on the H6 motor; they are also looking at a 5 speed tranny with man u matic. Now if only they would put it all together on a VDC Outback, I'd be in line. SOA, are you listening??
Cheers
Pat

ateixeira

I think the lineup is going to get a lot more interesting in the next year or two. The tough decision will be which one to choose!

-juice

brownwj

Severa months ago I wrote that I had lost some coolant and it appeared to be accelerating the loss. I stated that I was going ot keep an eye on it and let you know. It has been about 2,000 miles since then and I realy have not lost any more coolant. Maybe it had something to do with the hot summer months. At any rate I really like the car. The engine is very smooth. I rate it quieter and smoother than my 2002 Avalon XLS. I also like the sound system on the radio better. Incidently, it is not the Macintosh sound system. It is the upgraded speaker system. It is a 2001 with 17,000 miles and I have had absolutely nothing go wrong with it. Driving back and Forth to work, I get about 23 mpg. I have not really had it out on a highway trip yet.

mikenk

Thanks for the report. Mine has been stable now for over about 8000 miles. I still believe that the coolant reservoir is too small for the engine. Out of curiosity, where has the coolant level stabilized? Mine stabilized at about an inch above the low mark. I am convinced that if I topped the reservoir to the top line, it would somehow lose coolant back to the same spot and stabilize.

Mike

ateixeira

Excellent news. Sounds like the theory that the reservoir might just be a bit small for the normal temp variances in the H6 could be true after all. It'll be interesting to see if Subaru makes any design changes.

But at least it doesn't seem to be detrimental at all to the cooling system.

-juice

nygreg

still seems to be dropping. I might have a flush and pressure test done (it has 32K on it now).

Greg

pdhamilton1

These look like expensive but amazing alternatives to chains. We don't get much snow here in Western Washington, but I'm 1000 feet up a mountain and I don't like sliding off of it! Will these work? Damage the car? Thanks for any feedback...

Paul

paisan

I recently checked my SVX and it was way way down. This was after about 500+ miles of "sprited" driving over a few weeks time. My guess is that the resivoir is too small for the H6 engines.

-mike

ateixeira

paisan and Greg: any fluctuations in the temp gauge? I guess no harm as long as the engine temps are within the normal range.

Paul: you got a link?

-juice

otis123

Some real-life data...

My LLBean has 35K miles today.

I had the coolant flushed (pressure flushed) at 31,452 (10/16/02). The observed cold level after flush was at the MAX line. Prior to the flush, the level was fairly constant at about an inch above the bottom of the tank.

At 33,978 (11/27/02), I observed the cold level at the MIN level. Had Subaru service document the level and add coolant to 1 inch above the MAX level. My Subaru-certified, award-winning (97,98,99,00,02), honest mechanic told me they (him and reg Sub. rep.)have tested coolant and oil for contamination on a couple H6s and have found no problems. He acknowledged they have no idea what is going on (he also continues to update me that the H6 is the most trouble-free car he has seen in many years at this Ford/Subaru service department). He thinks it is caused by air that gets trapped in the system. He purged the system before adding the coolant.

Now at 35,000 (today) I observed the cold level at 1 inch above the MAX line (=no change). So, bottom line, I'm not too worried. My warranty is up in a month or so - I've documented the readings - and my little black tank continues to ride nice and smooth...

Ralph

ateixeira

Cool, Ralph. I wonder why the H6 seems to have more air pockets that other Subie engines?

Glad to hear the H6 is reliable. Sometimes I wish I had pushed my wife harder into that LL Bean.

-juice

otis123

My wife pushed me into the LLBean (black) because she liked the two-tone tan/brown seats better than the Limited (tan) and better than the VDC (gray). Funny, after almost 2 years of ownership, it is the engine/drivetrain/ride (smooth and powerful) that we both like the most (and AWD, of course)! Who cares about the seats! You don't even see them! (I also like the weight - 3750 lbs.).

3 years ago I thought Subarus were goofy looking and didn't think I would ever buy one. But after my sister bought her 2nd Outback (Limited) in 2000 I started to look into them. Now as I look to replce a 96 Accord, there is nothing out there that handles like a car (sorry, Highlanders and Pilots DO NOT handle like cars), has AWD, has height (Passat doesn't), AND......is reliable (cross off Volvo XC). So, I will be financially sound for now and wait for my slightly wider, curtain-bagged, monotone black, 2005 Turbo H6 Outback.... :-)

Ralph

paisan

No temp changes on mine. The only time it changed ever was when I ran @ limerock @ 5-7K rpms for 20-30min sessions! Even then it only rose slightly above the middle.

-mike

ateixeira

I like the two-tone as well. That and the steering wheel give is a distinctly Lexus-ish look and feel.

Pilot feels BIG. Nice, but it's more like being captain of a ship, at least compared to Subies. Highlander is a little better, but still not at all sporty.

-juice

nygreg

Paisan. The tanks are small so any small fluctuation shows up. However, my level has been consistantly dropping. In 1.5 years / 32K miles, I have added coolant (not much) 3 times. I am not too worried, but want to make sure there are no leaks. I will bring it in for a flush and have them pressure test it to make sure.

I believe this is covered under the 5/60 warranty, not the 3/36 warranty.

Greg

hunter001

If I am not mistaken, the much larger Honda Pilot/Acura MDX has a shorter turning radius than the smaller Toyota Highlander/Lexus RX300. I believe by around 5 feet or so. So when turning, the Highlander/RX should feel bigger.

Later...AH

paisan

But the Pilot/MDX I think is 2-4" wider than other ones in the class.

-mike

hunter001

That's true. That could be a big disadvantage, if the garage is a small one. It could also pose issues when moving along on narrow lanes.

Later...AH

ateixeira

Turning radius is just one factor. The Pilot feels much bigger, more disconnected from the road, and it turns in more slowly in a curve. Maybe it's a function of the steering ratio and weight, plus the tires and suspension tuning.

The HL is more fun, but still nothing to brag about.

-juice

purtypitcher

Greetings!

I just purchased an '01 VDC wagon with 10,700 miles on it, and am considering an extended warranty. The dealer (non-Subaru) of course pushed their plan, but I wanted to check around.

Is subaruwarranty.com the best place to purchase a Subaru extended warranty? Are their other plans that you suggest I look at? I would lean to a genuine Subaru plan, but would consider others.

I looked at warrantygold.com because of the link from Edmunds, are they any good?

I'm sure I'll be checking in here with lots of questions once I get to know the car a little better, it's my first Soob. And sorry, it's not Dave, but Don.... at least I got the first letter right. Also left handed, Mac user, full time artist.

...Don

ateixeira

I'm not sure about a 3rd party, will they be around in 7 years? Edmunds has changed partners already, what happened to the old one? (I don't know)

I got a 7/100 Subaru Gold. Right off the bat, it includes roadside assistance, so we cancelled AAA and saved $497. It'll help resale a lot, we'll probably sell in 6.5 years, with warranty left. I'm sure that adds a few hundred in resale. Plus, you get red carpet treatment by the dealer.

We lost a trim piece from the luggage area, it was our fault so I totally expected to pay for it. Nope, they covered it, no questions asked. Even shipping was free.

-juice

ncvol

I just noticed that Edmunds did a stereo review of the McIntosh system in the VDC and said they really weren't impressed with it.

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/70543/page004.html

Everyone on this thread has said they liked it, and while this is a pretty subjective area, this review troubles me. The McIntosh is one of two reasons to buy the VDC over the Bean, and if the Mac really doesn't sound that great, I'm not sure the VDC alone justifies the $2000+ markup.

ateixeira

VDC is really two things, the VTD AWD and the traction/stability control.

But yeah, I think the Bean is a better value. I think Ford charges $400 for stability control option on some cars.

-juice

mikenk

I will give you my opinion, and I do consider myself an audiophile in that I have a vast cd music collection, a high end home system, and can distinguish subtle differences. However, all people have different preferences in sound. I would suggest strongly that you take the highest quality cd you own and listen to it in the Bean and VDC and judge for yourself. If all you listen to is fm; I wouldn't worry about the differences.

I found the Mac system the best stock unit I have listened to; I have a cd I have burned for demos that really allowed it to do its stuff. I have not heard the Levinson system to compare that system.

Concerning that review, the writer assumed that the head unit was simply a Clarion unit since Clarion owns McIntosh and that seemed to color his whole thought process. I have read more in depth articles that discussed McIntosh involvement in the design, and in fact the unit is similar to other McIntosh designs. I have also read other reviews that praise it highly, a viewpoint I concur with.

But again, your ears (and your family's) are the only ones that count.

Good Luck on your decision; I think you will be happy either way.

Mike

ncvol

I will definitely have to try it out before making a decision, but it's good to hear an "audiophile" weigh in as well. I thought there were some inaccuracies in the review as well about the level of involvement McIntosh had in the designing of the system. From what I have heard up until now, McIntosh installs each system themselves, and has designed the sound insulation in each car as well. That article made it sound like Subaru did all that.

As for the VDC element, I'm wondering if it's worth the extra money as well. The VW's similar feature is an option on the GLX Passat Wagon, and only costs $280. Plus, with all the safety features that come on the L.L. Bean already, I'm wondering how much actual use I'll ever get out of the VDC. It's nice to have it, but it's not like the Bean would be sliding all over the place in rain or snow.

mikenk

You are right - there is extra sound insulation in the VDC; I have no idea on how much difference it makes, but the VDC is the quietest highway car I have owned.

One thing to consider is whether you will really miss the features you are not getting; over time the cost difference will fade away, but the missing feature might bug you if you really wanted it. So, if you can refuse the feature and not look back, I would go the cheapest route.

Mike

ncvol

Yeah, that's the real key. I have a sense that if I don't suck it up and pay the extra, I'll always wish I had gotten more. The problem is while I can hear the difference with the stereo on a test drive, as a practical matter I probably won't get to experience what the VTD and VDC give me over what the Bean has.

On the other hand, I've never really regretted getting the XLT Explorer vs. the Eddie Bauer or the Limited, so maybe I won't care that much.

mikenk

Actually, the VDC is my wife's. She normally doesn't care about features as long as she is comfortable and has good visibility. She really wanted the VDC system more than I did. She is so much more comfortable driving in bad weather since she thinks Uncle Subie is watching over her. What price is peace of mind?

I don't know whether you have any insecure drivers, but that was a big factor in my decision. She has always been terrified of losing control in a blowout; she expects the VDC system to help if that ever happens. Is there any VDC experts out there who could comment on that capability.

Mike

paisan

unfortunately mike's wife is a perfect example of those vehicles smacked into guardrails. Hopefully it won't happen to her but i've heard tons of "I don't understand how I hit the guardrail? I have 4wd and traction control!" My suggestion is to have her take a high performance driving school or just a driving school in general. That would give her more confidence in an emergency situation and probably help more than any VDC system can.

-mike

ncvol

The VDC (or whatever I decide on) would be primarily for me to drive, with my family often in it. Personally, I've never had much problem getting around in bad weather, and even managed to go out in a front wheel drive Explorer when we had the biggest snow ever (20") here in Raleigh about three years ago. So even though I'm not all that worried about needing a "big brother" to keep me out of trouble, it still has some value for patches of ice, unexpected troubles, etc. My wife is basically unwilling under any circumstances to drive in the snow or ice, so I'm not sure that even a sure-footed vehicle like the VDC would get her out behind the wheel on those days.

purtypitcher

I've had my '01 VDC for a couple of weeks now, and just a few nights ago got to experience the VDC in operation. I was on a very back Kentucky road heading home late at night, and temps were in the upper 20's. I was heading into a fairly sharp right turn, and as I entered the turn, I saw some patchy ice, and an oncoming truck. I couldn't swerve to avoid the ice because of the truck, but I did get on the brakes. I immediately felt the brake pedal pulsing.

I don't really know which wheel was doing what at the time, but I did get around that bend without incident, and with total control. I have to figure that VDC was doing something, and the fact that I don't really know what it was doing is fine with me, because I don't need to know the specifics.

Funny how my attitude about having the VDC went from "it's a nice little extra" to "I'm really glad I have it."

The stereo? I think it is very good. I used to be somewhat of an audiophile, built some of those neat Hafler amps and preamps, etc. There is always going to be subjective differences in what sounds good, but the added sound insulation is, to me, the biggest benefit of all. It is an amazingly quiet highway cruising car and it lets me hear what the stereo can deliver without having to blast the volume. Of course, it also does that quite nicely, too!

...Don

tos

"VDC is really two things, the VTD AWD and the traction/stability control."

While those two things are true I would add the Mac, sound proofing and rear-wheel bias to my list. Combined they add up to a VDC bias for me. Though I do not own either I haven't been able to talk my wife into giving up her 1998 Outback Limited yet.

Anyone know what the 60,000 mile service costs?

paisan

my guess is that you felt ABS not VDC working, especially if you were braking during the incident.

-mike

nygreg

light comes on when it engages. However, in a "slippery" situation you might not notice it.

Greg

hunter001

Actually, the VDC-Outback employs a True Dual planetary gear Center differential working along with Electronically controlled Transfer Clutch packs in its AWD system. It is a very Sophisticated AWD system and the car itself drives with 55% of the power on the rear wheels and 45% on the front wheels, in non-slip conditions. Depending on conditions, it can transfer upto 85% of the power to the rear wheels. Along with the Stability control system, this is a very effective AWD system.

The LL Bean model does not have this sophisticated AWD system. It drives like a Front Wheel Drive car in most conditions and can transfer upto 50% of the power to the rear wheels, if conditions demand that, through its Electronic transfer clutches. It lacks a Center differential. Since it lacks a Center Differential, AWD can be de-activated by putting in a fuse, thus making it 100% Front Wheel drive. This AWD system too would get the job done, but it is no VTD.

The cost differential between the VDC and the LLBean, is not for the Monsoon Audio system or the brake based Traction/Stability Control system...it is for the Sophisticated VTD-AWD system present in the VDC.

If you are buying the cars for their Audio system, then you might as well go for the LL Bean system (thus saving some money) and if you are not happy with the Audio, you could get Aftermarket Audio system replacements, that are specifically made for the vehicle and perform much better than regular factory systems. JMHO.

Later...AH

purtypitcher

I've noticed that the newer model VDCs have a VDC Off switch, my '01 doesn't. Why would you want to turn VDC off? The only thing I could think of would be maybe if you put the spare tire on, and it was not exactly the same diameter as the other tires, it might cause problems.

Would there be an easy way to rig a VDC Off switch in my '01?

Regarding my experience above, I don't know if the light came on, I wasn't exactly looking at the dash!

...Don

paisan

No offense but non VTD enabled subarus have 80%/20% torque split as per Patti from SOA so they aren't FWD cars by any size shape or form.

As for VDC off, you'd want it if you were auto-xing, driving in sand, and a few other situations.

-mike

ncvol

Thanks for all the responses, I do like the idea of the soundproofing in the VDC, regardless of how good the McIntosh actually sounds.

kens

Service costs vary A LOT from dealer to independent mechanic. Many places will do more than the minimum recommended in the service manual. I don't know what it is on the H6, but on the H4 models, it usually comes out in the $300-500 range. Shop around and ask for a list of the services performed. Many dealers/shops will let you customize what they do.

Ken

cptplt

some people like to take the car to the limit and turn off electronically controlled stability systems, for the average driver though the safety factor is more important than the fun factor.

C & D did a comparison of the OB VDC, 330xi and A4, the latter two had a off button for their stability control while the 01 VDC does not. They could put the Bimmer and Audi into the ditch but never the Sube. In another mag, ?Grassroots motorsports comparing the WRX with a 330i, they thought having the ESC on made the Bimmer "as much fun as driving a Chrysler minivan".
I believe the Legacy B4 does not come with VDC and if they really do send a 2.5T Legacy to N America, they should keep it that way or have a VDC which can be completely turned off (most systems still turn back on above certain speeds as the off feature is really supposed to just help increase traction at low speeds on low traction surfaces)

myuen

I am looking to get the best price (Dealer Invoice +/-) for a new 2003 H6-VDC wagon. I was quoted what I think is a good price (i.e. below dealer cost).

What is a "competitive" price to you? (assume paying cash, no trade-in, etc.) Thanks.

djstewart

Anyone know when we might get an idea of what's in store on the '05 edition Outback? I'm looking at the '03 Anniversary Edition Outback (Available in Canada only I believe), which offers the H6 engine, H6 style wheels, auto climate control and leather steering wheel and shifter. Main difference between this model and other non-VDC H6's is that it has cloth interior and no sunroof. About a $4,000 saving over regular H6 model which comes with all the bells and whistles. I'm seriously tempted but hate to pull the trigger on this if major changes in store in just 1 1/2 to 2 years down the road. Was told by someone that European Subaru sites sometimes have redesigns first. Any info appreciated.
Don

nygreg

My guess would be that when the new ones come out, you will pay more for all the bells and whistles until they recoup some of their investment. So maybe, get more now or get a newer look with some more refinements in 2 years. Tough choice.

Greg

ncvol

I requested a quote from the local Subaru Dealer's internet department on a 2003 VDC and got one for $27,417, with taxes, title and license fees, $28,500. That's with the optional auto-dimming mirror. This sounds too good to be true, it's like $2400 under what Edmunds has as the invoice price. Only problem is that it's a monochrome Titanium Pearl (possibly my least favorite color) with gray leather (I prefer the beige). My larger problem is that, for current financial reasons, I won't be in the market to actually buy until the later summer. Are these things just not moving off the lots, or should I be worried about this particular vehicle (did someone die in it? is it haunted?). Seems too good to be true.

lshklover

I have the same issue as the poster of #1342. Occasionally the ABS and VDC lights would not go off after the car was started. Restarting the car would clear this condition. This is 2002 VDC sedan, I got the car in August and it started in October so it might be cold related. I went to the dealer and they said they had no idea and the computer did not store any codes. They told me to get to them when the lights were on and they would troubleshoot... . Any ideas? . Also fancy McIntosh radio produces noise when I adjust the volume and the dealer offered me to take it out and send it to the factory for 3 weeks. Did anyone have this problem?
Thanks.

snowbelter

I have an 02 VDC wagon. I was getting static on my radio when I adjusted the volume and asked the dealer if there was a spray/lube i could use. He told me Subaru was replacing radios, if we asked, and that there was an "improved" model with a volume control w/o notches that he said were causing the problem. So they ordered me a radio which turned out to have the same "notches" on the volume dial as the original, and after a couple of months, the static is back, worse than before. I haven't been back to the dealer yet to complain. Are you having a problem with disappearing coolant as several of us have noted?

ateixeira

You canucks are lucky, that anniversary model is just the ticket - H6 for a great price. I hope they come here too.

Below invoice is good - they're probably getting dealer incentives plus sharing their holdback with you. I doubt prices will go up as the model year passes on, the opposite is morel likely.

-juice

lshklover

I followed advice found on this forum, shut radio off and rotated volume knob back and force for one minute and the noise dissapeared. I have a different question: do you guys like how this radio sounds? For my taste it sounds very metallic,almost distorted, - you hardly can listed to any lyrical songs or classical music. I would really want to have some DSP capabilities to adjust the sound. I do not question dynamic range, signal to noise or quality of the speakers but the end result is still not that good.

Regarding engine coolant - I did not track it closely as most people on this board. I read the threads and it seems in spite of all efforts of many people there is still no clear explanation. Let's see if SOA people who watch over this board tell us something about ABS/VDC lights staying on.

mikenk

Mine sounds great and accurate on some very challenging music and with a lot of testing, including Jazz and vocals. I do not test classical because the dynamic range is really not conducive for car audio, but I will later out of cuiosity. It sounds like either your settings are off or you have a bad system. Make sure your bass and treble settings are flat.

If it still sounds bad, I would take a good cd to your dealer and listen to it in your car and another to compare.

Mike