Subaru Outback VDC

vincer2

Subaru has had the 6 cd in dash player since at least the 2000 model year. The cd's are fed in thru the single slot and then magically stacked inside the unit. Perhaps the tape player has been discontinued but my unit does have a tape player. Don't recall that I've ever used it.

A real slick design except on the automatics the gear selecter needs to be moved from the park position to provide ample space to insert or remove the cds. Not sure if this has been changed on the newer models.

Vince

rsholland

<< Subaru has had the 6 cd in dash player since at least the 2000 model year. >>

Not for the MAC unit found on the VDC. The 6-CD changer used to be under the front passenger seat, IIFC.

Bob

ateixeira

Bob: the devil is in the details, nice catch.

Now we know it's the lawyers that set the limits - nothing significant changed to get that higher rating. The brakes are the same, right?

The Forester also got internal rebound springs. Put me on the list of folks who have no idea what that means! I think they are referring the the inner shock valving, not the coil springs.

-juice

lmaxson

For clarification, the 2003 Outback is now standard with AM/FM/weatherband/CD stereo. The CD player is a single. If you take the 6-CD changer option, you will also get a cassette player. It's the same all-in-one unit found in the WRX and the Forester XS standard. The uplevel Outbacks (6-cyl.) will come with the 6-CS changer in them, but on a base Outback, you will have to upgrade to that. And at last, the McIntosh in the VDC will have a 6-disc changer! That was the only flaw to last year's VDC, in my opinion!

ateixeira

Just reviewed that brochure again. Why 2000 lbs for the sedan, but 2400 lbs for the wagon?

The Baja gets the 2400 lbs rating too, so you might think it has to do with the weight of the vehicle.

But then why does the even lighter new Forester get rated for 2400 lbs? I can't make sense of it all.

Glad to hear the 6CD is appearing on more models, my wife and I both have them and love 'em!

-juice

rsholland

but 2400 for H6 wagons, but the H4 Baja also has that rating, yet 2400 pounds is not for the H4 Outbacks or Legacys!?

Bob

ateixeira

Yep, makes no sense...

The Forester X weighs, what, 3090 lbs? The H6 sedan is lighter than the wagon, but far heavier than the Forester.

-juice

kullenberg

This forum seems to have gone very silent. There was a lot of postings about mysterious coolant loss in the 6 cyl. engines, and now nothing. I don't see it on the Legacy Wagon board either. Was it all so miraculously solved, or what? Juice, Patti, what gives? I must say that it had put me off Subaru, as a potential purchase, but I thought I would take another look.
Cheers
Pat

mikenk

In reality, there had never been that many that had reported a problem, so it was never a widespread issue. I was one of them. At this point, my coolant level is stable, the SOA district rep has been involved, and we have a testing plan if it drops again. I have been pleased with the SOA response in my case; I have confidence that if there is a problem, we will find it and fix it. So I have not posted since I have no new information.

Since it takes only about a cup of fluid to move the coolant from the low to high mark, I believe a lot of the perceived problems could be because of this tolerance. A few people might have a real problem, but I don't believe that there is any general design flaw in the H6 engine.

Even though I have this potential problem, I would still buy the car again. I love the quietness, the ride, the H6 smooth power, and the stereo system. I feel good in it.

Mike

robert116

kullenburg; we own a thirsty H6 and I can say that one should think very carefully about purchasing this edition.

Our fifth, and last Subaru, continues to use coolant, SOA stated to us in a letter that the vehicle is operating 'as intended'.

What more does any potential customer need to know?

mikenk

I have no idea what is going on with Robert and SOA, and I must admit, I am curious. But whatever, there has never been any hint to me from anyone at SOA that coolant loss was 'as intended'. I would suggest that Robert's comments be taken with a grain of salt. IMHO, His ongoing episode is just too weird for logical comprehension.

paisan

I have to agree with mikenk seems odd.

-mike

kullenberg

So far, my thoughts on this subject are these; if the coolant is not showing up on the garage floor, then if it is truly disappearing, the loss must be internal in the engine; in which case it should show up in the oil. This should be detectable through some fairly simple testing. Has this been the case?
On a totally seperate subject; can anyone comment on the leg room in the front seat of this edition of the Outback. My mother has one of the previous edition, and I had one of the very early ones, and I found them to be very cramped. Good cars but small. TIA
Cheers
Pat

mikenk

Theoretically, coolant could leak out, could evaporate, could go into oil, or could leak into the cylinders and be burned. Robert reported that he had tests run to show antifreeze in the oil; I have not heard of any corroborative results. If mine drops again, I will get further tests, find the problem, and get it fixed under warranty.

Concerning leg room, I think that is too dependent on your personal size and personal taste in comfort. You just have to go for an extended drive and judge for yourself. Not a problem for me, but I am only 5'7''.

Mike

paisan

It could also be leaking only under pressure, like when driving up a hill or what not.

So the "if it's not on the floor therefore it's in the engine" isn't 100% correct.

-mike

kullenberg

That's all fairly and correctly said; however the main issue to me, is it in the oil, which, as I said can be tested. If it is, then we have a design issue; if it isn't, then it must be leaking, in some form, and is correctable.

I notice that some of the GT models are coming with an avail "man-u-matic" shifter. Is there any sense, in all this collective wisdom, that it will become avail. on the Outback? If so, and they would add a turbo to the H6 motor, it would be the ideal vehicle for my purposes. (I live a high altitude).

Cheers
Pat

mikenk

Even if there is glycol in the oil on a car (or few), that does not mean there is a design issue. It would suggest that there is a manufacturing defect (seals, tolerances, or whatever) in those specific cars. The fix could be a new engine; if so, in my case, so be it.

Now if all H6 models were consistently losing fluid, then there would be a design issue. I see no evidence in that due to the few posts with that problem. My problem is sporadic with loss only after extensive trips, which indicates what the other Mike (paison) suggested in my case.

Mike

lumbar

Now that the Baja is out, I've noticed it (4 cyl) is rated to tow 2400 lbs according to Edmunds.

By contrast, the Edmunds specs for the 2002 Outback wagons--both 6 cyl VDC and 4 cyl Limiteds--indicated maximum tow capacity at 2000 lbs. I know that warranty considerations often enter into the GVW tow limits put on vehicles, but it seems to me that the 6 cyl wagon should probably be rated a bit higher than the Baja and certainly higher than the 4 cyl Limited.

I'm not looking to haul a massive trailer--just a pop up camper at about 2200 lbs--but I'm surprised that towing (an "outdoor" activity after all) sems to be a bit shortchanged on these great vehicles that do a lot of things well.

Any thoughts or real world experiences on these numbers?

rsholland

2003 H-6 Outback wagons (only) are also now rated to tow 2400 pounds. All other Outbacks, including H-6 sedans remain at 2000 pounds.

Be aware, however, those ratings are only if the trailer has trailer brakes. The unbraked trailer rating for all Subarus is only 1000 pounds. This is mentioned in the owner's manual.

Bob

ateixeira

Pat: no complaints means good news, I guess? I dunno.

I'd love to hear about the resolutions but I believe Patti has to respect the privacy of each individual's case file, so I doubt she can share specifics of each case with us.

I think if there are enough cases that Subaru issues a TSB, then we'd here more about it.

If the coolant made its way into the combustion chambers, surely the (very sensitive) CEL would be triggered. So I don't suspect that is occuring.

Shiftronic is a neat feature, but IMO they price the 2.5GT too far above the L/SE model to be worth it. It's about $4500 more for the shiftronic, VTD instead of auto AWD, and heated leather. Those things are nice for $2-3 grand, but not $4500 IMO.

For 2003, the tow ratings for the H6 wagons went up to 2400 lbs. And I don't see a design change, so I imagine yours can handle 2400 lbs just as well as a 2003.

What's funny is H6 sedans are still rated for 2000 lbs, while lighter and H4 equipped Forester can tow more. I don't get it, either.

-juice

rsholland

<< For 2003, the tow ratings for the H6 wagons went up to 2400 lbs. And I don't see a design change, so I imagine yours can handle 2400 lbs just as well as a 2003. >>

Don't forget there have been some suspension upgrades for the '03 models.

Bob

lumbar

Thanks to all for fast responses.

It's still interesting to me that the Baja 4 cyl and the Wagon H6 have the same tow numbers, and since I go by the rule to take 80% of mfg's number, that puts it at about 1900 "safe" lbs, assuming trailer has brakes.

ateixeira

Internal rebound springs in the shock absorbers, right? Something like that.

Hey, I wonder if all the models that got the higher tow rating have those struts?

I'd love to be able to make sense of the tow ratings.

-juice

paisan

I read the manual cover to cover on the SVX. It says that FHI doesn't recommend towing with the SVX, but that if you do tow, the rating is 2000lbs. Kinda weird to see that they don't recommend it, but publish a #.

-mike

ucajlc

I had a Subie VDC with the H6 that leaked coolant consistently but only a little at a time. It was enough that the coolant talk would go empty in 5,000 miles. Patti was very helpful in getting the Subaru regional rep to check out the car. After 3 days of thorough tests, he pronounced the car to be within acceptable limits. I was told to keep filling it up and not worry.

This was my first Subie but my son has a WRX. He had not checked coolant ever and when we did at 15,000 miles, it was perfect.

Frankly, I lost confidence in the VDC. I was worried that a problem with as much exposure as this one would come to the attention of Consumer Reports which could result in the used vehicle being rated as undesirable and thus dropping in value dramatically. Thus I dumped the vehicle and bought a Camry. Guess what, 10,000 miles on the Camry and not a drop of coolant has been lost.

Yes, I miss the Subie. No, I do not miss having to closely monitor and add coolant frequently.

Subaru can not be expected to change an engine that is within their normal limits. I guess the bottom line is my personal automobile standards were higher than Subaru's. That does not make the car bad or Subaru villains. I probably just need to be careful to stick to makes with very high quality reputations and not experiment.

If your VDC does not lose coolant, do not worry about it and have fun with your Subie. If your Subie does lose coolant, Subaru does not appear to be in any hurry to exceed your expectations and fix it. Good luck.

Jim

paisan

Good luck! Have fun with sludge....

-mike

robert116

ucajlc, very well said.

If anyone would like to see the letter SOA sent us please let me know and I will post it if that is acceptable or send it to anyone who is interested.

By the way, the day we we picked up our VDC at the dealer we also got the rental car bill that Subaru refused to pay, $900 USD more or less-we were under the impression that transportation was being provided. And yes, if anyone would like to see the bill, marked paid by us, I'll be happy to post or send that along also.

hypov

I believe it is subjective.
A factory makes shirts for two outfits. One is named 'Giorgio Armani' and the other 'Flying Horse'. Which is the better quality shirt?

H6 design flaw? Nah, more like design tolerance being applied. Quality of the engine is inferior? Hmmm... engines are machine made and cast. I wonder who makes those machines that makes those engine? I bet Honda, Toyota, and what have you uses the same machine that Subaru uses. ;-)

Never mind me if I don't make sense. I'm just blabbling a thought off.

-Dave

snowbelter

I own an 02 VDC. I've added coolant twice in the first 7K. (brought the level in the overflow tank up from the "add" to the "full" mark when cold). Now at 10K the level is halfway between "add" and "full". The dealer did the usual pressure check, and looked under and around the engine for leaks and told me nothing was wrong and wrote on my invoice that the coolant was "overfull" because the level was above the "full" mark when the car was hot. I've owned a number of cars and the only times I've ever had to add coolant was when a hose leaked and when my water pump began to fail. I find the VDC to be a great vehicle, and if there's a problem with "disappearing coolant", then I would expect Subaru to fix it. I certainly hope for all of us with coolant concerns that Subaru stands behind its vehicles and not risk losing its reputation for reliability and for standing behind its products.

ateixeira

Funny, paisan, but I've come to expect strange tow ratings from them!

Jim: I hope your Camry was built after July '01, because before that they had sludge issues that make a coolant leak seem like nothing. The new 2.4l engine is okay, it's the old 4 banger and the V6 engines. Check the build date on the door jamb, if it's before 7/01 I'd consider dumping that (if so you have the worst luck in the world), or at least switch to non-sludging synthetic oil and a shorter change interval.

snowbelter's case seems normal. You just don't want it to dip below the "add" level. There will be some fluctuation in the level depending on whether the engine is hot or cold, and above the full mark it'll spill out the overflow valve, won't it?

-juice

kullenberg

From following this thread, I get the impression that this coolant loss occurs after the engine has been run for some time and is well up to operating temp. Is it just possible, that due to the preas. cap, and internal preas. in the eng, combined with a small recovery tank, that the observed loss is normal? Perhaps a larger tank might be the answer. A lower preas. cap came to mind, but that could lead to overheating problems. Just a thought.
Cheers
Pat

ateixeira

I was thinking the same thing - maybe Subaru should look at the Full/Add level markers and the location of the overflow valve, perhaps it's too low or needs to allow for more temp variance?

In the case where there was coolant in the oil, I'd suspect the seals and/or gaskets, but other cases seem less serious.

-juice

ucajlc

Juice, thanks for the advice. Yes, the Camry was built after 7/01, I only use synthetics, and am almost religious about the change interval.

For those without a coolant loss problem, this issue must seem like a weird joke. For those of us with the problem, Subaru's reluctance to do anything, other than pressure test the system and say it is within normal limits, is very frustrating.

The old saying "I never thought about the water until the well went dry" is appropriate. I never thought about engine coolant except to change it every 50,000 (or whatever) miles until this problem cropped up with my Subie.

Are all VDC's bad. Of course not. But on the other hand, they are not all good either.

Jim

snowbelter

I check my coolant level while my car is in the garage and after the car has been sitting overnight. The level does vary depending on whether the engine is warm or hot, but as directed by the Owner's Manual I check it only when the car haas been sitting overnight (and in my garage which is level). My experience has been that once the level of coolant has dropped to the "add" mark, its gone. I don't have a clue whether the coolant has evaporated, or mixed in the oil. But once the level has dropped, the level does not come up at a later date.

mikenk

I largely agree with Pat's comments that the small reservoir size and natural fluctuations explains most of the concerns on this thread, including possibly my own. I have had to add coolant 3 times in 17k miles, but none in the last several months. The rental escort I had was at the add mark and took 4 times the amount to fill it as the Soobie; therefore if the VDC had that reservoir, I would not have added any coolant. I might have had an air pocket or have a small leak under pressure. Will keep monitoring.

That said, it does seem that Robert and Jim have real problems since their's apparently leak continuously. However, their main problem appears to be the lack of a working relationship with SOA in fixing the problem. Based on my personal experiences with the dealer and SOA, I am amazed that it has gotten to that level of animosity.

Mike

hypov

May I add. In addition to its dependent on engine temp., atmospheric and geographic conditions will also affect it. Read in cold at 1000' above sea level will differ from sea level as it would probably be between a clear sunny day and a muggy cloudy day.

-Dave [having another brain f@rt]

ateixeira

Jim: you could say "they are not all good" about any car out there.

snowbelter: could coolant have spilled out the overflow valve, though? A long time ago, when I was new to cars, I overfilled the reservoir, and noticed the coolant spilled over. Not over the top filler neck, mind you, but out some overflow valve. In other words, it wasn't a sealed system.

Just a thought.

-juice

snowbelter

Nothing has spilled out of the overflow tank in my car. No, I did not overfill the reservoir tank, as I filled it to the "add" line. And if the "small size of the reservoir tank" contributes to the appearance of coolant loss, then tell me why owners of cars with H4 engines, with similar-sized reservoir tanks, such as my wife, not notice "coolant loss". There is something going on, but whether it is of real concern, I don't know. I'm just watching, and my comfort level with SOA is high.

mikenk

As was snowbelter, most of my coolant loss also was in the first 7-10 k miles, it then dropped to about half way and has stayed there. I am wondering if the H6 engine is prone to air pockets that have to work out on some cars.

Also, my WRX tank seems to stay right in the middle, but at one time I had topped it off just to compare with the OB, so it has dropped and stabilized to the middle. The SOA field mgr that inspected my OB did make a comment that he had noticed that it seemed that the natural level was halfway on the H6. I am curious if those of you with no problem have the level staying at about halfway between full and add. If so, I am curious if you top it off whether it will seek its level back to halfway. Any experimenters out there?

Mike

brownwj

I have written earlier that I had experienced some coolant loss in that the level had dropped to the Add portion. In 15,000 miles it is about a cup or two. I did send the oil into a laboratory when I changed the oil at 15,000. They said that theie was no evidence of coolant in the oil and that the engine showed unusually low levels of wear. When I had the 15,000 mile check they added a small amount of coolant to bring it to full. I will monitor it and keep you all advised. At any rate it is good to know that the oil is not getting in the engine, at least in one car with a small coolant loss problem. I still really like the car. We also have an Avalon and the Subaru rides at least as quit as the Avalon, maybe better. I average about 24-25 miles per gallon. I intend to keep it for a long time so I am hoping the lack of coolant in the engine indicates that their is another more benign source of loss. I would still but another one.

paisan

My guess is that they didn't make the overflow resivoir (which is the plastic container that everyone here is talking about) large enough to accept the fluxuations in levels seen in the 3.0l H6 engine. Hence when things get heated up it pushes out enough to make it stay at 1/2 full. Also lets not forget that the resivoir is just that. Remember in the "old" days when you didn't have an overflow tank, just the radiator?

-mike

mikenk

Mike,
That is my theory at the moment and why I hope some of you will test that theory. I can't because the SOA rep wanted me to wait until it dropped below the add before they checked it again. Tolerances might make my normal close to the add mark; therefore, after my first drop (air pockets?), I started watching closely, everytime it dropped toward the add mark, I topped it up again and repeated the cycle. I wasn't patient enough to just let it stabilize. I think that is also the thoughts of the SOA rep with our current plan.

Mike

ateixeira

You may have answered your own question, snowbelter. If the H4 has a similar sized tank for a lower displacement engine producing far less power, maybe the H6's reservoir is too small? It's very normal for bigger engines to have higher fluid capacities.

Bill: thanks for taking the time and effort to do that. You da man.

Now we have another data point, and an important one, because your slow coolant loss is likely not harmful.

-juice

paisan

I auto-xed my SVX H6 3.3l this weekend, and I had had the coolant up to the Full mark, at the end of the day I noticed it had gone down slightly, my temp guage hadn't moved (and I watched it all day) I did notice some spillage from the tank.

I'm not sure if it was due to the turns of due to the heavy accerations but that could be helpful to people who have lost some coolant.

-mike

ateixeira

That must mean the reservoir isn't completely sealed, even if the radiator is (sort of).

-juice

paisan

They all have overflow tubes IIRC. Maybe I'm wrong.

-mike

ffsteve

I have a question on the topic. I had always considered an engine cooling system to be sealed, the pressure contained within the radiator by the cap. Now, if one looks at the typical overflow reservoir and lines leading to it, they are simple plastic and rubber. And the cap to the reservoir is a simple clip-type - definitely not pressurized.

Now, how is the transfer of coolant from the radiator into the reservoir controlled? And more interestingly, how is it retrieved from the reservoir? I am certain nothing has changed in the basic design of the cooling system where now they are unpressurized. Is it all in the cap?

Overflow tanks in other cars I have owned did have overflow tubes. One memorable Toyota with a head gasket leak would pump all the coolant onto the ground from the tank overflow tube if parked nose first downhill. The pressure built up in the system would just force everything into the tank, where it simply overflowed. But this action left a mess under the car, and residue of coolant in the engine compartment which was easily recognized by its smell.

Steve

paisan

IIRC the radiator is sealed by the radiator cap, the overflow tube from the rad to the overflow tank is rubber but doesn't come into play until the rad cap's spring is over pressurized and pushes up thereby allowing it to suck or push fluid to the overflow? Also the hose that goes to the overflow goes into the bottom of the overflow below the fluid level so atmospheric pressure would keep it sealed? Just guesses.

-mike

ateixeira

Sounds right.

If the radiator gets hot and the pressure exceeds the cap's specification, it will "vent" out excess coolant into the overflow tank.

When it cools back down, the coolant in the radiator will contract, creating a vaccuum that basically sucks coolant back into the radiator from the overflow tank.

I think this cycle has only a certain tolerance for overflow, and exceeding it may be what makes fluid spill out, and causes the loss of coolant. You may not see it because it'll likely happen when you're out driving, not idling in your driveway.

-juice

snowbelter

I'm watching and waiting to see what happens to the level in my overflow tank. I'm happy to assume that the only problem is that the overflow tank..."has only a certain tolerance...and exeeding it..causes the loss of coolant". But none of us with this concern have yet to report seeing any coolant dripping down the side of the overflow tank or the radiator. And my dealer told me that they put the car up on a lift and took covers or shields around the engine apart to look for coolant "in places where they often find coolant from leaks, and found none. The overflow tank in my 626 had an overflow tube and I did not see one on my Subaru. I was trying to see if there was any coolant in the tube. Don't know if the Subaru system is sealed or hidden from us non-mechanics.