Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

bill100

Whatever! No honda goes for under invoice unless there is a manufacture to customer rebate. Which right now there is not one. Great finance rates though. Who ever is posting that is not being honest. If that was the case Isell would of pointed that out in a heartbeat to me!

bill100

If you can prove it by all means let me know where so I can send ALL my business to them. I will even give my girl the $500 difference!

driftracer

of you as the rest of us.

Since you don't know the car business, you don't know that it's VERY common to get into the holdback on normal units that are plentiful, especially when competing against another dealer's price.

kyfdx

The market where Isell is, is not indicative of most of the country. I guess everyone on that board is lying then, because 90% of them are quoting below invoice on the LX.

I'm thinking you are on to something.. get your buyers to pay more than the average price... those dealers will be willing to pay you a lot more than $125. Not sure where you will find all those sucker buyers, though.

bill100

Not on a Honda. I might believe that on some units that REALLY have a high supply and low demand.

butchbr73

"I'm thinking you are on to something.. get your buyers to pay more than the average price... those dealers will be willing to pay you a lot more than a $125. Not sure where you will find all those sucker buyers, though."

hmmm...now that I look at it that way?

Forget it. Please, we are trying to be polite here, we've had enough of the tireless redundant questions and rants... Why don't you spend some more time researching the car biz itself, learn a bit more by watching/listening, then come back to re-thinking the business plan a bit... who knows, maybe one day we'll all be wrong??? Doubt it, but who knows.

Good luck for now, I've got to go take an afternoon nap or something....

bill100

Ok then why is Edmunds quoting higher than invoice on their TMV report? Give it up kyfdx. My area must not be as indicative either then. Can you tell me where I can find these dealerships so I can verify this instead of reading someones post? Once verified I will pay my girl the $500 and I will inform Edmunds to change their TMV value.

Bill

driftracer

You don't even UNDERSTAND holdback, or how to sell a vehicle or evaluate a trade, and you're telling me my Honda store doesn't dip into holdback? Sorry, but it happens. Maybe not on a Porsche, but certainly on mainstream cars.

If you knew what you were talking about, this would be an interesting conversation. You don't, and it's not. I'll come back when "bill" isn't the discussion leader and topic.

bill100

I am not saying you won't what I am saying is I have never seen it especially on a Honda Accord!!

Believe me drift I know alot more than you think!

Someone give me a dealership name so I can verify this.

kyfdx

Edmunds TMV?? That is the deal you are shooting for? If you can provide buyers at that price, the dealers will be beating down your door.

isellhondas

Regarding my e-mail address and sending me business.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'll pass.

qbrozen

that's pretty much what i wanted to point out, more or less. With all of your supposed experience, Bill, you think TMV is a real number?? Good grief! Do you think Blue Book is the bible to used car sales, too? LOL!

bill100

Holdback - Dealer holdback is a percentage of either the MSRP or invoice price of a new vehicle (depending on the manufacturer) that is repaid to the dealer by the manufacturer. The holdback is designed to supplement the dealer's cash flow and indirectly reduce "variable sales expenses" (code words for sales commissions) by artificially elevating the dealership's paper cost. (WOW that was hard to find) I also know that if you don't meet a certain CSI score your holdback can be stripped from you by the manufacture. I also know that if you don't take some undesirable colors from the manufacture then you may not get the hot selling colors when its time to release the new year models.

I have to say I am not a pro on evaluating trades but I do have a pro that does it for me. He also looks at the Manheim Market Report to see what the car was selling for the previous day at multiple auctions.

Sold many many vehicles. Bought alot to at auctions with the help of my pro. I try to get private party guide book values from my buyers but usually I settle somewhere inbetween private party and trade. Even after reconditioning I still make a profit good enough for me. No need to make several thousand off a buyer and earn their disrespect let alone the word of mouth that could follow.

bill100

Don't think we have met. Read my post then we can talk.

bill100

Exactly what I thought!

qbrozen

i've read all of your posts, and if you look around here on edmunds and earlier on this board, you can read some of mine (I'm not exactly new around here).

akangl

So you think that Edmunds TMV is a great deal?? I paid way less than Edmunds TMV for my 2004 Explorer, granted, its not a Honda, but goes to prove that Edmunds TMV is more of an average of what some people are paying. Doesn't mean its a great deal. I know for a fact that Accord LX's are selling below invoice, a friend just bought one here in Alaska.

stickguy

local dealer (philly area) that has a large internet presence hass been quoting invoice +/- $100 for a while now on Accord sedans. Other dealers have been advertising similar prices in the paper.

$500 over certainly isn't getting "robbed", but your service did not help the customer save money.

And yes, you described (conceptually) a reverse auction, if I remember the description correctly. But how is this any different that any other buyer getting a price and shopping it around?

cynic

Can everybody just start ignoring bill100 and create a troll forum instead so this forum can go back to normal? It's getting very annoying

tornado25

"With your theory your saying sell to buyer A but leave out buyer B just because they didn't come from a referral who bought previously from you? hmmm Now that would be great for business!"

I never said that. You asked what the difference was between a dealer/salesperson paying a $100 bird dog for a referred sale and paying you $125 for sale through your auction service. I explained to you what I though the difference was and asked the regulars here to refute that premise.

I haven't been here that long and while I've had "discussions" with drift and bowke, I think they'd agree that I'm steadfast in my beliefs, but not an unreasonable ranter or person who comes in complaining about the "evil salesperson". My point is that I hope I've at least earned their respect.

With that in mind, my point was not to ignore Customer B, but let's say you are a salesperson who turns over say, 25-40 new units a month. You do this solely through referrals from previous good customers. It is enough to keep you busy everyday and provide you with a comfortable living. With that in mind, if you were that salesperson, why would want to distract your attention from customers you know are the most likely to be reasonable and happy, just to get another 5-10 sales per month. Mind you, those sales are probably mini's anyway.

So again, maybe the dealer wants that business--after all, it is additional units moved. So I won't argue that the idea is totally without merit. But, you asked what the difference was and I told you. To me, if I were a salesperson, I'd rather move 25-40 units a month with top end CSI scores on every one and a decent profit on each--not to mention, having developed a few more hopefully long-term customers.

That's not to say, as you pointed out, that users of your service wouldn't become good customers in the future--but 1) the referred customers are the MOST likely group to be loyal and happy and 2) geez, do you get this? That the very nature of the business model discourages loyalty to one dealer and/or salesperson. You're asking your customers to shop every purchase to death. This does NOT lead to a customer using one dealer for service, body work and every new purchase. It leads them to shopping every service simply for the lowest price.

Drift, isell, am I really wrong here? Or I am just better to leave it alone?

jratcliffe

OK, Bill, I actually checked. It's an Accord LX, 4dr Sedan, automatic, right? Right now, Honda has dealer cash on these, so my extensive effort (45 seconds, max), on carsdirect.com gets a firm quote of $18,357 ($450 BELOW invoice+ad fees), including everything but TTL. You paid $18,900.

So, all your efforts caused your "friend" to pay about $540 more than the price I came up with in 45 seconds. Yeah, I'm not surprised you got that $100 bird dog.

driftracer

good job on the research - so much for this guy "helping" the consumer with that great price, huh??

jlawrence01

Just what I thought. That's why I asked him what kind of deal he worked out.

bill100

2004 Honda Accord
LX 4dr Sedan (2.4L 4cyl 5A)

------------------------------------------

Cars Direct.com... (Which I have beat their price many times over and over) I once had a truck quote $600 under their price and they would not even match my price.

Here is Carsdirect.com numbers...

Target Price:$18,463

MSRP Price: $19,790

Invoice Price : $17,863

------------------------------

Edmunds.com numbers...

MSRP Price: $20,590

Invoice : $18,583

TMV: $19,101

Now let me stress! As you can see Carsdirect.com reports different numbers than Edmunds.com does. I agree that these numbers are only guides and probably don't reflect the true number a dealer actually pays a manufacture for a unit.

jratcliffe - I agree with you that carsdirect.com has a better price. But you must understand where I am from they do not offer service here! Note they offer a target price. Anytime they do that it means they do not offer their service in your state. And I cannot see the same firm quote for my state that you can. I know I called them. It is illegal to broker in my state. And before you guys say it reverse auctions is NOT brokering. I already checked on it. If they did offer service here I would of used them to help my girl save the extra money. They did offer to take me over to invoice dealers. So I have put a request in for a quote there. I will let you guys know what happens.

Now notice what Carsdirect quotes as invoice price! If I would of saved my girl the extra money by using their service IF I had a chance to I still would of paid almost XXX dollars over invoice using their service. You need to subtract their bottom line number towards what they claim is invoice not what Edmunds claims. So you still didn't prove your point that you could use this service to buy under invoice.
So tell me according to you which is more close to the truth on invoice Carsdirect or Edmunds?
 
Bottom line I did not have the opportunity nor does anyone in my state unless they wanted to travel out of state to use Carsdirect.com! Is that worth the extra cash to drive clear out of state? Not to me! Now if we are talking about $1500 or more well then it just might be worth my time and effort. Plus you are talking about manufacture to dealer NOT customer cash. Edmunds does not show this cash as being available. Carsdirect.com probably has a agreement with the dealership to get this cash if it even exsist from them some way or another.

Copied from Edmunds website...

Rebates $0 Cash to Customer start: 05/04/2004 end: 07/06/2004
Restrictions None.
Comments Incentives may vary see your local dealer for details.
 
------------------------------------------

Manufacturer to Dealer

There is no marketing support available at this time.

----------------------------------------------

To Everyone! Nobody has still sent me a dealership that is selling under invoice. The closest was $100 over invoice. But still not under. My girl bought hers for $265 over invoice. So to make you guys happy I will refund my bird dog to her. Now she spent $165 over invoice. Do you feel I still ripped her off?

Someone in here said I robbed her by using my service. First of all she didn't use my reverse auction technology. My team of programmers/web designers should have it finished by 1 June. So how could she use it. Only the dealer will have the opportunity to decide if they want to rob their own potential customer or not. I simply helped her on my own.

I have to hand it to you your 45 secs of fame would of paid off if they offered the service in my state! Try again!

Bill

bill100

driftracer

our misery with this guy?

It was interesting an entertaining, until we realized who he was and what he's doing - we'd like our topic back now.

bill100

So who am I? And what am I doing?

manamal

I bet that I could get invoice or lower at almost any honda dealer in the USA on an accord DX/LX/EX. Maybe not an EXV6+nav, but probably any other one. I suspect I could do it in 20 minutes. Except, I am not buying a car, and that would really make me inconsiderate.

Last time I did buy one, I was comparing an 02 Accord LX to an 02 Camry. Accord was 1500 under invoice including the rebate. I bought the Camry for 200 under invoice.

The sad thing is this woman is risking her life for the country, and you took advantage of her.

bill100

The next time I help someone buy a new Honda I will let you know. I am giving the birdie back to the girl so now she only paid $165 over Edmunds invoice.

Anyways like I said I will let you know so I can see if you can get an invoice deal in 20 mins in my area. As a matter of fact I know a buyer now but they haven't made up their mind yet if they want a Honda or Toyota. Up to the challenge?

I have risked my life alot longer for your country than she has. Yes she is my fellow troop but she is new to the service. Want to know how many times I was living in a tent in the middle of desert. She has not done that yet. She will get her chance IF she decides to stick with us. If she would of bought on her own she would of had no clue and she admits that.

Also for your info. She was approved for a 6.5 loan through a traditional bank. I redirected her to my credit union and saved her two extra points over the life of her loan.

So with that being said now I can honestly say we bought the car under invoice?

Still sure I took advantage?

Bill

butchbr73

bill100

Doesn't feel better to smile once in awhile? lol

butchbr73

the problem is I can't stop laughing.... at, well, I think we can all guess....

bill100

I have to agree with Drift. Kinda getting boring especially now since the dealers are dodging the bullet over a simple question. Lets liven it up alittle. You must admit this conversation has probably made a mark for the Edmunds history books.

I propose to start a new discussion title under Smart Shopper in either the negotiations area or the online shopping area about reverse auctions that all your board members can see without having to come in here with a bunch of dealer/salesman. I would like to know what the savvy car buyer thinks of the idea. Sure I had some comments on this board but it was only a hand full of buyers who responded.

Dealers/Salesman,

Want your topic back? Well don't follow me if this request is granted by Edmunds.

Bill

bill100

You have poor taste my friend. I don't think I have ever seen you before either.

719b

"I would like to know what the savvy car buyer thinks of the idea".
doesn't make a difference what they think if you can't get any dealerships to like your idea.

bill100

I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you probably forgot due to so many post. But if you go back and read you will soon learn I already have dealerships signed up!

Bill

butchbr73

butchbr73 "Reverse Auction" May 6, 2004 12:19am

have fun.

bill100

Go ahead and leave it in News and Review. Just adjust the title instead a bit...

Reverse auto auctions for new cars! Tell us what you think!

Something to that effect.

Bill

ramped

I drop in often when there is something of substance going on. For the life of me, after skimming through the last 300 posts, I still have no idea how you could help anyone buy a car, and the Accord episode pretty much confirmed that.

In any event, if my sarcastic remark offended, I apologize.

bowke28

you mean to say that if you spend your $10k on the car, then your payment will be $60 a month lower than if you lease with $0 down? talk about a no-brainer!

if its a short-term lease, you could use only $2k of it and have the same payment.

but i wouldnt do that. worst-case scenario, is that you can use your $10k to make payments from.

bowke28

go ahead ond go over to the other boards, dude. i will follow. i will protect the consumers there, who may be taken advantage of by you. with your help, they will be fleeced by $500 a car.

i cant beleive that you are arguing with isell on hondas! the guy works for a high-volume store and knows what his Xaction numbers are.

i also sold hondas for 2 years, and selling accords was always easy:

"sir, you can buy this for $X under invoice."

"ill take it!!!"

a deal like you set up would have been a windfall of money.

to the pros:

i almost forgot about the people that would show up at the low-bidder's store with the intention of continuing negotiations. i had that happen tuesday on an internet lead.

isellhondas

I don't think he "fleeced" his customer. I don't think that at all. She got a great deal on a great car.

Could she have bought it for a little less? Probably, but who cares? If she's content, that's what matters.

I just don't think he added any VALUE to her deal. She could have done as well without him.

Just like with any Auto Broker deal.

rroyce10

** ....... Just like with any Auto Broker deal **

                    BINGO ..!

                        Terry.

bowke28

i said that simply for effect. ;-)

jratcliffe

Out of curiousity, how much is the trunk money for the Accords right now? Looks to be about a grand, no? Carsdirect is quoting $23,333, or $1k below invoice, for the EX V6 AT Coupe w/o Navi, which is a comically good deal. That's about a grand less than I paid for my '02 back in 11/01.

bill100

You guys are incredible. Atleast Isell said she got a good deal. Everyone else thinks she lost half her paycheck.

As for value Isell I helped her by giving her a piece of mind. She did get some internet quotes before she contacted me and none of them were at invoice. Especially not under invoice! And again someone tell me what is more closer to the truth when it comes to invoice Edmunds or Carsdirect? Plus if you go back and read you will see how I saved her 2 full loan rate points off the life of her loan. The dealer was ready to sign her at 6.5! Now who would of been the one to take her money?

On top of it all I gave her the bird dog this morning as a matter of fact. She insisted I keep it for spending time with her but I didn't. I told her to keep it.

You guys want to know how many times I had to have a finance guy redo the forms because he tried to say my payment for ex... was $355 instead of what I had $348 on three different calculators.

Add that up over the life of a five or four year loan and see what that just cost you if you didn't catch it.

Now lets talk about if you want Gap insurance. I was at a dealership once and informed them that I could get Gap through my credit union for $125. I tried to get him to match it and he wouldn't even come close.

Bottom line is I did not rip her off in any way shape or form. She got a great deal and still no one has showed me any proof where I can get a better deal for the same car especially under invoice. Carsdirect didn't even offer a price under what they said was invoice. Can someone show this to me. Give me a dealership name! hmmm I wonder is it possible that you guys are telling me a story? Show me the money!

Show me how I could of saved my girl more money! Don't just yack about it. Lead me to a source where I can verify it.

Bill

719b

in the beginning you said you wanted to get opinions from sales pros about a business you plan to start. it turns out you have already made up your mind and want affirmation. you didn't get the positive response you expected and started to argue your cause.
my question to you is why are you here? you're not here for advice... you're mind is already made up. looks like you're trying to change minds of people in the business that feel you're business plan is a loser.
you claim to have dealers lined up... what you need to do is find shoppers that are interested.
if you find shoppers beating down your door, what do you care what anyone here thinks?
come back after you're successful and rub it in our faces.

bill100

I agree with you that the reverse auction topic in this board has had enough. I'm set on my theory and the dealers in here are set in theirs. But now the dealers in here have attacked me by telling me I ripped off my girl. But yet no one will give me a straight answer on HOW I ripped her off. No one will lead me to these great under invoice offers. Until we work this one out I am not going no where. I would like to know how I stripped her of anything. Everyone except for ISELL CLAIMS I did but they can't prove anything. So 719 you want to get rid of me then prove how I ripped her off? Show me some numbers and where I can verify them at.

Bill

isellhondas

She could have brought her dad, neighbor ar friend with a knowledge of the business and done as well.

Or, she could have spent some time in these forums, done her research and done the same thing.

At least you had the decency to refund her money.

For your level of "help" you should do this every time!

Like I suggested...keep your day job!

qbrozen

if it was as easy as dealers posting their best numbers somewhere publicly available, then this discussion wouldn't even be taking place because there would be no need to argue over pricing that is set in stone.

Yes, "your girl" could have gotten a better deal. Is there a way to prove that? No. Not easily, anyway. The same way you can't prove what "your girl" paid. Plenty of people have paid more and plenty have paid less. It doesn't matter. The fact is that shoppers are able to do so everyday without the aid of a broker (which has been said many times already here).