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Before airbags were mandatory Chrysler had airbags as an option in the early 80's. Well Chrylser spent something like $10 Million tooling up for airbag production and sold something like 10000 units out of all the millions of cars they produced. This great experiment cost Chrylser something like $10000 per car sold with an airbag. That was some good money back in the early 80's.
It's pretty much the same today, nobody will pay much for extra safety.
In any event, the feds should require side curtains and ABS as standard equipment on all models.
A lot of people would skip seat belts, front air bags and air pollution equipment if it wasn't mandated. And now, we absorb the cost without noticing.
We have those who seem to think a car is unsafe unless it has EVERY latest safety feature.
And the ones who don't care at all.
Not many in the middle.
Plus, consumers get lulled by the standards that are in place.
The Gov't test is a joke.
Also, neither the Gov't nor IIHS tests rollovers,or rear impacts.
IIHS tests rollover tendancy but they don't intentionally roll cars and SUV's.
The European NCAP tests are the best out there, although some of their criteria is going to be costly for manufacturers to meet.
I am leary about airbage and some of the newer devices as their requirement seems to me to more motivated politically than safety oriented. I would like to see a lot of empirical evidence presented before making a particular safety feature mandatory
Compared to the cars of the 60's, I believe that current vehicles are much safer.
I am a safety feature fan..I am willing to pony up the extra money. But some people don't care or are not willing to pay for them, which is also fine with me. I am very uncomfortable with things being mandated by people who are as inept and often factually blind as most government agencies.
I would like to see the cost per person saved by this side airbag mandate....I bet the cost per saved person is absurdly high.
History shows that without the government mandating some of these safety features, they might never be offered... and if they were, they would be cost prohibitive if sold in small volumes.
If you assume airbags are a good thing... then the only way they would be affordable for entry level cars, is to mandate them for every car... Yes, there is a cost, but it is much lower with the higher volumes than it would have been otherwise...
regards,
kyfdx
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I'm not generally into big government programs, but as far as making cars and trucks as safe as possible, that is money well spent in my opinion.
ramped...I agree making cars and trucks as safe as possible, is money well spent....but not everyone agrees. you mention ABS, which can be a valuable feature in certain situations...but they can also benefit others who the guy may prevent hitting...side airbags only benefit the people who opted for the option, not the other guy..
Our side airbag option sales run in the small percentage area...people just don't want to pay for them at all. If we had sales of side airbags that exceeded 40-50% I might be more inclined to agree with the mandate....but when 10-12% of the buyers are willing to pay.....
I would be agreeable to making side airbags mandatory on cars over a certain price level. We have already pushed to many people into used car because of entry level priced cars being too high.
also, the government never stops mandating...first its side airbags then its mandated moonroofs so consumers aren't forced to inhale that new car smell
The one thing though that hasn't been explicitly said here is:
By mandating a safety item, the production costs can be shared accross all the cars being producted. Therefore the unit cost of an installed safety item can come down quite a bit.
Nonetheless, if you think of the cummulative costs of all the mandated items in a car they still add up to alot of money.
"Willing to pay for it" is hard to define... Typically, car makers will bundle options or limit them to higher trim lines.
ABS is a case in point: On VWs it's standard without govt mandate in the fatherland, but optional here... for a lousy $300. In a Matrix, off the top of my head, ABS is a $450 option... in the Vibe, a $600 option.
At the end of the day, I would have liked ABS but bought what was on the lot... and after a harsh winter, I'd say I'm fine without it. But I would have paid $300-400 to get it, sure thing. $600, no.
And while we're at it, options prices are NOT about cost. Case in point, I read that because of the lower numbers, it costs hundreds more ($800?) to produce a stick shift Corolla than it does to build an automatic. The auto is a nearly $1k option. Engineers are wonderful. Marketers aren't.
-Mathias
You more than anyone are aware of the cost of adding side curtains to the Mazda 6 line. By the time you order the mandatory sport and security packages and moonroof, you are paying about $3,000 for the side curtains.
If that cost was more in line with what the side curtains actually cost, which I am guessing is a few hundred dollars, I think you would have a lot more takers.
Sorry to those who are bored silly by this topic. I'll leave it here for now. After all, still gotta find a ride
With the Japanese cars you have to pay a premium to get their safety features.
Some motor companies like Volvo and Mercedes Benz would still include the latest features because its part of their corporate ethos. Of course it gets built into the price of their vehicles.
BTW did anyone see the history Channel last night? Car crash testing, an hour long ad for Volvo.
2) Since when do we actually hold people responsible for their failure to use safety devices. In the few tort cases that I have sat through, I have yet to see a judge reduce an bodily injury judgment even when the harmed individual could have reduced his damages by buckling the seat belts.
3) With each generation of "safety devices", I believe that we are spending more for the devices and getting diminishing returns. Look at the basic changes that have been made that have reduced fatalities over the past forty years - collapsable steering columns, padded dash, stronger rood supports, three-point seat belts, etc.
Whenever you put yourself into a vehicle and propel yourself at 50 mph, you bear some risk of collision whether it be due to inattention, a deer, a drunk driver, or the like.
Last night, I had dinner with a fellow CPA who justified his purchase of a Porsche Boxster for "safety" purposes. He said that after a long day at work, it was safer to drive the Boxster than his Crown Vic as the latter put him to sleep while driving.
I have another question (seems like all I've been doing lately is researching cars!). Adding in ABS and side airbags in the Corolla also nets me a moonroof, which I'm unwilling to pay for. (The dealers tell me that all the LE's they're finding w/ ABS and side airbags have a moonroof). I'm thinking abt going w/ a Nissan Sentra, either a 2.5S or a 1.8S w/ side airbags and ABS (depending on how much of a difference I feel when I drive them). Do you think I'm better off just getting a Corolla LE w/o the safety features or going w/ the more loaded Sentra 2.5S or maybe even the 1.8S (assuming I can get the 2.5S and the Corolla LE for abt the same price, the 2.5S maybe $1K cheaper)? I don't know anything abt the Sentra except what I've read on the boards abt their loud engine and their poor front side crash rating. Or, horrors, should I be expanding my search to include other cars (I didn't like how the Civic drove as compared to the Corolla, and still no ABS on the LX, the EX is too expensive for me)?
That was a mouthful. Thanks so much for any help.
"Always buy and drive what YOU like"
It's hard to put so much emphasis on other people's opinions, test, etc... If you drive the Sentra and like the way it drives, feels, smells, looks, etc... better than the Corolla, I think you found your car (or any other car). I don't think you can go wrong with either one those, though. There are certain areas of a car that are more important to you than others, sounds like safety may be toward the top of your list, for some its gas mileage, performance, comfort, stereo, some like that automatic espresso maker in the back seat, everyone is different.... List 'em out, compare the areas of importance to you and you'll get a better feel
Anyway, what is even more interesting is that since I was a month behind (but catching up quick) so many post have been deleted. I must have missed out on even more fun!
Alangl, I know you say you are not going to buy anything, but reading this thread since it started, you have had at least six cars in what, 3 years? I always like to see what new idea you have reguarding a car purchase.
While traveling abroad, I rented a Renault Megane diesel six speed manual....fun little car. The engine was so quiet for a diesel and the gas gauge never moved off of full in about 77 kilometers so that's about 50 miles, right?
My question to car dealers is.... have you heard if the "SMART" car (brainchild between Swatch and Mercedes)is going to be imported?
Thanks, Mark
Finally: having driven a rental Altima, I can speculate that a 2.5 engine in a Sentra is a huge overkill.
the 2.5S sentra HAS 165 hp and costs less than a comparable corolla with 40 HP less.
It's an interesting trade off for insurers, the more safety equipment the less injury, at least theoretically, and therefore the less payouts to injured plaintiffs. Of course you have a corresponding increase in the payouts for repairs, i.e. airbags are expensive items to fix, about $3K or so I think.
Now, we have much more to think about. Is this a CNG vehicle? Propane? Is it a hybrid? How do I disconnect electric power from a hybrid?
How many airbags does the vehicle have? Have any or all of them fired? If not, how do I ensure that they won't?
As most of you know, being in front of an airbag when it deploys is not the place to be. When I'm working to rescue someone who's trapped in a car, I have to be extremely careful to ensure that all explosive devices are disarmed. These can include:
1. Airbags.
2. Roll-over protection in some high-end cars.
3. Self-tensioning seat belts.
Clearly, airbags are here to stay, and the evidence certainly seems to suggest that they can save the lives of the vehicle's occupants. There is the potential, however, that these same life saving devices can take away lives of those who come to rescue you.
It is our job to be prepared for any and all situations, and we work hard to ensure that we are. Modern safety devices simply make that job more complex, time consuming, and dangerous.
i would submit that, if those devices werent there, you might not have anyone to save in the first place.
The legislation was written to protect an unbelted 5'8" 175lb man from impacting the dash.
Needless to say a child or small woman was at risk under this standard.
The automakers did object to this standard but were overridden.
Now the standard has been adjusted to protect that same man with his seatbelt on. The new "dual stage" airbag.
By and large safety systems do work. The most effective is the seatbelt.
I visited another dealership today, and got them sorta close to my price range. However, I didn't really like the way I was being treated (they kept on trying to force me into another car when I said the price I was interested in paying, and based on my research, I think I named a reasonable price.) I just didn't feel comfortable, and thought I could get better treatment elsewhere, so I left. I e-mailed another dealership with the offer I was looking for (which I think I could have gotten from the 1st dealer had I not felt too uneasy), but I told him I had already gotten that offer. Now dealer 2 is saying he might be willing to beat that offer, but could I send him the offer from dealer 1? I'm not sure what to do. The original dealer and I weren't that far from that #, but I didn't actually get that offer. I would have stayed, but I've heard on these boards that if I feel uncomfortable, then more tricks are probably on the way, so just leave.
Thanks for any advice.
First of all, if you ever feel uncomfortable when dealing with a seller of goods, it's time to leave.
Now, you weren't truthful with that second dealer and I'm sure he knows it. He knows you won't be able to produce a copy of a non-existant "offer".
It's always best to be truthful.
Is it ok to send the quote onto Dealer #2, though? It's not revealing too much, is it?
Thanks!
Offers like this get shopped every time and many a deal has been lost for 50.00.
So much for relationship selling.
I do disagree that relationship selling is not working in this case, though. As price-conscientious as I am (b/c I'm just a student, very limited budget), I would not move from dealer #2 to dealer #1 (the 1 I didn't feel that comfortable w/)for $50- I stated earlier that if dealer #2 could just match dealer #1, I would be fine w/ it. And b/c I didn't feel all that awesome abt dealer #1, I wouldn't even waste time going back to their dealership w/o some documentation of their quote, so that I know they're somewhat serious, and not trying to get me in the door. I do understand, though, that it must be frustrating to work hard on a car deal only to lose it for a minor amount.
I appreciate all the help this board has given me. Lots of useful and interesting insight.
I keep getting phone calls from sales reps asking me for information. I give it to them, they say they'll get back, and I never hear from them.
I guess you are better off just emailing the dealers directly.
On the bright side, visits to five dealers this weekend brought four positive experiences and one big clunker. And, unfortunately, the clunker had almost exactly the car I have been looking for. Wouldn't it figure.
the trade in basically shot.. I found even more damage after the car trade was returned... and no I don't have the best credit, but I do make a decent amount of change and I've been working to pay off back bills. I actually have two car notes... so my credit can't be THAT bad...
not necessarily...
the worst beacon score i ever saw was a guy that made $70k a year, had 2 car notes, and was OVERextended...his score was 423. (of course he missed some payments too...)
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
You obviously handle your money well, but lenders look at someone currently employed with 23 (for example) years on the job in a different light than someone on a "fixed income" - old school mentality, but their mentality just the same.
Of course, if you're looking at a vehicle with incentive financing and you qualify either way, it won't make a difference.
but for peace of mind, i would buy before you retire.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Learned Friends:
I wash my car every six months, whether it needs it or not. So yesterday I took my monochrome silver '04 Vibe to the car wash, invested a few bucks, and really went after it with the high-pressure soap&water wand.
When I was done, I had peeled several pieces of paint off the cladding, ranging in size from tiny to quarter size. The plastic underneath is pitch black. Not pretty.
In retrospect, what was I thinking? Of course the paint ain't gonna stick to the tupperware the way it sticks to the metal... but I'm still pretty steamed... they might have told me about this, no?
To put everything right, worst case, requires replacement of the pass rear door molding and the trim pieces below the rocker panels, both sides. Probably many $100 and less than $1k, so it's not the end of the world.
What think the professionals? Does Pontiac owe me something or should I have known not to use the DIY wash??? I can take pictures if it helps.
TIA,
-Mathias
Unfortunately, you have a bad factory paint application and you will need to get back with your dealer .. high pressure hoses won't blow the paint off, most dealers have a 2500 psi (or better) pressure hose for the detailing of their vehicles and they use them about 1,296,754,907 times a week and experience -0- problems ~ all except for the lot guy that falls asleep with the wand in his hand for about an hour .....
Terry
I agree that the wand shouldn't do any damage to the cladding. It is now time to put all the good advice your hours (and hours) of Town Hall sufing into action. Just be careful who's advice you take (try not to threaten legal action agianst GM for at least the first 5 minutes).
You can also probably touch up or repaint, depending on the piece and size of the chip, and whether you are paying for it yourself.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
heh heh....just stirring the pot, but a real possibility.