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  • bill100bill100 Member Posts: 175
    Did you read before you went off on your tantrum?

    I said...

    Now if Drift has the inside scoop to what a dealer actually paid for the unit he's interested in now that would be a different story.

    If your getting supplier pricing wouldn't you consider this to be the insider scoop of some sorts? I would!

    The average American (which is not you) does not have this luxury and they must rely on comparison shopping in order to "KNOW" if there getting the best deal or not. What don't you understand about what I am saying here? I can't be any clearer for you than that. Its really quite simple!

    Bill
  • butchbr73butchbr73 Member Posts: 325
    Dear Mr Broker,
    we all appreciate your tenacity and genuine eagerness about your venture into "brokering" automobile deals... but you're beating your head against the wall, chasing your tail, etc.... with us... you should be selling your "broker" idea to the people it counts most to get your venture off the ground, consumers and dealers in your area... and don't come back and say "its already taken care of, we got them all on-board", etc.. if you think that, you haven't begun to learn about "business" yet, welcome to the first day of class.

    you're wasting time here, and if I had my money invested in this venture, I wouldn't be a very happy camper at this point and time....
  • bowke28bowke28 Member Posts: 2,185
    "Another thing why would he believe any car dealer that he is getting the best price on a new car?"

    because I gave him the price, and i have no need to lie about it.

    NOW ive had it. bill, its been fun toying with you these last couple weeks, but the fun is over when you call me a liar. ive been all over these boards and, whether people agree with me or not, i tell the truth without hesitation.

    drift is a good personal friend of mine, and your inference that i would lie to ANYONE, let alone a FRIEND, offends me to my core.

    HOSTS...bill has provided us with plenty of laughs until now, when he insults peoples' integrity directly. one of us will be leaving soon. i hope you make the right call.
  • mney6mney6 Member Posts: 116
    So now I shop and get the best price,the best trade,the best interest rate.
    I still will spend more FOR ANYTHING when I look at the quality of the people that work in that business.
    I don't mind spending 2 or 300 dollars more for the peace of mind that they will take care of me if something goes wrong.
    Retail is a people business and their are good ones and bad ones.
    I will always reward the good ones.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    One thing that our broker friend has forgotten. ...and it stands between failure and success. Dealers have all the cars. Without the cars to sell the broker/middleman has nothing. If there isnt a big chunk of something in it for the dealer, the dealers will totally dismiss him and his idea's.......so far that has been wildly proven here.

    The dealer has at risk, millions of dollars in a business, inventory and overhead... the website has a few hundred, maybe a few thousand dollars at risk...the way bill100 has set this up he gets most of the profit and the dealer gets to pay a fee to sell a car at or near invoice. well, big whooptee-doo....If bill100 wants to guarantee me a certain number of sales per month (20+ per month) and back that up if the numbers don't exist, then I might be willing to talk further.
  • bill100bill100 Member Posts: 175
    I apologize if you feel like I offended you. If you and Drift are friends well then good. But again I will say as a "NORMAL" car buyer who doesn't know you as a "CLOSE FRIEND" I wouldn't take your words as 100% gold. Why because I know your trying to maximize your profit. My goal as a buyer would be to minimize your profit. I would go straight after hard facts. I would want to prove it for myself by comparing other price quotes from your competitors. That's all I meant by it. Plain and simple!

    Bill
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,659
    These guys are just jealous, because they didn't think of it first.

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  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    "IT" was thought of about 15 years ago and ran out of useful life about 3 years later.

    Bill - the problem was that you "assumed" incorrectly, then told me I didn't have a clue. That's the part I don't like.

    Your continual inference that if I don't understand you, which is difficult, or agree with you, which is impossible, I must be stupid or clueless is very insulting.
  • bowke28bowke28 Member Posts: 2,185
    you dont have to take my words as 100% gold. how about ford motor company? toyota? honda?

    supplier pricing is available if you know a ford employee, and between these deals and a/z plan (employee) pricing, they constitute over 90% of our business.

    also, with supplier pricing, it is printed on the invoice, and non-negotiable. if we change the price, we lose our priveleges, and over 90% of the business.

    besides...no car salesman says "this is THE best price."

    they say "this is OUR best price."
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    ..... ** Again I am talking from an owner's point of view. Regardless how I get business wether it be from referrals, repeats, reverse auctions, free quotes services ect ect I am not going to care as long as its bringing business through my door and I am profiting from it **

    ==============================================

                   You know, I was going to let this one roll by, but after 50 some posts this has gone from the sublime to the absurd - And back again ...

                    Bill, you must get a lot of nose bleeds from being so high in the tree's .. the owners point of view .?? .. your kidding, or your doing some Really Good Med's -or- you don't Even have a clue of what goes on in the car biz .!

                    Based on "your" view as an "owner" you wouldn't make it past the first month they checked your floorplan, if you lasted that long .... dealers, jewelers , Mcdonalds, Best Buys, Ace hardware survives on a profit and a profit is the amount of money that's left over (net, net) after the lights, gas, air conditioning , payrolls, workmans comp, health insurance, parts storage, water bills, paper, computers, property insurance, liability insurance, 401k's, property taxes, payroll taxes, administrative people, lot damage, vehicle damage, floorplan and a big fat mortgage bill, plus a ton of other things including commissions and not including that $30,000 a month in advertising ....

                  No dealer, meaning Zippo, meaning less than one can survive on selling the cheapest vehicles in his city, county, state whatever, especially trying to make $100+ on an extra 10 units a month .. it's not the extra $1,000 a dealer might make, it's the COST to make that extra $1,000 - where are you from, Tibet.??

                    I was at a dealers meeting last week and one of my close friends is struggling, not because he's a bad person or sells a bad product, it's because of "Balloon Heads" like You .. after looking at his books for the last 2 months and *especially* his last 2 weeks he turned $476,000 in inventory to "net" $8,300 only after "store cost" .. his friggin' floorplan cost him $2,450, his Ad cost was $3,800 and I won't even go into the rest - he's going backwards, in a hurry.!

                       The point is, you don't have the vaguest idea - not even close to what it COSTS to run a store, your not even in the Galaxy .... your going to drop $100,000+ to maybe make $1,000 when it costs you $2,300 ...? .. like I said about 150 posts ago, run don't walk to the nearest Kirby vacuum cleaner store and get a job, thats the only way you will ever clean up ~ your not even funny nor even almost entertaining, your just downright Sad.!

                      Let's "ALL" just move on here ....

                               Terry :)
  • bowke28bowke28 Member Posts: 2,185
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Thank you. Excellent job of *trying* to explain the real world so someone who probably won't listen.

    Our fax machine wastes, literally, REAMS of paper every month as it overflows with the latest and greatest ways to increase our business.
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    "get rich quick" when they invent a "fax spam filter"....
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    in here all of a sudden...
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    God Bless you Sir,

    Bill is TRULY clueless.
  • akanglakangl Member Posts: 3,282
    Thank you Terry.....I knew I loved you for some reason :-)
  • bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    You always have to have the last word, don't you?

    Terry wants you all to "move on". However, when good old Bill comes back with a reply, I bet Terry will be there with a comeback.

    You all would like to move on, but you won't let Bill have the last word, so you keep responding to his posts. What a bunch of suckers you are. I think it is hilarious.
  • rampedramped Member Posts: 358
    It's Memorial Day. Big car sales advertised everywhere.

    But, I almost feel like a sucker buying a new car now, knowing that in just a couple of months the end-of-year clearance sales will begin.

    My question is, are dealers motivated to make great deals now, or is it better to wait until the 05s are on the ground?

    Also, is it time to annoint Terry the title of Edmunds' Cornerstone emeritus? :<)
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    dealers are always motivated to make sales...the car makers can really add to the motivation with special incentives to hit objectives. But as usual, the really 'hot' stuff is rarely included.

    The year end sales have become somewhat confusing....new models are often introduced all year and not in the fall, like in the past.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,350
    I agree that it seems like the "big sales" are going on year round. It did used to be simpler when you could wait for late summer, knowing the new models were coming out soon. Heck, stores have clearance sales before Christmas now, not even waiting to see what sells normally!

    If you want something in high supply/low demand, you can get a deal now. If you want the hot ticket (Sienna? anything else), if you wait too long, you may miss out (or get stuck with the options/colors no one else wanted).

    Some cars, like the '04 Odyssey, have great deals going on now (lease and buy), since the '05s will be out in a few months (new design). Will the deals get better? Maybe, but then again, they may run out of units, and the prices could go up!

    Anyway, if you need a car, and are comfortable with the current deals, buy it. It beats walking.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • bill100bill100 Member Posts: 175
    If you use the "WHOLE CAR BUYING CONCEPT", almost anytime is a good time to get a good deal on a car. But stick is right it all depends on supply and demand! Plus stay out of the dealership when their busy if you insist on negotiating one on one instead of through the internet. As a dealer why would I want to sell you a car for peanuts when I have three more people waiting outside to negotiate with.

    Why I would wait until later...

    Gas prices are driving in a steady stream of customers looking to trade in their SUV's for "SOME" gas efficient "CAR" makes/models. Once gas prices go down I feel you might stand a chance on getting a better deal even if it is Memorial Day Weekend.

    Now if your looking to buy an SUV, NOW is the time to buy with Gas prices being so high. Dealers in my area are practically giving them away. Best discounts I have seen in a long time.

    Bill
  • sameshimasameshima Member Posts: 5
    Could someone answer this question? At what point does a new car at a dealership accumulate enough miles driven for whatever reason so that it is now considered a demo and no longer brand new? Thanks.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Deals are probably as good now as they will be later due to inventory levels. Better selection now too.

    Sameeshima...as long as a new car hasn't been sold to someone it's "new". I know we don't let our demos hit 6000 miles because Honda won't finance them as new after that.
  • bill100bill100 Member Posts: 175
    Isell is absolutely right as long as the dealership hasn't sold it its new. Another way you can look at it to as long as the car hasn't been "tagged by the state" the car is considered new. From what I read all the top websites tells you to stay away from these units. Alot of abuse "can happen" when car dealership employees are driving them around. Personally if you want to find a great used car or truck, go to a military Defense Reutilization Marketing Office sale. Or most of us call it DRMO sales. All military bases have these sales once or twice a month. Usually you can find about 5 units with excellent maintence records and very very low miles and they sell them for next to nothing. The Air Force takes extremely good care of their inventory. Now you can't be picky lol. The usual color you will find is Blue! :)

    Bill
  • sameshimasameshima Member Posts: 5
    Is there a threshold (100, 500, 1000 mi.) where a car is now a demo, and should there be a discount for those miles above that threshold?
  • jasmith52jasmith52 Member Posts: 462
    It Depends on What Is - Is
    That's a Clinton Quote

    I don't consider a car with close to 6000 miles to be "New". A demo is not a new car to me regardless of if it's been licensed or not.

    I guess my mother's 2001 Honda Accord is still new cause it only has 5400 miles on it.

    My definition of a new car is
    1) smells like a new car
    2) has less than about 12 miles on it
    3) Meticulously clean
    4) has a protective plastic cover over the radio

    When you lease a car they charge 15-20 cents a mile (or so) for excess mileage. In my opinion if your additional discount for your "NEW" car isn't at least this much then you are being ripped.
  • bill100bill100 Member Posts: 175
    When I typed...

    Isell is absolutely right as long as the dealership hasn't sold it its new. Another way you can look at it to as long as the car hasn't been "tagged by the state" the car is considered new.

    I meant that a car dealership and the state see's it as new.

    As a car buyer I agree with Jasmith 100%. If I am going to buy new I want "BRAND NEW". Forget buying any demo. In my opinion the savings are not that substantial not to mention now your into how ever many miles on your manufacture warranty. If you buy a demo take that into consideration as well.

    Bill
  • bill100bill100 Member Posts: 175
    A "demo car" is one used by the dealership as a demonstrator to potential buyers. Often, dealership personnel will use demo cars as personal transportation.

    A "program car" is a former rental or other fleet vehicle that was purchased at auction by the dealership. Both are more likely to have been abused than a brand-new car or a used car offered for sale by a private owner.
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    that a guy will ALL THAT experience had to look up the definition of a demo and a program car on Edmunds.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,350
    No real reason a demo (customer or someone at the dealership driving) should have been treated any differently than any other used car. That's all they are, used cars, they just haven't been titled yet.

    A few years ago, I was looking at Acura TLs through the internet dept. of a large dealer. They were quoting $400 over invoice for brand new, and $600 under for a salesman's demo. I almost got the demo, because it was the only one left in the color I wanted. Met the guy driving it, just normal commuting like anyone else would do.

    IIRC, it had about 3,000 miles on it (in 2 months or so), so it was discounted about $.30/mile.

    A fuzzier area is when a car was used for demo drives, and has 1,2,300 miles, but might still be in the plastic. Or, it came as a dealer trade, and piled up a few hundred miles that way.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • mitzijmitzij Member Posts: 613
    I had a customer come in yesterday wanting her driver's airbag disconnected. She has a letter from the government giving her permission. (She is older and quite short) My SM says 'NO WAY', too much liability involved disconnecting airbags.

     My question is Where can I send this lady? She's a good customer, I want to help, but we can't do the work.

    I've run this by the ServiceGM forum and those guys all say 'don't do it' but they don't tell me who can or will.
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    as a service manager, I flat out refused to even converse about discopnnecting airbags - I don't ever want my name, or the dealership's linked into some "he said, she said" legal argument.

    I know you want to help, but this is one of those deals where "I'm not at liberty to discuss this with you" was my only acceptable answer.
  • windsorwindsor Member Posts: 12
    Here's what I went through today, if anybody knows what is going on here and has any recommendations, it would be greatly appreciated. I recently leased a 2004.5 Volvo S40. The dealership leased me one with the premium package, and the climate package, bringing my monthly payment to 280, and my $$$ due at signing at 3600 + a $540 trade in value on my old car. I ended up trading in my old car because they came back to me and said my credit rating was not tier 1 (as I expected because I had ran my fico score two weeks prior). Anyhow, I bited, and offered a trade in, and thus still got 280 a month. Two days later, I get called back to the dealership and they are now saying that they couldn't get my loan approved at the rate first quoted, and that my lease payments would go up ten dollars. Again, I was surprised as I had ran my own credit on myfico.com only two weeks prior. Anyhow, the dealership said my score through experian was 645, so when I got home I ran my score on myfico.com again, and it is actually 693, just as I expected. I'm not sure what the dealership is trying to do, but if anybody has advice, please let me know.
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    you're right, as usual. In the Air Force, we always referred to them as "barracks lawyers", whatever the subject they were preaching, be it how to get out of getting in trouble or how to buy a new car.

    I'm sorry, but I have a hard time taking legal advice (or car buying advice) from someone with absolutely NO training or education in the area.

    Perfect example - for 6 months in 1989, I was the Non-Commissioned Officer in Charge (NCOIC) of Correctional Custody. I ran a rehabilitative program where punishment was administered by unit commanders - instead of kicking you out with a BCD, they'd send you to me for a 7-30 day "tune up" (depending on the offense and the commander's rank). If that didn't work, then you were whacked.

    One young guy, very smart-mouthed (exactly what had gotten him into my facility with one less stripe), started talking back to me while I gave him the Gunnery Sgt Hartman introduction.

    He decided to respond with the notion that, after being told to do pushups, that I (Me) wasn't authorized to use physical work as a form of punishment. He refused to do pushups, surely putting me in my place.

    Of course, this rule didn't exist, but some barracks lawyer told him what was up and he went into my place loaded for bear...

    I asked if he was going to follow my order - he smiled and said "no", obviously trusting his barracks buddy.

    His barracks buddy got him court martialed - he was transferred from my place to base detention and left with NO stripes and a BCD - poor guy can't even get a management spot at Mickey D's.

    What does this have to do with buying a car? A LOT - be careful who you trust to give you suggestions and advice - you may not end up in jail, but you may feel like you've been there, if you know what I mean....
  • sameshimasameshima Member Posts: 5
    Could someone answer this question? At what point does a new car at a dealership accumulate enough miles driven for whatever reason so that it is now considered a demo and no longer brand new? Thanks.
  • akanglakangl Member Posts: 3,282
    Thanks for the reminder, haven't been near a car lot in weeks. Am trying very hard to stay away. Now if I could stay away from the tattoo and bike shops I'd be doing really good. ;-)
  • volvomaxvolvomax Member Posts: 5,238
    There is no set mileage.
    With Volvo a demo has to be registered with the motor company and the clock starts on the warranty. Car could have 50 miles, its still a demo.

    While we are on the subject, very few dealers give out demos anymore. Usually only to senior salespeople or management. These cars are not abused, they are merchandise. Bill's unfounded tales aside, rarely does a demo meet with any mishap. If your comfortable with the deal on one they, along with "program" cars make a fine choice.
  • bowke28bowke28 Member Posts: 2,185
    whenever the buyer considers it too much to be new.

    a buyer could accept a car with 5000 miles, or turn one down with 50. it all depends on the deal.
  • bill100bill100 Member Posts: 175
    So according to Bowke the answer is "NO" there is no magic number.

    Now you see how they beat around the bush?

    :)

    Bill
  • mitzijmitzij Member Posts: 613
    Volvomax gave a very good answer.
  • mney6mney6 Member Posts: 116
    A vehicle that is at a dealership that has never been titled and has a MSO is still considered new with the manufacturer and the state.
    We do not use new cars as demo's because there was never enough discount to justify to the customer that they were saving money.
    If I was a consumer I would consider anything over 1000 miles as a demo.
    Different manufacturers have set limit on miles before the warranty starts.
    If the car has 300 miles on it your warranty will be 36300.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,659
    "If the car has 300 miles on it your warranty will be 36300"

    This is almost never the case.... The warranty starts at ZERO, not when you take delivery of the car. If you are leasing it for 36K miles, then you get 36K from the mileage at time of delivery.. but, the warranty is still gone at 36K.

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • bowke28bowke28 Member Posts: 2,185
    on the warranty is the time. it starts the DATE you take delivery, but the mileage starts at zero.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Member Posts: 1,207
    Not in Ontario. Obviously it may be that the system is different in Canada but if you buy a new vehicle with 1000km then your warranty would run out at 61000km instead of 60000km. A vehicle in Ontario may no longer be sold as new after it has 6000km. After that mileage it also needs a safety certificate when it is sold.
  • paulhuangpaulhuang Member Posts: 62
    Hi,
    I have a question for the pros here. Does the salesperson who sells the car get a cut of the F&I profits?

    Assuming the interest rate and loan period is the same as my pre-arranged financing, I wouldn't mind using the dealership financing. Dealership and salesperson makes a little more money and it doesn't adversely affect me at all (no payment difference).

    Thank you,
    Paul
  • mitzijmitzij Member Posts: 613
    On GM vehicles, warranty starts at mileage when first titled and goes to 36k+ delivery miles. The VISS shows this to all GM dealers. The customer has to be aware of this, however, because many shops assume 36k is the cutoff, when it's not quite the case. Service contracts (aka extended warranties) are a whole 'nother matter.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    so just tell them if they can't do the deal as agreed, then you don't want the car. simple.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    The answer to your question varies per state....here in my state a car is still technically "new" until it has been registered with the state motor vehicle and the manufacturers certificate of origin is turned into a title.....year and miles play no role.

    I don't have any idea what the rules are in most other states....this is why your question was not specifically answered, not car dealer talk like unhelpful bill100 implied.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    .... ** a car is still technically "new" until it has been registered with the state motor vehicle and the manufacturers certificate of origin is turned into a title **

                      Bingo.!

                Once the MSO (birth certificate) gets punched and it turns into a title, it becomes a used vehicle ......

                           Terry.
  • jasmith52jasmith52 Member Posts: 462
    I respectfully disagree with that definition of new.

    New means - unused. Not untitled.

    But we've beat this thing to death here.
This discussion has been closed.