Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

bretfraz

As long as consumers mentally equate buying cars to buying stuff like underwear and curtain rods at Target, they'll always be getting themselves messed up by the process.

Looks like the Remar Sutton's of the world will continue to get rich.

landru2

that Target doesn't offer at least a 3 year warranty on that underwear?

tincup47

Doesn't Target accept trade-ins on the underwear?

suvshopper4

Yeah, but they low-ball you on them.

frag235

mustangron

CarMan@Edmunds

Thanks for the additional information, mustangron. General Motors just introduced their May 2002 incentives program, through which they are providing $2,000 consumer cash or 1.9% to 3.9% special financing on the 2002 Chevrolet Tahoe.

Car_man
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ajb723

Looked at a Jeep Liberty to replace my Cherokee, which is at lease end. Dealer offered a demo with 200 miles on it. How much of a discount is reasonable to expect. I thought his 15cents per mile was inadequate.
I was also disappointed in the pricing. Since the car's MSRP is less than my 3 year old Cherokee Laredo I was shocked that the lease price was about the same. And that included the $2000 rebate currently offered by Chrysler. Seems the interest rate is higher and the acquisition fee is an unconscionable $850.

abtseller

I wouldn't expect a discount at all, but that's just me. Its easy for new cars on the lot to rack up nearly that many with just test drives.

Ed

isellhondas

200 miles is nothing!

stever

I'm pretty sure ajb723 meant 2,000 miles.

ajb723 "Jeep Liberty" May 5, 2002 8:31pm

Steve
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CarMan@Edmunds

Unfortunately, the lease programs that are available on many vehicles today are not nearly attractive as they were several years ago. This is especially true with SUVs. The main reason for this is that most banks, especially manufacturers captive finance companies, were overestimating vehicle's residual values. This enabled them to provide very attractive lease payments on their products, but their finance arms took a major beating when these vehicles were not worth nearly as much money as they had anticipated when their lessees turned them back in. Most banks have now realigned their residual values downward in an effort to prevent similar financial losses in the future. In fact, many independent banks have significantly cut back on their automotive leasing business or have dropped out of the market altogether. This is why many consumers who leased vehicles several years ago are very disappointed when they try to lease similar vehicles in today's market. Of course, there certainly are many vehicles that still have very attractive lease programs on them, but one just has to look a little more carefully for these deals than they did in the past. This is especially true with domestic products and SUVs.

As far as the acquisition fee goes, Chrysler Financial currently charges all of its lessees a base lease acquisition fee of $550. Dealerships are allowed to mark this base fee up to bake additional profit into deals. If you are trying to lease this truck through Chrysler Financial and you were quoted an acquisition fee of $850, that is most likely what is happening.

Of course, the size of the discount that is necessary to justify the purchase of a demo is a personal opinion, but unfortunately in my opinion most dealerships are not willing to provide large enough discounts on demo vehicles to justify purchasing what essentially is a low mileage used vehicle over a brand new one.

Car_man
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2099

Here is what at least one major bank in this area (Ohio) has done which results in increased lease "acquisition" fees. Since they lost so much money due to vehicles not being worth the residual at turn-in, this bank now purchases its own "gap" insurance on any lease it writes. The bank buys a policy that states that if the vehicle isn't worth the residual at turn-in, the insurance company will pay the bank the difference. Guess who pays for this "insurance", yep you guessed it!!

ajb723

yes- sorry for the error - it was 2000 miles- not 200

mustangron

I talked to my dealer's sales manager and he offered to sell me a 2002 Z71 with three options at invoice. He had to order it. He said it would be invoice plus advertizing fees minus whatever rebate was available at the time. Great. Edmunds says that my invoice for the options (Block Heater, Lift Gate, 6 Way Heated seats) plus destination is $35193. I add $400 for ADV, about $200 for Doc and License and $2237 tax @6.25% to come out to $38K. Less rebate is $36K.

Now I've heard Edmunds doesn't give the real base invoice, etc cause they are third party. So I looked at carsdirect.com and priced the same. Their price came out $1K higher, but they dont show the base invoice like Edmunds. The options and advertizing is the same. What is the difference. It seems to me the regional base price a dealer pays for a vehicle should be the same. How could there be that much disparity. When I called carsdirect the customer service rep said we add the rebate into the price. I didn't understand what he was talking about.

The customer rebate is between me and the manufacturer. The invoice that the dealer gets when he orders a car should have what he ordered, and the rebate shouldn't even be considered. I should get the price he paid minus the rebate if I choose.

Am I all wet or is there something I don't understand. What should his invoice look like and my sales contract look like.

I don't want to get snaked out of $2,000 by the dealer adding it to invoice price and then subtracting it.

landru2

So you had the sales manager order this truck but you didn't ask him what the price would be? That would probably be the place to start. All your speculation about invoices and rebates are all to do with Edmunds and Carsdirect and really don't matter since everyone knows that when 3rd parties don't agree on prices, the lowest one is the right one. ;^)

mustangron

What does matter is that I will get the thing for invoice, plus ad fees, doc fees, ttl. What I'm asking is what is invoice. Is it what the dealer paid the manufacturer for the vehicle and other stuff the manufacturer charges the dealer or is it more BS thrown in that the dealer wants to add. And also, is the rebate added to the price of invoice and then subtracted to make me happy that I got $2K off of it. or is it illegal to do that. I know that the base price of a texas made 2002 Z71 should be the same for all dealers, right?

mustangron

as my invoice with options included, he got his GM's approval for that price and ordered it.

peaceofmindapa

I will tell you what I do for my customers. GO to the dealership at night or early in the morning and copy down every charge the is ON THE MSRP STICKER, any other sticker is a dealer sticker and can be disregarded. It should say your vehicle's base price, price for options and destination-giving you a total Suggested Retail Price. Take that home and go to kbb.com edmunds and carsdirect. Punch in your vehicle in those and compare the prices (Carsdirect will just give you an idea of the aaverage selling price of the vehicle but I use it just for extra comparison). Now add the "INVOICE" price for your vehicle and options and destination. Now trash that paper that has the Retail prices on it. It is not needed anymore. Now if there are any incentives or rebates, subtract that from the invoice price.
For example:
Base Price - $XXXX + options $XXXX + destination $XXXX - rebate$XXXX. There is your invoice price. Of course there is the holdback but that is "sacred money" and we don't mess with that.
As far as those "ADV" & "doc" fees--those are "CRAP" fees and need not be paid. Call your local county building and ask them what are ALL the taxes that need to be paid by you to purchase a vehicle....city, county, state..and how much for your tag.
THAT IS ALL YOU OWE.
NOW you decide how much more profit you want the dealership to make. It does not matter where they put it how they name it, or what ever..it is profit for them. Add it up this way....

base (invoice)
+ options (invoice)
+ destination (invoice)
+ taxes (call courthouse motor vehicle)
+ tag ("" "" "")
+ title ("" "" ")
+ what you want to give the dealership profit
- the rebate if there is one
- any downpayment you may have
==========equals what you should pay.

Think about all this decide what you want to pay and then pick up the phone. Call the dealership and give them your offer...OUT THE DOOR PRICE.
DON'T CRACK. Remember your # and stick to it. When you get with in a 100 dollars or less it is up to you to accept the deal. If you get there and the #'s change, enjoy the ride home...in your old car. Do not play any games. This is a $40,000.00 transaction and should be handled like one..PROFESSIONALLY.
If you are trading a vehicle in that is a whole new game and my fingers are getting tired. I hope I have helped a little. Drop a line if you have any questions. I hope I have helped a little. It is much easier to help in person.. Take Care..Ken

landru2

"It really doesn't matter what the price is"

Pretty much says it all.

abtseller

The invoice will be a preprinted sheet from the manufacturer. It really isn't rocket science once you see it to determine if you're getting a fair deal or not.

From the looks of it, you're getting an LT Z71? Heated seats pretty much means that it is an LT, right? I have access to the numbers here, and if you'll give me the specs on what you're buying, I can give you a close approximation of the invoice price.

It seems that you realize that the doc fees, manufacturer advertising fees, etc, are part of life (unlike our professional "consultant") so it sounds like you're off to a good start.

Ed

dillydill

A couple of years ago I got a GM Card thinking I would purchase a new truck or sport utility from GM. To make a long story short I am not going to use the $1500 I have earned on the card. Is there a way to trade the points/$ to a friend or family member? What are my options if any?
Thanks for the help.

Dillydill

mustangron

I've oredered a 2002 Tahoe Z71. I ordered the AN3 option that is heated leather seat. Most dealers say they can't upgrade from A93, but I called Chevy and all the web sites have that as an upgrade option on the Z71 1SL package except there is a 10% constraint or something like that from the manufacturer, but you can order.

Most sites say invoice $2,688 for 1SL, $275 for AN3, 30 Engine Block Heater, $215 Liftgate, for a total invoice of $35,193. The sales manager agreed to this and is the husband of my commander's secretary, so I feel confident he is on the up and up.

I'm in the Air Force and leaving about 2 weeks after my Z71 comes in and I won't have another car. If I walk in and there are different prices than we agreed on I really don't have much negotiating room, since I am at their mercey. He said $35,193 + ADV + TTL - Rebate. When we write up the sales contract, is that all that should be there. If they spring dealer prep cleaning, checking fluids, test drive (which is supposed to be handled by destination charge (or whatever the MSRP sticker says in small print I can't remember.) If they install an alarm, etc. without me ordering that how do I get them to take it off the contract without causing a scene? I mean I agreed to a price that we ordered and don't want frivolous stuff added when it arrives, etc.

Also he said I would get whatever rebate was in effect at the time. It is $2,000 now. I never see anything about dealer incentives. Should I ask politely if there is any dealer cash incentives and if we can share because it may be offered when my vehicle is delivered?

I just want to do the right thing and know what I should see on the sales contract that I'm signing and paying for. I will be financing through my credit union, so that should not be an issue.

gracevw

The lease on my 1999 Grand Am is up in a couple of months and I am interested in a 36mo. lease of a New Beetle. I've been doing the requisite research, so I have a good idea what I think is a fair price...or at least what I can afford! I've been looking around the boards and have been unable to find out what Beetles have been going for or what the current money factor is. Does anyone know if the current APR deals are applicable toward a lease? (ie 2.9% for 36mo. buy, etc.) I really have no idea just how popular Beetles are in my area (upstate NY) or what people have been willing to pay.

Thanks!
grace

abtseller

My book doesn't show the seats available, but I'm not the one that orders them, so take that for what its worth. Don't trust the websites, either, they're known to be wrong.

Anyhow, on the Z71 Tahoe, The invoice should be right around $35,500 (my invoice includes the ADV), so your numbers are really close. There are no dealer incentives at the moment on the Tahoe, but if there are when it is delivered, you may or may not get some of that action. Its also true that you can only get the rebate that applies at the time of delivery.

Ordered units don't get "port installed" stuff like alarms, etc, put on them per the norm. You shouldn't have any issues there, but just tell the guy that you don't want anything extra, and that you won't pay anything extra.

He is being honest with you on the pricing, you're doing well.

Ed

isellhondas

I didn't understand either...he doesn't care what the price is, only that he can buy it for invoice?

What did we miss?

timadams

gracevw, having just traded in my wife's Beetle, my impression is that the market is somewhat soft for Beetles now. When we bought hers in late 1999, most dealers had between 0 and 2 on their lots, and NO used ones. Now, most dealers have 4 to 9 new ones plus several used ones baking in the sun. There is simply much more supply.

And on the demand end, all those buyers who thought Bugs were too cool bought them in 1999, 2000 and 2001, so the demand side of the curve is down.

What's this mean regarding price? My wife paid $50 under MRSP in 1999. I would think you could get a new Bug for not much over invoice now.

gracevw

Thanks for the info! That's what I was hoping to hear of course! In my area there a only two VW dealers - one of which only sells VWs and allegedly has about 30 on the lot. I'm used to pitting the dealers against each other, but I don't think it's going to work in this case, so I wanted to go in with a fair price from the get-go and spare everyone the headache! Of course, the other concern is the financing (lease) end of it.

gracevw

mustangron

I meant I really dont care if invoice is $35,200 or $36,000. I just want to know what the real invoice cost of a Z71 in Texas with the 3 options I ordered is. I did mention in message #1220 that I negotiated $35,193 with the SM when he ordered it. abtseller has given me great help without the chiding thank you.

landru2

Thanks for the clarification.

bornyesterday

In short, I need to know if I am free from this car deal I made.

I fell off a turnip truck and ended up at a car dealership 2 weeks ago. I drove off with a new car and a horrifying car deal..but.....the financing they were arranging fell thru..altho they won't come right out and say it. They want me to come in and sign another deal with the same horrifying upcharges and finance fees that they slid in on the original, and sign with a finance co. that I had applied for on my own previously..at a higher rate. Naturally I don't want to.

Am I stuck for anything..any deals.. or any downpayment money I gave.. extended warrranties i agreed on at first.. or anything?? Can I return the car and walk away with my bank account looking like this never happened???

I need some quick advice since I said I'd bring up the car tomorrow (they don't want me to return it, by the way) the salesman got all nervous when offered gladly. If i have time I'd like to repost and tell the story of this car deal and get your feedback on it. It was messy and deceiving. (and still is) But in the meantime..gotta know if I'm bound to any prior signatures I did since we appear to have no financing in force for the car right now. Thanks!

abtseller

not another "I made a deal and now I want to back out of it" post...

How come people suddenly become "enlightened" AFTER they sign on the dotted line, then they look to all these websites that have been around forever and decide that they all of a sudden got screwed?

To answer the question, I'm not sure if you can back out of the contract or not, it depends on which papers need to be re-signed.

Ed

protege_fan

I think the important part of his question is this:
I drove off with a new car and a horrifying car deal..but.....the financing they were arranging fell thru...They want me to come in and sign another deal with the same horrifying upcharges and finance fees that they slid in on the original, and sign with a finance co. that I had applied for on my own previously..at a higher rate.

Since he originally signed the deal at a particular finance rate and pending financing approval, is he still bound by the contract since the financing fell through?

yaman

well if the dealer offers you similiar or better financing than you can't back out If worse than you can.That would be my guess

5speeder

I've found a car I like and am thinking of making an offer. It's an end of production year '02, being shipped to the US as we speak. It's not expected to arrive at the delaer's lot until July. It's well equipped but considered a stripper by the standards of this manufacturer (low demand, right?). It is also a 5 speed (even lower demand). Low demand nothwithstanding, the dealer tells me it is "rare" because it's the last one like it coming and there really are no others like it within a 300 mile radius. He wants approx. $1150 over invoice (TMV is $793 over invoice). He says if I give him a $500 refundable deposit, it's mine at that price. There is good financing available thru this month, which may or may not be extended to when I'd take delivery--I'd be taking a chance.

I'm weighing whether I should pull the trigger on this one or just wait and order an '03 (with an expected delivery of late summer. I'd probably have to forgo the good financing and would have to wait another month or two, but would get exactly what I want and it would be the new model year. How likely is it that the TMV would be the same or lower at the beginning of the model year on an identical car I'd order?

What about the $500 returnable deposit scenario? Is this arrangement customary? (I've always bought my cars off the lot) How "returnable" are these? The salesman told me that if when the '02 comes in and I can't get the good financing rate or I decided not to take it for any other reason, he'd return the $500, no problem. Seems awful one-sided to me: I can walk away any time for any reason and get my deposit back, but if someone comes in before I take delivery and offers them more money than I did, they supposedly couldn't/wouldn't sell it to them. What's wrong with this picture?

CarMan@Edmunds

Hi gracevw. I would be more than happy to answer any questions that you have about leasing in general or about leasing a Volkswagen Beetle specifically if you pay me a visit over on the Finance, Warranty, and Insurance Message Board. See you there.

Car_man
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stickguy

It is common for the deposit to be refundable. They are getting the car regardless, the $500 is just a good faith gesture to give you first dibs. If you don't end up wanting it, they just put it on the lot and sell it to the next guy. Just make sure the sales agreement specifies it is refundable.

Could be a different story if you special ordered a weird combo that would otherwise be impossible to sell; that might not be refundable (to make up what they are likely to lose to unload it).

stickguy

I'm not in the biz, but others have posted this problem, usually from the other POV. That is, they want the car, and the dealer is threatening to take it back unless they come in to sign a new deal. If you signed a contract with specific terms, and they didn't come through, you can't be forced to accept new terms.

I know the sales guys have a term for the practice of rolling the car before getting financing approval (spot delivery?), and I thought that having the deal rejected by the lender was the pitfall.

Did you tell the dealer you are bringing the car back, and have your deposit (or trade) ready for you to swap back? I swear I remember someone posting about doing this, and it taking the dealer a while to retrieve his trade in from the auction or some such place.

And please stay off turnip trucks in the future. It's not safe.

rroyce10

..... This will all depend on the dealer, how many miles are on the vehicle and you own credit.

If you have got shot out of the saddle, because of a credit problem .. miled up the vehicle, then all of a sudden became a genius and don't want the vehicle .... then, I gotta think the dealer is going to keep some downstroke money, because you want too "unwind" the deal.

Tread carefully ....

Terry.

force98

I expressed interest in a Saab 9-5 Aero here in Albuquerque, and the dealership told me Aero's are unavailable throughout the US. He also said I will most likely have to wait for a 2003 if I want one. Any of you have any other information?

bretfraz

Hmmm.....well, I was at my dealer today picking up my SE after its service. I clearly recall at least 4 Aero sedans on the lot; most of them Steel Grey. Saw one silver one with 17" BBS 2-piece wheels and a 5 speed (damn! that's a bad [non-permissible content removed]-looking car). Also had three 9-3 Viggen's. Didn't see any Aero wagons, tho.

Jim Ellis Saab, Chamblee, GA.

rroyce10

...... Ghee whiz, I must see 10/12 a month at the auctions .. I'm sure they are all over the Carolina's - and based on the auction reports there all over CA.

But, give Bretfraz's guy a call and see what happens ...


Good luck ...

Terry.

Kirstie_H

One major daily newspaper is looking for folks who drive 2002 or 2003 yellow or orange cars, and another major daily newspaper is looking for folks who successfully or unsuccessfully attempted to negotiate the purchase prices of their vehicles at the end of their lease terms. If you care to share your stories on either or both of these topics, please send an e-mail containing a short summary of your experience and your contact information to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Tuesday, May 14.

Thanks much,

Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

force98

I take it when you see 10-12 at the auctions you're talking about used 9-5 Aeros? I'm in the market for a brand new one.

rroyce10

..... The reference meant, that if you are seeing alot at the block .. the dealers are cutting em' from the herd...

The translation: they are coooold.

Terry.

scully6

I am shopping for a new car for the first time in a looong time. I have been doing a lot of research and know exactly what I want to buy, a 2002 Honda Odyssey. Now I need to find it at a fair price, which is a real trick with that model. I know that there are several numbers involved: 1) the MSRP, 2) the dealer invoice and 3) actual dealer cost. Am I correct in thinking that dealer invoice is NOT the same thing as actual dealer cost? Also, I know that the longer a car sits on the lot, the more it costs the dealer, because the dealer financed it. So, to make a long question longer, if I offered dealer invoice+destination+ttl and added in a profit margin for the dealer that still came in below MSRP, what are my chances? What IS considered a reasonable profit margin for a dealer? Thanks.

im_brentwood

Well, as a dealer, this isn't a cut and dried thing.

See, its' a supply and demand thing. On odysseys, right now, they still seem to be at MSRP +++. What I would do is to ask Raybear (He works for Priceline) over in the priceline topic. He seems to sell a ton of them and will give you an idea of the market. I do know that the Alabama plant is now starting to come online.

From what I am seeing at the auctions.. these should start to come down quick. If I were you I'd wait about 3-4 months and save $1,500.

Right now, as I understand, $500 off MSRP is the deal of a lifetime. Want an Accord? Imsure you can be real close to invoice.

Bill

isellhondas

If you are looking for an "invoice up" deal, you are on the wrong car. Don't frustrate yourself that way.

What you may think is a "fair" profit to a dealer probably won't buy an Odyssey now or in the near future.

The dealer can sell every one he can get his hands on quickly. No need to cheap sell a car like this.

Great cars, though!

landru2

and he says they have a waiting list of over 40 people on the Odyssey. Some of these people won't see their car for months. MSRP is the price on these. Just the way it is up here. Your area may be different.

im_brentwood

Same deal here in Orlando at friends of mine at Honda stores in NJ... Big waiting lists and MSRP or more.

But, that being said, An Odyssey EX at MSRP still is VERY attractive to a DaimlerChrysler Van at Invoice, and they also have the advantage of better resale value ($5-8,000 better than a DC Van over 3 years) than anything else in their class. Plus they're nice to drive. Thankfully Honda priced them very competitively, so even though they arent discounted, they are a great value. Sort of like Acura TLs.

Bill