Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

kdhspyder

Good point. I find Edmunds to be much more in line with real world auction values and therefore closer to the market value of any trade. Terry?

OTOH the word in our Used Car Dept is that KBB 'hates' Toyotas so their values are often several thousand 'lower' than the auction/edmunds values. This has it's benefits also. It brings the trader down off the ceiling so to speak in his estimation of the value of his trade. It's easier to get him to see the value of the real market value. Terry?

mjones2

Missed out on those great end of the year deals . My buddy got married in Vegas last weekend in Dec. When does the next round of great incentives and deep discounts happen? Or do I have to wait till the end of 2006???

fredvh

What kind of vehicle are you looking for?

mark156

mjones2, I would think if you could find a 2005 vehicle still on the lot that the deal on them would be excellent now that we have moved into 2006.

Mark

mjones2

Nothing in particular. I just wanted to know if there is another slow time during the year when the dealers offer big discounts. I'm not looking for a 2005 model. I want a 2006 or 2007. I sort of remember just after the local auto show that some brands were offering incentives and such. I can wait till year end if I have to. Was just wondering about auto pricing cycles.

rroyce10

.... It all depends on the vehicle ....

Sometimes Edmunds gets close, sometimes Kbb is in the right zipcode, sometimes neither ... NADA is for a Retail asking price and what the banks use for a loan value ..... Edmunds seems to get a little "hinky" sometimes on the imports also ... that 03 Allroad Audi is a good example .. their trade "appraiser" hits it at $22,500 ... there's not a dealer between Boston and Bangladesh that would put that kind of $$ in it, especially with 45k ...... it's a $20 grand car ~ and $21 would flat Kill it ..



Terry.

jmonroe

Reply to 15392.

... his car needs brakes since we recomended them the last time he had it in so another 700 or so dollars off.

britsh_rover,

Is this a typo, $700 for a brake job?

If it isn't this explains why I do this work myself. I can't remember ever paying more than $250 and that included quality pads and new rotors for the front. In the case of rear drum brakes this would include, the drum brakes with new drums and new rear drum hardware kit. As you know, not all brake jobs require the replacement of rotors or drums, so in this case the cost would be even less.

So far, (40 plus years of doing this), I have never, ever, had a problem stopping.

Sometimes you just have to learn how to do this stuff, so you have enough to eat regularly.

jmonroe

mark156

Jmonroe, a $700 brake job sounds reasonable to me. My 2002 Mercedes ML500, that I traded recently, needed new brakes and rotors. The dealer wanted about $1,200 and I had an independent shop do it for $1,100 that also included tire rotation and balance. :sick:

$250 for a brake job? You must be doing it yourself and not replacing all the parts and/or it's not an SUV. :confuse:

Mark

im_brentwood

If I get them at wholesale cost, OEM pads and rotors for my 740iL will run me close to $500 all around.

$700 is nothing.. a Lamborghini Murcielago with Ceramic brakes can run into the thousands and thousands.. per axle.. in parts.

sbell4

yea, I was going to get a Lamborghini.......but I found out I had to use premium fuel in it...deal breaker for me with today's gas prices.

volvomax

And if I had to guess, I'd say you are the Fleet Manager at Powell.

Good guess.

mellis

http://www.ayereuropeanauto.com/database/detail.php?id=152&

kbt

Well, no used car dealer worth his salt is going to take a $500 profit on a nice car. $250 would just pay for the detail and inspection at most stores. If you are buying a certified car the shop bill is usually closer to $1000. The you have the dent guy, the interior guy, the paint guy, some spare keys, it adds up pretty quickly.

Just outta curiosity ... I need to trade in a used car I just bought. It has maybe 40 miles on it since purchase and is actually in better condition (hood professionally repainted where it had a bad repair on a big chip.)

I got a good deal on it and could do private sale and come out pretty well, I think, but, frankly, I'm lazy. Also, I think I read somewhere they my state is a tax-on-the-difference for trade in (where can I look that up?), so if that's true, then that factor may well make it worthwile to do the trade. But I'm wondering how much a hit I'll take for "reconditioning" since it's pretty much "as was" when it was reconditioned the first time.

rroyce10

... You need to move over to: "Real-World Trade-In Values" .. read a few posts, then drop a complete description, location, condition, color, etc, etc .... lets see how lazy you really are ...

Terry.

isellhondas

We are talking Land Rover here. You have no idea how expensive these are to work on!

Same with any European car. When they need brakes, they usually need rotors too.

Heck, at 90.00 per hour and more for labor, ANY car is expensive to have fixed. Some are MUCH worse than others!

kbt

You need to move over to: "Real-World Trade-In Values" .. read a few posts, then drop a complete description, location, condition, color, etc, etc .... lets see how lazy you really are ...

It's there — look forward to your reply.

rroyce10

... Your right .. there ain't no $200 brakes on a Land Rover, now that I think about it, there's no $200 anything on a Land Rover ..l.o.l....

Terry.

rroyce10

..... $29,900 ...? ... Yeeeow.!

If ~ the dealer did the 60k, dropped new Miks all away around it and put new stoppers in it .. then he might maybe have the $23ish figure in it, maaaybe ... like Land Rovers, these things have a huuuuuge retail book .. it's the gettin' part that's tuff ... I bet $25 and some change will get it home, lots of miles, even for Maine .... nice color though.



Terry

jmonroe

Reply to 15402

To:

Mark and others who responded to my post # 15401

I thought I mentioned that the $250 price was for domestic cars and a 2002 Explorer but I didn't. I can understand why I've been questioned about the $250 number, especially for the high end cars.

Now that my mind is going, I don't even want to think about what's next.

I might even have to start thinking about giving up this kind of work. After all, I could forget to install a doo-flicky or what's worse, the all important thing-a-ma-bob.

wanna be mechanic,

jmonroe

ksccts

Land Rover, smchand rover...buy some pads and change them yourself. Easy job and almost no tools are needed. I paid $80 for my last set of front and rear pads for my DII and changed them both myself in under an hour. Rotors aren't much more difficult.

jmonroe

Reply to 15415

ksccts,

Oh no, another guy who thinks like me. This might become contagious.

I didn't mention that the reason I started doing this stuff years and years ago was because I was tired of being told by various shops (especially dealers) 'you need this and this and ......' and being young (at the time) I believed these tales only to find out not everything that I was charged for was actually done. To make matters even worse the workmanship was less that what you should expect from so called 'professionals'. Over the years I've learned I can screw things up almost as good as the pros do and I don't charge myself nearly as much.

Live and learn,

jmonroe

imidazol97

>almost as good as the pros do

And by doing it yourself you know it was done right rather than in a hurry to beat book time. And you can redo it if you decide there was something you could have improved on.

isellhondas

And if you screw it up, you can always get it towed to a shop with the right equipment who knows what they are doing.

This is embarrassing but it happens all of the time.

bcb1

I've been thinkin' about parting with my reliable, dependable '00 Yukon that I bought new (it's a 2wd) and paying cash for a 02 or 03 Tahoe Z71 4wd. Thing is...I don't see the '02 or '03 that have 3rd row seats in the Z71. Most of the regular Tahoes and Yuks have them.

So is the Z71's value affected by not having a 3rd row seat...are they less desirable, and therefore cheaper? Or should I bite the bullet, borrow a couple thousand and buy an '04 model that has the 3rd row seats.

FWIW, I use the 3rd row seats in my Yukon about once a year, when we go on vacation. otherwise they sit in the garage and gather dust...so I doubt I'd miss em.

imidazol97

Yes, I'm sure it does.

It also works the other way, but what many don't learn (I've had a few experiences) is when to stay whoa and when to keep going. My skill set is above average for doing it myself. But I've broken some things that weren't broken when I started! Just more to fix!

isellhondas

Yeah, me too.

On today's cars, I've about given up.

british_rover

I was busy for the whole weekend so if this has already been answered then sorry.

If I failed to mention this I am sorry but this was on a Land Rover Discovery and as anyone who has worked on european cars or land rovers in general knows they are expensive to work on. For Land Rovers the rotors wear along with the pads so they must be replaced at the same time. Now if you buy non land rover rotors that are thicker then you can resurface them but that is not recomended since then you have much heavier thicker rotors on the car.

So we are talking very expensive parts and a very expensive labor rate of 92 dollars an hour that service charges sales. Remember Service, sales and parts are all seperate organizations at the dealership and so we don't really get much of a discount from service to do work on our used or new vehicles. They cut us like 10% off of the parts price or something like that and a small discount on the labor but not much.

jlawrence01

My only concern about DIY repairs is that if you make one mistake - just one - you have wiped out a lifetime of savings (that you got from doing it yourself)...

The person who doesn't get the oil filter on correctly, the person who does the electrical work on their home who forgets to shut off the breakers, etc.

isellhondas

A guy brought his Civic into our shop. He was a bit red-faced. Seems he didn't like our quote to replace his oxygen sensor and decided to pick up a cheapie and install it himself.

Well, those suckers are in there TIGHT and he managed to round it off by using the wrong socket.

We had to remove the exhaust manifold to get it out!

Then, when we installed the aftermarket sensor he provided, we found out it was defective.

im_brentwood

Mellis,

I know a dealer with a 2004 Gallardo with 7500 miles.. they want $169,995 for it.

Still a $135k wholesale car, still a $149,995 retail asking price with a sales # in the mid 140s.

Don't even get me started on the private party with the 02 Murcielago with more paintwork than an arts and crafts fair that the guy thinks is worth $200k............

Where were we again?

steine13

Some years ago, I was working on one of my cars, and I had my behind on the driver's seat.. and my feet against the headliner. While I'm monkeying around under the dashboard, an electrical part the size of a golf ball snaps off and heads straight for my left eye... I wear glasses.

That day I learned that (i) it is better to be lucky than smart, that (ii) German glasses made with REAL glass are extremely thin in the center: 0.6 mm and (iii) that one needs to take every safety precaution one would take if OSHA was watching.

The worst things I've done to myself since then have been blisters on my hand.

jl is right: One good [non-permissible content removed] and all your savings are gone.

Where I disagree is that I'm less likely, not more, to put the oil filter on wrong or to cross-thread any bolts. It's my car, see, so I'm careful... the problem with the professionals is that usually the oil changes are left to the doofus of the outfit, and then watch out.

-Mathias
(who now wears plastic lenses most of the time, like everyone else.)

imidazol97

Through the years I've heard enough and known enough people with "oil problem failures" after quicky lube shop visits that they can't pin on them but.... you know.
I'll do my own. I am scientific enough to check my work after I'm done. I always double check for the oil seal that should come off with the filter to make sure it's on the old filter and I feel and visually check the place where the filter screws on to be sure that extra seal is not there... two oil seals together leak bad!

racer63

Count me among the few that still try to do their own work. After 20 years of learning about working on cars by doing, there isn't much I don't have the skill to accomplish, have acquired most of the tools to perform the work, but the killer is time, which I don't have anymore.

What got me into it like most was that I was a broke college student, and saw what I was getting charged to do fundamentally simple tasks by both the corner gas station and dealerships. Also getting upsold on a lot of stupid stuff as well.

In the interim I have done everything brake-like, front drive clutches, intake and exhaust manifolds and heads, electrical, and as an autocrosser, more springs, shocks and struts than imaginable. With the current Celica, I've had the dampers in and out six (6) times, also using a few tricks that make the job significantly easier than how it is outlined in the shop manual.

These days though I pick and chose my nasty jobs. Before selling the former family truckster Exploder last year, it had a leaky steering rack, a lit ABS light, and needed pads and rotors. One look at how the rack had to go through the subframe, along with the rusty fittings on the high pressure hoses, made me shake my head no. So off to the independent garage it went, as they were about $300 cheaper than the dealer. While it was there, I had them pull the code on the ABS. Came up as the rear speed sensor, a common Ford truck ailment, and a bad pump (another $800!). I decided to try changing the sensor myself, and pull the electrical connector to it and see if the light went dark. Sure did. The brakes themselves were entertaining too, as I had to take my gear puller, fabricate some longer arms out of some steel plate I had, and bite the rotors while working off the axle end poking through the hub. All while heating the rotor/hub joint, since these were floating rotors that had rusted so bad they effectively welded themselves to the hubs. On one of them, I actually broke a piece of rotor off where the puller arm was attached. So while the truck cost me about $1000 to fix altogether, it was better than the $2000-2500 it would have been had been worked on at the dealer.

In my area dealer service staff is highly variable in skill and knowledge. I've found the smaller family owned stores much better than the mega-stores, similiar to how the sales staffs are.

jmonroe

Reply to 15424

My only concern about DIY repairs is that if you make one mistake - just one - you have wiped out a lifetime of savings (that you got from doing it yourself)...

jlawrence01

If this kind of thinking doesn't play right into the hands of the repair industry I don't know what does!!!

Let's face it, just because you want to save money and do things yourself doesn't me that you can jump right in on the more difficult jobs right-off-the-bat. You have to start out slow and hopefully after watching and helping others. You would be amazed how what you learn on one job helps you do the next then the next then the .....

I've found that if you really want to do something (within reason) you can usually do it, if you are prepared. Being prepared definitely means you have to have the right tools. You acquire these tools job by job. I'm sure you have heard that the difference between the home handyman and the pros are the tools. Once you're willing to bite the bullet and buy the necessary tools for the job, you are well on your way to a quality job. Now, if you're the kind of guy who wants to do everything with a hammer, screwdriver and a pair of vise-grips you better have all your work done by somebody else.

As for not being able to put on an oil filter without cross-threading it, again, you should have your work contracted out.

Once you stop telling yourself you can't do something is when you will find out what you can do. Come to think of it, this can be applied to things other than car/home repairs.

C'mon, give it a try.

jmonroe

mikefm58

Let's see, took my '91 Isuzu Amigo in to the DEALER for an O2 sensor change, they ripped out half of the manifold. Had the tires rotated on a van, wheel almost fell off a few minutes later, loose lug nuts. My wife worked in a Monkey Wards and they had a habit of vehicles falling off the lift and also forgetting to put oil in on an oil change. And don't get me going on Jiffy Lube.

I'm with the last few posters who do DIY. Granted there are individuals who mess things up (Hey I even caused a double gasket on my Accord), but I trust my own work more than I do others. But I don't do more than basic maintenance items.

jlawrence01

jmonroe,

In my past life, I worked for a company that manufactures plumbing tools which gave me access to all types of equipment that professional plumbers use FREE. One day, I ran into the president of the company as I was heading home to meet Roto- Rooter as they were cleaning roots out of my drain pipes. My boss asked "why don't YOU do it yourself?" Simple, I could spend hours and obtain the information and apprentice for a while with all my plumbing friends and get the knowledge. However, I am not prepared to invest the time or the effort to get that knowledge. I am more than happy to pay the plumber (and keep MY hands clean) for his experience.

I once asked my brother who is an ASE certified mechanic to teach me how to change my oil. He laughed and told me to have it done professionally. Having the car on the lift with one of my experienced mechanic friends allows them to notice problems before they get really bad. Besides, my time is too limited to learn all that I know.

I do the things that I do well - prepare my taxes, financial planning, writing, etc. - and make some money on the side for my knowledge in these areas. I pay people to do those things - auto mechanics, plumbing, lawn mowing, ironing - that I either know nothing about, am completely bored doing or are cheaply procured.

No thanks.

jlawrence01

that one needs to take every safety precaution one would take if OSHA was watching.

I never thought eye protection was as critical as it is until recently. I saw a pair of goggles after they were hit by molted aluminum in a die casting operation.

mikefm58

" Having the car on the lift with one of my experienced mechanic friends allows them to notice problems before they get really bad "

In the infamous words of John McEnroe, you cannot be serious. Where I'm from, the rookies get the easy jobs like oil & filter changes, and wouldn't notice anything else even if it hit them in the head. You were making a good point until you said that.

jlawrence01

Where I'm from, the rookies get the easy jobs like oil & filter changes, and wouldn't notice anything else even if it hit them in the head.

I am DEAD serious.

That is why you go to a good independent shop where the principal is there is person. At the shop that I frequent, the owner always inspects the vehicles while they are on the lift. That way, he ensures that the folks do the work properly.

It is like the difference between going to H&R Block vs. a local CPA firm. If you have your return prepared at wither one, you returns are generally prepared by less experienced staff. The difference is that H&R Block lets the computer "check the return" with NO human review and therefore, GIGO. Most CPA firms have managers/partner review of junior staff work.

Smart practicioners have the review process to ensure the work is done properly as well as to identify additional work that may be done (i.e., break pads that are worn prior to rotor damage).

rroyce10

... **It is like the difference between going to H&R Block vs. a local CPA firm**

Excellent analogy ....

I'll never understand how someone will spend $20 or $40,000 on a vehicle then take it down to Bubba's Quick Lube and Barbeque to save $5 or $10 bucks ... stop and think about, the next oil change is in 4,000 miles(?) and for most drivers thats 3/4 months away .... it's kinda like price shoppin' Surgeons, they only have "one go at it" before there's a problem .l.o.l.. .. hmmm, this one charges $7,000 for hernia's, this one is in at $8,250, but the guy three counties away is in at $6,100, I think I'll go to him .. Not.!



Terry.

manamal

I am not really worried about making the expensive mistake. rather, I can pay the mechanic $80 to $100 dollars per hour to fix it, or I can fix it myself. The thing is, I make about $50/hr. And I know I will not be as efficient as the repair person. So, a two hour repair job will take me all day. Where is the cost savings (for me)?

exb0

jl is right: One good [non-permissible content removed] and all your savings are gone.

How about “One good [non-permissible content removed] and your life savings are gone.”?

My wife’s uncle was working underneath a car in his attached garage. The lamp that he was using blew up, the car caught on fire, and the house burnt down to the ground. He came out alright with a few painful burns. He’s OK now, and nobody else got hurt, however, he doesn’t work on cars anymore.

On the other hand, I know a girl who took her Saab 900 to Jiffy Lube. They drained transmission fluid and added 5 more quarts of engine oil. It her took two days to realize that mistake, in a middle of an Interstate.

You just can’t win.

albell

Two quotes come to mind aprops this discussion:

"A man's gotta know his limitations." - Thanks, Clint

"Trust, but verify." - Right on Ronnie.

kyfdx

Exactly..

I know what I'm good at... One of my areas of expertise is writing checks...

jasmith52

Well, changing your own oil isn't exactly rocket science. And I can inspect my own car.

Besides oil or other fluid leaks and maybe belt and hose wear what exactly is that ASE mechanic supposed to see ?

Was the transmission was put in backwards? Or maybe the oil pan is on the wrong side of the engine. Or the disconbobulator has overflowed !

I'll do my own inspection as I change my oil. I can then determine if there is anything that needs fixen'.

If I don't feel like doing it then I always have the option to pay a professional to do it.

1racefan

"Besides oil or other fluid leaks and maybe belt and hose wear what exactly is that ASE mechanic supposed to see ?"

I have had this benefit me 1 time that I can think of.

I got a coupon for an oil change in the mail from my dealer. It was something ridiculous, like a $5.95 oil change. I took the car by on my way home from work, and the tech noticed that the CV boots weren't on correctly (car was under warranty). They weren't leaking, and didn't look particularly strange, however when he showed me another car like mine, they were noticably different. They decided to order new CV boots all the way around, and they did install them a couple days later at no charge to me (and threw in a loaner car to boot).

What I am getting at is that I would have never suspected that there was anything incorrect with the CV boots. However, my guess is that a local oil and lube wouldn't have caught it either - this was just caught because the tech was familiar with that specific car. What I do now with our cars when they are under warranty is to take them to the dealer once a year or so for an oil change, and specifically ask to have the car inspected (whether or not that happens is another story).

british_rover

Ouch that is easy to do with older Saabs if you are not familar with them the engine and tranny are reversed in location from just about every other car in the world.

Saab realized this mistake and on some vehicles there is a little diecast arrow and the words "Engine Oil" or something similar pointing to the engine oil drain plug.

I have actually done this once when I ran a shop by accident but I caught my mistake before it caused any problems. I starting draining the wrong fluid but realized pretty much right away that I had screwed up and slammed the plug back in before I lost too much tranny fluid.

imidazol97

> I took the car by on my way home from work, and the tech noticed that the CV boots weren't on correctly (car was under warranty

With all due respect, shouldn't the dealer have noticed that during the PREDELIVERY inspection. They didn't do their job.

1racefan

"With all due respect, shouldn't the dealer have noticed that during the PREDELIVERY inspection. They didn't do their job."

I asked that question and was told something to the effect that it was entirely possible that it was overlooked, however it was also possible that they had shifted into a slightly different position while the car had been driven (either from having been installed incorrectly at the factory, or just because they were faulty to begin with). It was really one of those deals where you kind to have had to have seen it. They were slightly "out of position".

jeffyscott

I do the things that I do well - prepare my taxes, financial planning, writing, etc. - and make some money on the side for my knowledge in these areas. I pay people to do those things - auto mechanics, plumbing, lawn mowing, ironing - that I either know nothing about, am completely bored doing or are cheaply procured.

I'm with you. I'd add to that to me one of the main functions of money is to pay other people to do things I don't want to do. Working on cars is one of those things for me. I have enough money from my job that I no longer have to do things that I don't want to do (except go to the job )

I have done several appliance repairs myself, I have found that many of the repairs are simple and you hardly even get dirty doing them. I found doing this myself somewhat enjoyable...I've never felt that way about working on cars. In one appliance repair case I could not figure out the problem, so I called the repairman and he came over and figured it out in 2 minutes and had it fixed within an hour... and I didn't have to have the dryer towed in .

For those that enjoy working on cars, great!...go to it and enjoy yourselves...but don't expect that others feel the way you do about this type of work. I'd rather go to the shop and say "I have money, fix my car for me and I'll give you some of it".