Ok, booked out a car here, and then compared it to edmunds TMV, and the Nada price was more expensive. My question is: Because this NADAguides site is for consumers, do they actually provide the same info the dealers or the bank see in the little yellow book? Or is it like Kelly Blue Book, where it's representing what dealers are asking, not necessarily getting?
Rut Roh......that doesn't sound too good. Who would threaten you over a Kia??
Ok, Ford Windstall bashing time.....hehehe. I had a 96 that went through 3 transmissions, 2 front ends, an abs system, and I can't remember what else, in 3 months. It sat in the shop for 8 out of the 12 weeks I owned it. All I wanted the dealer to do was take it back and get me a different van. Didn't work that way though. To this day I'm not welcome at that dealer. Guess I was inconsiderate to actually want my vehicle to run and go.
Unfortunately, Zues is correct. He could present all his great data on Kia and nuts would come out of the woodwork saying - that can't be right, I have a Kia...blah, blah, blah.
....... It's hard to say Raybear, "sometimes" Edmunds is a little more accurate than Nada, sometimes KBB is a little more accurate than both of them, then sometimes not at all .. I check all 3 at sale time and I have yet to figure out their info patterns, the miles are the great decision maker here ..
Sometimes it all depends on the types of vehicles .. right now, it seems KBB is a little weak on imports trades .. I do agree on most of the Nada "asking" prices and loan values for the retail side ..
what is your take on current Hyundias? I have a friend looking at a Santa Fe. When i bring up the Hyundia and Kia reliability, he says how could they offer such a good warranty if their cars were breaking all of the time? He says that makes no financial sense to him. He agrees that Hyundias in the past were bad, but he thinks the last few years they have improved. He also says the latest CR gives the Santa Fe pretty good marks. I have not seen it though. Thanks for your input.
I like NADA for retail, Galves for wholesale. KBB retail is too high, I'm usually a lot less on used cars. KBB wholesale can be close, better than NADA trade value, if the individual is honest enough in their appraisal.
is that they are warranted by the tire manufacturer, not the car company. You might find yourself in a three way squabble between the dealer, the tire company and yourself. I have full faith in your ability to handle it.
..... Aaaah, let me guess .. you are from the NNorth East, New England area - yep, I pulled your profile, your from CT .. you guys love that Galves book.
I was at a few auctions up north a weeks or so ago, and I could always tell, all I would hear is "the prices are so crazy here, who would ever pay that" these guys would never even hit the starting bid .l.o.l.. meanwhile, the guys from Utah are buying everything laying loose ..
I know what the rule of 78 contract is, I've just never seen it employed, meaning my dealership never wrote a contract like that - I was only in the biz since '92.
akangl - The Kia guys didn't like the reality check I gave them from my first hand, recent knowledge of lemon law cases - they just can't understand why a manufacturer that puts out so few cars (in comparison) has so many problematic cars.
mass - While Hyundai HAS made significant improvements, bear in mind it's easy to bring up an "F" to a "D" when you were in school, right? Now, you don't go from a "D" to a "B+" or an "A" without even more significant effort, changing the way you think, act and work - completely realigning your life. Look at the differences, from your school experiences, in the lifestyle and attitude of an "A" student versus a "D" student.
The 100,000 mile warranty is actually a very unfortunate issue. They advertise it to increase sales and customer confidence - it only covers the powertrain rotating assemblies, so all the high dollar components like the Powertrain Control Module (PCM - which they go through like we go through socks), every $100 sensor on the car, all the electrical components, the fuel injection system, etc - are NOT covered. Plus, if you sell the car after 3 years of normal use (45-50K miles), the warranty is finished. Done.
Hyundai owners I have interviewed (many) have expressed their displeasure with the way the warranty was disclosed - "it's covered for 100,000 miles", only to find out when the lady's PCM shorted and the car stalled in traffic at 53,000 miles, not only did she buy a $486.00 PCM plus labor, she paid for towing, too. Some warranty.....
Ugh, PCM units are just wonderful. We had a 96 GMC K2500 6.5L TD a couple years ago. Bought it used with 49k on it in 99. All was well and good until I was sitting at the bus stop waiting for the bus (at 44 below zero) and the darn truck quit, took about 5 min to get it going again.
I was worried, but didn't think much of it....little did I know that would kick off a 4 month long battle. The truck would quit at random, in the driveway, at 65 mph on the highway, once in the middle of a logging road.
Back and forth to the dealer (it was still under the diesel warranty) couldn't duplicate the problem. Finally I got sooo frustrated I threw the keys at the service advisor (Joe, former diesel tech) and told him I wasn't going to pick it up until they figured it out. He drove it for a couple weeks and finally one day out of the blue it did it.
Turned out it was the PCM and it was covered under the diesel warranty. Between us and the warranty we pumped over $7000 into that truck including a new injection pump, all that in just 2 years and 40k.
Me thinks vehicles don't like me much, well, except my 94 Escort(103k)....paid $1500 for it 3 months ago, have put 4k on it and have yet to have a problem with it.
Ok, now that I have written a small novel I better get the kids to the bus stop. Its 36 below zero......I thought it was supposed to be spring!!
I didn't even know such a thing existed until I read it on our contract for our 94 Chevy truck. At least its a small loan, even if it is high interest.
...probably handle the pro Kia/Hyundai crowd...sometimes the truth hurts but it still remains the truth. As far as threatening e-mails...well, consider the source. How some folks can be so passionate about these veh is beyond me. My GTI has not been completely trouble free, but I would think that most can understand the passion and enjoyment the car can and does deliver (now if it just came in a four door).
I hear ya manamal...my GTI VR6 only has 174 horsies but the troque...oh the marvelous torque...! I'm pretty sure a Viggen would be a disaster waiting to happen...I'm just not that bold. Nice veh though...
...... What stun's me is, all this great press that Hyundai and even Kia are getting .. it really makes me lose any respect for ANY of the press sources that align these vehicles to Longevity, qualtity and endurance ..
Where do they come up with stuff -- So you have a warranty, that's great, unless you have to use 8/9 times in a year .. then the "love" seems to melt off in a hurry ..
There is just too many of these things at the auctions to deny longevity, there is just too many of these things with 6/8/10k at the block to even go into a discussion on quality, how could they, half of them don't run when they get there .. and when it comes to endurance, where do you go with that point, you can't ~ that's because the power windows have failed at 9k, the cruise quit working at 3k, and let's not forget that wonderful 6 way power seat, that kinda converts itself to a 2 way power seat when it want's to, as does the tranny .. But, then again you do have that wonderful warranty that's staring you in the face for the next 10 years, it's gonna have to, they have no resale .. that darn warranty is sure nice to have.
For some really comical reading, check out the topic that has the Escape vs. Forester vs. Sante Fe vs. Liberty (and a couple of others).
Go about a year back, there was a whole "Hung and Tung" show, as we called it, two Hyundai fans that were just hysterical. We never got too adversarial but it was LOL just about every day for a while there.
Even if you overlook reliability, they have serious work to do on the specific output of their engines (hp/liter) as well as put their whole fleet on a diet. They are generally far overweight and fuel efficiency is at the bottom of the class for almost all their models.
The thing that amazes me is the large number of people who post on edmunds (pro kia, hyundai, daewoo, etc..) who do research and come up with wildly different results than the rest of us...
There are alot of cars out there that no car person or anyone in their right mind would ever buy at any price....but yet these cars sell everyday. They sell to people who did alot of research and homework.
then when I read magazines like consuemr reports who implies that a Hyundai is in the same league as a Honda I just have to laugh.....
thanks for the info and comments, I will pass them on to my friend.
I was not talking about the powertrain warranty, I was thinking in regards to the 5 year bumper to bumper warranty. It should cover everything right? If I am correct BMW and MB are not even that long. Powertrian warranties are a crock, and I pay no attention to them, because just as you said, they do not cover the parts that break 99% of the time.
Personally I think the Hyundias are not bad looking cars and some even look good. I can understand why people would buy them, especially people with lower incomes. Take the Santa Fe for example. My friend points out that the LX model comes with every conceivable option for any car except a sunroof, standard.. Heated seats, cd changer, leather, power everything, auto A/C, ABS, disc brakes, V6, etc. You can probably pick one up close to invoice of around $22,000 and right now there is $1000 rebate or 0% for 60 months. Sounds like a lot of car for the money.
Of course like you said, if it breaks and is in the shop once a month, that is no bargain. But I can definately see where shoppers would consider Hyundia if they can get past the bad rep that they have for reliability. That is why I asked for you guys input, since you see them day in and out. I guess that was a resounding NO and I should diswayed him from buying one. He has looked at Tribute/Escape/CRV/Rav4/Forrester and for one reason or another does not like them. Any suggestions for a small to mid sized SUV that would be reliable and fully loaded for less than $23,000? Thanks again
Yeah, they have all but 2 Hyundais at average, the other 2 slightly better than average.
Hondas get two red dots, much better than average, and the rest are slightly better than average.
Overall Honda ends up well ahead. On page 85 they list Honda as 4th best overall with 32 problems per 100 vehicles, while Hyundai is just slightly above average with 53 problems per 100 vehicles.
The thing about the Hyundai warrenty is that the BOLD print giveth and the fine printeth taketh away!
For example : 5/60 is not what it seems. It is 2/24 Bumper to bumper with the remainder ONLY covering manufacturers defects. Who determines what and what is not a defect? The dealer of course. (More on this later)
For example : The 10/100 Powertrain has some rigorous maintinence that is needed to keep in effect. The Sante Fe requires you to inspect the tranny filter every 15K miles. To get to the filter you need to drop the pan. Doing this requires putting in new fluid and hell while you're in there you may as well replace the filter. Its cheap afterall. So basically every 15K looks like you're doing a tranny service.
Interestingly enough if you look at where JD powers ranks the Hyundai dealer network as a group you'll notice that they are below average in regards to customer satisfaction. Why? Dunno. I do know that these below average dealers will be the ones fixing any problems you might have. They are the ones determining what is and isn't a manufacturers defect...
...I don't pretend to know the entire market, but... If your buddy does not like or does not want to consider any of the models that you have listed, then the veh he DOES want does not exist based on your (or his) criteria and price point. Has he considered a wagon...?
but I have never seen any of them offer an alternative for getting good ACTUAL reliability information on cars. Why rag on something you can't beat. It just sounds like sour grapes when you do that. I wish someone would identify an alternative.
Suggest a Forester turbo, those arrive in June at the latest. The 3 top small SUVs in CR's list are CR-V, Forester, and RAV4, and it doesn't look like the other 2 are getting power upgrades any time soon.
$23k for a reliable mid-sizer? No way, you're lucky to get a well equipped compact for that much.
Allpar sounds a bit sore about previous poor ratings, to be honest. They also question things like sample size but leave out the fact that CR publishes a "N/A" rating when the sample size is too small. I see plenty of flaws in their logic, though it's nice to see someone playing devil's advocate.
Long-term, there is JD Power's Durability Study. They look at 5 year old vehicles. But the amount of data they publish is puny, I've only seen lists of winners for each category.
I think that data is much more useful than the 90 day IQ study. I could care less about the first 90 days, you're totally covered so it won't cost you anything anyway. I want to know a forecast for after the warranty expires.
afk, it is weird edmunds lists the hyundia warranty as 5/60...no mention of details you said....you are right the fine print is what kills you. I will make sure he knows about that if he does decide on hyundia.
vik..yeah I mentioned wagons to him, he is considering that, he would like the size of an suv, but wagon may give him more features for his limited budget.
But see where this is going? An uninformed buyer sees another SUV for $30,000 and it looks like the santa fe is the same or more car for $22,000. I can see where people that do not do alot of research would fall for that. Of course if you have not heard about Hyundia and Kia reliability being bad, you must have lived under a rock the last 10 years.
Go try a good ol' Legacy station wagon. They have an L/SE model with AWD, ABS, 2 moonroofs, 16" alloy rims, 4 wheel disc brakes, CD, cruise, keyless, and power everything for under $20k street price.
SUVs have higher margins because demand is high and the image allows it. Similarly, an LW300 is cheaper than a Vue and a Taurus wagon is cheaper than an Explorer.
but I haven't seen any indication that the Hyundai 5/60 warranty is substantially different than the competition. I've been throught the warranty docs with a fine toothed comb (before and after purchase) and I don't see anything resembling
<snip> For example : 5/60 is not what it seems. It is 2/24 Bumper to bumper with the remainder ONLY covering manufacturers defects. Who determines what and what is not a defect? The dealer of course. (More on this later)
For example : The 10/100 Powertrain has some rigorous maintinence that is needed to keep in effect. The Sante Fe requires you to inspect the tranny filter every 15K miles. To get to the filter you need to drop the pan. Doing this requires putting in new fluid and hell while you're in there you may as well replace the filter. Its cheap afterall. So basically every 15K looks like you're doing a tranny service. </snip>
Tranny service is required at 30k, not 15k. That I know for a fact, since my Santa Fe is at 32k miles and I'm following the severe service schedule. You ARE allowed to do your own maintenance and not void the warranty, as long as you use Hyundai approved parts (hint: using Dextron tranny fluid WILL likely blow your tranny and void the warranty). And the tranny filter on most models of Santa Fe (but not early ones like mine, darn it) is actually a spin on type that looks just like an oil filter.
Bottom line - I hate coming across like a Hyundai apologist. But they really do make some nice products (the Santa Fe is one) that make a compelling argument, as masspector has mentioned. If anyone is really interested, I can bring the warranty and service booklets in tomorrow and post some more info.
Zeus, other than the PCM (mine was replaced under recall) are there any major issues with the SF you've seen? I really am curious. Which seem to be the most problematic Hyun/Kias (I'm guessing the Sephia/Spectra).
Who said tranny service? I said FILTER INSPECTION every 15K. Hope you don't void your warrenty by not doing the proper inspections...
BTW I don't disagree with you. The wording is not much different than other manufacturers. Still I wonder where Hyundai dealers as a whole rank, since JD Powers only lists them as below average.
They've dropped even lower in my neck of the woods. I quoted an X automatic at just a bit over $20K today, and if he shops me in NY a dealer will beat me by the conveyance fee.
every 15k miles. I'll check my manual. I think the question here is the attitude of Hyundai USA regarding powertrain component coverage after 60k. Are they looking for reasons to void your warranty? Are they any worse than, say, Subaru dealers denying coverage to modded WRXs or Toyota (correctly, IMO) blaming sludged engines on poor maintenance? With such a long warranty Hyundai would be foolish not to protect themselves against claims from customers who abused or neglected their car (why should I change the oil? I've got a 100k mile warranty!).
I really don't know the answer. Tell you what, I'll try to blow my tranny at 80k miles and I'll let you know what happens ;-)
-Jason
oh, and I'm pretty sure that 2yr/24k mile thing is bogus, too.
cases concerning blown engines, but then I saw an article in my recent copy of Grassroots Motorsports (SCCA autocross related magazine). I've added a section to my reports on those cars:
Subaru America promoted the aggressive use of this model vehicle by announcing that it was paying for membership fees for each 2002 WRX owner in the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA). Membership entitles owners to compete and participate in SCCA race events. Such use can be expected to cause accelerated wear and tear on all components of the car, including but not limited to engine, transmission driveline components, suspension systems and electrical systems. The Subaru warranty is not affected by this offer. See: Grassroots Motorsports, February 2003 issue, page 36.
Subaru actually promotes far harsher driving of its products than can be duplicated on the street by virtue of the SCCA program, and does so with the warranty unaffected. To view it otherwise is to ignore Subaru’s design and promotional marketing for this vehicle.
Subaru advertisements on television portray WRX drivers pushing the car to extreme limits, best be described as “redline” driving. Subaru clearly gives its blessing in advertisements and in the SCCA promotion, for WRX owners to go race their car at SCCA events and be supported by the full protection of the warranty despite the hard use. The contradiction in this case is that harsh use of the vehicle, in fact promoted use, puts the owner in the unenviable position of being held accountable for repairs resulting from driving his WRX in the way Subaru says he should.
I think the Korean cars do have a market. Some people just aren't that fussy, and could care less about a squeek or a rattle. They just want cheap wheels to get from Point A to Point B.
If you treat the cars as disposable and drive them for 10 years without expecting any resale (which is like diving off a cliff with Korean cars), it could get the job done.
By defitinition, most folks here are auto enthusiasts and clearly to not fall into that category.
zeus: not that I disagree with you, but don't you think 90% or more of WRX owners that do participate in SCCA events modify their cars? Heck, it might be 99%.
Let's look at the problems - CEL, clutch, tranny gears.
Check-engine lights can be attributed to aftermarket intakes most of the time. Or exhausts. Did you know the stock WRX exhaust has THREE catalytic converters? You really think SCCA racers keep all 3?
The clutches are abused with wheel spin, and I don't just mean in 1st gear. One guy was complaining that he was not able to spin the tires in FOURTH gear. C'mon, that's abuse!
Tranny same thing. Not to mention there was one thread on NASIOC on failures, and every single one was with a modified engine, most making over 250hp. $400 chips control boost and that puts extra stress on the entire drivetrain.
Sure, Subaru ads promote redline driving, but with a bone-stock vehicle, no mods, OE tires, OE intake, OE exhaust, OE suspension, OE engine chip, etc.
I think you could award the WRX with the "Most Likely to be Modified" award, perhaps with the VW 1.8T the only real competition.
Look at it this way. You're are PC salesman, and sell reliable PCs with Windows XP. Some geek buys a batch and loads, I dunno, Linux on them. Then of course he puts yellow stickers on it (blocking the vents) and doubles the memory with aftermarket chips.
The computer motherboards all get fried. Does your warranty cover them?
I guess you could ask to see the records of the WRX owners that participated in SCCA Solo II competitions. If they competed in SM or STS/STX classes, then they did modify their cars and perhaps shouldn't be asking for warranty work. But if they're participating in the stock class I don't think you can assume the cars were modified in any way unless you want to call in to question the competency of the SCCA vehicle inspectors.
It's been awhile since I've been in this forum, so sorry for the delay. Anyway, with the Mopar minivans and blue smoke, back in the day that was always a sign that they had the Mistubishi 3.0 under the hood. That thing, along with the 2.6 4-cyl, were infamous for burning oil.
The 2.6 was phased out back in the 80's though, and replaced by a Mopar built 2.5 (enlarged 2.2, and still with us today as the 2.0/2.4). I dunno when the Mitsu 3.0 was phased out though, but I think the minivans all run Mopar 3.3/3.8s (an old Dynasty/NYer/Imperial engine)
I haven't seen a Mopar oil burner in awhile though. Have the Mopar engines started picking up that habit though? I always thought it was just a Mitsubishi thang!
tired: I agree, I think the SCCA inspectors are fine, certainly more capable than most dealers would be at sniffing out illegal mods.
Even then, I've seen end links for sway bars that are marketed as looking like stock, for cheaters. They are shaped like the OE ones and painted black to look like the stock rubber (but they are metal). They're still available so someone's buying them.
I'll see if I can find a link, they're pretty sneaky.
But I wouldn't guess that most WRX owners that have blown their clutch or tranny are SCCA members. If you think about it, they have an outlet for driving at the limit and might even be less likely to abuse the hardware on the street.
You're right. Maybe after a season of autocrossing, they realize that all that abuse doesn't really make them any faster.
Maybe then another defense is to say that the lack of any SCCA records on them must mean that they weren't pushing the equipment to the limits within the controlled environment that was provided for them free of charge (Subaru was paying for the memberships) and that such behavior was not only reckless and dangerous, but outside of the scope of the warranty.
In an SCCA autocross, pre-event technical inspectors do NOT check for illegal mods. We simply check to see that it is a safe car. At least this is they way it is at a local level. I believe regionally and nationally, it is pretty much the same.
A competitor has to issue a challenge for an evaluation of a cars modifications to even be considered.
Comments
Someone will jump in and bash me, then start sending me threatening e-mails again. Whatever.
I guess they don't realize I'm in the witness protection program - they have no idea what I did in my former life..
Ok, Ford Windstall bashing time.....hehehe. I had a 96 that went through 3 transmissions, 2 front ends, an abs system, and I can't remember what else, in 3 months. It sat in the shop for 8 out of the 12 weeks I owned it. All I wanted the dealer to do was take it back and get me a different van. Didn't work that way though. To this day I'm not welcome at that dealer. Guess I was inconsiderate to actually want my vehicle to run and go.
Where did you work again, Bambi motors .? .l.o.l.
Terry ;-)
Dealers report to NADA monthly, so the prices are a month late when published. Edmunds gives you someone's opinion, not neccessarily the facts.
With NADA look to loan value, it's closer to the actual used car than trade values, which can be inflated. The sales prices are fairly accurate.
Sometimes it all depends on the types of vehicles .. right now, it seems KBB is a little weak on imports trades .. I do agree on most of the Nada "asking" prices and loan values for the retail side ..
Terry.
KBB put my '89 Loyale at $0!
I was at a few auctions up north a weeks or so ago, and I could always tell, all I would hear is "the prices are so crazy here, who would ever pay that" these guys would never even hit the starting bid .l.o.l.. meanwhile, the guys from Utah are buying everything laying loose ..
Terry.
akangl - The Kia guys didn't like the reality check I gave them from my first hand, recent knowledge of lemon law cases - they just can't understand why a manufacturer that puts out so few cars (in comparison) has so many problematic cars.
mass - While Hyundai HAS made significant improvements, bear in mind it's easy to bring up an "F" to a "D" when you were in school, right? Now, you don't go from a "D" to a "B+" or an "A" without even more significant effort, changing the way you think, act and work - completely realigning your life. Look at the differences, from your school experiences, in the lifestyle and attitude of an "A" student versus a "D" student.
The 100,000 mile warranty is actually a very unfortunate issue. They advertise it to increase sales and customer confidence - it only covers the powertrain rotating assemblies, so all the high dollar components like the Powertrain Control Module (PCM - which they go through like we go through socks), every $100 sensor on the car, all the electrical components, the fuel injection system, etc - are NOT covered. Plus, if you sell the car after 3 years of normal use (45-50K miles), the warranty is finished. Done.
Hyundai owners I have interviewed (many) have expressed their displeasure with the way the warranty was disclosed - "it's covered for 100,000 miles", only to find out when the lady's PCM shorted and the car stalled in traffic at 53,000 miles, not only did she buy a $486.00 PCM plus labor, she paid for towing, too. Some warranty.....
I was worried, but didn't think much of it....little did I know that would kick off a 4 month long battle. The truck would quit at random, in the driveway, at 65 mph on the highway, once in the middle of a logging road.
Back and forth to the dealer (it was still under the diesel warranty) couldn't duplicate the problem. Finally I got sooo frustrated I threw the keys at the service advisor (Joe, former diesel tech) and told him I wasn't going to pick it up until they figured it out. He drove it for a couple weeks and finally one day out of the blue it did it.
Turned out it was the PCM and it was covered under the diesel warranty. Between us and the warranty we pumped over $7000 into that truck including a new injection pump, all that in just 2 years and 40k.
Me thinks vehicles don't like me much, well, except my 94 Escort(103k)....paid $1500 for it 3 months ago, have put 4k on it and have yet to have a problem with it.
Ok, now that I have written a small novel I better get the kids to the bus stop. Its 36 below zero......I thought it was supposed to be spring!!
I hear ya manamal...my GTI VR6 only has 174 horsies but the troque...oh the marvelous torque...! I'm pretty sure a Viggen would be a disaster waiting to happen...I'm just not that bold. Nice veh though...
Regards... Vikd
Where do they come up with stuff -- So you have a warranty, that's great, unless you have to use 8/9 times in a year .. then the "love" seems to melt off in a hurry ..
There is just too many of these things at the auctions to deny longevity, there is just too many of these things with 6/8/10k at the block to even go into a discussion on quality, how could they, half of them don't run when they get there .. and when it comes to endurance, where do you go with that point, you can't ~ that's because the power windows have failed at 9k, the cruise quit working at 3k, and let's not forget that wonderful 6 way power seat, that kinda converts itself to a 2 way power seat when it want's to, as does the tranny .. But, then again you do have that wonderful warranty that's staring you in the face for the next 10 years, it's gonna have to, they have no resale .. that darn warranty is sure nice to have.
Terry ;-)
Go about a year back, there was a whole "Hung and Tung" show, as we called it, two Hyundai fans that were just hysterical. We never got too adversarial but it was LOL just about every day for a while there.
Those guys are passionate!
-juice
Any sales folks know how sales of the Sorrento are doing? That's about the only model mildly interesting...at least initially...
Regards... Vikd
-juice
There are alot of cars out there that no car person or anyone in their right mind would ever buy at any price....but yet these cars sell everyday. They sell to people who did alot of research and homework.
then when I read magazines like consuemr reports who implies that a Hyundai is in the same league as a Honda I just have to laugh.....
-juice
I was not talking about the powertrain warranty, I was thinking in regards to the 5 year bumper to bumper warranty. It should cover everything right? If I am correct BMW and MB are not even that long. Powertrian warranties are a crock, and I pay no attention to them, because just as you said, they do not cover the parts that break 99% of the time.
Personally I think the Hyundias are not bad looking cars and some even look good. I can understand why people would buy them, especially people with lower incomes. Take the Santa Fe for example. My friend points out that the LX model comes with every conceivable option for any car except a sunroof, standard.. Heated seats, cd changer, leather, power everything, auto A/C, ABS, disc brakes, V6, etc. You can probably pick one up close to invoice of around $22,000 and right now there is $1000 rebate or 0% for 60 months. Sounds like a lot of car for the money.
Of course like you said, if it breaks and is in the shop once a month, that is no bargain. But I can definately see where shoppers would consider Hyundia if they can get past the bad rep that they have for reliability. That is why I asked for you guys input, since you see them day in and out. I guess that was a resounding NO and I should diswayed him from buying one. He has looked at Tribute/Escape/CRV/Rav4/Forrester and for one reason or another does not like them. Any suggestions for a small to mid sized SUV that would be reliable and fully loaded for less than $23,000? Thanks again
Hondas get two red dots, much better than average, and the rest are slightly better than average.
Overall Honda ends up well ahead. On page 85 they list Honda as 4th best overall with 32 problems per 100 vehicles, while Hyundai is just slightly above average with 53 problems per 100 vehicles.
This is for 2000 models, their data, not mine.
-juice
For example : 5/60 is not what it seems. It is 2/24 Bumper to bumper with the remainder ONLY covering manufacturers defects. Who determines what and what is not a defect? The dealer of course. (More on this later)
For example : The 10/100 Powertrain has some rigorous maintinence that is needed to keep in effect. The Sante Fe requires you to inspect the tranny filter every 15K miles. To get to the filter you need to drop the pan. Doing this requires putting in new fluid and hell while you're in there you may as well replace the filter. Its cheap afterall. So basically every 15K looks like you're doing a tranny service.
Interestingly enough if you look at where JD powers ranks the Hyundai dealer network as a group you'll notice that they are below average in regards to customer satisfaction. Why? Dunno. I do know that these below average dealers will be the ones fixing any problems you might have. They are the ones determining what is and isn't a manufacturers defect...
Just something your friend should think about.
http://www.allpar.com/cr.html
Has he considered a wagon...?
Regards... Vikd
$23k for a reliable mid-sizer? No way, you're lucky to get a well equipped compact for that much.
Allpar sounds a bit sore about previous poor ratings, to be honest. They also question things like sample size but leave out the fact that CR publishes a "N/A" rating when the sample size is too small. I see plenty of flaws in their logic, though it's nice to see someone playing devil's advocate.
-juice
I think that data is much more useful than the 90 day IQ study. I could care less about the first 90 days, you're totally covered so it won't cost you anything anyway. I want to know a forecast for after the warranty expires.
Edmunds has some ratings, too, FWIW.
-juice
afk, it is weird edmunds lists the hyundia warranty as 5/60...no mention of details you said....you are right the fine print is what kills you. I will make sure he knows about that if he does decide on hyundia.
vik..yeah I mentioned wagons to him, he is considering that, he would like the size of an suv, but wagon may give him more features for his limited budget.
But see where this is going? An uninformed buyer sees another SUV for $30,000 and it looks like the santa fe is the same or more car for $22,000. I can see where people that do not do alot of research would fall for that. Of course if you have not heard about Hyundia and Kia reliability being bad, you must have lived under a rock the last 10 years.
SUVs have higher margins because demand is high and the image allows it. Similarly, an LW300 is cheaper than a Vue and a Taurus wagon is cheaper than an Explorer.
-juice
<snip>
For example : 5/60 is not what it seems. It is 2/24 Bumper to bumper with the remainder ONLY covering manufacturers defects. Who determines what and what is not a defect? The dealer of course. (More on this later)
For example : The 10/100 Powertrain has some rigorous maintinence that is needed to keep in effect. The Sante Fe requires you to inspect the tranny filter every 15K miles. To get to the filter you need to drop the pan. Doing this requires putting in new fluid and hell while you're in there you may as well replace the filter. Its cheap afterall. So basically every 15K looks like you're doing a tranny service.
</snip>
Tranny service is required at 30k, not 15k. That I know for a fact, since my Santa Fe is at 32k miles and I'm following the severe service schedule. You ARE allowed to do your own maintenance and not void the warranty, as long as you use Hyundai approved parts (hint: using Dextron tranny fluid WILL likely blow your tranny and void the warranty). And the tranny filter on most models of Santa Fe (but not early ones like mine, darn it) is actually a spin on type that looks just like an oil filter.
Bottom line - I hate coming across like a Hyundai apologist. But they really do make some nice products (the Santa Fe is one) that make a compelling argument, as masspector has mentioned. If anyone is really interested, I can bring the warranty and service booklets in tomorrow and post some more info.
Zeus, other than the PCM (mine was replaced under recall) are there any major issues with the SF you've seen? I really am curious. Which seem to be the most problematic Hyun/Kias (I'm guessing the Sephia/Spectra).
-Jason
The Santa Fe has also shown repetitive issues with electrical problems - ground shorts, component failures, etc.
BTW I don't disagree with you. The wording is not much different than other manufacturers. Still I wonder where Hyundai dealers as a whole rank, since JD Powers only lists them as below average.
I really don't know the answer. Tell you what, I'll try to blow my tranny at 80k miles and I'll let you know what happens ;-)
-Jason
oh, and I'm pretty sure that 2yr/24k mile thing is bogus, too.
____________________________________________
SUBARU WRX SCCA ENROLLMENT
Subaru America promoted the aggressive use of this model vehicle by announcing that it was paying for membership fees for each 2002 WRX owner in the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA). Membership entitles owners to compete and participate in SCCA race events. Such use can be expected to cause accelerated wear and tear on all components of the car, including but not limited to engine, transmission driveline components, suspension systems and electrical systems. The Subaru warranty is not affected by this offer. See: Grassroots Motorsports, February 2003 issue, page 36.
Subaru actually promotes far harsher driving of its products than can be duplicated on the street by virtue of the SCCA program, and does so with the warranty unaffected. To view it otherwise is to ignore Subaru’s design and promotional marketing for this vehicle.
Subaru advertisements on television portray WRX drivers pushing the car to extreme limits, best be described as “redline” driving. Subaru clearly gives its blessing in advertisements and in the SCCA promotion, for WRX owners to go race their car at SCCA events and be supported by the full protection of the warranty despite the hard use. The contradiction in this case is that harsh use of the vehicle, in fact promoted use, puts the owner in the unenviable position of being held accountable for repairs resulting from driving his WRX in the way Subaru says he should.
If you treat the cars as disposable and drive them for 10 years without expecting any resale (which is like diving off a cliff with Korean cars), it could get the job done.
By defitinition, most folks here are auto enthusiasts and clearly to not fall into that category.
zeus: not that I disagree with you, but don't you think 90% or more of WRX owners that do participate in SCCA events modify their cars? Heck, it might be 99%.
Let's look at the problems - CEL, clutch, tranny gears.
Check-engine lights can be attributed to aftermarket intakes most of the time. Or exhausts. Did you know the stock WRX exhaust has THREE catalytic converters? You really think SCCA racers keep all 3?
The clutches are abused with wheel spin, and I don't just mean in 1st gear. One guy was complaining that he was not able to spin the tires in FOURTH gear. C'mon, that's abuse!
Tranny same thing. Not to mention there was one thread on NASIOC on failures, and every single one was with a modified engine, most making over 250hp. $400 chips control boost and that puts extra stress on the entire drivetrain.
Sure, Subaru ads promote redline driving, but with a bone-stock vehicle, no mods, OE tires, OE intake, OE exhaust, OE suspension, OE engine chip, etc.
I think you could award the WRX with the "Most Likely to be Modified" award, perhaps with the VW 1.8T the only real competition.
Look at it this way. You're are PC salesman, and sell reliable PCs with Windows XP. Some geek buys a batch and loads, I dunno, Linux on them. Then of course he puts yellow stickers on it (blocking the vents) and doubles the memory with aftermarket chips.
The computer motherboards all get fried. Does your warranty cover them?
Honestly, would you? I wouldn't.
-juice
OK, here's a more common mistake I see. Let's say they're all mini-towers, and the users lean a book or something up against it, blocking the vents.
-juice
The 2.6 was phased out back in the 80's though, and replaced by a Mopar built 2.5 (enlarged 2.2, and still with us today as the 2.0/2.4). I dunno when the Mitsu 3.0 was phased out though, but I think the minivans all run Mopar 3.3/3.8s (an old Dynasty/NYer/Imperial engine)
I haven't seen a Mopar oil burner in awhile though. Have the Mopar engines started picking up that habit though? I always thought it was just a Mitsubishi thang!
Even then, I've seen end links for sway bars that are marketed as looking like stock, for cheaters. They are shaped like the OE ones and painted black to look like the stock rubber (but they are metal). They're still available so someone's buying them.
I'll see if I can find a link, they're pretty sneaky.
But I wouldn't guess that most WRX owners that have blown their clutch or tranny are SCCA members. If you think about it, they have an outlet for driving at the limit and might even be less likely to abuse the hardware on the street.
-juice
Maybe then another defense is to say that the lack of any SCCA records on them must mean that they weren't pushing the equipment to the limits within the controlled environment that was provided for them free of charge (Subaru was paying for the memberships) and that such behavior was not only reckless and dangerous, but outside of the scope of the warranty.
A competitor has to issue a challenge for an evaluation of a cars modifications to even be considered.
TB