You saying your radar managed to lock in on a 2000 Celica? It's neither fast, nor comfortable. And it's not near the top of it's (rapidly shrinking) class either. It's a very middling and forgetable hatchback. Why didn't you get something like a GTI instead? Wouldn't that have more "character", less "boredom" in much the same vein that you're implying for the Passat?
bodydouble, I wasn't shopping for a family sedan when I purchased my Celica in 2000, neither was I looking for fast or comfortable. You are absolutely correct if you are implying my Celica sucks compared to the Accord, Passat and Camry as a family sedan.
My point was, if I were shopping for a family sedan, I'd probably go with the Camry because it does family sedan things better (according to me) than the other 2. The Passat does have more character than both the Camry and the Accord.
We can go in scan and clear codes...do some data logging, make adjustments to the ECU....for about $200 for the cable and software. You just need a computer...or laptop.
On the 'tex...fellow VW owners who have the VAG-COM are willing to help others out...some of them are VW techs...most other regular joes.
It beats paying $80+ for a scan of the OBD-II computer
Price info for the Passat ($30.7k) and Accord ($26.3k) per my post #1251 came from the CR test-issue for integrity of data. Am aware that one could haggle these prices, but CR evidently aims to present average attainable prices by the typical car shopper; thus, those prices.
As well, the next-tier vehicles like the G35, Acura TL (though on fire sale now as an outgoing gen model), etc. could be negotiated down to near Passat GLX prices.
When bringing in "car cousins" (A6 with the Passat) in the discussion, it's not for anything else but for one simple personal reason: I want CARMAKERS to ALSO read my post, have it weigh down on them along with other consumer feedback, and if they're really serious, to cause IMPROVEMENT of their products.
If this takes effect, in the case of VW and Audi, it benefits their respective customers - and forces their competition to work harder - and in the end, benefits the car-buying public.
Brand loyalty is somewhat a weak concept because we car owners are shooting ourselves in the foot if we uphold a car despite its shortcomings.
In that vein, even if my wife and I currently drive Accords, we'll be driving something different in the future if Honda isn't advancing, or regresses outright, versus its competition.
Obviously, my intent was missed through no fault of yours. The RL - Acura needs to upgrade it !
AutomobileMag states that a new Acura 3.5RL will come soon, Front wheel drive, new generation 3.5L engine V6 with 300 hp and 260 lb-ft of torque, and a version of Honda's accord's front wheel drive platform, with All-wheel drive derived from MDX platform.
I would rather take a reliable car with a slight dose of boredom than a car that has supposed "character" which can only be observed while looking at it on the repair shop lift. I can make my Accord different, which I did with body-side moldings, tint, fog lights, fenderwell trim, spoiler, and exhaust finisher, but I can't make a piece of junk be anything but a piece of junk. Okay, maybe piece of junk is a bit harsh .... I meant to say a nice-driving piece of junk.
Did you paint your rear drums yellow or red? They look sweet through some nice 3 spoke alloy wheels. Or did you splurge on a highend accord with those fancy rear discs?
<When bringing in "car cousins" (A6 with the Passat) in the discussion, it's not for anything else but for one simple personal reason: I want CARMAKERS to ALSO read my post, have it weigh down on them along with other consumer feedback, and if they're really serious, to cause IMPROVEMENT of their products.
If this takes effect, in the case of VW and Audi, it benefits their respective customers - and forces their competition to work harder - and in the end, benefits the car-buying public.
Brand loyalty is somewhat a weak concept because we car owners are shooting ourselves in the foot if we uphold a car despite its shortcomings.
In that vein, even if my wife and I currently drive Accords, we'll be driving something different in the future if Honda isn't advancing, or regresses outright, versus its competition.
Obviously, my intent was missed through no fault of yours. The RL - Acura needs to upgrade it !>
leif: I have a EX-L Accord which comes with 4-wheel disc brakes which do show quite nicely through the 5-spoke alloy wheels. But once I get past admiring the exterior with it's fog lights, rear spoiler (factory), tinted windows, and splash guards I get to use my remote to lower the windows so I can get a glimpse of my awesome interior which comes with dual-zone climate control, heated seats, a bunch of cupholders, 6-disc changer, steering wheel audio controls, tilt/telescopic wheel, LED guages, sunroof, and excellent 5-speed manual transmission. And all that for about the price of a base Passat GL with no leather, no sunroof, no cd changer, no dual-zone climate control, etc or I could get the leather, sunroof, etc in a Jetta and pay about a $1000 less but have to deal with even more subpar reliability than the Passat and the sad 2.0L 115HP engine. Hmmm ... glad there is an Accord in my driveway or I would be depressed after seeing those numbers.
Consumer Reports is planning to do a family sedan comparo in their May 2003 issue. According to the Annual Auto Issue (look under "next scheduled test" by each auto description), the test will include the Passat, Accord, Mazda 6, and Hyundai XG300 (might be fifth but I can't remember). Since the Accord 4 cylinder has already been tested, it's likely that this time around CR will test the V-6 version. We'll see how the rankings change once this full test is completed.
Note...that the Camry LE 4 cyl which CR tested has no options, aside from the automatic transmission, which goes for about $20,000. Where would the Accord LX 4 cyl rank? Would we assume just as good as the EX 4 cyl?
At least the Camry XLE V6 took the 2nd overall highest ranking, despite its comfort oriented suspension tuning and its premium price over the Accord.
CR tends to favor ride over handling and performance. With that said they said in any form the Accord is an outstanding all-around car. And as has been noted before the magazines that favor "driving" have picked the Accord.
Know conveniently, CR is "not a real car magazine." Seems as though people have been quoting CR throughout this discussion. I guess CR's reliability rankings don't count anymore either.
Oh btw, this is not a real web site-you know because they pick the passat over the accord.
No need to taunt anybody. Do we need to remind you that Passat owners totally IGNORE Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Road & Track, Autoweek etc, just because they pick the Accord? And then come back and quote Edmunds (before the CR test at least) and then tell us that we don't consider CR because it picks the Passat? WOW, hypocrisy, thy name is Passat owners.
Anyway, I haven't seen the CR report yet so will comment only after I know more for myself, seeing how the Passat owners regularly manipulate the quotes ( One said that the top gear acceleration of the Passat was "much" better in a test, without mentioning that the Passat was an Auto (unable to hold top gear at the lower, thus downshifting, per the same report) and teh Accord was a manual, which was in actual top gear all the while during the top gear accel. test.
Come to think of it, it's pretty easy also to adjust your seat manually, and the mirror by reaching out the window. Oh, and how hard can it be to take your hand off the steering wheel and reach down just a bit to turn the knob on the stereo? And would it kill anyone to lock your doors with the key rather than click a button on a remote? And why have complicated ABS when you can simply pump your foot? Any fool can do that, right? And why do we need auto climate control.
I think you're onto something. Auto makers should do away with unnecessary, complicated luxury and convenient features and just charge the premium prices!
No auto-off headlights... something significant that the Accord contingent can obsess over when "plood" and drum brakes come up again... and we know they will.
And it is more significant than "reach down and turn that knob". It also serves as a headlight delay when you leave the car in a poorly lit area. Given the absence of such a feature in the Passat, perhaps your real wood will make you feel more secure in such a situation. ;-)
RT did a comparo that Accord won ove the Passat, infact PAssat was very lowly ranked (This report was totally ignored by Passat owners).
In the CD test (like most CD tests) the emphasis was on ride and handling, which constitute to driving excitement, and what Passat owners keep boasting about. There the Passat was beaten. Also, CD constantly picks the Accord in their 10Best list every year (This report was totally ignored by Passat owners).
MT did not do a comparison, and I agree with you on that, though the praises for the Accord were scintillating (This report was totally ignored by Passat owners).
So to sum it up, its like the pot calling the kettle black when you say that "mags that pick the Passat are ignored by Accord owners"
In fact, till CR, only Edmunds ever ratred the Passat over the Accord, NO ONE ELSE, and we still kept hearing quotes from Edmunds while all else was ignored.
Accordman, you keep saying the same things over and over. Why don't you cut and paste your old posts? I'll have to repeat, how easily you forget that Autombile readers also picked the Passat over the Accord, and since there are so many accord owners they must be voting for something else. Also,some of the accord fans couldnt wait for the CR comparison, and now that it's out, suddenly it's not a driver's mag. Hmmm. Dan Jedlickia on MSN Autos also stated that the 03 accord didn't have the driving kicks that it had before the new generation.
The 3 cars compete for different sorts of people. No one car is better than the other. You can quote all you want, but you are not going to convince the buyers of the other cars one bit.
Quit quoting magazines and what not. You made your choice in your car. Don't have to make other people believe in your choice.
Here's my take on the cars.
Passat ------ A Passat buyer will not consider an Accord or Camry because they want to feel special in their car. They want their car to reflect their taste and choice. They want *luxury* over other things and they want the feel of a european car
Camry ----- A Camry buyer buys this car because it is quiet and gives a comfortable non-obtrusive ride. Top notch fit and finish. More comfortable with the Japanese (specifically Toyota) reliability
Accord ------ Accord buyers are the rebels. Jack of all trades but master of none. It rewards the driver better driving experience over the Camry and Passat but it doesn't look the best. It gives you good performance but cheapens the interior over the other cars to save cost. It doesn't drive as quiet nor as sturdy as the Passat but it is good compromise bet. isolation and interacton. Often buy Accord over Camry because buyer feels Accord is more sporty. Once threaten will often points out the unreliability of the European/Korean/American cars. In this case the Passat.
At the cost of repeating myself, this is like the pot calling hte kettle black. You are the one who kept on like a broken record about the edmunds review till the Automobile/CR ones came out. It was your constant repeating yourself that made me repeat myself, but we all know you have a very convenient memory so you probably forgot that. Maybe you should click on your posts and read what you have posted, it will look like a xerox copy of your earleir psots.
BTW, CD and RT are widely regarded a mags that place far more emphasis on ride and handling, and both ended up picking the Accord. Now let's see you repeat yourself.
accordman, my magazines were new, the May 03' Consumer Reports and the May 03'Automobile Magazine. I only brought up the old ones again because you bring up the old articles, but conveniently forget many of those favorable to the Passat. I want to hear new news.
over 4 door sedans? A psychiatrist could have a field day in this forum.
Can we sum up?
If you like the Passat, be sure to buy a spare for parts. Keep a flashlight handy for when the lights fail. And make sure you have your magazine references right (actually, that goes for both camps).
If you like the Accord, be sure to get the optional horn that bleats like a sheep; it can only be obtained with the appliance white styling package. And do not seriously argue that you bought the car for its handling.
If you can earnestly debate which of these 2 cars is "better", you are one dogmatic individual. As has been already mentioned, they appeal to 2 groups of people who are alike only in their hard-headedness.
Besides, everyone knows the Saturn Ion is the only choice in this field...right :-)??
Why put down another car just because you drive a competing car? Is it a lack of security and self-confidence??
Oh my god, I bought car A. Did I make the right decision?? Maybe I should visit all the websites, like edmunds.com and see what other people are buying. If they are not buying A, I'll convince them to buy car A, and car B and car C are junks.
Is that it??
If there's truly 1 best car out there, there would be only 1 car on the road. In an ideal world that is.
So, it is either the selected few, gifted so to say, knows what's best for everyone and all of us are idiots for buying car B and C.
All this bickering over a 4 door family sedan. What's next? What house to buy?? Fortunately all houses are a little different, unlike cars.
All I can say is, say what you like about your car and what you dislike about your car. The car you own. Don't bad mouth the choices of cars other people made. Where are your manners??
Please re-read the CD test, especially the paragraphs about eh individual cars.
Also, why did you forget to mention the quote from RT, where they say something like "its a strange world we live in , where a Japanese car drives like a German car and a German car that does not drive like a German car." Oh, why did I bother to ask, you always forget about them.
bj, So you are now quoting "New" mags right? They why for heaven's sake did you keep quoting the old Edmunds review for a long long time, till Automobile/CD came out? This is amazing!
I can't seem to find the paragraphs that state the accord's superiority in ride and handling over the passat. The only indication of how they compare in these areas seems to be the chart at the end of the article.
Well I know one review said that it was a strange world when the Accord felt like a German car and the Passat didn't. The Passat also got criticized in one article for it's mushy brakes. In fact, the only consensus on the Passat is that it drives nice in a straight line and is pretty. It's not reliable, it's not fast, it's not the roomiest, it's not the safest. So buy a Passat if you want a pretty car that drives nice but don't chide Accord owners because they went for what, to them, was a better all-around package with better piece of mind.
... with all the personal attacks? What's up with people obssessing over what the car mags said? Just because something is in print doesn't mean it is so (especially CR!). Besides, buying a car is such a personal preference, it's like saying someone is a moron because apples are their favorite fruit. That being said, my wife has a 2002 Passat GLX wagon which she loves, and I have a 2003 Accord EX which I love. There are some things about the Passat that I like better than the Accord, and vice versa. I thought the Camry was about as exciting as an old K car, but I don't feel the need to flame people who own it! (even though I thought it was boring, the Camry SE does look better than Accord or Passat, IMO)
P.S. - we haven't had a single problem with the Passat after 18 months
There's no perfect car in this world. If there is, everyone would be driving that car.
I agree with you. Why quote what all these magazine says. Are you going to buy another car just because the magazine says the car you bought is no longer a good car?? Based on what? Marketing monies they get from a competing car??
All modern cars on the road today are safe. They are also as reliable as the next car. Just because it has a German or Korean moniker, it doesn't make it less reliable than the Japanese moniker.
What's the point of saying in every debate, when cornered, one brings up the reliability and safety to attack the other person's choice of car. Obviously these 3 cars are as SAFE and as RELIABLE as any other car out there.
Maybe this should be an Accord VS Passat forum. I don't see any complains about Camry. I think someone has something against German car makers.
Stop qouting what magazines says. Instead, let the owners of the cars, each of the 3 cars, who have spent considerable amount of time in their respective cars view their opinion. A short test drive around the block and reading what magazine reviewers say DO NOT make you qualify to give a short term evaluation of the car, let alone a long term.
Unless you are like stinkbug, who has the 2 competing cars in his garage.
Be nice now, before you give an old lady more migraines than she can take. LOL
Now both camps have been sniping away for a while, but someone above described the passat as not safe. That's just wrong. People who read these posts can make up their own minds on subjective issues like the exteriors, interiors and driving feel, but safety doesn't belong there. The Passat has achieved the highest crash scores since its intro and offers many safety features. The Passat, accord and camry have consistently made safety a priority.
CR lists the Passat as 15% BETTER than average for reliability. The Maxima is best at 42% better than average. The accord is not listed for some reason. For safety, the passat GLX V6 is listed as #1 with an excellent rating in avoidance and protection. The only other car that is excellent in both categories is the Camry in second. The Passat GLS 4cyl. is in 3rd. Once again the accord is not listed.
About the Passat, they said "Impressive crash-test results, capable and forgiving handling, and strong brakes."
Comments
My point was, if I were shopping for a family sedan, I'd probably go with the Camry because it does family sedan things better (according to me) than the other 2. The Passat does have more character than both the Camry and the Accord.
As far as the GTI goes, I'm not really into VWs.
http://www.ross-tech.com
We can go in scan and clear codes...do some data logging, make adjustments to the ECU....for about $200 for the cable and software. You just need a computer...or laptop.
On the 'tex...fellow VW owners who have the VAG-COM are willing to help others out...some of them are VW techs...most other regular joes.
It beats paying $80+ for a scan of the OBD-II computer
As well, the next-tier vehicles like the G35, Acura TL (though on fire sale now as an outgoing gen model), etc. could be negotiated down to near Passat GLX prices.
When bringing in "car cousins" (A6 with the Passat) in the discussion, it's not for anything else but for one simple personal reason: I want CARMAKERS to ALSO read my post, have it weigh down on them along with other consumer feedback, and if they're really serious, to cause IMPROVEMENT of their products.
If this takes effect, in the case of VW and Audi, it benefits their respective customers - and forces their competition to work harder - and in the end, benefits the car-buying public.
Brand loyalty is somewhat a weak concept because we car owners are shooting ourselves in the foot if we uphold a car despite its shortcomings.
In that vein, even if my wife and I currently drive Accords, we'll be driving something different in the future if Honda isn't advancing, or regresses outright, versus its competition.
Obviously, my intent was missed through no fault of yours. The RL - Acura needs to upgrade it !
You've got that right... the rumors I've heard is that a complete redesign is due in 2005. About 3 years too late... ;-)
1)Passat GLX V6
2)Camry XLE V6
3)Accord EX V6
4)Accord EX 4 cyl
5)Passat GLS 4 cyl
6)Camry LE
7)Altima 3.5
8)Mazda6 4cyl
9)Mazda6 V6
10)Altima 2.5
The accord and passat took 4 out of the top 5 with accord higher for its 4cyl and passat for the v6.
So where are the Camry defenders?
<When bringing in "car cousins" (A6 with the Passat) in the discussion, it's not for anything else but for one simple personal reason: I want CARMAKERS to ALSO read my post, have it weigh down on them along with other consumer feedback, and if they're really serious, to cause IMPROVEMENT of their products.
If this takes effect, in the case of VW and Audi, it benefits their respective customers - and forces their competition to work harder - and in the end, benefits the car-buying public.
Brand loyalty is somewhat a weak concept because we car owners are shooting ourselves in the foot if we uphold a car despite its shortcomings.
In that vein, even if my wife and I currently drive Accords, we'll be driving something different in the future if Honda isn't advancing, or regresses outright, versus its competition.
Obviously, my intent was missed through no fault of yours. The RL - Acura needs to upgrade it !>
At least the Camry XLE V6 took the 2nd overall highest ranking, despite its comfort oriented suspension tuning and its premium price over the Accord.
Oh btw, this is not a real web site-you know because they pick the passat over the accord.
Anyway, I haven't seen the CR report yet so will comment only after I know more for myself, seeing how the Passat owners regularly manipulate the quotes ( One said that the top gear acceleration of the Passat was "much" better in a test, without mentioning that the Passat was an Auto (unable to hold top gear at the lower, thus downshifting, per the same report) and teh Accord was a manual, which was in actual top gear all the while during the top gear accel. test.
I think you're onto something. Auto makers should do away with unnecessary, complicated luxury and convenient features and just charge the premium prices!
And it is more significant than "reach down and turn that knob". It also serves as a headlight delay when you leave the car in a poorly lit area. Given the absence of such a feature in the Passat, perhaps your real wood will make you feel more secure in such a situation. ;-)
When did C&D do an apples to apples{manual to manual} comparison between the passat and accord?
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/volkswagen/passat/100161568/ratin- gs_consumer.html?tid=.n.vdpheader.ratingsbox..0.Volkswagen*
Honda Accord consumer rating: 9.2
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/honda/accord/index.html?tid=edmun- ds.n.mmindex.content..0.Honda*
Why do you consider the PASSAT such a better car when compared to the HONDA.
Seems the owners of the VW do not agree.
In the CD test (like most CD tests) the emphasis was on ride and handling, which constitute to driving excitement, and what Passat owners keep boasting about. There the Passat was beaten. Also, CD constantly picks the Accord in their 10Best list every year (This report was totally ignored by Passat owners).
MT did not do a comparison, and I agree with you on that, though the praises for the Accord were scintillating (This report was totally ignored by Passat owners).
So to sum it up, its like the pot calling the kettle black when you say that "mags that pick the Passat are ignored by Accord owners"
In fact, till CR, only Edmunds ever ratred the Passat over the Accord, NO ONE ELSE, and we still kept hearing quotes from Edmunds while all else was ignored.
Dan Jedlickia on MSN Autos also stated that the 03 accord didn't have the driving kicks that it had before the new generation.
The 3 cars compete for different sorts of people. No one car is better than the other. You can quote all you want, but you are not going to convince the buyers of the other cars one bit.
Quit quoting magazines and what not. You made your choice in your car. Don't have to make other people believe in your choice.
Here's my take on the cars.
Passat
------
A Passat buyer will not consider an Accord or Camry because they want to feel special in their car. They want their car to reflect their taste and choice. They want *luxury* over other things and they want the feel of a european car
Camry
-----
A Camry buyer buys this car because it is quiet and gives a comfortable non-obtrusive ride. Top notch fit and finish. More comfortable with the Japanese (specifically Toyota) reliability
Accord
------
Accord buyers are the rebels. Jack of all trades but master of none. It rewards the driver better driving experience over the Camry and Passat but it doesn't look the best. It gives you good performance but cheapens the interior over the other cars to save cost. It doesn't drive as quiet nor as sturdy as the Passat but it is good compromise bet. isolation and interacton. Often buy Accord over Camry because buyer feels Accord is more sporty. Once threaten will often points out the unreliability of the European/Korean/American cars. In this case the Passat.
Does that sum it all up??
BTW, CD and RT are widely regarded a mags that place far more emphasis on ride and handling, and both ended up picking the Accord. Now let's see you repeat yourself.
mikek37, i'm just defending my car after some people called it a "piece of junk."
Can we sum up?
If you like the Passat, be sure to buy a spare for parts. Keep a flashlight handy for when the lights fail. And make sure you have your magazine references right (actually, that goes for both camps).
If you like the Accord, be sure to get the optional horn that bleats like a sheep; it can only be obtained with the appliance white styling package. And do not seriously argue that you bought the car for its handling.
If you can earnestly debate which of these 2 cars is "better", you are one dogmatic individual. As has been already mentioned, they appeal to 2 groups of people who are alike only in their hard-headedness.
Besides, everyone knows the Saturn Ion is the only choice in this field...right :-)??
CL
Oh my god, I bought car A. Did I make the right decision?? Maybe I should visit all the websites, like edmunds.com and see what other people are buying. If they are not buying A, I'll convince them to buy car A, and car B and car C are junks.
Is that it??
If there's truly 1 best car out there, there would be only 1 car on the road. In an ideal world that is.
So, it is either the selected few, gifted so to say, knows what's best for everyone and all of us are idiots for buying car B and C.
All I can say is, say what you like about your car and what you dislike about your car. The car you own. Don't bad mouth the choices of cars other people made. Where are your manners??
Also, why did you forget to mention the quote from RT, where they say something like "its a strange world we live in , where a Japanese car drives like a German car and a German car that does not drive like a German car." Oh, why did I bother to ask, you always forget about them.
bj, So you are now quoting "New" mags right? They why for heaven's sake did you keep quoting the old Edmunds review for a long long time, till Automobile/CD came out? This is amazing!
We are not here to argue with and about each other. We are talking about the cars.
If there is still any reasonable debate left to be had about the merits of these three vehicles, let's hear it.
The personal comments and jabs are out of line. Some messages have been removed.
P.S. - we haven't had a single problem with the Passat after 18 months
I agree with you. Why quote what all these magazine says. Are you going to buy another car just because the magazine says the car you bought is no longer a good car?? Based on what? Marketing monies they get from a competing car??
All modern cars on the road today are safe. They are also as reliable as the next car. Just because it has a German or Korean moniker, it doesn't make it less reliable than the Japanese moniker.
What's the point of saying in every debate, when cornered, one brings up the reliability and safety to attack the other person's choice of car. Obviously these 3 cars are as SAFE and as RELIABLE as any other car out there.
Maybe this should be an Accord VS Passat forum. I don't see any complains about Camry. I think someone has something against German car makers.
Stop qouting what magazines says. Instead, let the owners of the cars, each of the 3 cars, who have spent considerable amount of time in their respective cars view their opinion. A short test drive around the block and reading what magazine reviewers say DO NOT make you qualify to give a short term evaluation of the car, let alone a long term.
Unless you are like stinkbug, who has the 2 competing cars in his garage.
Be nice now, before you give an old lady more migraines than she can take. LOL
I also sense everytime an argument comes out, some people would as a last resort say the VW is unreliable or unsafe as you pointed out.
For safety, the passat GLX V6 is listed as #1 with an excellent rating in avoidance and protection. The only other car that is excellent in both categories is the Camry in second. The Passat GLS 4cyl. is in 3rd. Once again the accord is not listed.
About the Passat, they said "Impressive crash-test results, capable and forgiving handling, and strong brakes."