The A-Class is not coming to the U.S. Smart at this time, isn't either. If Smart does come here, I don't think that it will have much an impact on Mercedes as far as prestige is concerned.
Recently I have heard nothing of MB quality problems...
As one of those people who stopped buying MBs because of reliability concerns (and bought an '05 LS), I was interested to read in Forbes that Daimler management claimed that they had addressed their reliability issues by adding more Quality Control inspectors at the end of the production runs. I don't profess to be a QC engineer, but it seems obvious to me that true reliability is something you have to engineer into every element of a car: from basic design, to specification of each part, to choice of suppliers, to construction methods, and then lastly to QC inspection. What made MBs previously considered as "built to last" was not just good final inspections that caught nagging minor build defects-- it was over-engineered parts put together with better tolerances than other cars of the day, etc.
My point is that Daimler management either doesn't get it (which is really scary), or more likely doesn't want to admit how far they have strayed from the basis of their previous success-- and how well the Japanese have figured it out and passed them by.
I just want to interject here the thought that it seems to me that in the automotive industry that a strong product (e.g., the Chrysler 300) always trumps a strong brand (MB). And that with a strong product, the brand can turn on a dime. GM it seems walks the line of having a just acceptable product line supported by a just acceptable brand. This probably is just where they want to be, recognizing that for a mass marketeer this marginally acceptable position is the sweet spot.
Curiously, in relatively high end watches the product (e.g., Rolex) can be inferior (and known as such by the cognoscenti) but be carried by the brand. This might because the buyer is buying jewelry not the functionality, engineering, or tech specs of the watch?
From the way it looks Smart has a lot of problems.
I haven't read anything yet about MB reliability improving other than some MB exec saying so. Every year they drop lower and lower in the real world surveys. Heck they ranked 31 out of 32 brands in their homeland in a recent study. There wasn't an MB that didn't have a full black circle in CR's reliability index in the last auto report. Combine that with this link off the S-class board and poor resale values and I think people need a lot more convincing than an MB exec saying they've addressed their reliability problems. As well the execs aren't even consistant. One says they still have a lot of work to do and another says they've addressed the problem. I read that they had addressed the problem two years ago also. Made me think of Ed Norton addressing a golf ball in a hillarious Honeymooner episode.
In truth you can look at what they have to do to turn things around many ways. The biggest issue they have - aside from reliability and quality - is platform sharing with Chrysler. An MB lover will die over this if it happens but the smartest business decision they can make is to platform share. Reliability and quality is a much bigger drag on their image than platform sharing ever will be.
After reading all of these stories, it is troubling because even though most of them dealt with 2000-2003 model S classes, there were even new models with problems. *Sigh*, I'm starting to wonder if MB really is serious about sorting out their issues...
Yikes !!! Is all I can say for the stories in that link you posted. These are truly depressing for a high-end luxury automobile such as MBs. Can these stories really be true ??? cos if they are true, MB is REALLY in a lotta trouble than meets the eye. 3 years to fall from grace ? With these anecdotal evidence, I'd lean to it being more likely to happen, although I'd not imagine it possible to a great marque like MB.
Poor quality, poor reliability, poor dealership experience, and POOR customer service from MB corporate.... How can they ever solve ALL of these quickly to rescue the brand ??? One can only hope that someone at MB will have a magic wand to turn things around quickly before its too late !!!!!
There were two posts in there that really made me read them more than once. The first was the S55 slip sliding on wet roads. I know a guy who has the same problem with an E55. He's scared to death to drive the car in the rain or on a day it will rain. He was also told it was the tires by the dealer. So do you swap out to non-performanve tires on a car you bought purely for performance?? Or you watch weather reports just to see if you can use the car? Too many AMG's are on the road for it to be the tires, so he must have a bad car. But he had problems with the E430 he had before this too. He's praying the new Lexus GS is a great performer because he wants to dump the E55 for it when it comes out. He's one of those I know that is done with Benz.
The other one is the guy Chris that left the car at the dealer. My old boss had an E430 4-matic in his family that had the brakes fail him on the Henry Hudson parkway. I posted about this incident before. This is actually the E I drove many times and posted about in the past - wondering what excitement I was missing out on in an MB. The car was good but nothing I'd write home about. I posted often, based on this experience that it was my opinion that the driving experience people sometimes attributed as so great was a psycholigical one. Anyway the brakes gave this guy problems a number of times and when they failed completely he had the car towed to his dealer (from the Henry Hudson while he waited in the rain) and told the dealer to have MB stop billing him for the lease because he wasn't paying it anymore. He is a powerful and very wealthy guy who got a letter from MB HQ apologizing for the incident and they did terminate the lease. He's done with them also. He's an Audi lover these days and swapped out for an A6 for his wife. Lost touch on a regular basis - so I don't know how well the A6 held up. When I do see him we always talk business or sports anyway.
The one thing that really gets me are the dealer comments and I hardly think it is limited to MB. I am sure it happens with bad BMW or Lexus cars as well. People buying these cars are smart, high income and in some cases wealthy. But the dealers give them responses like they are idiots and children.
The one thing that really gets me are the dealer comments and I hardly think it is limited to MB. I am sure it happens with bad BMW or Lexus cars as well
I agree.
BUT, MBs still have strong residuals than Lexus according to this list.
That's a looking forward list and is more based on leases being issued. If you had done such an analysis in 2001 on a 3 year 36K basis it would have read 67% for the S-500, 62% for the LS430, 59% for the A8 and 68% for the E430. I know those well because in 2001 those were the cars I looked at and got all the details on firsthand. Now here is what happened by 2004 in the real world with real prices and not the residuals built into the leases. S500 - 54%, LS430 - 63%, A8 53% an E430 53%. I went back and checked before I leased again last year. Sometime in April I posted that data in detailed post. Bimmers hold their value well also - usually 60-63% - except for the 7-series.
I'm not going to sit here and defend Mercedes, but the website cited in post #7439 looks a little suspicious. For one thing, a lot of those posts seem to have a similar writing style and rhythm. I believe the owner of that site got burned and has a big bone to pick. Read "About Us" and let me know what you think. Does anyone know how easy it is to throw up a site like that?
Glad to see this place back in action. Keep it up!
Keep in mind. High-performance Z-rated tires are horrible in snow and rain. I have them on my Boxster. I can't tell you how dangerous they are on anything but dry roads. I would not be inclined use these tires on a year-round daily-driver sedan, no matter how high-performance it is. And if I did, it would be for fair-weather driving with EXTREMELY cautious bad-weather cruising. Snow, forget about it, they're suicide.
The problem with some people who buy high-performance cars is that they expect them to drive like low-performance cars in bad weather. High-performance drivers know when to reel it in and what their equipment is capable of. This is one of the reasons why Porsches are tucked away for the winter. And the ones that aren't have all-season or winter swaps. It's no different for sedans.
If the suitcase-with-money episode ran for a full hour I'm sure there would have been a MB in the picture. Well, that was circa 1955 maybe a Caddy. I see Norton in a Ford Sunliner, 3-speed on the column. Chevy Biscayne perhaps?
I've had 5 MB's and not had any major problems with any of them. that includes 2 ML's. also when it comes to the E55 and S55....those cars are putting out close to 500HP...traction on wet
roads will certainly not be perfect with the high performance tires they are sold with.
as for Consumer Reports. take a good look at the cars they rate. many of the expensive high end cars they never test. Consumer Reports is a good source if your buying a minivan or camry...that's about it.
as for MB loosing position in brand supremacy to Lexus. think again. Lexus may sell more vehicles in the USA than MB but look closer to what vehicles they sell. Lexus has only 3 Lexus specific made vehicles. the SC, LS, and GS. every other Lexus is a re badged Toyota. for the past 2 years they couldn't give away GS's and SC's. and the LS has finally caught up to the S class in sales...and the S class is 6 years old!!!
not that a Toyota isn't a quality vehicle but shouldn't a luxury brand be selling upscale luxury vehicles...ie. E55, S600, SLK, CL's...etc. MB's lineup is broad and satisfies customers that even BMW can't.
the last thing anyone should do is underestimate
MB. not just 2 years ago people were ridiculing Schrempp for purchasing Chrysler. who's laughing now?
I think MB does have a reliability problem at this point..And I'm sure they're working on it..If cars like the new SLK are representative of MB's future then I think they'll be fine. But they do have to revise their business model. It doesn't matter how broad their lineup is, it's the financials that matter..MB as of yet hasn't produced solid numbers.
Lexus has more than 3 "Lexus specific cars" The ES only has 25% commonality with a Camry..It's called Platform Sharing..That's like me calling an E Class a 300C..The RX is also a "pure" Lexus..The GS is an old car and the SC is a niche product at best..They shouldn't have messed up the last gen SC..
Jaguar doesn't do anything that you have classified as "upscale" yet they are considered an upper class marque..I don't see what's so upscale about the SLK and CLK..If you meant to say the SL and CL then I'd agree with you..We all know Price does not equal Quality in any respect...
I've always maintained that Lexus is for the informed consumer, not one who wishes to engage in bull sessions about how expensive their car is..Case in point: Bill Gates is a known owner of LS400/430's..As the richest man in the world, he could care less about status.
As long as my car holds its value well, drives well past 10 yrs, and the customer service is good, I'll remain a Lexus customer. I did consider a MB but the dealership experience and reliability concerns were enough to dissuade me..Perhaps your experience has been fine, but JDP surveys have a much wider sample.
Lexus just doesn't reach high enough. the LS430 is their top of the line vehicle. a fine car but no comparison to the top of the line MB's. as for the RX...it is a highlander in disguise. and the ES...it is pure Camry. as for the E being a 300C...the parts used in the C are from the last generation E class. MB and Chrysler don't swap platforms and just change the name and add some wood interior pieces. as for what Bill Gates drives who cares. his car buying decision would not affect my choice one bit. what brand laptop he purchases would be of more interest. buying an MB has its fair share of status but to think thats the only reason a person purchases one is unfair stereotyping....like saying a Lexus is a poor mans Benz. both are nice automobiles but MB still has the leg up on Lexus..imho. one thing i think most would agree to is that nobody bends metal as nice as MB. no bland designs in their line up.
No one is laughing. Quite the contrary. Many are crying. The brand is in a downward spiral and is ridiculed far more than it is praised. The only praisers these days seem to be some of the auto rags. The press had a great time with Shrempp's $400K S-class being stolen in broad daylight also and the nav system being unable to locate it. The business end is horrendous and has been sliding as well and the company is barely profitable. CR - believe it or not - it's up to you. I think 8 or 9 out of 10 believe it though. Plus its findings are supported in many places including indepedent German studies.
Not sure what you mean about the LS catchng up to the S-class in sales. It's badly outsold the S-class in 2001 thru 2004. The S was revised in 2000 and the LS in 2001, so I don't get your age issue either. The S will be revised again in 2006 and the LS in 2007. As for Lexus - look at the financial clout of Toyota and what is coming from Lexus with a worldwide rollout rather than the past. I'm looking at the business end of things right now, not past heritage. In business Toyota has badly outplayed Daimler in the past 5-7 years. By the way the last time I looked the SC sold about 12k cars a year in the US which is about the same as the SL.
Having high end >$100K cars isn't the sole definition of "High End" That's just pure snobbery. Jaguar's XJ Vanden Plas is around 80K these days, yet it is outperformed by LS430 hands down. It goes to show price isn't commiserate with competitiveness. Of course "status" is a big MB attraction..Have you seen their "Unlike Any Other" media campaigns lately? They show pictures of people posing next to their cars..It's probably the dumbest thing I've ever seen. If Lexus ever does anything like that I'll sell both of mine and buy a Camry.
Even the Autorags consider the LS a worthy competitor to the 7-Series, S Class, and A8..The last C/D comparo ranked the LS the top pick..I think the Motor Trend had it second behind the Audi..The Lexus detractors love to bash the car on marque and driving dyanamics..Last time I checked, marque is more fodder for BS sessions that anything else..In the case of BMW I'd defintely say there is a big difference in dynamics.
When I went to the MB dealer to look at S Class cars, I noted the sticker on the S500 is 90K with all taxes..Granted the S500 probably has more toys than the LS430 Ultra but does it deliver 30K more of product? Not at all. I thought the S was a nice car, but the practical aspects of the purchase decision made me buy yet another Lexus..Pure and simple, the Lexus is a thinking (wo)man's car..It'll take that $30K and keep it in the market. Seeing as I only paid 18K for my new one (With trade of my old) it will probably pay for my next two LS cars.
If you were to do some research, you'll find the ES330 shares 25% of its parts with the Camry. Drive the two and you'll note the difference. The RX came out before the Highlander and definitely bears no physical resemblance to the Highlander. So what if the glass has Toyota written on it? I'm not buying it for the name!
Stylewise, I don't think any automaker is producing anything great looking at the moment..The S had a nice profile, but lacks the grand look of the W126..The SL is an attention getter..But the others are nothing special..Jaguar had it right with the previous XJ, but now only the XK is appealing.
At the end of the day, it's the balance sheets that indicate success..Lexus on its' own has been a winner since 1990. Toyota is probably one of the most profitable brands out there..You can't argue with that.
If to you the body design is the one and only cryteria for a High End Lux Car...MB is for you but maybe Jag would be even better...
If Lux means Quiet, Smooth, Power, Safety, and Reliability...and on those rare occasions unequaled dealer performance...Maybe you want to think about an LS430...The ultra is around $70,000 Has every creature comfort and matches up nicely to any $110,000+ S600.....But more importantly...EVERY TIME you turn the Key it goes and when you are in the worst part of town or the the most deserted road in the world you can count on it to get you where you want to go....
Days in the shop...Without your car...and wasting your time...do not spell Luxury.
"They do make Z-rated summer-only tires that are great in the rain... Many, many of them."
Thanks for pointing that out. Actually a colleague of mine has them on a 540 with SP. His are extremely noisy. I wish we could try out tires like we do cars.
The S600 has 500HP!...the LS290? also the S class is only available in the US in the Long version. when it comes to age between the two...the S class has not had one change to the exterior sheet metal. the LS had the entire front end massaged to be more appealing. that is what i based my age comment on.
as for the Camry and the ES...they are basically the same car. same engine, platform and transmission. sure they nice up the ES a bit but in the end it is a well optioned Camry....and there is nothing wrong with that ...the Camry is a fine automobile. for this discussion though it brings about the point that Lexus is still a young brand that fills its showrooms with re badged Toyota's. regardless which vehicle came first the RX or the Highlander...what's the difference they are both one and the same. Lexus's lion share of sales are from the RX and the ES. both of which are basically Toyota's. again not a bad thing but is this a luxury brand?
when i view luxury brands Lexus is in my mind more equal to Infiniti and Acura while MB, BMW, and Audi sit on a higher level. part of this is the fact that the German brands push their flagships to much higher levels than the Japanese. more HP, luxury, and intriguing design.
calling the Lexus "the thinking mans car" is stereotyping. are you saying that people who purchase Mercedes Benz's ...don't think?
for some reason i have never identified myself with an automobile to the point that i would feel better about myself if the companies balance sheet looked good. i either like the car or i don't!
... the last thing anyone should do is underestimate MB. not just 2 years ago people were ridiculing Schrempp for purchasing Chrysler. who's laughing now?
Who's laughing now ? Certainly not MB execs, with reduced pay checks and loss of image and, dare I say it, loss of the MB shine ?
Who's laughing now ? Certainly not share holders of DCX, if buying DCX means banking on the 300, and not the myriad of high-end MB automobiles that earned them their reputation.
Who's laughing now ? Certainly not the MB owners with electronic issues and having to deal with uncooperative MB dealerships and corporate personnel.
Who's laughing now ? Certainly NOT Schrempp, the CEO ! I don't see him gloating on the numbers coming out of DCX these days !!
But there is always hope to correct problems. If I were an MB exec, I'd certainly work to correct the ills that befall the brand, perceived or real, and work towards gaining customer confidence, and investor confidence to build back the reputation and put back on the glossy shine of owning a prestigious MB automobile.
That's what I'll do instead of making excuses and burying my head in the proverbial sand of denial ....
You still ignore the fact that the ES by parts content shares 25% commonality with a Camry. That does not make it the same car!! Try and back up your opinions with facts for a change.
I don't know where you get your info from, but the RX in no way is a Highlander. The RX debuted in 1998. Highlander came along a few years later. I don't see the resemblace sorry..The RX is at least twice the price of a Highlander..I've been in both and there isn't anything identical.
Even the autorags disagree with your assessment of Lexus..Why is it that they rank the LS higher than most of those brands? In the last C/D comparo, the LS won..It came in second to the Audi in another. If your "opinion" was correct, why do diehard performance fans like C/D put the LS against these cars in the same place?
What higher levels are you talking about? Electronics that don't work? Complicated interfaces that befuddle even Car and Driver? Seven Speed transimissions that have a 4% improvement on Fuel Economy? (Mind you even 911's don't have that!)
Have you noticed the correlation of the introduction of these systems with reduced reliability? JD Power has ranked Lexus No 1 for seven years running! The hybrid technology is more of a innovation than iDrive will ever be. Having just been through the car shopping experience, the Lexus had everything MB, Audi, and BMW did (and more), save the iDrive nonsense. Luxury? You obviously have never been in a LS430..It's cabin trumps anything save a Jaguar Vandenplas.
Design? What's so great about BMW's Bangle design? Audi is okay, and MB is nothing special.. Jaguar rightly holds the award for that...The only advantage a German car has over Lexus is Handling ability. (BMW) I don't see anything special about an Audi or MB...From my perspective, the 15K premium I was about to pay on the S430 was merely for the MB prestige and the 4 Matic.
I think calling the Lexus a "thinking man's car" is a fair label..Lexus owners look at the Objective statistics and make their decision. We examine things such as reliability, depreciation, safety, customer service surveys, etc to evalute our purchase..To a Lexus owner our time is money, we don't have the patience to deal with gimmicks laden cars nor do we relish the idea of dealing with arrogant dealers and suspect cars. Mind you a fair number of Lexus owners are former MB owners. Ever wonder why they switched?
when i view luxury brands Lexus is in my mind more equal to Infiniti and Acura while MB, BMW, and Audi sit on a higher level
Really ? And tell me who is the #1 LUXURY seller in the US market ? The answer ain't MB, BMW or Audi either. If Lexus is not a luxury car maker, then MB isn't either.
Bash Lexus all you like, its kicking the others you-know-what, at least in the NA market, and is poised to expand globally. Toyota is forecasting strong performances in the next 5 years, and all signs point to them outperforming their competition from here forward. Guess we'll see, won't we ?
ok...the Camry and the ES have the same engine and drive train, same platform. what is so hard to understand? sitting in a vehicle does not tell the entire story.
I've driven many Lexus automobiles. their interior is easily more user friendly than the 7. when you compare the materials and the level of quality it is my opinion just not on the level of the German competition.
no matter how you cut it the fact that MB even offers 4 matic is a big plus. the breadth of MB's line up is so far beyond Lexus.
as for MB owners switching?? what does this mean? people try new brands out all of the time. I've owned MB, BMW, and currently and Audi. does that mean i will never drive another brand again? you take brand loyalty to a level that is counter to being a "thinking man".
when it comes to automobiles...higher end automobiles i am always amazed that when a person chooses a Lexus they let the statistics of others make the decision for them. why not just purchase a car you really like? all cars are manufactured very well today. to have to justify a purchase that has a bland design
Lotta desperate sounding Euro cheerleaders here. Sounding a little threatened again I see.
Actually Lexus on a whole is better than 90% of todays low quality German product. Mercedes has rotten quality and finally admitted it. BMW now has bad styling and bad reliability and Audi can't move product past 80K units a year here making it near dead last in market. Though, the new swallow-me-whole grill should help that.
The LS 430 in ultra luxury form is better than S430 or S500 combined. Fit/finish and quality of materials and electronics/ ergonomics ridicule the once shining 3-point star thats now in deep doo-doo. S class aint nothing unless its on MTV Cribs with 20 inchers. Audi A8's a better car. The ES330 is more luxurious and content rich then the vanilla looking 50K E class. Lexus doesn't have an SUV that was designed in the Cold War era either and pretend to charge 70K for it. What a joke!
Just read that Mercedes is now so afraid of the upcoming new super Lexus model threat, that their going to even offer a hybrid S class version probably licensed from Toyota. Who's copying who now? Lexus will offer a LWB S600 level car next round in the 600 hp range using hybrid technology.
The strong Japanese luxury brands should nicely steam roll and flatten the sick & washed up German auto industry just like the Big 2-1/2 were. Mercedes has their priorities sraight you know and is turning it around fighting back. They just unveiled new Nano paint technology to prevent further scratching. I agree 100% that Mercedes, BMW and Audi do sit on a higher level that would be the repair shop lift.
yes they sell more units than their German competition....in the US only. the only part that they leave out is that most of the cars they sell are ES330s and Rx330's. hardly luxury cars. more near luxury. maybe a new segment should be established..."Near Luxury".
There is such a segment for those cars "Entry Level Luxury" You pointed out that the ES shares the frame, engine and transmission with the Camry..Does that consititute 100% of the car? It does sound more like 25%..I've driven both cars and know the difference between the two..The defect rate of an ES is much lower than that of a Camry. Keep in mind the ES is assembled solely in Japan whilst a big chunk of Camry's are made in Kentucky.
As far as quality..I just drove a S Class..There was a great deal of plastic in that car..Hardly befitting for a 77K sedan. The interior was nothing special..The LS has better wood accents and softer leather..The Ultra is even better than my car..My 1992 LS400 has been trouble free to this date..I don't think the Euro cars can match that kind of reliability.
Not all cars are built equally..Have a look at JDP and see where those German marques rank..It's sad when Jaguar is the highest ranked nameplate..I don't buy cars on a whim. I actually do "Really like" my Lexus' cars. I don't have the time or patience to deal with any quirks..Had I, a Jaguar would have been in my garage a long time ago. Hence my label of Lexus as a "Thinking Man's Car"
that, within reason, more money buys more car (or, at least, more luxury options, better leather and sound system) I am amused at the ongoing discussion on which car has more status...are we so shallow, hollow and insecure that we must have everyone else think we have status because we purchased a 2005 (fill-in-your-car)...I can appreciate JD Power on defects-per-car as one parameter for purchase, altho it does not say what happens after 3-4 years when most cars will actually break down and cost money to repair if out of warranty...I appreciate the quality in MB, Lexus, Audi, Acura and many others, but if ANYBODY thinks I will attribute status to them because they drive the S500, or A8L, or LS430UL, you folks need counseling badly...status (or esteem from others) is something you earn by what you are and what you do, not by something you buy...after all, many of the cars you suggest are the vehicles driven by the drug dealers of the inner city, and if that is the status you want, you have more money than brains...then again, that describes Teddy Kennedy...
the only part that they leave out is that most of the cars they sell are ES330s and Rx330's. hardly luxury cars
Hmmm.... Let's correct you, again.
What is MB's best seller in the US ? Its not the S-class, is it ? How 'bout BMW ?, what is their best seller ? Once again, it's not the 7 ! How about Audi ? Well... not the A8 either. See how your argument falls flat on its face ?
Facts, ma'am, just facts....
Read sapparo's post once again. See anything in there you'd like to correct ?
That is hardly the case..The discussion erupted needlessly as someone attempted to slam Lexus. We're just defending our cars. Lexus owners are a very loyal group, and we love our cars..Not for status, but because of how they treat us.
My point is that the Lexus lineup is probably the best objective purchase you can make. If you read my posts, you'll see I could care less about status. At this point in my life I certainly have nothing to prove.
The argument is this: The LS430 is competitive with any German counterpart out there. Pure and simple. This has nothing to do with image or whatever. JDP long term surveys do indicate problems past the warranty period..They found that a 6 yr old LS400 was more reliable than a new BMW..Go figure.
I'm sorry but I guess you missed the grille changes on the S-class in 2003. Look, the major body change is now every 6 years and the in-between adjustment is 3 years. If you think only the LS was updated you are dead wrong. The S had the minor facelift in 2003, the LS in 2004 and the 7 this year. If you think the 2004 LS is a major design change then you may be the only one on earth who thinks that. Amazing how people only see what they want to to see.
Lexus simply only sells well in North America. In Europe Lexus has masterd only 20,000 units for the ENTIRE EU, while Audi alone has managed over 554,000 units, BMW, 579,000 units, and MB around 680,000 units. World-Wide Lexus cannot come close to the three main "World" Luxury Carmakers. Audi alone outsells Lexus 4 to 1 worldwide and it isn't sitting still in the US any longer. It is producing some of the BEST cars easily in the world along with its competition. I am not bashing Lexus as at all, but North America skews the perspective in terms of Lexus' success. Having seriously driven the top luxury vehicles in many road tests including the Phaeton, the LS430 has a long way to go to have the same driving dynamics as the Germans. Audi's interiors and fit and finish easily trump Lexus as proven in many reviews around the world. Lexus cannot rely strictly on it JD Power ratings if it is to be a success in the world. The Germans have recommitted themselves to the total package as recently evidenced by Consumer Reports recommending the A8L as best in its class with the least of amount of problems per 100. This rise will continue, so Lexus must create vehicles that can match Audi, MB, and BMW's driving dynamics, design, motorsport reputation (do your homework to see Audi's legendary race history), technology, and pure passion as displayed by Audi, MB, and BMW owners towards their vehicles. When Lexus does this, then it will join the ranks of a "World" luxury carmaker.
Call up the 2004 A8, 7, S, and LS. You'll find that, even ignoring the quality-related issues and focusing instead on performance, comfort, features, style, and overall appeal, actual owners of A8s and Ss don't like their cars all that much, on average, whereas owners of 7s and LSs do. To me that means the unit sales "dominance" you claim for the S isn't going to last forever, unless driven by status alone.
MB didn't change any sheet metal. when the LS was updated the hood and front fenders were changed. essentially the S class has on the exterior remained unchanged.
why do people who purchase a Lexus need MB,Audi,BMW to fail in order to feel validated in their purchase?
Be greatful that Lexus has only targeted America so far. That is about to change big-time in two years. By the end of the decade your touted brands will have lost some very serious marketshare points and will be hard pressed financially. Well heck, MB and VW have a boatload of financial problems already. One had to change the top CEO position because the former CEO lost his mind with the phaeton and was running the company into the ground and the other just changed the CEO position at the MB division level for a cost cutter for cryin out loud. I hope you understand what that means.
Now - you are kidding me that you think the LS had a major redesign change in 2004. I hope so because the conversation is plain ludicrous. MB changed the grill and went to a 7 speed tranny and Lexus sharpened a few body panels and went to 6 speeds. The body styles went unchanged otherwise. Let's get real here - one body style is in its 6th year and the other is in its 5th.
Also when did CR ever find the A8 having the best reliability? I never saw it nor did I see them highly recommend the car.
Justification - You mean I need to justify buying or leasing a car that wins every important award on the planet year after year after year etc etc etc. ad infinitum. Don't think so.
after all, many of the cars you suggest are the vehicles driven by the drug dealers of the inner city, and if that is the status you want, you have more money than brains...then again, that describes Teddy Kennedy
Normally, I won't bother responding to someone this misguided (and with his politics on his sleeves, to boot), but maybe you can learn something afterall...
Drug dealers drive MBs and Bentleys, how 'bout Fortune 500 CEOs ? They drive around in Kias, I suppose...
I suppose the Rolls Royces, Aston Martins, Ferraris, Porsches, Bentleys, Lamboghinis, Maybachs, etc... are just cars for the masses, right ???? I guess you've never had to fork over $350 large ones for a Maybach 62 ? Or have had to put down a deposit for a $750K Ferrari Enzo ? I guess these cars are NOT status cars..... If YOU don't believe that high-end lux cars include STATUS in their pricing and purchasing, then you are the one with more money than brains....
how my screen name was tagged to it. maybe a moderator could straighten it out.
read my posts i said "update". Lexus changed the front end because the car was just too bland.
MB never reshaped any metal...their design was attractive from the start.
everyone seems to forget that the S class alone offers 4 engines, active suspensions, awd, swb(not in us), lwb. for as nice as the LS 430 is it can't compare with the variety and luxury that the S class offers.
all this ceo nonsense...what do i care. should that persuade me to purchase a Lexus? some insecurity going in some of these posts!
Yeah-don't you just hate it when those unattributed quotes somehow slip into your posts? Regarding the A8L as best in class with least amount of problems per 100 vehicles: As far as I know, Consumer Reports does not get that specific with individual cars in that fashion. They will generalize across the brand. In the April 2004 issue of Consumer Reports, Audi was rated below 22 other automakers for problems per 100 vehicles for new 2003 vehicles-the latest published data from this particular magazine. Next month CR will have new data on the new 2004 vehicles' reliability.
when the LS was updated the hood and front fenders were changed.
Just to clarify the LS releases to date:
1st-gen: 1990 - 1995
2nd-gen: 1996 - 2000
3rd-gen: 2001 - date
The 2004 release was a facelift, not a re-do. The next LS re-design is due out in the Summer/Fall of 2006 as an MY2007 release. That would be 6 MYs in-between the last release, similar to the S-class.
Lexus was created for the most profitable car market in the world: the U.S. Its cars are mainly geared for U.S. tastes. Until this year, there wasn't even a Lexus brand in their home turf, Japan.
All those BMWs, MBs, and Audis sold in Europe, most of them are the cheap models with four cylinder engines. All the 5's and E's sold to taxi companies are good for sales as well.
In the U.S., Lexus still has to catch MB and BMW in cachet. But it has definitely passed Audi, IMO. Most Audis sold are A4's with the 1.8L engine.
When I logged on I saw 57 new posts and I thought, gee they must be talking about something very interesting. Wrong. Same old frankly tired stuff about MB and it's problems.
ljflx,
My friend we have been over this over and over. Most car buyers couldn't care any less about a car company's financials. I'm very curious to know where and how you gauge status and how you're able to predict that Mercedes is going to fall behind BMW in status, which they haven't done since BMW was born, and how they're going to fall behind a made up nameplate like Lexus that doesn't have a sigle car for the enthusiast buyer to even get excited about.
Next I'm reading the hilarious story about an E55 owner has a problem with slipping in the rain. Let me see, 469hp, 516lb-ft of torque, summer tires...sounds like he should be able to floor this puppy in the rain. In all honesty I guess I wouldn't expect you to understand that any hi-po car with that much power isn't going to operate at its best in the rain. I can't believe you think there is a problem with the car? Anyone who owns a Corvette, 911, M5, M3 or any other high strung, high powered car has trouble with tires in some way or another, whether it be rain, snow, abnormal wear or just plain noise. The Japanese 350Z is so bad with tire wear that there is currently class action suit against Nissan about it. I'm assuming you didn't know this? Surely you didn't miss all the SC430 owners complaing about run-flats on their SC430? Yet, on this board even tires have become an exclusive Mercedes-Benz problem. I won't even mention anything about skills when dealing with a car with so much power.
The reliability issue - if there was ever such a thing as beating a dead horse. Mercedes isn't going to show any reliability improvements until the cars being built in 2004, 2005 on onward are judged 3 years later, or whenever they said they made improvment. For 2005 I'll save you the trouble of posting come April, the 2002 models are going to suck on the precious surveys. No need to look for any improvements on the long-term surveys.
I guess someone here had a talk with Mercedes excutive to know that they're afraid of Lexus doing a 100K sports car. To me a 100K, 500hp 2-seat Lexus would be the most irrelevant car possible in a Lexus showroom. Who's going to buy it? Surely not your typical Lexus owner, and in its current form of style it surely isn't going to convert any Porsche, Ferrarri, SL, Corvette, Aston-Martin or Bentley buyers.
Now the A-Class and Smart are image problems with Mercedes too? Smart is a seperate brand entirely. You know like Toyota is supposed to be seperate from Lexus. Smarts don't look anything like Mercedes, unlike Toyota's Camry Solara and the Lexus SC430 and now the Avalon which has a Lexus interior if there ever was such a thing. Talk about hurting the image. Why would anyone buy a ES330 over the more powerful, larger, same gush interior Avalon? Smart doesn't even compete with any Mercedes models, unlike Toyota and Lexus which have some overlap.
The A-Class first came out in 1997 and it was a sales hit and it hasn't done a thing to the Mercedes' image and the second generation that just went on sale in 2004 has been getting great reviews all across Europe. When is Mercedes image supposed to fall because of the A-Class, when the 3rd and 4th generation models appear in 2010, or 2016? The new A-Class is even built like a proper Mercedes. Read up on the car before making so many assumptions.
"Not sure what you mean about the LS catchng up to the S-class in sales. It's badly outsold the S-class in 2001 thru 2004."
Does the fact that the LS430 starts at 56K compared to 70K+ plus for the S-Class have anything to do with this at all? I'm not even saying it is the sole reason, that it is a factor. Everyone doesn't lease.
"By the way the last time I looked the SC sold about 12k cars a year in the US which is about the same as the SL.
Considering that the SL costs more than 25K more than the SC430 the should have sold more than the SL by far, and 12K is wrong, it sold 9,708 last year and the SL sold 12,885. (Source: http://www.aicautosite.com/)
"BEIJING, Jan. 25 -- Toyota Motor Corp, Japan's leading automaker, said yesterday it started recalling 1,717 Lexus vehicles sold on the Chinese mainland due to possible fuel pump defects.
The recall will affect Lexus LS430 sedans made between July 29, 2003, and March 8, 2004, Toyota Motor (China) Limited said in a statement.
The company, which is based in Hong Kong and responsible for Toyota's exports to China, applied to the mainland's General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine to recall the sedans.
"Impellers in the fuel pumps may be distorted. If the condition is serious, pumps will not work and result in the explosion of the engine," the company said.
Authorized Lexus dealerships on the mainland, whose numbers will jump from six to 14 by the middle of this year, will help owners of Lexus 430 sedans replace their cars' fuel pumps free of charge.
The recall will end on April 30, the company said.
This is Toyota's second recall of Lexus vehicles on the mainland in seven months.
Last July, Toyota ordered back in 1,489 Lexus LS430 sedans due to problems with the model's transmission.
Toyota is currently importing and selling the Lexus LS430, GS300, RX300 and IS200 on the mainland and will launch the Lexus GS430 later this year.
Analysts say auto recalls will become more frequent in China with growing vehicle sales and the implementation of compulsory vehicle recall regulations last October.
A number of other foreign automakers have also been forced to order mainland recalls over the past year, including Mitsubishi Motors, Mercedes-Benz and Volvo.
Automakers in China - including Sino-foreign joint ventures - which have shunned auto recalls in the past due to a lack of legislation, have also begun recalling defective products.
Yes, you said Mercedes was either in or heading towards financial trouble, thing is no one here ever cared enough about that side of the business (I know I didn't) to argue it then or now. They'll suffer until they right the ship and just like any other company their backs will be pressed to the wall and they'll do what they have to survive. Nissan was in the same exact boat. None of this will change the way I feel about their products.
Comments
Recently I have heard nothing of MB quality problems...
My point is that Daimler management either doesn't get it (which is really scary), or more likely doesn't want to admit how far they have strayed from the basis of their previous success-- and how well the Japanese have figured it out and passed them by.
Curiously, in relatively high end watches the product (e.g., Rolex) can be inferior (and known as such by the cognoscenti) but be carried by the brand. This might because the buyer is buying jewelry not the functionality, engineering, or tech specs of the watch?
I haven't read anything yet about MB reliability improving other than some MB exec saying so. Every year they drop lower and lower in the real world surveys. Heck they ranked 31 out of 32 brands in their homeland in a recent study. There wasn't an MB that didn't have a full black circle in CR's reliability index in the last auto report. Combine that with this link off the S-class board and poor resale values and I think people need a lot more convincing than an MB exec saying they've addressed their reliability problems. As well the execs aren't even consistant. One says they still have a lot of work to do and another says they've addressed the problem. I read that they had addressed the problem two years ago also. Made me think of Ed Norton addressing a golf ball in a hillarious Honeymooner episode.
http://www.mercedes-benz-usa.com/s_class.php
In truth you can look at what they have to do to turn things around many ways. The biggest issue they have - aside from reliability and quality - is platform sharing with Chrysler. An MB lover will die over this if it happens but the smartest business decision they can make is to platform share. Reliability and quality is a much bigger drag on their image than platform sharing ever will be.
After reading all of these stories, it is troubling because even though most of them dealt with 2000-2003 model S classes, there were even new models with problems. *Sigh*, I'm starting to wonder if MB really is serious about sorting out their issues...
Poor quality, poor reliability, poor dealership experience, and POOR customer service from MB corporate.... How can they ever solve ALL of these quickly to rescue the brand ??? One can only hope that someone at MB will have a magic wand to turn things around quickly before its too late !!!!!
The other one is the guy Chris that left the car at the dealer. My old boss had an E430 4-matic in his family that had the brakes fail him on the Henry Hudson parkway. I posted about this incident before. This is actually the E I drove many times and posted about in the past - wondering what excitement I was missing out on in an MB. The car was good but nothing I'd write home about. I posted often, based on this experience that it was my opinion that the driving experience people sometimes attributed as so great was a psycholigical one. Anyway the brakes gave this guy problems a number of times and when they failed completely he had the car towed to his dealer (from the Henry Hudson while he waited in the rain) and told the dealer to have MB stop billing him for the lease because he wasn't paying it anymore. He is a powerful and very wealthy guy who got a letter from MB HQ apologizing for the incident and they did terminate the lease. He's done with them also. He's an Audi lover these days and swapped out for an A6 for his wife. Lost touch on a regular basis - so I don't know how well the A6 held up. When I do see him we always talk business or sports anyway.
The one thing that really gets me are the dealer comments and I hardly think it is limited to MB. I am sure it happens with bad BMW or Lexus cars as well. People buying these cars are smart, high income and in some cases wealthy. But the dealers give them responses like they are idiots and children.
I agree.
BUT, MBs still have strong residuals than Lexus according to this list.
http://edmunds.nytimes.com/reviews/list/top10/103629/article.html
There is still light at the end of the tunnel for MBs....
Glad to see this place back in action. Keep it up!
;-)
The problem with some people who buy high-performance cars is that they expect them to drive like low-performance cars in bad weather. High-performance drivers know when to reel it in and what their equipment is capable of. This is one of the reasons why Porsches are tucked away for the winter. And the ones that aren't have all-season or winter swaps. It's no different for sedans.
just a couple of thoughts on the MB thing.
I've had 5 MB's and not had any major problems with any of them. that includes 2 ML's. also when it comes to the E55 and S55....those cars are putting out close to 500HP...traction on wet
roads will certainly not be perfect with the high performance tires they are sold with.
as for Consumer Reports. take a good look at the cars they rate. many of the expensive high end cars they never test. Consumer Reports is a good source if your buying a minivan or camry...that's about it.
as for MB loosing position in brand supremacy to Lexus. think again. Lexus may sell more vehicles in the USA than MB but look closer to what vehicles they sell. Lexus has only 3 Lexus specific made vehicles. the SC, LS, and GS. every other Lexus is a re badged Toyota. for the past 2 years they couldn't give away GS's and SC's. and the LS has finally caught up to the S class in sales...and the S class is 6 years old!!!
not that a Toyota isn't a quality vehicle but shouldn't a luxury brand be selling upscale luxury vehicles...ie. E55, S600, SLK, CL's...etc. MB's lineup is broad and satisfies customers that even BMW can't.
the last thing anyone should do is underestimate
MB. not just 2 years ago people were ridiculing Schrempp for purchasing Chrysler. who's laughing now?
I think MB does have a reliability problem at this point..And I'm sure they're working on it..If cars like the new SLK are representative of MB's future then I think they'll be fine. But they do have to revise their business model. It doesn't matter how broad their lineup is, it's the financials that matter..MB as of yet hasn't produced solid numbers.
Lexus has more than 3 "Lexus specific cars" The ES only has 25% commonality with a Camry..It's called Platform Sharing..That's like me calling an E Class a 300C..The RX is also a "pure" Lexus..The GS is an old car and the SC is a niche product at best..They shouldn't have messed up the last gen SC..
Jaguar doesn't do anything that you have classified as "upscale" yet they are considered an upper class marque..I don't see what's so upscale about the SLK and CLK..If you meant to say the SL and CL then I'd agree with you..We all know Price does not equal Quality in any respect...
I've always maintained that Lexus is for the informed consumer, not one who wishes to engage in bull sessions about how expensive their car is..Case in point: Bill Gates is a known owner of LS400/430's..As the richest man in the world, he could care less about status.
As long as my car holds its value well, drives well past 10 yrs, and the customer service is good, I'll remain a Lexus customer. I did consider a MB but the dealership experience and reliability concerns were enough to dissuade me..Perhaps your experience has been fine, but JDP surveys have a much wider sample.
SV
Lexus is fine automobile no doubt.
when it comes to being a high end brand
Lexus just doesn't reach high enough. the LS430 is their top of the line vehicle. a fine car but no comparison to the top of the line MB's. as for the RX...it is a highlander in disguise. and the ES...it is pure Camry. as for the E being a 300C...the parts used in the C are from the last generation E class. MB and Chrysler don't swap platforms and just change the name and add some wood interior pieces. as for what Bill Gates drives who cares. his car buying decision would not affect my choice one bit. what brand laptop he purchases would be of more interest. buying an MB has its fair share of status but to think thats the only reason a person purchases one is unfair stereotyping....like saying a Lexus is a poor mans Benz. both are nice automobiles but MB still has the leg up on Lexus..imho. one thing i think most would agree to is that nobody bends metal as nice as MB. no bland designs in their line up.
But, of course, there are some that are terrible... including a lot of OE tires..
Cold weather is a different story... Most summer-only tires are terrible even on dry roads when the temperatures hit freezing.
regards,
kyfdx
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Not sure what you mean about the LS catchng up to the S-class in sales. It's badly outsold the S-class in 2001 thru 2004. The S was revised in 2000 and the LS in 2001, so I don't get your age issue either. The S will be revised again in 2006 and the LS in 2007. As for Lexus - look at the financial clout of Toyota and what is coming from Lexus with a worldwide rollout rather than the past. I'm looking at the business end of things right now, not past heritage. In business Toyota has badly outplayed Daimler in the past 5-7 years. By the way the last time I looked the SC sold about 12k cars a year in the US which is about the same as the SL.
Having high end >$100K cars isn't the sole definition of "High End" That's just pure snobbery. Jaguar's XJ Vanden Plas is around 80K these days, yet it is outperformed by LS430 hands down. It goes to show price isn't commiserate with competitiveness. Of course "status" is a big MB attraction..Have you seen their "Unlike Any Other" media campaigns lately? They show pictures of people posing next to their cars..It's probably the dumbest thing I've ever seen. If Lexus ever does anything like that I'll sell both of mine and buy a Camry.
Even the Autorags consider the LS a worthy competitor to the 7-Series, S Class, and A8..The last C/D comparo ranked the LS the top pick..I think the Motor Trend had it second behind the Audi..The Lexus detractors love to bash the car on marque and driving dyanamics..Last time I checked, marque is more fodder for BS sessions that anything else..In the case of BMW I'd defintely say there is a big difference in dynamics.
When I went to the MB dealer to look at S Class cars, I noted the sticker on the S500 is 90K with all taxes..Granted the S500 probably has more toys than the LS430 Ultra but does it deliver 30K more of product? Not at all. I thought the S was a nice car, but the practical aspects of the purchase decision made me buy yet another Lexus..Pure and simple, the Lexus is a thinking (wo)man's car..It'll take that $30K and keep it in the market. Seeing as I only paid 18K for my new one (With trade of my old) it will probably pay for my next two LS cars.
If you were to do some research, you'll find the ES330 shares 25% of its parts with the Camry. Drive the two and you'll note the difference. The RX came out before the Highlander and definitely bears no physical resemblance to the Highlander. So what if the glass has Toyota written on it? I'm not buying it for the name!
Stylewise, I don't think any automaker is producing anything great looking at the moment..The S had a nice profile, but lacks the grand look of the W126..The SL is an attention getter..But the others are nothing special..Jaguar had it right with the previous XJ, but now only the XK is appealing.
At the end of the day, it's the balance sheets that indicate success..Lexus on its' own has been a winner since 1990. Toyota is probably one of the most profitable brands out there..You can't argue with that.
SV
If Lux means Quiet, Smooth, Power, Safety, and Reliability...and on those rare occasions unequaled dealer performance...Maybe you want to think about an LS430...The ultra is around $70,000 Has every creature comfort and matches up nicely to any $110,000+ S600.....But more importantly...EVERY TIME you turn the Key it goes and when you are in the worst part of town or the the most deserted road in the world you can count on it to get you where you want to go....
Days in the shop...Without your car...and wasting your time...do not spell Luxury.
That "buttery" is from a PHAETON owner and former Lexus owner...
Thanks for pointing that out. Actually a colleague of mine has them on a 540 with SP. His are extremely noisy. I wish we could try out tires like we do cars.
a couple of points.
the LS430 is no way comparable to the S600.
The S600 has 500HP!...the LS290? also the S class is only available in the US in the Long version. when it comes to age between the two...the S class has not had one change to the exterior sheet metal. the LS had the entire front end massaged to be more appealing. that is what i based my age comment on.
as for the Camry and the ES...they are basically the same car. same engine, platform and transmission. sure they nice up the ES a bit but in the end it is a well optioned Camry....and there is nothing wrong with that ...the Camry is a fine automobile. for this discussion though it brings about the point that Lexus is still a young brand that fills its showrooms with re badged Toyota's. regardless which vehicle came first the RX or the Highlander...what's the difference they are both one and the same. Lexus's lion share of sales are from the RX and the ES. both of which are basically Toyota's. again not a bad thing but is this a luxury brand?
when i view luxury brands Lexus is in my mind more equal to Infiniti and Acura while MB, BMW, and Audi sit on a higher level. part of this is the fact that the German brands push their flagships to much higher levels than the Japanese. more HP, luxury, and intriguing design.
calling the Lexus "the thinking mans car" is stereotyping. are you saying that people who purchase Mercedes Benz's ...don't think?
for some reason i have never identified myself with an automobile to the point that i would feel better about myself if the companies balance sheet looked good. i either like the car or i don't!
here is a link to an article that reflects the
S classes dominance in the luxury segment.
http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2041117.007/mercedes- - /1.html
Who's laughing now ? Certainly not MB execs, with reduced pay checks and loss of image and, dare I say it, loss of the MB shine ?
Who's laughing now ? Certainly not share holders of DCX, if buying DCX means banking on the 300, and not the myriad of high-end MB automobiles that earned them their reputation.
Who's laughing now ? Certainly not the MB owners with electronic issues and having to deal with uncooperative MB dealerships and corporate personnel.
Who's laughing now ? Certainly NOT Schrempp, the CEO ! I don't see him gloating on the numbers coming out of DCX these days !!
But there is always hope to correct problems. If I were an MB exec, I'd certainly work to correct the ills that befall the brand, perceived or real, and work towards gaining customer confidence, and investor confidence to build back the reputation and put back on the glossy shine of owning a prestigious MB automobile.
That's what I'll do instead of making excuses and burying my head in the proverbial sand of denial ....
You still ignore the fact that the ES by parts content shares 25% commonality with a Camry. That does not make it the same car!! Try and back up your opinions with facts for a change.
I don't know where you get your info from, but the RX in no way is a Highlander. The RX debuted in 1998. Highlander came along a few years later. I don't see the resemblace sorry..The RX is at least twice the price of a Highlander..I've been in both and there isn't anything identical.
Even the autorags disagree with your assessment of Lexus..Why is it that they rank the LS higher than most of those brands? In the last C/D comparo, the LS won..It came in second to the Audi in another. If your "opinion" was correct, why do diehard performance fans like C/D put the LS against these cars in the same place?
What higher levels are you talking about? Electronics that don't work? Complicated interfaces that befuddle even Car and Driver? Seven Speed transimissions that have a 4% improvement on Fuel Economy? (Mind you even 911's don't have that!)
Have you noticed the correlation of the introduction of these systems with reduced reliability? JD Power has ranked Lexus No 1 for seven years running! The hybrid technology is more of a innovation than iDrive will ever be. Having just been through the car shopping experience, the Lexus had everything MB, Audi, and BMW did (and more), save the iDrive nonsense. Luxury? You obviously have never been in a LS430..It's cabin trumps anything save a Jaguar Vandenplas.
Design? What's so great about BMW's Bangle design? Audi is okay, and MB is nothing special.. Jaguar rightly holds the award for that...The only advantage a German car has over Lexus is Handling ability. (BMW) I don't see anything special about an Audi or MB...From my perspective, the 15K premium I was about to pay on the S430 was merely for the MB prestige and the 4 Matic.
I think calling the Lexus a "thinking man's car" is a fair label..Lexus owners look at the Objective statistics and make their decision. We examine things such as reliability, depreciation, safety, customer service surveys, etc to evalute our purchase..To a Lexus owner our time is money, we don't have the patience to deal with gimmicks laden cars nor do we relish the idea of dealing with arrogant dealers and suspect cars. Mind you a fair number of Lexus owners are former MB owners. Ever wonder why they switched?
SV
Really ? And tell me who is the #1 LUXURY seller in the US market ? The answer ain't MB, BMW or Audi either. If Lexus is not a luxury car maker, then MB isn't either.
Bash Lexus all you like, its kicking the others you-know-what, at least in the NA market, and is poised to expand globally. Toyota is forecasting strong performances in the next 5 years, and all signs point to them outperforming their competition from here forward. Guess we'll see, won't we ?
I've driven many Lexus automobiles. their interior is easily more user friendly than the 7. when you compare the materials and the level of quality it is my opinion just not on the level of the German competition.
no matter how you cut it the fact that MB even offers 4 matic is a big plus. the breadth of MB's line up is so far beyond Lexus.
as for MB owners switching?? what does this mean? people try new brands out all of the time. I've owned MB, BMW, and currently and Audi. does that mean i will never drive another brand again? you take brand loyalty to a level that is counter to being a "thinking man".
when it comes to automobiles...higher end automobiles i am always amazed that when a person chooses a Lexus they let the statistics of others make the decision for them. why not just purchase a car you really like? all cars are manufactured very well today. to have to justify a purchase that has a bland design
because jdpowers says so.....is just not for me!
cars to me..... are just not appliances.
Actually Lexus on a whole is better than 90% of todays low quality German product. Mercedes has rotten quality and finally admitted it. BMW now has bad styling and bad reliability and Audi can't move product past 80K units a year here making it near dead last in market. Though, the new swallow-me-whole grill should help that.
The LS 430 in ultra luxury form is better than S430 or S500 combined. Fit/finish and quality of materials and electronics/ ergonomics ridicule the once shining 3-point star thats now in deep doo-doo. S class aint nothing unless its on MTV Cribs with 20 inchers. Audi A8's a better car. The ES330 is more luxurious and content rich then the vanilla looking 50K E class. Lexus doesn't have an SUV that was designed in the Cold War era either and pretend to charge 70K for it. What a joke!
Just read that Mercedes is now so afraid of the upcoming new super Lexus model threat, that their going to even offer a hybrid S class version probably licensed from Toyota. Who's copying who now? Lexus will offer a LWB S600 level car next round in the 600 hp range using hybrid technology.
The strong Japanese luxury brands should nicely steam roll and flatten the sick & washed up German auto industry just like the Big 2-1/2 were. Mercedes has their priorities sraight you know and is turning it around fighting back. They just unveiled new Nano paint technology to prevent further scratching. I agree 100% that Mercedes, BMW and Audi do sit on a higher level that would be the repair shop lift.
There is such a segment for those cars "Entry Level Luxury" You pointed out that the ES shares the frame, engine and transmission with the Camry..Does that consititute 100% of the car? It does sound more like 25%..I've driven both cars and know the difference between the two..The defect rate of an ES is much lower than that of a Camry. Keep in mind the ES is assembled solely in Japan whilst a big chunk of Camry's are made in Kentucky.
As far as quality..I just drove a S Class..There was a great deal of plastic in that car..Hardly befitting for a 77K sedan. The interior was nothing special..The LS has better wood accents and softer leather..The Ultra is even better than my car..My 1992 LS400 has been trouble free to this date..I don't think the Euro cars can match that kind of reliability.
Not all cars are built equally..Have a look at JDP and see where those German marques rank..It's sad when Jaguar is the highest ranked nameplate..I don't buy cars on a whim. I actually do "Really like" my Lexus' cars. I don't have the time or patience to deal with any quirks..Had I, a Jaguar would have been in my garage a long time ago. Hence my label of Lexus as a "Thinking Man's Car"
SV
Hmmm.... Let's correct you, again.
What is MB's best seller in the US ? Its not the S-class, is it ? How 'bout BMW ?, what is their best seller ? Once again, it's not the 7 ! How about Audi ? Well... not the A8 either. See how your argument falls flat on its face ?
Facts, ma'am, just facts....
Read sapparo's post once again. See anything in there you'd like to correct ?
That is hardly the case..The discussion erupted needlessly as someone attempted to slam Lexus. We're just defending our cars. Lexus owners are a very loyal group, and we love our cars..Not for status, but because of how they treat us.
My point is that the Lexus lineup is probably the best objective purchase you can make. If you read my posts, you'll see I could care less about status. At this point in my life I certainly have nothing to prove.
The argument is this: The LS430 is competitive with any German counterpart out there. Pure and simple. This has nothing to do with image or whatever. JDP long term surveys do indicate problems past the warranty period..They found that a 6 yr old LS400 was more reliable than a new BMW..Go figure.
SV
Ummm...maybe you should check out this site:
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/jdpa_ratings/FindJdAwards.jsp
Call up the 2004 A8, 7, S, and LS. You'll find that, even ignoring the quality-related issues and focusing instead on performance, comfort, features, style, and overall appeal, actual owners of A8s and Ss don't like their cars all that much, on average, whereas owners of 7s and LSs do. To me that means the unit sales "dominance" you claim for the S isn't going to last forever, unless driven by status alone.
If Audi and MB owners are so passionate about their cars, why doesn't it show up in the link I just posted?
in reference to the updates of the S class.
MB didn't change any sheet metal. when the LS was updated the hood and front fenders were changed. essentially the S class has on the exterior remained unchanged.
why do people who purchase a Lexus need MB,Audi,BMW to fail in order to feel validated in their purchase?
Now - you are kidding me that you think the LS had a major redesign change in 2004. I hope so because the conversation is plain ludicrous. MB changed the grill and went to a 7 speed tranny and Lexus sharpened a few body panels and went to 6 speeds. The body styles went unchanged otherwise. Let's get real here - one body style is in its 6th year and the other is in its 5th.
Also when did CR ever find the A8 having the best reliability? I never saw it nor did I see them highly recommend the car.
Justification - You mean I need to justify buying or leasing a car that wins every important award on the planet year after year after year etc etc etc. ad infinitum. Don't think so.
Normally, I won't bother responding to someone this misguided (and with his politics on his sleeves, to boot), but maybe you can learn something afterall...
Drug dealers drive MBs and Bentleys, how 'bout Fortune 500 CEOs ? They drive around in Kias, I suppose...
I suppose the Rolls Royces, Aston Martins, Ferraris, Porsches, Bentleys, Lamboghinis, Maybachs, etc... are just cars for the masses, right ???? I guess you've never had to fork over $350 large ones for a Maybach 62 ? Or have had to put down a deposit for a $750K Ferrari Enzo ? I guess these cars are NOT status cars..... If YOU don't believe that high-end lux cars include STATUS in their pricing and purchasing, then you are the one with more money than brains....
that post that refers to the consumer reports
information was not made by me. i don't know
how my screen name was tagged to it. maybe a moderator could straighten it out.
read my posts i said "update". Lexus changed the front end because the car was just too bland.
MB never reshaped any metal...their design was attractive from the start.
everyone seems to forget that the S class alone offers 4 engines, active suspensions, awd, swb(not in us), lwb. for as nice as the LS 430 is it can't compare with the variety and luxury that the S class offers.
all this ceo nonsense...what do i care. should that persuade me to purchase a Lexus? some insecurity going in some of these posts!
Just to clarify the LS releases to date:
1st-gen: 1990 - 1995
2nd-gen: 1996 - 2000
3rd-gen: 2001 - date
The 2004 release was a facelift, not a re-do. The next LS re-design is due out in the Summer/Fall of 2006 as an MY2007 release. That would be 6 MYs in-between the last release, similar to the S-class.
Hope this clears it up for ya !
All those BMWs, MBs, and Audis sold in Europe, most of them are the cheap models with four cylinder engines. All the 5's and E's sold to taxi companies are good for sales as well.
In the U.S., Lexus still has to catch MB and BMW in cachet. But it has definitely passed Audi, IMO. Most Audis sold are A4's with the 1.8L engine.
ljflx,
My friend we have been over this over and over. Most car buyers couldn't care any less about a car company's financials. I'm very curious to know where and how you gauge status and how you're able to predict that Mercedes is going to fall behind BMW in status, which they haven't done since BMW was born, and how they're going to fall behind a made up nameplate like Lexus that doesn't have a sigle car for the enthusiast buyer to even get excited about.
Next I'm reading the hilarious story about an E55 owner has a problem with slipping in the rain. Let me see, 469hp, 516lb-ft of torque, summer tires...sounds like he should be able to floor this puppy in the rain. In all honesty I guess I wouldn't expect you to understand that any hi-po car with that much power isn't going to operate at its best in the rain. I can't believe you think there is a problem with the car? Anyone who owns a Corvette, 911, M5, M3 or any other high strung, high powered car has trouble with tires in some way or another, whether it be rain, snow, abnormal wear or just plain noise. The Japanese 350Z is so bad with tire wear that there is currently class action suit against Nissan about it. I'm assuming you didn't know this? Surely you didn't miss all the SC430 owners complaing about run-flats on their SC430? Yet, on this board even tires have become an exclusive Mercedes-Benz problem. I won't even mention anything about skills when dealing with a car with so much power.
The reliability issue - if there was ever such a thing as beating a dead horse. Mercedes isn't going to show any reliability improvements until the cars being built in 2004, 2005 on onward are judged 3 years later, or whenever they said they made improvment. For 2005 I'll save you the trouble of posting come April, the 2002 models are going to suck on the precious surveys. No need to look for any improvements on the long-term surveys.
I guess someone here had a talk with Mercedes excutive to know that they're afraid of Lexus doing a 100K sports car. To me a 100K, 500hp 2-seat Lexus would be the most irrelevant car possible in a Lexus showroom. Who's going to buy it? Surely not your typical Lexus owner, and in its current form of style it surely isn't going to convert any Porsche, Ferrarri, SL, Corvette, Aston-Martin or Bentley buyers.
M
The A-Class first came out in 1997 and it was a sales hit and it hasn't done a thing to the Mercedes' image and the second generation that just went on sale in 2004 has been getting great reviews all across Europe. When is Mercedes image supposed to fall because of the A-Class, when the 3rd and 4th generation models appear in 2010, or 2016? The new A-Class is even built like a proper Mercedes. Read up on the car before making so many assumptions.
"Not sure what you mean about the LS catchng up to the S-class in sales. It's badly outsold the S-class in 2001 thru 2004."
Does the fact that the LS430 starts at 56K compared to 70K+ plus for the S-Class have anything to do with this at all? I'm not even saying it is the sole reason, that it is a factor. Everyone doesn't lease.
"By the way the last time I looked the SC sold about 12k cars a year in the US which is about the same as the SL.
Considering that the SL costs more than 25K more than the SC430 the should have sold more than the SL by far, and 12K is wrong, it sold 9,708 last year and the SL sold 12,885. (Source: http://www.aicautosite.com/)
M
"BEIJING, Jan. 25 -- Toyota Motor Corp, Japan's leading automaker, said yesterday it started recalling 1,717 Lexus vehicles sold on the Chinese mainland due to possible fuel pump defects.
The recall will affect Lexus LS430 sedans made between July 29, 2003, and March 8, 2004, Toyota Motor (China) Limited said in a statement.
The company, which is based in Hong Kong and responsible for Toyota's exports to China, applied to the mainland's General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine to recall the sedans.
"Impellers in the fuel pumps may be distorted. If the condition is serious, pumps will not work and result in the explosion of the engine," the company said.
Authorized Lexus dealerships on the mainland, whose numbers will jump from six to 14 by the middle of this year, will help owners of Lexus 430 sedans replace their cars' fuel pumps free of charge.
The recall will end on April 30, the company said.
This is Toyota's second recall of Lexus vehicles on the mainland in seven months.
Last July, Toyota ordered back in 1,489 Lexus LS430 sedans due to problems with the model's transmission.
Toyota is currently importing and selling the Lexus LS430, GS300, RX300 and IS200 on the mainland and will launch the Lexus GS430 later this year.
Analysts say auto recalls will become more frequent in China with growing vehicle sales and the implementation of compulsory vehicle recall regulations last October.
A number of other foreign automakers have also been forced to order mainland recalls over the past year, including Mitsubishi Motors, Mercedes-Benz and Volvo.
Automakers in China - including Sino-foreign joint ventures - which have shunned auto recalls in the past due to a lack of legislation, have also begun recalling defective products.
Source: http://www.theautochannel.com/F/news/Headlines-Automotive.html
Tuesday Jan 25th 2005.
Yes, you said Mercedes was either in or heading towards financial trouble, thing is no one here ever cared enough about that side of the business (I know I didn't) to argue it then or now. They'll suffer until they right the ship and just like any other company their backs will be pressed to the wall and they'll do what they have to survive. Nissan was in the same exact boat. None of this will change the way I feel about their products.
M