High End Luxury Cars

drew_

Please join us in our inaural MB Tuesdays chat tonight at 6-7pm Pacific. All MB owners and fans/enthusiasts are welcome to drop by. Don't miss it, it should be great!

Click on the link below to get to the chat:
/direct/view/.eea6e59


Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards

drew_

xjs5

I sound like a nerd but a flagship is the highest sedan. It's like in poker where certain hands beat others. The highest sedan is always at the top.

I should be hauled off to nerd prison but here's an example: Volkswagen lists its own cars from the most prestigous to the least:

Passat
Passat wagon
Jetta
New Bettle
Golf
GTI
Cabrio
EuroVan

Passat is the flagship (with six, high trim level). Passat wagon is next because it says "Passat." Any Passat is higher than any Jetta
etc. The second sedan is second. New Bettle is more prestigous than Golf (old bettle before rabbit). Hatchback is after sedan. Generic
designations come before specific ones. Sport comes second. Luxury designation is the exception (since luxury is the goal). Trucks would be last.

Crown is the car (LS is called Toyota Celsior) and
Toyota is the brand. LS is the flagship Lexus but since the same cars are branded Toyota the Toyota is the flagship.

My point was the LS shouldn't be competing with the others but it does- and I guess it was I wouldn't care if it said Toyota.

ljflx

The name Crown threw me off. I had read about the ultra-luxurious Celsior in some auto mag a while back. If I remember right it has an extremely soft ride and virtually no interior noise and comes with V-8 or V-12 engines but is only sold in Japan and Asia. If it outdoes the LS as I'm sure it does I doubt that the enthusiasts would like it unless of course it could handle well. But it probably leaves you out of touch with the road - not that I would mind that. I did read somewhere that Lexus was seriouly evaluating bringing the V-12 engine into the U.S. and even toyed with it for the 2001 LS. So it's just a matter of time. Now if they go that far would they put a V-12 in the GS? That would be interesting.

escargo

I must have hit a nerve there, denniswade. In case you missed it, I was merely trying to make the point that at least in the US, Mercedes has for decades been a high end status symbol while Lexus is a Johnny-come-lately. As a young kid growing up in a lower middle class family I always dreamed of owning a Mercedes but never thought it would be possible. There's nothing wrong with Toyotas, I've owned several of them and loved 'em. But I'd never dream of paying 70 grand for a souped up Toyota. That's just my perception, not right or wrong, just how I feel. In another thirty years if Lexus is still around my kids may feel the same way about owning a Lexus as I do about Mercedes. Your attack seemed to be a bit over the top - I'm not sure whose upbringing is more in question.

Ljflx - as for why the S430 instead of the S500, I am a cash buyer and just could not see forking over an extra 10 grand for those 17 extra horses and half a second faster 0-60 time. Also, since I trade in and out of vehicles pretty often, resale value is important and the S430 as the entry model in the S class should hold its resale value slighlty better. Its a tough decision and you can't go wrong either way. If cost is not much of a factor to you but performance is, you may be happier with the S500. Good luck.

escargo

Actually, I believe the S500 has about 27 more horses than the S430. It just didn't seem like enough to me to justify the extra cost. If I were a true performance buff, I would go for the S55. Its not much more in price than a fully dressed S500

drew_

Just a reminder that the MB chat starts in about 20 minutes. See you there:

/direct/view/.eea6e59

sean2g

http://www.geocities.com/Motor City/Downs/9323/new7.htm has photos of what the new 7 will look like.
PLEASE LOOK FOR FURTHER INFO "escargo"

drew_

Thanks for dropping by everyone, and making our first ever MB Tuesdays chat so successful. I learnt a few things tonight, most notably about the MB phones and voice recognition.

Hope to see you all again on Friday in the Fridays Freeways chat, or in next Tuesday's Edmunds.com Editors and MB chats.


Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards

pablo_l

I wonder what will happen when...

(a) Mercedes and BMW bring their (existing) A-class and the newly announced 1-series to the US, which they have stated they'll do
(b) while Lexus stays committed to the uppity market, and strictly uses the Toyota name to go lower in the market
(c) also, VW is about to enter the luxury market with their, what do they call it, D-type or something?

Let's face it, all those traditional perceptions on Old World prestige no longer apply: to start things off, BMW's heritage is in motorcycles and mini-cars in the 50s (the Isetta is not next to any Ferraris in car history books), and Mercedes has been delivering middle class and now with the A-class entry level cars (albeit with style) for a while now.

The only brands that for now truly keep sticking to their heritage are Ferrari, Rolls, Bentley, Morgan, and Porsche (soon to violate it with their SUV, though)...

merc1

That's true, but as long as those companies still offer the S-Class and 7-Series cars their prestige will stay intact. But you're right, nothing is the same anymore. It's free-for-all now. Everyone wants the sales. However don't forget that BMW's heritage is more in the 2002 and early 3-Series cars that resulted from that. Way more than the econo cars they had to produce to stay alive after the war. I do wish that Mercedes hadn't done the A-Class either, but with it they are becoming a full-scale manufacturer. The big-bucks V-Dub will be the D1. I can't wait to see it, though I do see a conflict with Audi. Time will tell.

M

ljflx

Why would MB not use Chrysler as their "Toyota" brand? It's BMW that needs an A-Class strategy in the U.S. not MB.

ljflx

I think it's only U.S. (and I guess Canada) that's hung up on the prestige factor. MB E-Class and BMW 5-series are taxis in much of europe and sell at 50% of price we pay. European consumers pay a 100% luxury tax on these cars which keep them on a price parity with us. Taxi's don't translate to prestige to me. The names Lexus & Infiniti as far as I know don't exist in Japan as brands. We americans seem to have strong egos and these manufacturers take advantage of it.

denniswade

Starting this year, the models formerly sold as Toyotas in Japan will be sold as Lexi -- part of their strategy to internationalize the brand.

As for overlap vs separation, Lexus is gravitating down-market with the IS300 and Toyota is already upmarket with the Land Cruiser and upcoming new Supra. 4Runners have cost mid-thirties for years, which is RX300 territory. Additionally, there may very well be a third brand for the youth and performance market, although rumors of a third sales and service channel have been quashed.

I also agree that Mercedes' attempt to invade the high-production market with the A-class was a major marketing mistake, one that is certain to dilute their premium image if it hasn't already. Fortunately for them, the A-class isn't sold here, where people do NOT associate the name with taxis (although every time I hear one of those friggin diesels start up I can't help but wonder what possessed the owner to buy the thing in the first place). Buying Chrysler was a smart move for them -- managing the merger as poorly as they did, and then buying Mitsu, was not.

ljflx

Toyota is hitting on all cylinders. The last bastion for them was the large sport-ute and the Sequoia is incredibly successful. It wont be long before Lexus has a brand here as well. MB and BMW have a lot of territory to cover both at the low end and in the sport-ute arena. Merc1 may not agree, but the purchase of Chrysler was a brilliant strategic move when viewed from a pure business standpoint. The follow-up execution of the day-to-day running of the business was as brutally bad as the acquisition was brilliant. As I said once before - "foolish German pride" ruined a great strategic move. Even now you can see the division in Daimler about how to handle this acquisition. The executive board member of Daimler in charge of MB continues to fight what will ultimately be a losing battle over parts integration and only now has reluctantly agreed to some sharing. Meanwhile Jurgen wants more sharing as it is the only way to save this deal. I hope MB realizes that Lexus introduced a $70k "ultra lux" car as a test to see if they could sell a car at that price point. The fact that it is nearly impossible to get one indicates the success they will have in the future. It also means they will probably declare war soon with an LS430, an LS500 and of course an all new ultra-lux V-12 LS600($77k or so). The enthusiasts may not like it and will cry foul over more copying but Toyota will laugh all the way to the bank as the cars are snapped up. It's pretty easy to read the tea leaves.

merc1

In theory yes the Chrysler thing is smart, but I guess I don't see it now because of all the negative press it has brought ever since. The thing I don't like (like that MB exec) is the inevitable sharing of platforms. I really hope it never happens, but I guess it must if this "marriage" is to really work. On another note I can see an Lexus LS model with a higher displacement. I would say for about 2003, if not 2002, if for no other reason to combat the reborn 340hp Q45.

M

denniswade

if Mercedes does not share platforms with Chrysler, the advantages of technical and manufacturing synergy will be lost. Also, if Chrysler is to improve its quality image rapidly, sharing plateforms with Mercedes is the quickest way to do it (provided, of course, the quality is real -- remember the 'M'?).

wie_gehts

One more thing about prices ... now that the Dollar rose to about 2.20 DM from 1.60 DM two years ago, that means any BMW or Benz sold in the US should be much cheaper. But of course they don't adjust the prices, only if it went the other way, they would, I guess. In this case, however, they pocket the extra money and have a good time. One of the reasons why BMW made such good profits last year while other automakers are in trouble.
BMW has the European delivery program where they say they give it to you at European MSRP, but I doubt they adjusted their exchange rates, or does anyone know more about this? If only there weren't all the troubles with the conversion, I would go buy one in G. in DM get the 16% tax back and ship it to the US.
THis even more holds true for used ones. Used BMW are so overpriced here cause they seem to be in high demand (or maybe its just artifical inflation?). Go to a dealer lot in Europe and you won't belive your eyes at what prices they sell one or two year old BMWs ....
Ok, this is kind of off topic but maybe it was interesting for some of you anyhow.

wie_gehts

I do believe it is extremely difficult to build a high-end luxury car in the US with the available labor and parts supplier market. Notice that all/most high-end luxury vehicles from import manufacturers (incl. the Japanese) are not built here, for a reason ... the same reason why the M-class had such quality troubles (apart from the fact that they obviously tried to cut cost of the M-class to make it more affordable, at the end, 35k for an M-class isn't very expensive for a Benz).

remus26

wie ghets,

Of course the companies are not going to lower prices if they do not need to. Think about it 1) Companies are in business to make money & maximize profits for stockholders/owners. 2) Benz & BMW sales are going strong so they don't need to lower prices 3) the Luxury car market in the US is still strong today(who knows how long that will last!!!).

On the other post. Let's face it, the big Japanese companies build cars more efficiently and better than anyone. Followed by only the Germans. The American companies still can't build a car like them. Why? It's probably partially due to research, design & engineering as well as not finding a capable labor force. Of course it could also be management. Ultimately anything is possible and a high quality luxury car could be built in the US but it has yet to be done.

Starting in 2002, the RX300 is going to be built in Canada. We'll see then how well a high end luxury car is built in North America.

arcoates

Canada builds great cars! I am biased of course because I'm Canadian. But the Honda plant always sets new standards for efficiency, quality etc... I think RX300 will do just as well~ A.R.

denniswade

are the problem -- it's the design and engineering. Amercian plants have been rated at the top for several years now, for productivity AND quality. The production system itself has a lot to do with quality -- one more thing that simply cannot be blamed on the workers.

pablo_l

The discussion has somewhat decayed somewhat, with individual opinion and perception being taken for generic brand-bashing. Let us not confuse the two. Buying into the value proposition of the different brands is an individual thing. With a few exceptions, we all state these are all fabulous cars, and thus the decision has to be made somewhat emotionally. Discussing that is about as meaningful as having a heated debate over which color is best, blue or red.

I don't think any of these brands have a quality *problem*. There is circumstancial anecdotal Internet evidence for anything - there's enough people claiming their Lexus experience was a nightmare... but who's to know whether those guys truly ever owned a Lexus.

I would like to see the study that ranks American plants at the top, that is, above Japanese and German and other, plants. US plants have improved a lot, but I doubt they are at the top now.

ljflx

Sorry that I look at things from such a "cold" business perspective sometimes. You can probably guess that I'm a finance guy who's become deeply involved in my company's strategy which, by the way is far removed from the auto business though we have everyone of them as clients. I actually agree with you from a branding standpoint. MB's brand name is probably one of the best on earth. It's got to be a very emotional thing for some of their execs to share parts with Chrysler and potentially hurt a brand name that's been built so well over such a long period of time. On the other hand they should never have done the deal if it wasn't their intention to do so in the first place. I would have thought they had unanimous agreement in the executive and supervisory boards beforehand. Then again Jurgen is a cowboy who shoots from the hip.

On a different front I hardly think Lexus is worried about Infiniti. I've always thought the Japanese acted as one business unit anyway - the old Japan Inc.It seems pretty clear to me that its MB they are targeting.

pablo_l

...we all know it's the battle cry of the MBAs, alas, there's always a bigger market a tiny bit further down the food chain. Cost-reduce a little, and you'll increase your revenue oh so sweetly. And, as we know, the financial analyst rewards nothing quite as much as sheer growth, even when it's predictably short-sighted. I for one cringe every time a genuine luxury brand bastardizes its brand name, for it's clear it'll hurt them in the mid-term.

remus26

pablo_1,

Check out JD Powers surveys for which plants have gotten awards. I believe over the past few years several Japanese owned factories in the US have gotten awards & I believe a Cadillac factory did.

pablo_l

...first of all, I see how "awards" are given in another indistry, and I am not sold on the concept.

Second of all, it seems the world-wide Platinum award has only gone to a US factory once, in a tie...

denniswade

You asked for backup and got it -- then dispute the whole concept. As the farmer said when he went to the zoo and saw a giraffe for the first time, "There ain't no such animal!" =O)

As for Japan Inc -- there REALLY ain't no such animal. That theory has been roundly disproven. And Toyota doesn't depend on anybody -- they don't need to.

Interestingly, the basis of Mercedes' and Toyota's reputations are the same -- solid, conservative cars that last a lifetime. I see nothing wrong with that.

ljflx

I agree with you on Japan inc. Nissan and Toyota don't share anything and over time Infiniti's Q tried to become a Lexus. My comment about Japan Inc. meant more of a market approach or entry point. Look at the economic shape Japan is in today. You've got to have free trade and competition to succeed long-term. Toyota, despite such bad times in Japan remains one hell of a strong company and competes on all fronts and is doing a helluva a job at it.

Pablo - just for the record - I'm not an MBA. Booksmart people get under my skin as well. I prefer streetsmart people with lots of experience anyday. Look at the shape Nasdaq is in thanks to all the intellectuals. Had it been left to its own it would've had a more gradual rise and would have been higher than it is today by quite a bit and none of us would have counted money that never really existed.

pablo_l

Awards as backups... if he wins the Oscar, Russell Crowe is a better actor than Morgan Freeman? I don't think so. You and I know "wards" are whimsical in nature, and hardly rock-soild proof for anything. Don't make it look like your provide "facts" that I just stubbornly not accept. Saying "US factories are the bets in the world" based on JD Powers' *once* declaring a tie between a Japanese and a US factory is somewhat questionable. That said, I don't think there's anything fundamentally flawed with US-based manufacturing, cars are not manually built by artisans anymore, it is a mere function of investment and process which can be implemented wherever.

merc1

Actually I had guessed that you were probably analyst of some sort. Thats good for me that you look at it that way, because I can get pretty intoxicated by these cars at times. Especially after visiting certain relatives of mine. You can image the feeling I got the day I heard of the merger. Chest pains...lol. Seriously though I do know that for this thing to work they're going to have to share parts, and one day (gulp!) platforms. I can't imagine Mercedes not being my favorite luxury car, but if such a day does come I'll still have little-bitty, independent BMW. Hopefully.

M

ljflx

If they are smart they will never share the S-class platform. Regardless of how much I love, and as flint350 once wrote have a passion for, the LS430 I do have great respect and came close to going with the S-500. I'd like that platform to stay pure. Maybe MB can create a platform between the c and e (there is a letter d there) that will be shared. My favorite MB style wise at least is the E and it would be nice if it could stay pure as well. Perhaps thats where this will all go - the top two platforms of each luxury group remains pure to itself. By the way I was an accountant and later a CFO and in past 5 years became mainstream strategic planner as well as CFO. It's fun to analyze anyone's strategic moves. Don't get too emotional about MB - they are just trying to remain very competitive and enter the non-luxury segment. I really do believe that the Lexus success coupled with Toyota's downstream cars for mass distribution forced MB to move. Eventually BMW will have no choice either but they are private and can be stubborn about it for a longer time. Apparently MB didn't have a lot of faith in the A class in America or didn't want to go through the cost of building an economic brand.It's easier to do what Toyota did and go upstream with Lexus than the other way around.

drew_

"Apparently MB didn't have a lot of faith in the A class in America or didn't want to go through the cost of building an economic brand.It's easier to do what Toyota did and go upstream with Lexus than the other way around."

The A-class is not sold in North America because it's not designed for this market. MB is not going to sell cheaper cars that the masses can afford since the brand name will lose its exclusivity. This is something that the Germans bosses take great pride in and hence something that they watch very closely. That's why they merged with Chrysler ;-)

FYI, the new generation A-class in 2004 or 2005 may make its way to North America.


Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards

xjs5

Audi has the A2. A European conglomerate has to have a very small car for Europe even in the luxury brand. Audi has an A3 also that (the 2 door version) looks like a Honda Civic. We (Americans) spend way too much time thinking about image, and names, thinking they'll ruin the image or they changed the name. Have you ever talked to middle school age children? They just don't want to be embarassed. Volkwagen/ Audi integrartion dates from the early 1960's. Mercedes is way behind if platform sharing is the economic reality of its future. One could wait until Mercedes was platform sharing with Chrysler but if that's a problem why not just get a Mercedes while the getting is good?

ljflx

Those streets of Europe are incredibly small and narrow and even more so when there are bikers on them. Welcome to Amsterdam. My point really was what you said - a low end car with the MB nameplate will never happen here.

merc1

I'm not worried about the S-Class platform being shared with anything. Chrysler couldn't see anything at that price point anyway. The E and C platforms will probably be shared somewhere done the line. Toyota's main cars had nothing to do with Mercedes, nothing at all. They've been selling hundreds of thousands of cars in the U.S for years. Lexus on the other hand yes it had something to do with Mercedes getting more competitive, but there was already a plan to cut costs and build more cars in the early 90's before Lexus got such a hold on the market. After the hit and miss of the 1992 W140 S-Class Mercedes changed strategies. It wasn't all Lexus' doing. Now that Mercedes knows what it's like to sell a million cars worldwide I am worried about some things. I personally would like to see them build the best car they can, and not worry about sales. Oh well. The A-Class didn't come here because it doesn't fit Mercedes' image in the U.S. Mercedes has more confindence in their cars than most so that certainly isn't it. If they didn't have any confidence in the A-Class they would have abandoned it after the moose thing...
And you need more than one model to build another seperate franchise.
On another note I'm surprised you like the looks of the E-Class. It's timeless to me of course. The E that I still get watery-eyed over is the previous W124 model from 1986-1995. Timeless, Classic Mercedes-Benz...pure.

M

xjs5

a low end car with the MB nameplate, well the SUV assembled in Alabama is maybe cashing in on the legend. The E has strong competition and the SL is extremely expensive and other than that I don't see what the fuss is about. Not a moose thing but more like a cash cow problem?

ljflx

An absolutely timeless car that looks great from every angle. The S-Class has, to me at least, a more sporty look vs. the stately look of the E. While I think the S is a well designed car I don't think it looks great from all angles.On the other hand I always find myself staring at the E, particularly in the brilliant silver and black exterior colors, no matter what the vantage point. As I said to you once before they should extend the car 7 inches or so as it is just too cramped for a car at that price point - it's simply too small for me. (I have a hard time justifying 60k for a car that's the size of a Camry.) The E also maintains the classic MB grill and style whereas the new S seems to be trying to carve out new ground. I agree with you that Lexus copied MB's style so it is a bit insulting to hear it the other way around on the E-class post earlier. But in truth the E's current style is now more of a Lexus look since the new S and C have moved on to a different style.

ljflx

If the nasdaq takes another hit like today I'm selling the cars and finding a new planet to live on. How are you holding up?

denniswade

I didn't say that US factories are the best in the world, I said they're the most productive -- which they were, last time I looked. Do you have information to the contrary that you can share with us? I get my information from Forbes, Business Weekly, WSJ and the business reports on cable TV, so I sometimes forget exactly where I've read or heard it. But I do know that the last I heard, US assembly plants were the most productive, as were US workers.

merc1

Well you know I like the way they all look. I gonna miss the way Bruno styled MB's cars all these years. I just don't think the E looks like a any Lexus. The new C is first Mercedes to not be styled by Bruno. So far so good. His last effort, the new CL coupe it pobably the best looking Mercedes made so far. A mean feat...

M

ljflx

At least you know you are predjudiced about it. Maybe a better way to put it is the E more fits the Lexus family style though it really started the other way around. I think the views are similar from the side and back.

denniswade

about the CL -- the CLS is by far and away my favorite, but the SLK still looks sweet.

drew_

is on tonight at 6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern. Hope to see you there!

Click on the link below to get to the chat:
/direct/view/.eea6e59


Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards

drew_

"It is not known what inspired Neil to want to begin racing cars, but what IS known is about his love of cars. Neil Chirico, Road Test Editor for Edmunds.com is ready to answer your questions about the many cars that he has test-driven. Neil also brings you a wealth of knowledge concerning the many questions that you will have about vehicle service, having been in the trenches as a service advisor at the dealership level for many years. Don't miss having your questions answered by one of Edmunds best.

When:

Tues, March 13th (Tonight) at 5-6pm Pacific/9-10pm Eastern

Click on the link below to read more about/to enter the chat:

http://www.edmunds.com/chat/chiricochat031301.html

xjs5

the best looking mercedes made so far? It looks like a Ford Mustang from some angles. I can't see how this could be the best looking mercedes made- there's been so many and you choose this one? I've read some of your posts about Mercedes not being the same in build quality and yet you seem to like only car that are new, newly styled, or not yet newly styled. I don't have an opinion about the new coupe but the apex of Mercedes styling I don't see that.

denniswade

Sorry -- the CLK is just about the slickest lookin thing on the road right now. It has classic Mercedes styling with an enormous respect for Mercedes tradition. Creme de la creme -- right up there with (but just behind) the 280SL. I still get short of breath whenever I see one of those -- lack of power and crummy transmission notwithstanding. The 300SL was brutal and the late 60s 280SLS was elegant, but the new CLK is all of those things and more -- it's a thoroughly modern car.

(merc1, are you getting all this? You can blackmail me with it later!) =O)

pablo_l

I briefly thought about getting a CLK, but the interior is somewhat subpar and plasticky, really. The external design is slick, but not all that distinctive in the end.

pablo_l

Oh, yeah, it hurts. On the other hand, that's the way the stock market goes, and it's a lesson learned. Ultimately, at some point in time I allowed so-called experts to over-rule my gut-feel that the market was over-heated and probably I should cash out. Thus, ultimately, I have no one to blame but myself. It is a challenge all over agin, now. You know, it seems somehow knowing I had comfortable retirement there on my account made my brain somewhat soft for the last 6 months. In retrospect, I can't really explain why I talked the talk ("the P/Es are outta whack, companies over-valued"), and being an insider saw the structural issues in the industry; and yet I just went right along with the lemmings and saw my portfolio melt to 25% of what it once was. I am upset at myself, and vowed to learn the lesson. I am sure most of you more experienced hands out there knew it all along, I seemingly had to run into it. But if I can't recreate the same thing all over again, it means I was just lucky and didn't deserve what I had. In any case, it's not like I don't have a somewhat nice safety cushion left. But Monday was an intense and brutal day, I was utterly shell-shocked for a few hours...

pablo_l

> I didn't say that US factories are the best in > the world, I said they're the most productive --> which they were, last time I looked.

I don't think the awards you mentioned are for productivity, but rather for excellence and thus quality. But even if it were for productivity -are you referring exclusively to the automotive industry, or is this a blanket statement? I don't know about the automotive industry, but at least in the semiconductor industry, there are international plants out there that hold their own very favorably. Infineon, Matsuhita, Toshiba and all those guys are not chopped liver.

> But I do know that the last I heard, US
> assembly plants were the most productive, as
> were US workers.

Metrics, metrics. If that were the case under every possible metric, it would make no financial sense whatsoever to move plants to Mexico and such. I know you'll reply that a US worker is more productive than a Mexican worker, just that his wage is higher. But if two Mexican workers, for a lower price than one US worker, create the same output, then the Mexican factory is more productive overall. The productivity measure that most industries care about is $ output for every invested $, and if that measure favored US factories, no one one ever consider going elsewhere. So obviously, your blanket statement can't be accurate.