I test drove a 2004 LS 430 last week and was disappointed by the hesitation in acceleration which seemed most pronounced when stepping on the accelerator after making a turn. A big negative for me when spending $55,000. What is supposed to be the point of the Drive by Wire technology which apparently causes this problem?
"You're trying to use Lexus where they exist and Toyota where they don't"
Not really. Lexus remains the luxury arm of Toyota. Soon, Lexus will become its own brand separate, yet a part of the Toyota family. Unless Lexus is spun out of TMC as its own publicly traded entity, it remains a part of TMC. So both names can be associated with each other.
"Lexus wants to distance itself from Toyota for the purpose of becoming a global luxury car player.."
You are incorrect here. Lexus does NOT want to distance itself from Toyota, rather Lexus wants to take on the likes of MB and BMW on a far larger scale than it currently is, with freedom from its parent, Toyota. Consider it phase-II of the TMC plan for global domination. Create new styles, add in hybrid variants to all trim levels, play the HP and luxury cards, and make BMW and MB sweat, just a little more especially in their own backyard. Put another way, do you suppose MB or BMW will ever threaten TMC's market share in Japan ? Not very likely in a long time from now. But Lexus is going to Europe to compete, and you better believe they mean business.
"All this time you've debated with anyone here that said a Lexus was just a tarted up Toyota, now you're telling me they are one in the same?"
How many times am I going to have to repeat myself - TMC and Lexus are one family, though with different missions. On the contrary, some of the German car fans who, in their zeal to deride Lexus, call it a glorified Toyota, to which Lexus fans disagree. For example, the LS400 was created before its Toyota equivalent - Celsior. And the Celsior is not any cheaper than the LS400 just bcos it is sold in Japan as a Toyota. In addition, except for the IS220, there are no lower classes of the Lexus brand sold anywhere in the world, unlike MBs and BMWs.
Sigh !!! this madness gotta stop.... Merc1, let us move on, and agree to disagree. Kapish ?
"I wouldn't agree they are not luxury or prestigious brands either - not in any way shape or form. Nor am I saying that."
Ok.
"But there are many cars they sell that are not luxury cars, nor do they qualify as luxury cars by government defined standards."
But does the G know what a luxury car is? Are they to define what a luxury car is? A 3-Series is a sport sedan, not a luxury car per se and the U.S. Government in particular is capable of understanding the difference, at least until at least on U.S. brand came up with one - the Caddy CTS.
"Just because a brand has a lux classification - it doesn't mean everything it sells are lux goods."
I agree, never said that every they sell was. My point was that you have to also look at what the brand "cut their teeth on" sorta speak, with Mercedes it wasn't A-Classes, B-Classes or C-Classes, it was the E, S, SL and the like. These smaller cheaper cars are much newer for them.
This isn't even about MB vs Lexus, just the branding issue.
It seems to me you're trying to use Toyota one min where they are strong and Lexus the next in an area where they are strong. You are playing a double standard here. Nobody said that a 25-30K was an absolute luxury car, you missed the part about them being sports sedans or entry-level luxury. It is total nonesense to look at one car for 29K and say it isn't luxury, while one that has a price 32K is, without looking at the cars themselves.
"You are incorrect here. Lexus does NOT want to distance itself from Toyota, rather Lexus wants to take on the likes of MB and BMW on a far larger scale than it currently is, with freedom from its parent, Toyota."
The last part of this sentence is what I just stated, freedom from Toyota, of course its with Toyota's money, but that is transparent to the customer. Also If this were the case then why oh why is Lexus trying to distance themselves from Toyota in marketing, sales, distribution and everything else in Europe? They don't want to be known as a "Toyota". Everyone clearly sees this here. That is what is holding them back not, too much close association with Toyota.
"Consider it phase-II of the TMC plan for global domination. Create new styles, add in hybrid variants to all trim levels, play the HP and luxury cards, and make BMW and MB sweat, just a little more especially in their own backyard."
Lexus is a brand within Toyota yes, but that isn't what they're striving to be, they're striving to stand on their own. They have their own engineering staff and their own design studio, all seperate from Toyota. You've lost the focus of having a luxury brand here.
Also, if Toyota is so powerful why not sell all these cars under one name then - Toyota? You saying they came up with a seperate brand - Lexus to be only known as a Toyota family memember? Come on now I know you don't honestly believe that.
The current IS300 is just that - a tarted up Toyota (Alzeeta or whatever it was) that the U.S. "Lexus" buyer saw right through. The IS200 was on the European market for years before Lexus USA got the idea to import it - thus rendering it a failure because everyone could clearly see it wasn't a "Lexus".
" Put another way, do you suppose MB or BMW will ever threaten TMC's market share in Japan ? Not very likely in a long time from now. But Lexus is going to Europe to compete, and you better believe they mean business."
No they wont because neither BMW or MB sells nearly as many models nor as many micro cars and cheap models as the entire Toyota Motor Company does, and you know this. Silly question.
Mercedes, Lexus and BMW all introduced them for Model year 2004, on the E-Class, RX330 and 5-Series respectively. This was in the U.S. market.
The RX330 came to market first in the spring of 2003 so that is why everyone says Lexus had them first. They were first to actually to put in buyers hands in the U.S. At the same time the technology was present on European Es and 5s, and arrived in the fall of 2003 as MY2004 Es and 5s. In short they all had it at the same time for the 2004 model year.
"I think of Chrysler as benefitting from better German engineering (not sure if that is really true or not) and you can see some MB design elements clearly in many of the new styles. I hardly think of them as being branded as one company and I can't imagine many ever will, at least in the near-term (next 10 years)."
Exactly. Also Chrysler has benifited from MB engineering in a many ways. Their biggest hit right now, the 300 uses pleny of Benz know how and hardware. I know that may seem to be a joke on this board, but MB's suspension, transmission and other hard points aren't the cause of their reliability problems. Chyrsler now has a durable 5-speed tranny that can take anything the Hemi can dish out consider this is the same group that engineers trannies for some of if not the highest torque output of any automatic cars around.
"Likewise I think anyone who thinks of Lexus and Toyota as one brand is equally foolish. It's really a silly argument, and one not worth discussing, on both sides.
Exactly!
"In the case of MB though it is far out because they acquired Chrysler. Why penalize a company's prestige for buying another one? Makes no sense. To a lesser extent - but still beyond any sensible credibility - you have certain people who love German cars but who can't and probably never will accept (and clearly don't understand) the risk for creating, challenging and rivaling brands that they want to put on a pedastal. Similarly - why deride a brand for it's guts and success and at the same time redefining the rules of how the game is played. For the record and IMO - Merc1 is NOT one of those."
Ok thats three for three, who is using your user ID?!?! Thanks though, I'm not as much of a finattikker as you thought huh...lol! Long as they don't try to share/engineer a common platform I'm ok with this - true.
It doesn't really matter who announces what first. A company could announce something 10 years in advance, but if another company comes out with it first, they could rightfully so be called the innovators.
Anyway, I don't think you can say any of the 3 manufacturer's can take credit for being "first" with adaptive lights. All basically introduced them at the same time.
How is it not a innovation? I think it is a innovation but a very very small innovation. It's definately not a innovation on the scale of let's say, Hybrid Synergy Drive, but nonetheless it is a innovation.
The FIRST with turning headlights was the TUCKER in 1948. The center headlight turned with the wheels. I post here this as I believe the TUCKER was a luxury car of it's time. Ron
Well thats why I tried to stay out of it because BMW and MB had the things in Europe before Lexus did here, but then again Lexus could have had them in Japan so it really is moot, basically they all "had it" for 2004 is how I see it.
Right, except that BMW I believe had them in 2003 for the US market, but I can't find any sources to back up that statement. I remember when they were announced, BMW rightly claimed no other manufacturer had them for sale in the US.
BMW had self-leveling headlamps for MY 2003. The swivel up and down. Not sure which models have them or when they first appeared. My 03 530 has them. Still trying to figure out what good they are.
Ljflx... in the words of the great Pierre Francoise Dellabrioschi... La PL-U-U-ME dellacroix se si bon vichysoise si bon SHEESE!!!
on my '05 LS430 and I'd be hard pressed to admit that I notice any improvement in lighting conditions while turning at night. If those lights are moving when I turn I can't tell.
If the marketing literature wouldn't have mentioned that the car had the feature I wouldn't even know I had it.
The feature sure does make for nice commercials though.
I can sure notice them with my '04 LS430 and they do help me. Of course I am out in what is more of a rural area with lots of two lane roads which I do run on at night for kids events in local towns so I do get a fair amount of night driving in without any city lights around. I drove my spouse's '01 MDX recently and besides not having Xenon's on it doesn't have the adaptive lights and absolutely noticed the difference in lighting on curves.
As stated before, the A8 and the Phaeton have relatively little in common. The A8 is all aluminum - including space frame. The Phaeton is all steel and it pays for this in its very high curb weight. Therefore, there is no platform sharing. The engines are both the highly thought of 4.2 (Edmunds top ten). Their market targets are also different with Phaeton targetting the luxo market and A8 more but sport sedan market. We all know by now that there are very few out there who are willing to spend ~$70K for a car (no matter how well built) that has a large VW crest on the grill and trunk.
Pivoting headlights are not new now matter who announced them "first". The Tucker had a pivoting headlight. The 49/50 Fords had an option for a pivoting headlight. Besides, they are both probably made by one supplier anyway.
There is a world of difference between pivoting lights on a Tucker and pivoting lights today. First, the tucker only had one pivoting light and it was a simple mechanical device. Today's are far more advanced and as you may have noticed both headlights don't move totally in sync with one another.
That's funny because all you have to do is look at the two cars and they are incredibly similar. Not for one second do I think there isn't plenty of sharing going on in both cars or that the underpinnings are not the same. One tweaked sport, one more soft ride, one aluminim. one steel. Otherwise they are the same car as far as I'm concerned. Hard to believe VW invented a totally different car and then decided it should look just like an A8. Sorry - don't buy it and never will. But if they did do as you say - they'd be even more nuts than I already think they are.
Is a really nice-looking car, ill-conceived tho'. Badged as a Bentley, that car would sell quite well, IMO. But a VW ???? I kinda wondered what market research report gave VW the impression that the market is ready for a luxury VW at $85K+ (W12) ? And when an exec so much as insinuated such, he was quickly shown the door. I talked to a Phaeton sales guy at the SD auto show in January, and he pretty much lamented the lack of market attention or care for the car. Reason why its demise is not that far behind. But that car is a real beauty ! Very well done by VW.
Well, fond farewell to the Phaeton, could've, would've, should've.... but won't be here much longer. Alas... for what could've been.....
I'm fully aware of the differences between the two cars, but the do share a lot more than you think. Everything I've seen suggest they are indeed on the same platform, but not just a re-badge of each other. Doesn't really matter in the end anyway because a 70K VW is a mistake, though it is an impressive car itself, but it is without cause in a VW showroom.
1st off - the platforms of the a8 and phaeton are very different. the chassis of the phaeton is the same as the bently continental. and if you look at details such as the trunk, interior switch gear, controls, etc, they are phaeton, phaeton , phaeton. those of us who drive this car feel we have obtained a true automotive bargain. i'm not saying it is for everybody, but as i've said elsewhere, short of not being a canyon runner, this car is more than pleasing! there are countless toys that all work. i prefer the vw infotainment center interface to that offered by bmw and mb. after i played tennis a couple months ago and was sick with the flu i took in some heat and massage on the way home - the seats have won awards from a german orthopedic group as the most comfortable and supportive seats in the marketplace. for those of you who think the lexus levinson system is the best, well, maybe it was at one time but not anymore. see the la car site as 1 example of an independent test of audio systems - the blaupunkt produced phaeton system was #1! and i cant tell you how hard it was to get my 2 teenagers out of the back seat after the 4 hour drive since they each had tons of room, their own (2)hvac controls, bun warmers, ventilated seats and massagers and privacy blinds! many of these features are available on other cars but they are also on the luxury vw. the other cars do not have the "indirect" ventilation system - i can no longer stand to see vents in other luxury cars - much more attractive to see wood which only reveals the vents when they are needed to adjust the temperature, then once the desired temperature is reached, the wood covers up the vents again. the phaeton is an amazing car and those who tend to knock it don't drive one. if anything is responsible for the slow sales it is vw's failure to promote it properly. most people i know can afford it and aren't concerned with the label. if you are concerned with that, get a different car! so far as the dealerships are concerned it is sooo true that lexus and infiniti have set the bar way above the german's, any of them. as a former infiniti, bmw and mb owner i can tell you with certainty that fancy surroundings don't make a car more reliable or get it serviced better. i also believe that if there was way better promotion of the phaeton and sales were higher, the dealerships would be forced to improve to meet the market expectations; that said, my sales and service experiences have been first rate.
Despite the styling miscues and the questionable relilablity of the previous 7 series you have to be a little impressed at the 06 745. This is what the 2002 should have looked liked. I believe Bangle got the message. Standing still this car, with that big footprint, makes the LS430 look a little anemic. The LS is a fine automobile and there could even be one in my future(I currently own a 98 740i). If the reliability of the new seven(electronics) improves it will be hard not to take a serious look for my next ride. If you've ever driven any of the high end BMW's or MB it's hard to give up that Connection to the road and feel that Lexus just can't deliver.
Here we go again. Let's please pass on another set of dumb fighting posts here. No one wins, and everyone loses because we all end up saying real dumb things that are very far removed from the truth. I'm certainly not wasting time or posting efforts on this ridiculous subject anymore. It's time to let the silly German vs. Japanese luxury put downs come to a necessary end.
terry79 - nice try, but we've all been there, done that. Others may want to continue a winless war, but not me.
That should read 750i. I thought you could express an opinion on this board.Nothing more,nothing less. They're all fine automobiles. And maybe in a few years when I get past performance driving I'll cock back in a LS, crank up the ML, and be pampered.
You seem to be taking my post about the Phaeton the wrong way. I like the car a lot, I just don't buy that it is a totally different platform than the A8. Just because it shares a lot with a Bentley (not sure I'd like that if I were a Bentley owner) doesn't mean it doesn't also share with the A8. Either way it really isn't worth debating because I like the A8 and the Phaeton. I didn't question whether or not you got a great car and/or a bargain. I've studied the car a many times and I'm fully aware of most of its neat engineering features.
I can't believe it! It is a short wheelbase model though. The S65 AMG has also been released too.
The 2007 S-Class will include a 268hp S350, a 325hp S450 and 380hp S550, according to this most recent discorvery about the current S350 and the rumor mill about the new V8s.
Not since 1993 has Mercedes done a one-year engine/bodystyle model in the U.S.
I wonder if this will prompt BMW to send us a 740i and Jaguar an XJ8 with the smaller 3.5L V8? Maybe an Audi A8 3.7L V8?
i feel their is a market for a swb S that MB has not been chasing in the US. in the swb the V6 should be enough to allow the vehicle to perform equal or better than the 4.3L V8. the new engines really put MB on top in the HP battles. in the end there will probably be 5 different engines, rwd or awd, and 2 wheel bases to choose from. definately not a one size fits all approach.
Well I'm reading something very curious on MB sites right now. They're speculating that the new DOHC direct injection V8s won't be ready at launch so the first two S-Class models will be the S350 with the new generation V6 that made its debut in the SLK350, and the S550 that will use a modified version of the current naturally aspirated AMG 5.5L V8 from the CLK/SLK/C55 models, tuned to 380hp. This will be the first model year production it seems according to various MB sites. Then in for MY2007 in Europe and sometime early 2007 in the U.S. a next generation 4.5L 325-340hp V8 will appear in the S450 and then a re-engined S550 with a 400+ hp 5.5L V8 both with all the tricks, direct injection, dohc/32v etc. will appear for the 2008 model year. Interesting. I've seen this theory tossed around before. This makes some sense considering they're selling the S350 again in the U.S. All will be revealed come Sept.
I can't believe that Mercedes would stoop to offer a V6 for this luxury class. Everybody knows how awful it is to have a luxury car without a V8. That's why the RL has been beat up so long by so many.
What could MB be thinking? Are they opening the door for Acura or was it the other way round.
Maybe the ridiculous price they ask for the S class is the real problem, multiplied by the Euro's strength against the Dollar.
merc1: sorry if i misunderstood your post. i just feel the very fine execution of the phaeton tends to get mixed up with the totally bungled vw marketing and dealer network. i don't have time right now but i will try to get back to you with some info on the differences between what i have been informed are, different platforms. i originally thought they were the same too. bobp7
That got me thinking, so I did my own comparo between the S350 and RL and can't figure out where the S's extra length and wheelbase went.
The inside compartments are virtually identical in volume and leg/head room. The cars are the same width, yet the S is 5 or so inches longer in length and wheelbase. They weigh the same.
Since the RL is SHAWD there's a power train down the middle like the Benz, so it's not the FWD layout is it?
Did BMW have a 6cyl 7-series at any time when MB had the S-320? I don't remember. Was MB the only large sedan with 6cyl? I also don't remember how well that S-320 sold either or what reasons they gave for discontinuing it here. But discontinuity drives me nuts. The six cyl S dies and comes back. The A8's SWB dies and comes back. The S8 hibernates and comes back. All those things would malke me afraid to buy those cars. Leasing is different as the Mfr. bears the risk.
Yes there was a 6-cylinder 735i at one time from 1988-1992, just before the last S320 came out. The previous S320 made up 40 percent of S-Class sales during certain years from 1992-1999. The Audi S8 is/was performance model and doesn't "die" like you say it does. Its the same has MB not having an E55 from 1996-1998, or BMW and M5 from 1997-1999, those models always come a few years after the basic car appears. Like there is no M5 due until the end of this year as a 2006 model, while the new 5-Series has been around since the 2004 model year. Hardly anything to worry about like you making it out to be, its a normal practice. For the SWB A8 and 6-Cylinder S-Class maybe so if you were buying - you're worried about resale value?
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I think the 7s from 77-91 were all six cylinder. They were all V8 from 92 to 95. In 96 they came back with a six in the 728. Don't know long that lasted but it's easy enough to find out. I recall reading that there was supposed to be a six in the new platform but 2006 doesn't have it.
The 1988-1994 7-Series, was comprised of the 6-cylinder 735i and 735iL and the V12 750iL in this country. The 735 models were dropped for 1993 for the V8 740i. The 728i was not sold here during this model's run, and the current 7-Series does have a 730i model, but of course it isn't sold here. There were no 6-cylinder 7-Series models sold in the U.S. after 1992.
The 7-Series prior to 1988 were all 6-cylinder models, not sure how many years that car ran, before my time.
I had a 1986 BMW 735i that was a 6 cylinder-- at least up until just before I traded it in on a MB, when I discovered the rough idle was because it had become a 5 (working) cylinder! :-)
Early on, that car had to have just about every electronic part replaced (all under warranty)-- that was back when Bimmers were known to be quirkily unreliable and MBs were boring but totally reliable. And Lexus, Infiniti?-- never heard of them.
It's hard to believe that an S500 costs $20,000 more for MB to build than an S350. Either the S350 is some kind of loss leader, or the S500 is overpriced.
You are misreading me. As a buyer reasle value would scare me when continuity isn't there. Leasing takes the risk out of the equation. That's all I am saying. The S 8 was a first and didn't last very long and hardly sold so it is an exception to the other cars you note. Note also I used the word hibernate there anyway. But I would'nt put those other cars on the discontinuity list that bothers me as they have a proven sales history, committment and legacy. The S8 doesn't - at least not here.
Comments
What is supposed to be the point of the Drive by Wire technology which apparently causes this problem?
"You're trying to use Lexus where they exist and Toyota where they don't"
Not really. Lexus remains the luxury arm of Toyota. Soon, Lexus will become its own brand separate, yet a part of the Toyota family. Unless Lexus is spun out of TMC as its own publicly traded entity, it remains a part of TMC. So both names can be associated with each other.
"Lexus wants to distance itself from Toyota for the purpose of becoming a global luxury car player.."
You are incorrect here. Lexus does NOT want to distance itself from Toyota, rather Lexus wants to take on the likes of MB and BMW on a far larger scale than it currently is, with freedom from its parent, Toyota. Consider it phase-II of the TMC plan for global domination. Create new styles, add in hybrid variants to all trim levels, play the HP and luxury cards, and make BMW and MB sweat, just a little more especially in their own backyard. Put another way, do you suppose MB or BMW will ever threaten TMC's market share in Japan ? Not very likely in a long time from now. But Lexus is going to Europe to compete, and you better believe they mean business.
"All this time you've debated with anyone here that said a Lexus was just a tarted up Toyota, now you're telling me they are one in the same?"
How many times am I going to have to repeat myself - TMC and Lexus are one family, though with different missions. On the contrary, some of the German car fans who, in their zeal to deride Lexus, call it a glorified Toyota, to which Lexus fans disagree. For example, the LS400 was created before its Toyota equivalent - Celsior. And the Celsior is not any cheaper than the LS400 just bcos it is sold in Japan as a Toyota. In addition, except for the IS220, there are no lower classes of the Lexus brand sold anywhere in the world, unlike MBs and BMWs.
Sigh !!! this madness gotta stop.... Merc1, let us move on, and agree to disagree. Kapish ?
Thx Len, you just summarized a zillion lines of post in two concise lines. Exactly my point.
But we gotta move on.....
Ok.
"But there are many cars they sell that are not luxury cars, nor do they qualify as luxury cars by government defined standards."
But does the G know what a luxury car is? Are they to define what a luxury car is? A 3-Series is a sport sedan, not a luxury car per se and the U.S. Government in particular is capable of understanding the difference, at least until at least on U.S. brand came up with one - the Caddy CTS.
"Just because a brand has a lux classification - it doesn't mean everything it sells are lux goods."
I agree, never said that every they sell was. My point was that you have to also look at what the brand "cut their teeth on" sorta speak, with Mercedes it wasn't A-Classes, B-Classes or C-Classes, it was the E, S, SL and the like. These smaller cheaper cars are much newer for them.
M
It seems to me you're trying to use Toyota one min where they are strong and Lexus the next in an area where they are strong. You are playing a double standard here. Nobody said that a 25-30K was an absolute luxury car, you missed the part about them being sports sedans or entry-level luxury. It is total nonesense to look at one car for 29K and say it isn't luxury, while one that has a price 32K is, without looking at the cars themselves.
"You are incorrect here. Lexus does NOT want to distance itself from Toyota, rather Lexus wants to take on the likes of MB and BMW on a far larger scale than it currently is, with freedom from its parent, Toyota."
The last part of this sentence is what I just stated, freedom from Toyota, of course its with Toyota's money, but that is transparent to the customer. Also If this were the case then why oh why is Lexus trying to distance themselves from Toyota in marketing, sales, distribution and everything else in Europe? They don't want to be known as a "Toyota". Everyone clearly sees this here. That is what is holding them back not, too much close association with Toyota.
"Consider it phase-II of the TMC plan for global domination. Create new styles, add in hybrid variants to all trim levels, play the HP and luxury cards, and make BMW and MB sweat, just a little more especially in their own backyard."
Lexus is a brand within Toyota yes, but that isn't what they're striving to be, they're striving to stand on their own. They have their own engineering staff and their own design studio, all seperate from Toyota. You've lost the focus of having a luxury brand here.
Also, if Toyota is so powerful why not sell all these cars under one name then - Toyota? You saying they came up with a seperate brand - Lexus to be only known as a Toyota family memember? Come on now I know you don't honestly believe that.
The current IS300 is just that - a tarted up Toyota (Alzeeta or whatever it was) that the U.S. "Lexus" buyer saw right through. The IS200 was on the European market for years before Lexus USA got the idea to import it - thus rendering it a failure because everyone could clearly see it wasn't a "Lexus".
" Put another way, do you suppose MB or BMW will ever threaten TMC's market share in Japan ? Not very likely in a long time from now. But Lexus is going to Europe to compete, and you better believe they mean business."
No they wont because neither BMW or MB sells nearly as many models nor as many micro cars and cheap models as the entire Toyota Motor Company does, and you know this. Silly question.
M
The RX330 came to market first in the spring of 2003 so that is why everyone says Lexus had them first. They were first to actually to put in buyers hands in the U.S. At the same time the technology was present on European Es and 5s, and arrived in the fall of 2003 as MY2004 Es and 5s. In short they all had it at the same time for the 2004 model year.
M
Exactly. Also Chrysler has benifited from MB engineering in a many ways. Their biggest hit right now, the 300 uses pleny of Benz know how and hardware. I know that may seem to be a joke on this board, but MB's suspension, transmission and other hard points aren't the cause of their reliability problems. Chyrsler now has a durable 5-speed tranny that can take anything the Hemi can dish out consider this is the same group that engineers trannies for some of if not the highest torque output of any automatic cars around.
"Likewise I think anyone who thinks of Lexus and Toyota as one brand is equally foolish. It's really a silly argument, and one not worth discussing, on both sides.
Exactly!
"In the case of MB though it is far out because they acquired Chrysler. Why penalize a company's prestige for buying another one? Makes no sense. To a lesser extent - but still beyond any sensible credibility - you have certain people who love German cars but who can't and probably never will accept (and clearly don't understand) the risk for creating, challenging and rivaling brands that they want to put on a pedastal. Similarly - why deride a brand for it's guts and success and at the same time redefining the rules of how the game is played. For the record and IMO - Merc1 is NOT one of those."
Ok thats three for three, who is using your user ID?!?! Thanks though, I'm not as much of a finattikker as you thought huh...lol! Long as they don't try to share/engineer a common platform I'm ok with this - true.
M
Anyway, I don't think you can say any of the 3 manufacturer's can take credit for being "first" with adaptive lights. All basically introduced them at the same time.
A famous person in the automotive area who drives a bus and whom we both know has already dealt with this.
His statement:
"The golden years are gone - we have reached the 2nd plateau"
Ralph Kramden.
Brookllyn. USA
Ron
M
Ljflx... in the words of the great Pierre Francoise Dellabrioschi... La PL-U-U-ME dellacroix se si bon vichysoise si bon SHEESE!!!
If the marketing literature wouldn't have mentioned that the car had the feature I wouldn't even know I had it.
The feature sure does make for nice commercials though.
Worth the money IMHO.
Their market targets are also different with Phaeton targetting the luxo market and A8 more but sport sedan market.
We all know by now that there are very few out there who are willing to spend ~$70K for a car (no matter how well built) that has a large VW crest on the grill and trunk.
Well, fond farewell to the Phaeton, could've, would've, should've.... but won't be here much longer. Alas... for what could've been.....
M
after i played tennis a couple months ago and was sick with the flu i took in some heat and massage on the way home - the seats have won awards from a german orthopedic group as the most comfortable and supportive seats in the marketplace. for those of you who think the lexus levinson system is the best, well, maybe it was at one time but not anymore. see the la car site as 1 example of an independent test of audio systems - the blaupunkt produced phaeton system was #1! and i cant tell you how hard it was to get my 2 teenagers out of the back seat after the 4 hour drive since they each had tons of room, their own (2)hvac controls, bun warmers, ventilated seats and massagers and privacy blinds! many of these features are available on other cars but they are also on the luxury vw. the other cars do not have the "indirect" ventilation system - i can no longer stand to see vents in other luxury cars - much more attractive to see wood which only reveals the vents when they are needed to adjust the temperature, then once the desired temperature is reached, the wood covers up the vents again.
the phaeton is an amazing car and those who tend to knock it don't drive one. if anything is responsible for the slow sales it is vw's failure to promote it properly. most people i know can afford it and aren't concerned with the label. if you are concerned with that, get a different car!
so far as the dealerships are concerned it is sooo true that lexus and infiniti have set the bar way above the german's, any of them. as a former infiniti, bmw and mb owner i can tell you with certainty that fancy surroundings don't make a car more reliable or get it serviced better.
i also believe that if there was way better promotion of the phaeton and sales were higher, the dealerships would be forced to improve to meet the market expectations; that said, my sales and service experiences have been first rate.
Your Phaeton sounds awesome...It sounds like it has all the toys and then some...I will look look foreward to driving one...
Is your fully loaded and could you tell us how much it cost or how much a fully loaded one costs...
Thanks.
relilablity of the previous 7 series you have to
be a little impressed at the 06 745. This is what
the 2002 should have looked liked. I believe Bangle got the message. Standing still this car,
with that big footprint, makes the LS430
look a little anemic. The LS is a fine automobile
and there could even be one in my future(I
currently own a 98 740i). If the reliability
of the new seven(electronics) improves it will be hard not to take a serious look for my next ride.
If you've ever driven any of the high end BMW's
or MB it's hard to give up that Connection to the
road and feel that Lexus just can't deliver.
terry79 - nice try, but we've all been there, done that. Others may want to continue a winless war, but not me.
an opinion on this board.Nothing more,nothing less. They're all fine automobiles. And maybe in
a few years when I get past performance driving
I'll cock back in a LS, crank up the ML, and be
pampered.
M
Mercedes-Benz has just decided to sell a S350 Sedan here for the final run of the current S-Class! Very interesting move.
You know what this means right? They're getting buyers ready for the next-generation S350 as the entry level S-Class.
http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/models/main.jsp&modelCode=S350V
I can't believe it! It is a short wheelbase model though. The S65 AMG has also been released too.
The 2007 S-Class will include a 268hp S350, a 325hp S450 and 380hp S550, according to this most recent discorvery about the current S350 and the rumor mill about the new V8s.
Not since 1993 has Mercedes done a one-year engine/bodystyle model in the U.S.
I wonder if this will prompt BMW to send us a 740i and Jaguar an XJ8 with the smaller 3.5L V8? Maybe an Audi A8 3.7L V8?
M
has not been chasing in the US. in the swb the V6 should be enough to allow the vehicle to perform equal or better than the 4.3L V8. the new engines really put MB on top in the HP battles. in the end there will probably be 5 different engines, rwd or awd, and 2 wheel bases to choose from. definately not a one size fits all approach.
M
I can't believe that Mercedes would stoop to offer a V6 for this luxury class. Everybody knows how awful it is to have a luxury car without a V8. That's why the RL has been beat up so long by so many.
What could MB be thinking? Are they opening the door for Acura or was it the other way round.
Maybe the ridiculous price they ask for the S class is the real problem, multiplied by the Euro's strength against the Dollar.
sorry if i misunderstood your post. i just feel the very fine execution of the phaeton tends to get mixed up with the totally bungled vw marketing and dealer network.
i don't have time right now but i will try to get back to you with some info on the differences between what i have been informed are, different platforms. i originally thought they were the same too.
bobp7
The inside compartments are virtually identical in volume and leg/head room. The cars are the same width, yet the S is 5 or so inches longer in length and wheelbase. They weigh the same.
Since the RL is SHAWD there's a power train down the middle like the Benz, so it's not the FWD layout is it?
Could a 6cyl. Mercedes be competitive with an Acura with it's much lower price and superior reliability...I doubt it...
M
The 7-Series prior to 1988 were all 6-cylinder models, not sure how many years that car ran, before my time.
M
Early on, that car had to have just about every electronic part replaced (all under warranty)-- that was back when Bimmers were known to be quirkily unreliable and MBs were boring but totally reliable. And Lexus, Infiniti?-- never heard of them.
http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/unitedkingdom/mpc/mpc_unitedkingdom_website/en/hom- - e_mpc/passenger_cars/home/products/new_cars/s-class_saloon/models.html
The S350 is 53,100 UK Pounds (including 16% VAT, title and registration).
The pound is $1.92, so that's equivalent to U.S. pricing of about $85,000 (net of the VAT) for the S350.
BTW the S500 is about 10,000 UK pounds more than the S350 or over $19K.
The 'loss leader' over there is S280, which is 'only' 47,500 pounds or about $77K US.
Such a deal.