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High End Luxury Cars



  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Anytime the circular reasoning on this thread seems to defy all logic despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary just take a deep breath, raise your arms and face toward the sky and shout 3 times as loud as you can:
  • pablo_lpablo_l Posts: 491
    According to the Business Week article on Audi (Hot Audi!), in JD Powers latest study Audi ranks behind (of course) Toyota and (surprisingly) Mercedes, yet ahead of BMW in quality. I was somewhat surprised by some of the data points mentioned in there, but then again perhaps not, beause the article mentioned that the US market remains a top "need to fix" for Audi, since for some reason it's been left with an obsolete sales and marketing channel that has been revamped elsewhere. But here some reasons why BW had the hots for Audi: stock has grown over 4X since '00 (VW is a majority owner, but Audi stock still trades); record profits of $1.2B in '04; total cars sold have grown 3X since '94. Sales volume in Europe now matches BMW (each about 550k cars), but still trails behind globally (~800k vs 1.2M). In Europe, the current Audi line-up -from A3 to A8- has cleaned up on mag and industry analyst awards. And I was surprised to learn that in Europe Audi outsells BMW and Mercedes with the A8 in the top 8cyl and 12cyl category - it's the "hip" luxury brand when it comes to those top of the line models.

    It'll be interesting to see how quickly they pose a stronger challenge to the perceived Merc and BMW superiority in the USA, because it's obvious that in Europe by now that is a thing of the past. Moreover, Audi's surging strength in Europe is supposedly making Toyota reconsider some of the goals for Lexus.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    some of you have given great suggestions to lower the heat in here, thanks!

    But I need to point out - again - that things are getting too personal. Talk about the cars. Leave out your opinions of other posters and we'll be just fine.

    Now raise your arms, shout about needles and pins and ask why you are mad at serenity... or something like that...

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I just wonder how MB can sell vehicles in the USA when Consumer Reports comes out in its highly influential April 2005 auto issue on page 18 predicting from its accumulation of previously submitted data that 2005 new car reliability across the MB brand should be about 80% below average.
    Only Jaguar and Land Rover are worse.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    pablo - their distribution network/dealerships that I have seen are awful. Walk into the Audi dealership near me and you can't wait to get out. It's tiny, claustrophobic and ancient. Walk into the Lexus dealership and it's like being in the executive offices of a fortune 500 company.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Or maybe it's huchimama or however you spell that word.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I'd like your informed opinions on this article... rather long, I must warn. Gobs of design details to the finest "ith power". And of course, the story would not be complete without the element of intrigue between TMC and an Italian car designer (formerly of Fiat and Ferrari) in Lexus' new design direction !!! Methinks it may be more fodder for the MB fanatics.... Hope not tho'.

    happy reading...
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Upon entering the Lexus dealership today for my test drive, I thought I was at Windsor Castle. Very impressive and absolutely spotless.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    But what about the test drive ? Forget the fluff, give us the real scoop....
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I already posted on the LS thread but here goes again.
    I was given a 2004 pre-owned, euro-tuned with the 18" summer tires and modern luxury package which had about 12,000 miles on it.
    This vehicle was better than the bare-bones LS that I drove at a different dealership.
    This time, I found the driver's seat quite comfortable.
    The suspension created the illusion that I was riding on air and very high off the ground.
    The combination of seat and suspension made for a very relaxing ride. I see why so many people love this vehicle.
    The only negative and it was a big one is there was a quite noticeable hesitation when accelerating which I wouldn't expect from a $55,000 vehicle.
    Others have posted on the LS thread in response that they too have the same problem with their LS430.
    It is especially noticeable on turns when you either take your foot off the accelerator or apply the brake and then after the turn is finished, you attempt to re-accelerate. For a long fraction of a second, nothing happens.
    I would invite other LS 430 owners to please let me know if they have a similar experience.
    I couldn't get over how you can set the ac vents so they rotate from left to right continuously.
    I also liked how the rear window's sunshade removes itself when you put it in reverse so the rear-view camera can do its thing.
    I felt very relaxed driving this vehicle but would not consider buying it with that annoying and sometimes scary hesitation.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I have an LS400 and it does hesitate oh so very briefly.... no biggie to me, personally... I don't zoom off at every stop light. I gently ease into traffic before my heavy foot takes over. And the big hunk LS obliges my heavy foot so readily, :)

    But, back to your test drive. Can you describe its handling with the summer shoes. Was it floaty or sure-footed ? Any leans around bends ? How 'bout straight-line acceleration ? Any ride, handling, performing issues you'd like to share ? Surely, you cannot disqualify a car bcos it hesitates so imperceptibly ? It gotta be a lot more than that, don't you think ? So let's hear it....
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    If you are implying by your questions, did it handle like my BMW? The answer is easy. No.
    It did seem floaty, sort of like riding high on springs. I didn't feel the road but that's the way it's supposed to be. That's the LS ride-love it or leave it. Apparently many love it. It did lean a bit around turns-not a lot. Better than I expected.
    Steering is a little lighter than I'm used to.
    Brakes are excellent-I floored it and stopped on a dime-nice and straight. The car accelerated straight too.
    This car will never be a sports sedan. It is what it is-relaxing and comfortable. It is not a car that likes to be pushed and I am used to pushing my cars.
    I accepted it for what it is and except for the hesitation found the experience quite relaxing.
    The difference is that when I got back in my BMW, I was so thankful to be at one with the road with a real driver's suspension and perfect steering. I push it and the car responds.
    For me, BMW's are just perfect but I respect you and everyone else here who love their LS 430's. Having driven it myself, I can appreciate where you all are coming from.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    "It is not a car that likes to be pushed and I am used to pushing my cars."

    Beg to differ.... The LS loves to be pushed. I certainly push mine every day, not being a blue-haired Floridian, you know :) That car moves, especially if you put it into the "Power" mode. Much better acceleration, despite its almost 2 tons of weight. I recall C&D obtained like 6.3s (Lexus claims 5.9s) 0-60 for an '04, back in a Dec 2003 comparo of super lux cars. That ain't bad for a big sedan.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I agree. It is a good car-especially for its bulk.
    But once you experience a BMW's driving dynamics, it is really hard to drive anything else. Absolute miracles of engineering.
    Now if only they could get their quality control act together.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    your test drive reminded me of mine.
    the LS is a nice vehicle but something
    was missing. it is a vehicle that is
    good at many things but sporty driving
    dynamics is not one of them. it all
    comes down to what is most important
    to each individual buyer. for
    me personally i felt the LS was designed
    for someone older...that i was not in
    it's demographic.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Yes. I do see why retirees like the LS 430. It is conservative, cushy, insulating the driver from any road feel. Very light on steering. Very comfortable seats. Good brakes.
    A lot of folks(not only retirees) desire exactly these things and Lexus delivers. This is the "luxury" experience that they have perfected.
    To each his/her own. I wouldn't like or respect anybody less because he/she drives an LS 430!
    I also drove the GS 430 and Lexus is more on target for me with this vehicle.
    Steering very well-weighted. Excellent cornering. Good straight-line acceleration. Brakes stop on a dime. Probably the best handling Lexus ever created.
    I would like to see the autorags do a comparison of the GS430 to the BMW 545 and the Audi A6. That should prove interesting!
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "Well then that progress to produce a sporty design took a long time - 100 years or so."

    Right, like other cars during those years, 4-door luxury cars to be exact had such swoopy designs. Like I said before this is all because Mercedes kills Lexus in design today so naturally the only defense is to reach back 30 years to knock Mercedes, when there was no Lexus to compare to because no doubt the Lexus would have looked far worse.

    "Sales - it reverts back to sales because that is the ultimate barmometer that is indisputable. Much of your stuff is subjective to each person which is quite disputable and always will be.

    Yep it sure is just like your theories about why people by and how they come to a decision about buying a car. You have no way of knowing anything about buyers reasons outside of your circle.

    "Surveys - what a ridiculous statement it is to say we buy because of surveys. Where were the surveys about Lexus in 1990?? Didn't exist of course. But the brand skyrocketed right out of the starting gate. It's too bad that the surveys bother you so much and you have to resort to nonsensical BS to try and counter them."

    Got me mixed up. Never stated that sir. Lexus didn't skyrocket at first either, they stayed behind Mercedes and BMW until the RX and the rest of their SUVs got popular. Sales, your favorite word, sales of their cars would put them behind MB, BMW, Cadillac and Acura if thats all they sold. They got lucky by catching the SUV wave while the Germans were not ready. Please stop pretending that all of their cars were stars before 1998. They weren't. The first ES250, GS300 and every edition of the GS and IS since have been duds. Lexus' only claim to fame before the RX was the LS400. Their other sedans were afterthoughts at best, and so was the original SC after Lexus left it on the market for 9 years with no real changes.

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "I did go way way overboard. I just can't stand that denaliipna and merc1 kept saying MB's style (which is so subjective) is better than Lexus. Even if MB were the same price as Lexus, I think Lexus still beats MB in safety, value and reliablity (all objective criteria)."

    Style is in the eye of the beholder for sure, but Lexus being better in safety? You're free to think what you want, but there is nothing to support that view. MB's do make Lexus' look like Maytags, very reliable but awful to look at.

  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    "I just wonder how MB can sell vehicles in the USA when Consumer Reports comes out in its highly influential April 2005 auto issue on page 18 predicting from its accumulation of previously submitted data that 2005 new car reliability across the MB brand should be about 80% below average.

    That is because you've been led to believe that CR should be the ultimate authority on cars for everyone and it cleary isn't. Believe it or not more than a few people couldn't care less what CR says. I think I ready where CR is used by about 40 percent of new car buyers, most of them clueless about other aspects of a car, that CR couldn't even begin to tell anyone about.

    Japanese cars in particular need glowing CR reviews, well at least Toyota/Lexus products do because in Lexus' case they surely aren't selling based on performance or styling. Consumer reports caters to those on this board that actually think consumers care about Toyota's earnings last quarter and other irrelevant stuff about behind the scenes corporate matters. For people who want an Audi, Land Rover, VW, or Mercedes based on the car itself CR is only good for wrapping fish heads.

    There are other factors when deciding on a car besides reliability. Not that reliability isn't important, but reading these boards every German car (except BMW according to one Lexus owner here) is just not capable of providing a rewarding experience. Yet there are satisfied MB owners on Edmunds, one of which owned a Lexus during the same timeframe as a Mercedes.

    It amazes me that BMW is thought of to be more reliable, yet the 7-Series, 5-Series and 6-Series, X5 and X3 have all been very problematic. This is why I don't take surveys as being the bible as Lexus fans do here.

    I suggested before that the BMW 3-Series is the model holding up BMW's score in the past, but nope that couldn't be possible to the survey chasers, though they sell over 100K 3-Series a year. Wouldn't they get the most surveys? The 3-Series has been out since 1999, so it should be pretty reliable, but here the finer points of these surveys are not even talked about. There was a Cadillac owner here some time back that said over and over how BMW was superior to Mercedes, yet they purchased a 2002 745i. A brand new model for which no survey could help them determine the reliability of a brand new car at the time. Needless to say that 745i was the worst car they've ever owned as far as reliability. Isn't CR the one that said a 1996 LS400 is more reliable than a new 7-Series?

  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    the new GS is interesting.
    not offensively styled or radically different. this segment will be a tough nut for Lexus to crack.
    i suspect it will sell well for the first 18 to 24 months. mainly because people who like this size Lexus have not had a new car for 6-7 years now. what makes the GS different when long term sales are figured in is that the buyer in the GS's segment imo puts sport over luxury when making a buying decision. the exact opposite of the LS. this has never been a Lexus strong point. plus the German competition are getting all new more powerful engines in their base V8's by the end of this year. 300hp will be on the low end compared to it's direct competitors.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    The new GS will be hot for about 2 years or less, just like the 1998 version was. When the new LSxxx arrives it will take the attention away just as it did at the end of 2000 when the new 2001 LS arrived. The problem is that the LS430's base price is too close to the GS430s and Lexus buyers as evidenced on this board don't care about sport, though some have convinced themselves that the LS can be "pushed" (right). When the typical Lexus buyer looks at the much bigger and more luxurious LS430 that only cost a little more than the GS430 the LS430 gets the sale.

    I'm sure Lexus will correct this with a higher base price for the next LS model, if they don't the GS430 in particular will lag again. That and when it comes to sports sedans I hardly see it beating the 5-Series and newcomer Infiniti M45 in a pure "sport" contest. The GS300 on the other hand has always sold better, but with the Infiniti M35 standing on its neck it seems a little overrun too.

    To be fair, they do have a GS450h hybrid coming that will get some serious headlines when it arrives for the 2007 model year, and the GS will no doubt get new engines for 2007 after the LS arrives so Lexus may keep the GS alive longer than 2 years this time around.

  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Posts: 169
    i wonder how high Lexus can really push
    the price of the LS. imo there is a point
    where most buyers will say ....i won't pay
    that much for an overpriced Toyota". whether it
    is fair or not i do think there is a ceiling
    to what Lexus can charge for a vehicle. Merc1 i said in an earlier post that Lexus just can't look upward at the Germans. they now have to watch the competition coming up from behind.
    it is strange that the brand as a whole can't support two 50k+ sedans. it is after all supposed to be a luxury brand?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    We'll see, but I'm guessing next time around the LS will be priced way above the GS if they want the GS to thrive. I'd say at the very, very least 60K, but more like 65K as a base and about 75-78K at the high end. In typical Lexus fashion they'll wait to see where the new S-Class is priced and try to come in right under the new S450's base price for their top of the line LS. I have to give them credit for pricing the LS so smartly but it has been a dual edged sword because pricing the LS so close to the GS430 killed the GS430 years ago, like only 150 units a month in the last few years for the GS430. The current GS/LS price relationship would be like if BMW and Mercedes priced the 745i/S430 within 5-7K of their 545i/E500 models, not smart.

    Long as they don't try to challenge Mercedes directly in price I don't think they'll run into too much price resistance.

  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    That is really nice.... I am teary-eyed already, reading Merc1 and Denali talk about Lexus with such candor and interest.... Could it be .... ? Nah....

    Talking of the new GS tho', two new engines and a hybrid are on the way - the 3.5L V6, that should put out 280+hp (due Fall 2006), the 4.6L V8 (due Fall 2006 on the LS), that should put out ~350hp, and the 450h with >330hp (due this year on the GS). Then, there is the 500GT, with a V12-like performance and a V6 fuel economy, in an LS500 LWB. And we don't know if they'll ever build the LF-A and/or the crossover LF-X. The IS gets a vert, coupe, AWD, sedan.... and a 300+hp 3.5L motor due here this Fall..... Hmmmmmm.... may be Lexus has a thing or two up its sleeves, don't you all think ???

    Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming, about how the LS430 is driven by old, blue-haired retired folks, while MBs and Audis are owned by yuppy 30-somethings...right ?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I am able to look at things objectively when others do the same...believe it or not. Its only when I read things like S600s and SL aren't luxury cars or that rear side airbags are a gimmick does the bs meter go into the red.

    "Talking of the new GS tho', two new engines and a hybrid are on the way - the 3.5L V6, that should put out 280+hp, the 4.6L V8, that should put out ~350hp, and the 450h (3.5L V6 mated to a single/or dual battery) with >330hp, then you got a real killer line-up in this segment. All of these by MY2007/08."

    This would be true if the others were going to just stand still. Lexus has better watch out for the Infiniti M35/45 lineup. It is just a matter of time before the E500 gets a new V8 and the 545i becomes the 360hp 550i, via the 750i's new V8. The hybrid will be an interesting car no doubt, but I'm betting on at least 400hp there if they want to be taken seriously by the performance crowd. While 400hp isn't going to even come close to the E55 or M5 or next RS6 it will provide an interesting alternative, mainly for being green. I see it more competing with the 440hp STS-V and Jaguar's S/XJ Type R's that that have around 400hp, but the German midsize tuner cars, 400hp isn't going to do much of anything.

    "Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming, about how the LS430 is driven by old, blue-haired retired folks, while MBs and Audis are owned by yuppy 30-somethings...right?"

    Of course not in every case, but I bet the demographic for Mercedes is younger, and I'm sure Audi and BMWs are. The LS and ES in particular are bought by more "mature" folks.

    BTW, Oac I happen to like what I've seen of the IS so far.

  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    "Unbalanced Whale?" This is utter nonsense. They even admitted the car wasn't equipped with the 18" tires and Euro Sport Suspension and admitted it was not a fair test. You're taking everything out of context.

    Don't try to twist the facts. C&D never said that the test was unfair. Why would C&D put together an article and then discredit themselves by saying it was an unfair test? Give me a break. The only thing C&D said was that the LS wasn’t equipped with sport suspension… and they only mentioned it in order to cover their [non-permissible content removed] and qualify the fact that they mistakenly awarded first place to the car with lateral grip worse than most trucks. Even though the LS was not tested with the Euro Sport suspension, it shouldn’t matter by your logic anyway. After all, it wasn't fair for me to compare the more powerful S500 to the LS430 so why should it be fair for anyone else to compare the optioned out LS430 with Euro-Sport vs. a base S430? Talk about a double standard. Even if the LS430 was equipped with these options, it still wouldn't be a BMW... or even an S for that matter, especially given the Lexus interpretation of "sport" that translates to "slightly more consistency than Jell-O with a hair less body roll than a boat". On another note, it is both humorous and telling that Lexus advertises its cars with so much European flair in an effort to disguise its roots. The stodgy narrator on their commercials has an uppity European accent and now they try to market "Euro sport" suspension... why not "Japanese Sport" suspension? Sounds like Lexus is trying to be something it isn't.

    Most every comparo I read says the car was competent but not very exciting. We've already had someone post the braking distance and the LS won by a foot. (hardly a win). And what exactly are the significance of skipad numbers? I take it we all race our cars somewhere on a track..Get real. Even the 0-60 numbers are pointless. Most of us just drive around town or to work with these cars. What's your point about a S500/600/55? It's not even a fair comparo to begin with. I would hope a 5.0L V8 or V-12 would run faster. You can only compare the S430 to the LS and not the S500.

    You're glossing over the details. Not only is the LS "not very exciting" in every comparo imaginable, but it's also the worst overall performer… every time. Wake me up when Lexus engineers a car that doesn't perform and handle like a bus. I don't have my Consumer Report library in front of me at the moment, but it would be interesting to see how the LS scored against the S430 in other performance aspects.

    For 13K less, the LS430 has more standard features than the S430. I shopped for both and I know what I'm talking about. They wanted 73K for a S430 4 Matic with Nav and a few other things. My 62K LS430 has way more features than the S430, and there is not a huge difference in performance. The LS is more spirited and comfortable, whilst the S is a bit harsher in ride but better at high speeds.

    For 13K less, you may get a better ratio of standard features, but once you add options to an S-Class you get more features overall. Besides, Lexus makes you pay for things like navigation and pre-safe, both of which Mercedes includes as standard. Anyway, something about your statement makes me skeptical. You say that you were looking at an "S430 for $73k" with "4-Matic, Nav and a few other things." Well that's very interesting considering that Navigation has been standard since the 2000 model year (optional with Lexus) and 4-matic is currently a no cost option (not available with Lexus).

    The frame construction is probably the biggest factor in the equation here. Electronics as you've mentioned aren't going to make a huge difference. I've mentioned the Airbus vs Boeing Argument. And you've failed to realize no sane CEO of any airline would fly a plane that was not as safe as a competitor. No competent industry insider would dare imply an Airbus is unsafe since it has fewer safety features than a 747.

    What are you talking about? If, as you say, an Airbus has fewer safety features than a 747, it is by default less safe... Hands down. More safety features = greater safety. CEOs pull this kind of crap all the time right under people's noses. The same is true in the auto-industry. The CEO of Lexus figures he can get away with skimping on safety features and waiting many years before adopting innovations pioneered by others because he knows that most people are ignorant sheep who can't tell the difference. Those loyal to the Lexus cult are eager to drink their special punch because they figure that Lexus can do no wrong, without even checking things out for themselves. For example, I think it was michael_mattox that didn't know that his LS didn't have rear side airbags... he just assumed it did. Assuming that a company “wouldn’t risk building an unsafe car” is completely absurd. Companies do it all the time… just look several GM and older Fords.

    It's like putting PreSafe in a Kia..You think all those electronics are going help if the Frame isn't built well? I'm sure MB has a great frame construction, but so does Lexus. I've taken a real world crash in my LS400 and it barely moved despite being hit at 35MPH from the side. Granted there was 7K worth of damage to it, but it kept everyone in the car safe

    Yes, frame strength is one aspect that contributes to overall safety. But I’m not sure why you assume that Lexus has equally good frame construction. Personal anecdotes are nice but aren’t exactly the best indicator of vehicle safety. I’m sure that more than one person has wrapped their Cavalier around a tree and lived to tell about it, but I think that both of us can agree that the Cavalier is probably one of the least safe cars on the road. Just because you got lucky one time doesn’t mean anything. Now, I’m not saying that the LS is unsafe per say, but I am saying that you can buy safer.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    Your Logic would make Chrysler and Mercedes the same company...Heck Chrysler is carrying Mercedes.

    There is a HUGE difference between the Toyota/Lexus connection and the Mercedes/Chrysler connection. Mercedes and Chrysler were independent companies long before 1998 when Daimler-Benz purchased Chrysler group. Despite financial links, Mercedes maintains its independence as a separate entity from its corporate siblings. On the other-hand we have Toyota/Lexus. This isn’t a matter of one company owning another company or one company merging with another company… Lexus quite literally IS Toyota in every sense. In Japan you won’t find a domestic Lexus LS430 on the road but you will see plenty of Toyota Celisors. “Lexus” was just re-badge stunt pulled here in the U.S. to lure unwitting American’s into paying $60k for a Toyota. So yes, Lexus and Toyota are the same company… its been that way from the beginning.

    All the Technology in the World is valueless if it doesn't work properly ..As I recall someone has already posted a list of often purchased parts that could effect the safety of the car.

    There was so much wrong with that link I’m not sure where to begin. He tried to pull a fast one on all of us by posting some sort of amateur “e-bay seller site” and then telling us that it was definitive proof of Mercedes reliability issues. Furthermore, he claimed that he “didn’t see Lexus” on this oh-so-professional and accurate website… which would make sense considering it was a European site and Lexus doesn’t even appear on the radar in Europe. I countered by listing a news release that told of a recent recall of 150k Camry’s due to defective side airbags. Furthermore, I linked to an insurance page that listed several “safety problems” with Lexus vehicles. The point is, if you’re going to provide “proof” of Mercedes reliability issues, at least provide some credible proof. Also, if you’re going to preach about the reliability, don’t pretend that Lexus is invincible.

    Rear seat airbags are of little value the Curtins that protect your head and the seatbelts are the essentual safety features...So Called safety features with little more value then bragging effect is worth how much?

    Wrong. I am simply floored by this comment. I understand that you may want to mitigate Lexus’ disregard for safety by belittling the importance of side airbags, but you simply cannot. Side airbags are vital in any type of side impact. Side head airbags (pioneered by BMW) ONLY protect the head. Side airbags provide protection for the torso and pelvis that a seatbelt alone cannot. The presence of a side airbag can mean the difference between life and death. Just look at some of the side impact tests on the IIHS website and notice how cars without side airbags score extremely poorly and those same cars with side airbags score markedly better. Saying that side airbags are unimportant is just as ridiculous as saying front airbags and seatbelts are frivolous features.

    They once did have a great reputation for safety and innovation...If I were buying a 60s or 70s or even 80s car it would be a Mercedes..Times change many cars now have learned from Mercedes and even helped move many of Mercedes safety innovations into the 21st. Century, The result is many cars now rival Mercedes in the area of safety.

    The problem with this statement is that Mercedes STILL DOES have a great reputation for safety and innovation. You speak in the past tense, that they “did” have a great reputation, even though Mercedes has been churning out safety innovations throughout the 90s and into the present. Please, explain to me how others have “helped move many innovations into the 21st century.” Last I checked, Mercedes was the one of the only ones pioneering these advances and furthermore had all the latest and greatest features years before Lexus. Only Volvo and BMW come close to matching the sheer number of Mercedes safety innovations. Lexus has contributed absolutely nothing and continues to leach off the R&D of others to this day.

    You constantly talk about cost cutting in the Lexus...That is true but far from the Negative you seem to want to project it to be.

    It seems pretty negative to me that Lexus decided to skimp and save $100 on their flagship sedan by not including rear side airbags. It seems pretty negative to me that Lexus decides to nickel and dime its customers for optional safety features like pre-safe. It seems pretty negative that Lexus waits upwards of 4 years before adopting critical safety features on its models like ESC and head airbags, and even then makes some of these features optional / half-assed on lower priced models. Correct me if I’m wrong, but these are just a few of the many instances of Lexus cost cutting that seem pretty negative…

    The cost saving results partially from Lexus perfected heavy use of robots to build cars...the resulting percision is one of the primary reasons for the Lexus Reliability EDGE....

    Again, I already acknowledge that Lexus is more reliable. In fact, reliability is the only redeeming value of Toyota. Hopefully Toyota will force MB to make its cars more reliable, and then people won't have any reason to preach about the virtues of Lexus. However, for me reliability takes a back seat on my priority list when I shop for a car.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    Tiag, you wrote “sorry but 0-60 times aren't the only measure of performance”. Well, the existence of rear side door airbags or anti-rollover bars isn’t the only measure of safety.

    You're right, but they certainly carry a lot of weight when measuring safety. And please don't be mistaken, these feature absences are only two of many among the various Lexus vehicles where corner cutting has reared its head.

    What you haven’t shown is how the absence of those safety features outweighs the less reliable brakes of the S. Last I checked, brakes are a safety item, no? CR’s reliability data for the S’s brakes, 2000 to 2003 model year cars (-2=poor to +2=excellent) (sample size inadequate to generate ratings for other years:

    Well first of all CR is a fraud. Second of all, "reliability issues" with brakes has a wide array of meanings. You make it sound like the brakes on the S-class will just stop working without warning. I assure you that this isn't the case or else there would be a massive NHTSA recall coupled with high profile lawsuits. The issue with S-Class brakes isn't with the brakes failing to work. I would guess that the issues reported to crackpot CR probably read along the lines of "pre-mature wear" due to soft high-friction pads, or the failure of a brake assist computer on startup diagnostic.

    Now maybe more reliable brakes are more important than ‘missing’ safety features, and maybe they’re not. I can’t prove it either way, and neither can you. So why don’t you just admit that there is no conclusive objective evidence that the S is safer overall than the LS, and give the whole safety issue a rest?

    Please, if you have any data that suggests that MB brakes on the S-class simply fail without warning, I'm all ears. Otherwise, I wouldn't be concerned about false pad wear alarms. I would however, be concerned by the multitude of Lexus safety corner cutting found throughout their model line.
  • tiag_m5tiag_m5 Posts: 54
    I did go way way overboard. I just can't stand that denaliipna and merc1 kept saying MB's style (which is so subjective) is better than Lexus.

    So you can't stand that denaliipna and merc1 are correct? Yes this is a subjective area, but in my opinion MB styling is much better than Lexus. Lexus has no design identity of its own. All Lexus does is mix and match design elements from other brands to form a bland mutt of a car. For years Lexus has been ripping off Mercedes, but I think the most blatant imitation has to be the current LS, which was heavily influenced by the S. The few times that Lexus has ventued off on its own without holding Mercedes' hand has been disasterous. The ES looks like utter trash and the SC430 is quite possibly the ugliest car on the road.

    Let those people buy those European junk cars. They will learn except for those fanatics. I and all the friends and relatives did learn from mistakes. Does MB know that if Lexus didn't exist, they would sell a lot more cars? Again look at electronics. I used to own German TVs, but now I only buy Japanese.

    No, you don't sound like a Lexus fanatic at all. Not one bit. In fact, it sounds like you have done plenty of research and applied much logic to support your "European junk" claim. :sarcasm: As far as your TV analogy is concerned...Apples and Oranges. Did you know that MB outsells Lexus around the globe and in America MB sells more cars than Lexus? The RX SUV (aka raised Camry) is the only reason why Lexus total sales in the U.S. are higher than MB. All that will change shortly with the new M-class :)

    Even if MB were the same price as Lexus, I think Lexus still beats MB in safety, value and reliability (all objective criteria).

    Reliability and value maybe. But definitely not safety. Please, I am interested in your logic as to why Lexus is safer than MB. Is it because Lexus never innovates in safety? Is it because Lexus is slow to adopt safety features? Is it because Lexus doesn't offer as many safety features as MB? That is a very interesting perspective indeed... :/ Especially considering that MB spanks Lexus in all three areas: Innovation/Introduction/Features
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Yeah I too couldn't believe that about the side airbags being basically called a gimmick or just for bragging rights, yet Lexus will no doubt have them on the next LS. Imagine if a Mercedes didn't have a safety feature like that when every other car in the segment had it. Then you'd see a complete about-face on the subject.

    Its the same thing about roll-over protection the SC430, all you'll get is that it has a better sound/Nav system. I couldn't believe that from what is supposed to be a logical thinking group of buyers of a 60K+ convertible!

    When you read things like that you realize that all logic has gone out the window in order to detract attention from such obvious and glaring shortcomings.

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