High End Luxury Cars

joshusmith

I am not sure what your deifnition of best engines is, but in my book mercedes makes the worst engines:

1. Worst in class fuel economy
2. lacking behind in smoothness. I test drove S550 and I am not impressed. Looking forward to the new LS.

dewey

The navigation system, equipped with Clear Channel’s award-winning traffic service, will become available as early as mid-September making BMW of North America the first U.S. auto manufacturer to offer real time traffic as a standard, lifetime service feature on navigation-equipped vehicles.

ClearChannel

topspin628

I'm in So Cal on business and it's S Class R Us out here. I counted about 15 S550's today alone.
It's still the car to be seen in in Beverly Hills and the new one seems to be ubiquitous.
Also, more Bentley per square mile than any other place I've been to. Gotta love it.

guest

Didn't mean to imply you are a "hater", just that you were using the "hater" argument.

PHENOMENAL WORD (the "h" word), even doh the Thought Police "h" it! :P

You are still kinda kool with me.

Sometimes. :P

The only people who deride the 8-speed are people with a vested interest in the LS being seen as a step below the Germans.

And let me state for the record, I don't hate the Germans, the S550, or even the "Internationally-known" Audi A8 (Hemi).

I am just showing how the LS is, at worst, easily holding it's own against the ANY luxury sedan.

If someone is making a truly superior car, I haven't seen it yet, and would like to at my earliest convenience.

DrFill

drfill

Leader of the "Lexus Can't School of Technology".

Now when Lexus DOES innovate, what do we have to say?

I don't know exactly who you are referring to, but I haven't downplayed the 7-speed in the E/S-Class, nor Mercedes overall.

Mercedes makes a great acronym! They can make all sorts of systems and body control systems, and safety features, and they have helped raise the state-of-the-art. Not gonna dispute that.

Lexus' Innovation is in changing the rules of the game. Now things like Dependability studies, and ergonomics, and ride quality, and efficiency, and NVH are what makes a luxury car special to many owners.

The buying experience, the service experience, the ownership experience.

These are Lexus' true "Innovations".

And these have changed how Americans view luxury cars. The things you don't see on the window sticker.

And Mercedes is studying this playbook. Hard.

And both companies are better due to the other's strengths. They have both learned from success.

Personally, I believe the S550 has met it's match in the Next LS.

And that "feeling of power" of which you speak, I believe that's called "torque".

370 lb. ft should be more than enough.

Thank You.

DrFill

tagman

If someone is making a truly superior car, I haven't seen it yet, and would like to at my earliest convenience.

I get your point, but . . .

The S600 comes to mind, as does the S65 AMG. I'll bet you that they are truly fantastic cars that have more power, performance, luxury and style all rolled together than just about anything else out there.

Also . . . I definately expect the LS600hL will be a special car. As you know, I have suspected that it might be the first and only LS that will spark my interest. I expect it to be an ultimate HELM, of sorts, and certainly an exclusive vehicle.

But the standard LS460? Sure, it's gonna be a nice car, you know, but how excited can one get over something like that?

TagMan

tagman

And that "feeling of power" of which you speak, I believe that's called "torque".

370 lb. ft should be more than enough.

Whoa! This is where you do yourself no favors. The LS460 may have credentials, but when it comes to power and torque, the S550 has 391 lb-ft , and at a mere 2,800 rpm. The engine is barely turning, and yet it delivers that torque. The LS460 is no match for this.

The LS460 is efficient, though, considering it's reasonable acceleration and good fuel economy, and THAT is where you should be bragging, IMO. Credit where credit is due, right Doc?

BTW, your OK in my book . . . on occasion.

TagMan

merc1

Guy your post is so far off in left-field I honestly don't think it is worth debating.

Most of the technologies in LS 460 are original and unprecedented.

If you read my original post on this matter you will see where I said that Lexus' engine technology is where they've truly innovated. Specifically their direct injection, and electronic valve control. Now as far as the rest of the "technologies" on the LS640, please oh please tell me what they've done that wasn't present in some form or another in a Mercedes before. Everything from their rear-impact safety system to their self-adjusting cruise control is either on the S550 or some version thereof. Now if you have proof otherwise I'd love to see it.

Whether its inefficient engines, or safety technology, or driving dynamics, mercedes lacks and lags behind everywhere.

Nonsense and the part the reall dubunks this is the part about dynamics. The previous LS430 of which I've driven drove like a barge and the previous S-Class doesn't. Period. Mercedes lagging Lexus in safety technology when Lexus can't even give their 60K+ convertible the same roll-over technology a 20K VW New Beetle has along with every other German convertible on the market. Lexus didn't introduce anything similar to Mercedes pre-safe until years later, yet Mercedes lags? Yeah only when looking through Lexus provided glasses.

When LS 460 was introduced, S550 became obsolete that very day. A stunning achievement for Lexus. But I am not surprised. Lexus has always been years ahead of mercedes anyway.

What mercedes could not achieve in 120 years, Lexus achieved in less than 17.

Hyundai refused to collaborate with daimler as they think its below their dignity.

My mistake I thought you had a logical argument, not a bunch brand-hate driven nonsense. Not even the most jaded Lexus fan will go for this set.

M

merc1

Lexus' Innovation is in changing the rules of the game. Now things like Dependability studies, and ergonomics, and ride quality, and efficiency, and NVH are what makes a luxury car special to many owners.

The buying experience, the service experience, the ownership experience.

These are Lexus' true "Innovations".
And these have changed how Americans view luxury cars. The things you don't see on the window sticker.

And Mercedes is studying this playbook. Hard.

And both companies are better due to the other's strengths. They have both learned from success.

Ok, I'll go for that because it is true. Service thy name is Lexus, though these aren't traditional or conventional innovations, but they have shaped the industry. Also, by that same token there are things about a Mercedes that aren't obvious either until after you experience one, also not part of the window sticker. No amount of studies or surveys will convey this which is why Mercedes still has their position despite Lexus' best efforts.

And that "feeling of power" of which you speak, I believe that's called "torque".

370 lb. ft should be more than enough.

You're not getting the point doc. The point is that the LS460's smaller V8 has to work for that torque it is farther up on the dial than Mercedes' is hence the need for 8 gears to get the LS460 to match the acceleration of the S550.

I see your fellow Lexus fans are tearing the C&D review apart, but this is the same group that agreed with C&D each and everytime they put the LS430 over the competition. Touted the C&D comparo's as every turn, but now C&D is clueless and/or has something personal against Lexus. Hilarious!

M

blkhemi

My point exactly Merc. C&D was the "it" mag when they pitted it against the S430, and it won. I can never forget it as it comes up on topic here at least once a month.

But now the tables have turned. Too tall gearing? Same boring wallow body motions? Not as quiet as before? Is this a Lexus? These are all of the things they said.

Even the R/T issue has said that the LS460 Standard is in no comparison to it's competition in terms of room and overall feel. So much for everyone loving Lexus.

drfill

And a cool reception by one editor doesn't change that.

That's why I love their comparisons. You get a well-thought out collective, that takes into account pre-conceived notions, expectations, and biases, and puts them up against significant objective test data, and hundreds of miles of road tests, and when the dust settles, even the "non-lovers" (Thought police) must bow down to the facts, not fiction of situation. There can only be one.

When their comparison comes out, I expect by next month, we'll all see the light.

If the LS takes 2nd, for once, I can handle that.

I'm just tired of the lack of respect. It is as good as any German lux car.

S65 and S600 notwithsatnding.

I can build a pretty luxurious car, if price were no object.

DrFill

dewey

When their comparison comes out, I expect by next month, we'll all see the light.

If the LS takes 2nd, for once, I can handle that.

I'm just tired of the lack of respect. It is as good as any German lux car.

In all honesty Doc what difference will it make to you whether the LS is number one or two? An LS460 that is priced like an LPS(5 series or E Class) and can compete with HELMS deserves a lot of respect.

There are forum members here who boast that an S600 ( more than two times the price of an LS) or S65(more than 3 times the price) can compete with an LS. That in itself is a true teastement of how much respect the LS has among both German and Japanese car fans alike. (althought the former are not as willing to confess their LS admriation so openly)

Car prices in this forum are discussed as if they were quoted in Monopoly Play Money. But if it was my own real $$$ from my own pocketbook then I would definitely save my money and buy an LS over an S-Class anyday.(assuming my choice was solely restricted to these two cars)

But in reality my choice was not restricted to two cars. I bought a "LPS" 5 series Touring instead of a "HELM" LS. Surprisingly an LS would not have been significantly more expensive than my wagon. My choice was based primarily on my preferences for a tighter ride ,a manual tranny and a family bias towards wagons.

tagman

I can build a pretty luxurious car, if price were no object.

That's kinda the point on this forum, isn't it? . . . we're talkin 'bout vehicles that span a LARGE price frontier.

It's one thing to just look at the cars as the machines they are, and it's quite another to consider their price tags.

Once the price is considered, the perspective is very skewed. After all, when price is a major consideration, the Lexus LS460 really shines, doesn't it? That's been obvious for years now.

As the importance of the price tag is reduced, it immediately opens up the merits of the Jaguar XJ, the Mercedes S-Class, the Audi A8, and the BMW 7-Series.

Further monetary freedom brings us the Bentley, the higher-level S-Class models, the Q, and the RR.

So . . . how should we really factor in the money when we are comparing these cars? Personally, I think it goes both ways. First, we just plain take a good look at the cars for what they truly are, without regards for the price. Raw data.

But then, we must consider just how much green it takes to purchase one, and even consider the cost-of-ownership, as well as the reliability and dependability.

Bottom line . . . when an evaluation of a vehicle is made . . . we should ask ourselves, is that with or without consideration of the price . . . because that has surely proven to change people's perspective . . . for obvious reason . . . price is very important to the vast majority.

TagMan

Kirstie_H

A large national newspaper is doing a story on how cars increasingly are computers. The reporter is looking for people with cars that have had difficulty getting repaired because of the knowledge needed to fix them or the code requirements needed to fix are often not provided to non-dealers, or the cost to fix was outrageous. Please send an e-mail to ctalati@edmunds.com no later than Wednesday, September 13, 2006 by 2:30 PM PT/5:30 PM ET containing your daytime contact information and what car you currently own and the issue.

tagman

blkhemi - I think you are right about the Jaguar XKR - the more I read about it, the more there is to like about it. I think it could bolster Jag's image a little bit, but much more importantly, let's just hope that something positive comes out of that vehicle in terms of sales.

TagMan

blkhemi

I respect your posts on many levels, but this one left me a bit unsure.

The S600 and a LS460 are on two different playing fields. Even when the LS600hL debuts, it still won't cut the beans like the ultimate luxury S600 can and does. This is not to say that the LS can't compete at all, it does, in fact damn good. But saying they're alike is akin to saying the S550 is in the same boat. It isn't.

And on pricing: In this class of car, rarely the people that are able to afford such a car are subject not to buy the car based on pricing. Sure many have saved thousands and purchased an LS over the S, but does that make the S less attractive because it has a higher price? Absolutely not. The saying goes, you get what you pay for(please don't read into this as the LS not being worth what it is, because it is and some). The same can be said about buying a house. I see a $450k house on one side of the street, but in the same neighborhood, there is a $1M house at the corner with more ammenities and a higher cachet than all the rest of the houses on the block. Is that house on the corner just an overpriced home or is the house down the street seen as just a lower-priced alternative?

In saying all of this, to each it's own. Buy what makes you happy and live with it. Whether it's a $65k LS, a $90k S550, a $3M home, or a $15M Catamaran, do what makes you happy(or what's affordable).

blkhemi

I will go on record: The XKR is better looking than the following: XLR, SC, SL, 911, and only semi better than the sexy Vette.

The more I look at this car the more I am happy with the direction Jag took with the XKR iteration of the XK. The hugely understated but very sculpturous and sexy XKR is the car that I've been waiting on Jag to build, just like the old XJS' of the 70's and 80's(electrical probs not withstanding).

I think that this car will be a pivotal point for Jag as a brand and will improve it's image.

The car is not the most powerful. Not the most expensive. And not the fastest. But boy does it look good and when it is in motion, the car is just immaculate. Well done Jag.

lexusguy

blkhemi - I think you are right about the Jaguar XKR - the more I read about it, the more there is to like about it. I think it could bolster Jag's image a little bit, but much more importantly, let's just hope that something positive comes out of that vehicle in terms of sales.

The XKR makes the 650i look that much uglier. The SL550 is still a good looking car, but it doesn't turn heads like it did at launch. The Jag will also probably be more reliable than both (provided they can keep the gasoline inside the tank, that is)

hpowders

I guess C&D wasn't intimidated by the awesome financial power of Toyota/Lexus as predicted.

dewey

Likewise I respect your posts and please allow me to clarify my last post.

We all know with a fair degree of certainty that the S Class will beat the upcoming LS in the majority of future compaison test drives just as the S Class beat the LS in the majority of past test drives.

Having said that I still think it is very impressive that the LS is considered a contender to cars that are substantially pricier. I mean how many cars priced like an LS are seriously compared with HELM vehicles? NONE! And that was my whole point.

BUT in no way am I suggesting that buying either an S550, S600 or S65 is a waste of money. The S Class is superior and it is up to each buyer to determine if that superiority is worth the extra $$$.

That is exactly what I did with my car. I bought an LPS(BMW 5 Serie Touring) at about the same price as a HELM (Lexus LS). To many that may seem illogical but for me it was a worthy transaction.

tagman

The XKR makes the 650i look that much uglier. The SL550 is still a good looking car, but it doesn't turn heads like it did at launch. The Jag will also probably be more reliable than both (provided they can keep the gasoline inside the tank, that is)

The recent gas tank issue, which is unfortunate of course, was isolated to be within a production sequence of '06 & '07 XJ's. It has absolutely nothing to do with the XKR.

FYI, during the last two years alone, Toyota has had to recall more than a staggering 1,750,000 vehicles worldwide! And these recalls were major, as they were regarding a potential loss of steering!

Given that history, when referring to the new Lexus LS460 it could by the same token, more appropriately be said, "nice car . . . provided they can keep it steering, that is"!

TagMan

syswei

The previous Lexus LS430 is an astonishingly good car, superior in many ways, but it is just not quite in the class of the Germans when you talk about driving dynamics. That all changes for 2007. The new LS460 is not just the peer of the leading trio, it provides a new benchmark for the category.

syswei

I recall a comment by someone that the S would remain the benchmark of the class. I guess at least Automobile Magazine thinks otherwise.

But of course, the reviews are not all 100% in the LS's favor. And they can't be expected to be. The S has some strenths and the LS others, so how a reviewer perceives the cars depends on their personal preferences. Just like us consumers.

syswei

What amazes me is the blind faith people have in brands.

Yes, it can be frustrating to see people let their blind faith twist their mind into totally illogical reasoning.

There are lexicans that obviously believe Toyota/Lexus is infallible, and that there is something wrong with any reviewer that is too harsh about any aspect of a Lexus.

And there are germancarfans who don't seem to have any need to read reviews concerning Lexus, or test drive a Lexus, because they already KNOW that a Lexus just has to be boring and have worse driving dynamics that not just BMW, but MB; and they also know that there is something wrong with any reviewer who puts Lexus ahead of MB/BMW/Audi for any reason other than price.

designman

You should really keep that blasphemy (sic) to the LS board. You know nobody here wants to hear that nonsense.

Not true. Having the lowest priced car as the benchmark suits me just fine, make that perfectly. Depends how they interpret "benchmark".

In the end my review trumps them all as a buyer. What I don't understand is the blind faith people have in brands and how anyone can buy a new car and shake the pom poms without testing it.

designman

Sorry, I deleted my original message because it was meant as a reply for Doc.

tagman

OK . . . so now to balance some of the overly negative perspectives, we hear this. It stands to reason that there will be some reviews at the extremes, both positive and negative. In the end, when the dust settles, most reviews will not be extremely in favor or against the LS, they will be more balanced.

The final Reader's Digest Condensed Version of all the reviews combined will reveal that overall . . . little has changed.

TagMan

syswei

The final Reader's Digest Condensed Version of all the reviews combined will reveal that overall . . . little has changed.

Not sure I agree with you. In the final analysis, there is room for relative movement. In other words, in looking at any particular metric, where once there was a big difference, there might now be a small difference.

syswei

As could be judged from a day driving a 2007 LS 460 L on the roads north of San Francisco, the effort that Lexus has put into the car's design and construction was very worthwhile. The LS 460 is a major step forward for Lexus. As comfortable and inviting as the Exectuive Class right rear seat may be, the driver's seat is just as good in its own way. Previous LS generations were not known as driver's cars, in the manner made famous by the Germans. This one is. Even in long-wheelbase form, with the standard suspension, it handled the narrow, twisting, and indifferently-paved roads of Marin County with continental aplomb. Acceleration and braking were spectacular, and, even though the L weighs in at over 4300 pounds and is by no means small, it was remarkably nimble. For the first time I can remember in a Lexus, there was a the feeling of a direct connection with the road. Nothing intrusive, but nowhere near as isolated as previous Lexuses.

source

hpowders

"Lexus LS Performance Numbers Disappoint"

"The Lexus LS460 fell short of its claimed 0-60 mph time of 5.4 seconds in a road test in the latest issue of Car And Driver magazine. The C&D testers couldn't get the car to complete the sprint in any less than 6.0 seconds. Braking distances were unusually long. The car took 209 feet to come to a stop from 70 mph, the magazine said. That's nearly the same as the GMC Sierra's 210 foot braking distance. The new Mercedes S-Class, by comparison, takes 172 feet to stop from the same speed."

syswei

This has been reported before. I actually let my C&D subscription lapse (due to my laziness). Were they testing a pre-production car?

Anyway, if the other mags come in with similar numbers in their full road tests, then Lexus has a problem.

hpowders

Well I just went to Publix and read the original C&D article, where the data were confirmed.
They don't indicate whether it was a pre-production vehicle.

The acceleration I can live with-mid 5's or 6 seconds. Either number is fast.

The braking number is a different story and I find the result disturbing.

Anyhow, we have not yet obtained a comprehensive full test of this vehicle here in the States.

A lot of "first drives."

Let's hope the braking thing was a pre-production fluke.

I will find out for myself on November 19th at the Lexus "Taste." I hope they have one with the sportier suspension available for me to drive.

Also, looking forward to driving the GS450h because I have never driven a hybrid vehicle.
But that trunk: 7.5 cubic feet.

Yikes! :surprise:

guest

My first love, the 1993 Supra Turbo, had many great tests, but it's "First Test" in C&D was misleading.

It posted a 4.6 0-60 time, and a braking distance of 170ft.

In the ensuing comparison, 0-60 time climbed to 5.2 (still Best in Class).

And later tests got braking down to 147ft from 60 (an All-Time Record for C&D until recently).

Tires, raod conditions, temp., humidity, all play a factor in a cars acceleration and/or braking, and different days/cars/locations yield different numbers.

Over the past 7-8 years, Lexus vehicles may not be the best handlers, but their braking performance has been Top-notch. As are Toyotas as well.

I expect a 5.7 0-60 time and braking from 170-180 ft in the upcoming comparison test.

DrFill

killerbunny

Agreed. Acceleration and braking depend heavily on temperature and road conditions. Unless there is a side-by-side comparison of LS460/BMW 7xx/MB Sxxx, we just don't know.

dewey

Syswei pasted the following 2 statements from Automobile Magazine and AutoChannel:

1)The previous Lexus LS430 is an astonishingly good car, superior in many ways, but it is just not quite in the class of the Germans when you talk about driving dynamics. That all changes for 2007. The new LS460 is not just the peer of the leading trio, it provides a new benchmark for the category.

I have not yet read the Automobile Magazine but did this reviewer actually test drive the other competing cars side by side with the LS460? And if he did not then that makes his benchmark assessment completely worthless.

2)For the first time I can remember in a Lexus, there was a the feeling of a direct connection with the road. Nothing intrusive, but nowhere near as isolated as previous Lexuses.

So the LS has improved? Thank goodness! How good will it be relative to the competition? That will be confirmed by upcoming comparison test drives(personal and from journalitsts).

DrFill wrote the following:

I'm just tired of the lack of respect. It is as good as any German lux car.

The above sounds like a Rodney Dangerfield quote. Your hunger for LS respect does not in any way exude much confidence about the car itself.

ilijabmw

Have you guys seen this article? Dan Neil just tears the LS460 apart...

http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil30aug30,0,675511- 8.story?coll=la-home-highway1

but the thing is... has he even test drove the LS? :mad:

dewey

Over the past 7-8 years, Lexus vehicles may not be the best handlers, but their braking performance has been Top-notch. As are Toyotas as well.

What makes you think they were the best handlers before 7 to 8 years? :confuse:

tagman

Have you guys seen this article? Dan Neil just tears the LS460 apart...

We've all been up and down that road immediately after it was published. Hpowders and some others were almost ready to go to Los Angeles and give Dan Neil a black eye.

It's just the way it is . . . there will be extreme views for the negative, and there will be extreme views for the positive. Most reviews will be more or less balanced, and in the end they will all average out to tell us that this new LS460 has improved over the last LS, but in comparison to the BMW and Mercedes, it is still the reliable comfy couch with some improvement to the driving dynamics, and of course a good value, but the true performers are still the European counterparts.

Bottom line . . . things are pretty darned similar to what they've been before . . . and the debates will continue . . . and be mostly the same as before.

TagMan

dewey

I would just like to make a brief personal non-HELM announcement.

I am most likely going to add a new member to my family (currently a 06 530xi Touring and a 83 MB300D). This week I intend to pre-order a BMW335i sedan (conditional on my test drive---I am 99.999% confident I will love it).

I feel like a proud papa and if there were virtual cigars I would pass them around to fellow forum members

hpowders

to see a comprehensive review or comparo of the LS460 in any of the American auto magazines.

Better to wait and have these guys test a representative vehicle rather than a hurry-up "first drive" with a pre-production model.

As I have previously stated, it all comes down to the brakes.

hpowders

What makes you think you will love it?

tagman

This week I intend to pre-order a BMW335i sedan (conditional on my test drive---I am 99.999% confident I will love it).

I feel like a proud papa and if there were virtual cigars I would pass them around to fellow forum members

Good enough . . . I'll light one up for ya, Dewey. Congrats.

Keep us posted!

TagMan

topspin628

Congrats! I think you will love it too. My 330i was my all time favorite car and I will go back to the 3 series eventually. I just like to change it up from car to car.

Will the 335 sedan have the twin turbo engine?

dewey

Thanks HP and Tagman,

What is there to like?

I can give you at least a 100 reasons, no in fact make that a 1000 reasons at the 2007 BWM 335i coupe forum.

Will the 335 sedan have the twin turbo engine?

Yes based on what they say at Motor Trend and Road & Track and in the ELPSthere are reports that there is a price list for the sedan. And in the Coupe 335i forum a customer has already placed an order.

I will confirm if this is true or not with my own dealer tomorrow.

dhamilton

These eyes have seen the price list. The base sedan is like $38,700. No standard sport suspension unlike the coupe. It will most defiantly have the twin turbo.

dewey

Not a bad price even if I have to add an additional option.

tagman

If it comes as a convertible (hopefully retractable hardtop) with the twin turbo, then even I'm interested!

TagMan

hpowders

As for me, I would go for the Coupe.
In addition to great performance, it is quite simply the best looking BMW available.

blkhemi

Congrats on your eventual order.

My brother is in Germany right now, and he has informed me that the 335i w/6-speed scoots to 60 in under 5 secs. If I'm not mistaken, this is encroaching on M3 territory, at least for now anyway. But his German-spec 3 did have Launch Control, something we Americans can only dream of.

I will definetely add the 335i to my list of cars to check out this fall/winter as I will be selling my daughter's S4 Cab later this week to a Long Island up and comer.

The 335i will join the list of the new G35 6MT and '07 A4 3.2L DSG Quattro. I haven't read anything on the new C-Class or the new Caddy CTS.

BTW: I only have 3 weeks left until I wrap my hands around the thick-rimmed steering wheel of my new S8. The car is said to port here on Sept. 30 and will be done with dealer prep(XM, leather protect, wheel center caps, etc) on Oct. 2. I can't wait. MB said that the S600 is on schedule, so I'm highly anticipating this one.

lexusguy

The 335i will join the list of the new G35 6MT and '07 A4 3.2L DSG Quattro. I haven't read anything on the new C-Class or the new Caddy CTS.

C&D really liked the G35 6MT sport. There were no complaints about the steering, or overly stiff ride as in the Edmunds review. They did complain however, that its a little too much of an evolutionary improvement compared to the last car. The review hinted that the 3 is still ultimately the better car, but that the G35 may win the comparison test on its price advantage. They also said that there's now absolutely no reason to buy the IS350.