High End Luxury Cars



  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    For 2000 Rolls and Bentley sedans do have an electronic stability program.

  • hello25hello25 Member Posts: 30
    Rolls Royce built quality is limited to interior materials and craftsmanship.
    You would not have a romantic idea of Rolls Royce quality if:

    1. the transmission was made by GM
    2. the radio was made by GM Delco
    3. the car had oversteer like an American car from
    4. the windows went down and refused to go back up
    5. the dash lights went out and refused to come
    back on

    For 2000 Rolls and Bentley sedans have an electronic stability program? They're going to need it.
  • justiceisdeadjusticeisdead Member Posts: 10
    Moddy L8_Apex is going to kill me...


    I don't knock things like ESC or Xenon headlamps, but the reason I call them gimmicks is because most everyone does fine without them. My car has a cheap (compared to the systems on the cars we've been talking about) traction control system that uses the rear drum brakes and throttle to control wheel spin on a slippery surface. It may be crude compared to the systems found on Benzes, but it gets the job done nevertheless.

    Skid control? It's a great feature I suggested should be put on the next generation Fleetwood Brougham, but all I need to do is just drive slower in bad weather to accommodate for sharp turns and the like. With a little investment, I could easily have a Xenon HID headlamp system installed on my vehicle. Will I need it? Probably not... I don't usually drive during the night at high speeds thinking I'm Bob Bondurant.

    Like I said, not everybody needs (or wants) these perks. Granted, they are beneficial, but who really thinks about them?


    Assuming that post was directed towards me (and I apologize if that assumption is wrong), all I have to say is this:

    "the transmission was made by GM"

    Don't get me started on GM transmissions... I curse the 4L60-E in my Cadillac.

    "the radio was made by GM Delco"

    After reprogramming the equalizer settings (something most people don't know how or CARE to do), that AC Delco stereo makes this country bumpkin think he's in Carnegie Hall whenever he pops in a cassette of Claude Debussy or Johnny Mathis.

    "the car had oversteer like an American car from 1965"

    For your information, I happen to like that "pinky finger" steering. I'm so used to it by now that I have no complaints about it. It's strictly a matter of PREFERENCE, and there is no such thing as a "superior" amount of steering effort, whether it's highly assisted or taut.

    "the windows went down and refused to go back up"

    I never had that problem happen to me.

    "the dash lights went out and refused to come back on"

    Never had that happen to me.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You're partially right, people do get by without these items, but the purpose of a Luxury car is to have the latest and the greatest. If I pay 85K for a car, I want the best technology on the market. If I pay 300K for a car surely it should have more "stuff" than a 85K car. To answer your question "who thinks about them". Well Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Lexus buyers. The latest tech features bring the checkbooks into the showroom by the droves.

  • justiceisdeadjusticeisdead Member Posts: 10
    Naturally, if you're going to pay close to $100,000 for a car, you'd expect it to have little innovations that other cars don't.

    You have to realize something, Merc. You're talking to someone whose first car was his dad's 1990 Lincoln Town Car. I thought that a trip computer which told me the gas mileage and estimated distance to empty, high beams that automatically dimmed whenever a car passed in the opposite lane, automatic headlamps, an electrochromatic rearview mirror, dual air bags, a rear air suspension that kept the tail from dragging and the car from pitching and rolling all over the place, and ABS were all the technology one could ask for.

    The latest tech features aren't what bring me and my checkbook into a showroom. I buy cars for their ride, not their technology or handling "qualities" (though I certainly appreciate a little technological extra here and there).

    Okay, seriously... This will be my last post. I already get the feeling I angered some of the participants (not to mention the moderator) with these discussions.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You said that you felt you angered the host and others here. Well, you didn't anger me. I have actually enjoyed debating this with you. If anyone really gets angry over this (very clean, compared to others) discussion they need to get a life. In closing I will say that all the cars we talked about here are great cars, in the end it just comes down to what one likes and the size of said checkbook.

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    One last note, once you've driven a car with HID headlamps and felt a car assist you through a tricky turn, you'll always want these items.

  • quattro_pearlquattro_pearl Member Posts: 51
    Where does Bugatti fit in comparison with the Crewe wheels?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If VW restores Bugatti to its former glory it will be the undisputed prestige king of modern times. With VW behind Bugatti, the brand will have the engineering to go along with the eye-popping prices they'll command. If the economy holds up, and VW's plans are realized, Bentley (after it separates from Rolls) and Bugatti will crush Rolls-Royce. The reason I say this is that I don't see what BMW can do with Rolls-Royce. Rollers are not sporty in the least, and BMW won't be able to master both, I don't think. Handling Rover was enough. If these W16 and W18 engined Bugattis are made you can forget Rolls as the status leader. Can anbody say Royale?

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If VW restores Bugatti to its former glory it will be the undisputed prestige king of modern times. With VW behind Bugatti, the brand will have the engineering to go along with the eye-popping prices they'll command. If the economy holds up, and VW's plans are realized, Bentley (after it separates from Rolls) and Bugatti will crush Rolls-Royce. The reason I say this is that I don't see what BMW can do with Rolls-Royce. Rollers are not sporty in the least, and BMW won't be able to master both, I don't think. Handling Rover was enough. If these W16 and W18 engined Bugattis are made you can forget Rolls as the status leader. Can anybody say Royale?

  • newwestdnewwestd Member Posts: 157
    It seems that BMW may have bitten off more than it could chew by acquiring all these car companies. BMW has finally realized that it doesn't now how to produce Rovers, since they are not the same type of cars as BMWs. They are now selling Rover off, but still keeping the rights to the Mini. It is getting to be quite a strange mixture over at BMW house!
  • alex65alex65 Member Posts: 2
    We are thinking about buying 2000 Jaguar XJ8L. I hear different things: beautiful, sexy, but a lot of problems and so on. I don't know what to do.
    I LOVE the way it looks, I test drove it - GREAT!!
    But, how reliable is it?
    Please guys, share your opinion! I'll greatly appriciate it!
  • jcooper3jcooper3 Member Posts: 4
    I purchased a 2000 Jaguar XJ8 VDP, which as you know is an XJ8L with a fancy interior, in mid December '99. I have not had even one problem with the car. All electronics work perfectly, no handling problems, two long trips with speeds up to 100 mph (just ot test it out). Lots of around town driving, Absolutely perfect.

    I chose the Jag over the MB 430 and BMW 740 and am glad I did. It is a wonderful, comfortable car to own and drive. Very understated elegance with great performance.

    Previous car was a BMW 7 series which had a lot of early life failures. This Jag is perfect. Not one problem.
  • jodys2jodys2 Member Posts: 9
    I've have had my 2000 XJ8L since 11-20-99, and love it! The style and ride are fabulous. The power and control of this cat is pretty amazing.

    The only mechanical problems I have had are minor: the button light for the passenger front heated seat did not light up when on (but the seat did heat) and the car pulled to the right a bit. The dealership service department said the XJ8's tend to need to be watched for front end alignments. Both issues have been addressed.

    I sure am happy with my purchase. The vehicle gets a lot of well deserved attention.

    My only real complaint, is I wish it would automatically wash, wax and dry itself. Actually, it is even fun to take it to the car wash :)
  • kappamankappaman Member Posts: 47
    I own a 96 Vanden Plas and a 97 XK8,and I love them both. No major problems, ride is heavenly in the Vanden Plas and exciting in the XK8. Previously I've own a 740il(electrical nightmare)an S-class(a/c nightmare and they tell you that you will have to replace it in due time)an ES300(a/c shrunk and they would not fix it, so I sold it to a Lexus dealer in another city)but the Lexus SC300 is a great car. I love it and believe it the best car they make. Customer service sucked though.
    Let face it no luxury car is perfect Jag are much better that they use to be. I think so and J.D. Powers does too but they still have some lay out problems. By an large though the Jag is something special. Liked the rest. LOVE the JAGUARS.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I hadn't even noticed before. Edmunds just did a test of the very cars listed in this top. The 750il won, which I can somewhat agree with because it is the "Kingfish" BMW. The S500 came is second. I wonder if Edmunds will do this again when the new S600 arrives. Any comments?

  • scongroscongro Member Posts: 80

    I'd like to see that too,also with the LS 430. By the way, I looked on MB's Germany web site, and they have the new S600 for sale over there, but is was not a 6.0 V12, but a 5.8 V12. Do you know if they will import it as 6 or a 5.8?
  • aling1aling1 Member Posts: 225
    There will be no 6.0L V12 for the new S600. It's only a 5.8L V12. MB seems to have moved away from their tradition of naming the model numbers after the engine displacement. Case in point, the '01 C240 that has a 2.6L V6 engine. Strangely, there is an E240 being sold in Europe and Asia that has a true 2.4L V6 engine.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That is strange isn't it? I have seen the E240 (2.4l V6) vs the Opel Omega on Auto, Motor, und Sport TV, but the C240 coming here has a 2.6L version of the same engine, but it's still badged the C240, go figure. Alas the cost cutters at MB have dictated that they can't build another robust V12 like before, so we're stuck with a 5.8, but a "S580" badge just wouldn't do so they "round" up.

  • kappamankappaman Member Posts: 47
    I believe the contest was a little biased. The 750il is by all intensive purposes a great car, but we need to look at each vendors top car. Also consider v12 vs. v8 in the mix, as well as price. It should be BMW 750il,Mercedes S600,Audi S8,Jaguar Vanden Plas Supercharged,and Lexus LS430. My guess, technically the S600 or the 750il will win. Passionately the Jaguar, my choice for my needs. Although the Mercedes CL500 wouldn't be bad for a sedan choice. Out of the S600 and 750il for prestige the Benz,for passion and user friendliness the 750il. Personally, I'm waiting to see what Jaguar does with its new version of the XJ and BMW with its 7-series. Seen the S, no thank you. CL yes, S no. Audi, no thank you, Lexus, no thank you. For my own reasons the Jag, Benz and BMW. Lets look at warranties offered, customer satisfaction reports(J.D. Powers, Intellichoice, etc...)and other factors like presence, and styling.
    Also, Edmunds I love ya, but stop bashing the Jags so much. I've own the 740il, S-class,and a couple of Lexus. They all have strengths and weaknesses. Owning them is different than reading and forming opinions. Let ask owner. Any other owners of the various brands out there.
  • enigmaoneenigmaone Member Posts: 128
    Just because its a "5.8" litre instead of a "6.0" litre this time means they can't build another robust V12 like before??
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I meant the "meaty" part of the engine, the block itself. Brabus and even AMG concede that the new motors are not as strong as before. There won't be any 7.3L of this V12 like the current one in AMG SL73 in Europe. These new engines are just not built as "thickly" as before.

  • kappamankappaman Member Posts: 47
    You probably will not see those huge litre engines anymore. The emphasis is on lighter engines made out of lighter materials. All this is in an effort to make this cars faster and more productive, although I can't see much more worth want. Mercedes is experimenting with aluminum and magnesium. Ques for Audi I guess. They are kings of the aluminum car. Technology boost and over engineering at its finest.
  • scongroscongro Member Posts: 80
    I agree with you the S580 just sounds horrible, plus the public knows the name, S600. When an older S600 drives through my town(not too often, once a week or so), it turns a lot of heads. I don't think that anyone will think of it as a lesser car because it has a 5.8. Besides, other than Acura, Lexus is the only company that has kept with the displacement badging, even when an engine changes(ES 250-300 & LX 450-470). However it will be interesting to see what Lexus does if they ever make a smaller engine for any of ther cars. I don't see that happening anytime soon, since Lexus doesn't have any enormous engines, like the V12.
  • jasonmbenth2jasonmbenth2 Member Posts: 3
    I have taken a liking to Mercedes recently, I decided that I would make a Mercedes site with discussion forums so that I could learn as much as possible about Mercedes. (I still Love Edmunds, I just created a more specific site, I hope) I remember that some people were asking for a Mercedes discussion site on the board so I thought I would post my site here.

    My Mercedes-Benz Enthusiasts Site

    If anyone is interested please check out my site. Thank You for your patience.

    I hope you enjoy this.
  • enigmaoneenigmaone Member Posts: 128
    Do you have to post the same exact message in every Mercedes related topic????
  • remarsremars Member Posts: 1
    I have a 1999 S500, and the factory analog cell phone rates are killing me.

    Is there an option to convert to digital say Nokia) and still have the voice activated features, etc?

  • aimanaiman Member Posts: 61
    the 2001 LS430 phone can do both digital and analog.
  • kappamankappaman Member Posts: 47
    I am a very dissatisfied pre Lexus owner. I've owned the ES300 and the SC300. The SC300 was a good car minus the front light condensation. My ES300 had an a/c problem(it stunk) which Lexus(Tampa/Clearwater) would not fix. Regional guy got involved, they still wouldn't fix it. I sold the car to Jimmy Bryan Lexus in Orlando, because they gave me a better price than Tampa would. I lost $3000. Customer services at Lexus for me totally sucked. I even had problems getting them to honor the price when I bought the car. No more Lexus for me.

    By the way, I've owned an S-class,740il and presently own the Jaguar Vanden Plas and XK8. I am very satisfied with my customer service at Jaguar and was also with Mercedes. BMW sucked to. Hopefully you treat customers better in Ft. Myers,but for me no more Lexus.
  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    I find it interesting that the Lexus-europe site
    has so much more info on the LS 430 than the US
    Lexus site. Better pictures, more info on the Nav
    system (split screen ability, etc) and other info
    on systems and options (air filtration, smart key
    and how it works, etc.) If any of you are
    interested and/or unaware, here is a link to it:
  • genes555genes555 Member Posts: 10
    I read in a magazine that said that MB had copied Lexus' flourescent display for the instrument panel. Now that I see it in person, I can see the uncanny resemblance. Shame on you MB.

    Also, anyone notice the Jag has copied the BMW in the front end and MB in the rear taillight design?
    Shame on you JAG.
    Well kudos for JAg for using a MB transmission that's supposed to be marginally better than theirs.
    and BMW using GM transmission in their current BMW 3 series and 5 series cars.

    regarding the resemblance in design between the MB s-class and the LEXUS ls430, i think it is a trend of the industry to have a piece headlights.
    the toyota supra had that since '93.

    regarding the imitation of the cars, i think major german and japanese auto manufacturers copy each other. and then the other european or asian manufacturers copy each other.

    I don't think it's a western vs. eastern culture thing because eastern culture because both cultures have taught each other a thing or two.
  • aimanaiman Member Posts: 61
    In my humble opinion, major corporations keep close eyes on their competitors moves so that they can outdo or not get outdone by their competitors. A simple example is the GM Onstar which was introduced a few years ago. Similar devices are now available on MB and Lexus (Lexus Mayday). Soon other manufacturers will compete providing this feature to their products. Eventually, they will compete by providing it to many econo cars. While some fans of certain manufacturers dislike this type of competitiveness since they cannot claim somekind of exclusivity of the brand they adore, most other consumers will only benefit from this and get better value out of their cars.

    Happy motoring
  • kappamankappaman Member Posts: 47
    Ya, the Japanese make the most reliable car, but they do copy style. Copying style has nothing to do with features. Copying features is ok. Japanese dealers have admitted to me that they copy. I don't know if they are that honest with anyone else. You are correct about the less expensive cars benefiting from techno overflow of competition.

    By the way did you see the new protype for the Q45. The pulled a Lexus. It look just like the new S-class Benz.
  • rollierollie Member Posts: 337
    Regarding post #198:

    kappaman, despite how the car may look in pictures, I can assure you it really doesn't share much style-wise with the new S-class Benz. I saw the 2002 Q45 at the New York auto show and while I haven't decided if I like it or not I can definitely say it doesn't copy the Benz (see the new Lexus LS430 for that). With 340 hp the new Q45 is returning to the roots of the first generation Q45 and away from the Buick-like path of the current Q45 (in my opinion - I'm sure there are those who love the current Q).


    [email protected]
  • kappamankappaman Member Posts: 47
    Actually, I like the current Q, but it not up to par with the rest of the lot. I've only seen the picture of both S-class copies. I will have to take your word on the Q, but Lexus has been copying for years. They are all nice car though, and anyone who can afford either one of these cars in fortunate.

    The 340hp will increase sale for Infiniti in believe
  • bbng01bbng01 Member Posts: 6
    I have a question for you all. I am in the market
    to buy a luxurious reliable sedan. I have narrowed my two options down to either the Q45 or the Jag XJ8. Does anyone have had experiences with either of these cars? I have heard many things about both cars. The Q45 is considered to be a more reliable car then the Jag, though the style of the Jag seems slicker. I have also hear that the Jag requires more maintance then does the Q. So, I would to like know whether it is worth it to put out the extra bucks for the Jag? I have also considered the lexus ls 400 and the BMW 540, but my personal preferences have narrowed it down to the 2 sedan mentioned above. Any input is greatly
    appreciated thanks.
  • kappamankappaman Member Posts: 47
    I've never owned a Q45, but I've owned the S-class,740il,ES300,SC300, and presently own the Jag XK8 and Vanden Plas. Buy the Jag(98 up). I just test drive a 98 yesterday, I have a 96 Vanden Plas, the 98 is light years better, and the 96 hasn't given me many problem, but you can tell the difference in the cars. The others brands are not really anymore reliable, trust me. They all have their problems that are particular to them. Besides, Jaguar has the best warranty in the business. If you buy pre-owned you can get 6years,100k miles from original sales dates. So, you can actually get a better warranty on a used one(year of two old) than you can on a new one. Truthfully, either choice will be good. They all are GOOD cars...notice I didn't say great. Go with what you really want,no matter what it is. You are the one paying for it. An if you are in warranty, there is really no problem with either choice. The Lexus is probably a Little more reliable than the Jag and BMW and probably on par with the Q. Happy Hunting :)
  • jodys2jodys2 Member Posts: 9

    I am a very satisfied owner of a 2000 Jag XJ8L. The car's style, ride and class are head turners. I have about 3500 miles on it now and have loved owning it.
  • ed95ed95 Member Posts: 1
    I am looking at a 96 XJ12 Vanden Plas, Do you have any experience with the V12? Every time I mention it to people they all tell me to be careful of expensive repairs and reliability problems. Any advice?
  • kappamankappaman Member Posts: 47
    I would advise against any V12. Basically you have two engines under the hood. A lot of heat, and that not good. V8 is all you really need. I own a 96' Vanden Plas V6 and have driven the 98 XJ8. Buy the 98' XJ8, it is a much better car. Thank me later.
  • q45manq45man Member Posts: 416
    We are a indepedent Lexus-Infiniti repair facility with 2 location in Atlanta our business is divided 50-50 between the brands (120 per week of each brand). the 90-93 Q45 provides twice the revenue of the same year LS400 models. The 94-96 models are about equal maybe 15% more for the Q per vehicle. The higher repair/failure cost are reflected in the lower resale value of the 90-93Q.
    But these we not really the same cars as to power, handling and overall performance so you have to expect a higher stress rate on the Q. The 94 Q was detuned, soften, and bugs corrected still it out performed most until 96.
    Just some info for those who might be looking at an older model.
  • scongroscongro Member Posts: 80
    On edmunds.com, they have a long-term XJ6 Vanden Plas that they just wrapped up. You will surely love the maintenence #'s.
  • kappamankappaman Member Posts: 47
    The long term review as to biased for my taste. I own a 96 Vanden Plas. Though I have a few problems with the car it has been just as reliable as the other luxury cars I've owned.

    First they took a used Vanden Plas. Wrecked the car. Then complained about it. I don't think the review was a good one. How many other used cars that they wrecked are being reviewed.

    There was a good review on the XK8/R though, which I also own. It was pretty accurate from what I have experienced. They cited the good and bad features of the car. Look at JD Powers list.

    For anyone who is debating getting a Jaguar XJ, the 98 and up is really where you what to start. I've driven the 98s and they are better cars that the 95-97. New engine,interior styling, electronics, etc..
  • glensterglenster Member Posts: 6
    I have enjoyed all of the previous postings here on Edmunds and I must say that many of them are quite humorous. Looks like most of you either love the product or hate it. And the same goes for the people who sell the cars. Well I am here to introduce myself to the boards. I just came over to Mercedes Benz after spending the last 5 years at Lexus of Beverly Hills as their Fleet Manager. I am now the E-Commerce for Beverly Hills Mercedes Benz. I am not allowed to solicit my business here, but I am able to at least offer my opinion and help in "aquiring" a new Mercedes Benz...(hint, hint, hint) So if you are looking to get a new Mercedes and not looking for the high prices or "snotty" attitude that is all to prevelant with my counter parts, I am here to help. The best way to reach me is direct via E-Mail at "[email protected] For those of you who have purchased Lexus in the past, I am well known in the Lexus "chat rooms" as offering exceptional service and value. I offer special discounts only to Edmunds Memebers. At this time I cannot do any better than MSRP on CLK's and S classes...but at least I can get them!
  • mtl3mtl3 Member Posts: 22
    There's a little excerpt from the user agreement that you are or should be familiar with.

    >>I agree that I will not solicit or promote any products or services within the Town Hall site, and I will not use information supplied within the Town Hall to solicit or promote any products or services via email or any other method.<<

    And should you wonder why car salesmen ethics are often called into question, look in the mirror.
    (hint, hint)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That's real funny, you posted in every topic he did, but he isn't trying to "solicit". It seems a salesman is a salesman, no matter what they sell. Oh well.

  • budfox057budfox057 Member Posts: 2
    i heard that the 2002 7-series bmw will be completely changed. can anyone verify this?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I would say so. BMW has a way of doing a last minute face-lift to an existing model usually during the model's last year. The 2001 7-Series is on sale now, so going by past experience the 2002 should be an all-new car.

  • rob114rob114 Member Posts: 1
    Bud, I suggest that you and your wife drive the cars you're considering. All the analytical model comparisons in the world can't compare to a good ol' fashion test drive.

    btw, is your real name budfox or are you as big a fan of the movie wall street as I am? :>

    - Rob
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Rob114 is correct. These are all great cars. You owe it to yourself to find a dealer (of each brand) that will let you maybe keep a car for a weekend. It can make all the difference in the world.

    Now on those choices. If you're satisfied with BMWs then get the 740i Sport, the 2001 models are on sale now, plus you can now get the Sport package on the 740iL if you need the room in back. Your dealer is correct, the 2002 will be all-new. BMW is notorious for giving their cars a face-lift for the last model year and they stick behind their cars until the very end. Hence the 2001 7-Series' facelift. Another plus to BMW doing this is that when the 2002 is shown (about next year this time) you might be able to tell from the pictures of the new car whether or not you like it, and the 2001's will still be around for you to get one if you like.

    The A8 is one of my favorite cars, but like the 740i it has aged, although it's not as old as the 7-Series. Quattro and all Aluminum construction make it the "different" one here. I personally am excited about the S8, but your wife may not want this "sports" model. The long-wheelbase A8L is probably the one to go with here.

    I don't like Lexus' cars so I'll just say that the LS430 promises to be a great car if oh-so derivative of a Mercedes. Loaded with features too, like the S-Class.

    Lastly, ahh the S430. Very good, but not enough power for me. Probably enough for you and your wife, but I would (if possible) make the stretch to the S500 if I were buying an S. The S-Class is to me the best looking of the bunch with all the features you'll ever need in a car.

    Take a lot test drives, your favorite will emerge I'll bet on it. Good luck.

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