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High End Luxury Cars



  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Looks like growth rate is inversely proportional to price. Is the less expensive brand of cars here more inclined to grow?

    High prices didn't keep MB from substantially outgrowing Lexus and BMW "in cars" in the 1995-2000 period.

    Also, in other markets, it seems to me that retailers that are carry higher-priced goods often outgrow more mainstream retailers. Example: Whole Foods.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    Maybe you should give equal time to trashing Audi for its VW connection?
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    The 101K Discount on the Maybach was advertised loud and clear (bold print) in the NY Times by Ray Catena a few weeks ago. I noted it with a post at the time of the ad.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Was this a executive driven re-sale model?
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    As I have said here many times, I have never driven the Audi A8.
    I do not talk about cars I have never actually driven.
    I hope to in the future, and if I find the Audi is an over-rated rip-off, I will deem it the VW A8.

    Also keep in mind, if you are happy with the LS, nothing anyone here says to the contrary should really matter.

    Like I have also written here before, I hope the new LS improves upon its driveability factors. The luxury aspect, we all know will be a home-run.
    I will definitely be checking it out when it hits the showrooms.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    advertised as brand new.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    I started posting total vehicle numbers, and still maintain that that is the most rational way to look at things. Yet when the German side responds by talking about car-only numbers, I'm not allowed to talk the same way without being called hypocritical?

    If you read what preceeded the "hypocritical" statement, then you would understand what was hypocritical.

    I'll say it again:

    "The reason why some Germancarfan asked for just the 5-year car numbers was because some Lexicon said that the reason BMW has increased its sales over the last 5 years was just because they started selling SUVs."

    And my point: "You can't say you must include SUVs when you're talking about total units sold, then turn around and discredit BMW's growth because they introduced SUVs."
  • Frankly, I consider it a good thing to call the Lexus a Toyota. What's the fuss about? Now if you tried to call it a BMW or Mercedes, then I would be outraged.

    What I wonder about is what the Germans must think about all the pseudo intellectuals in this country fawning over (and paying premium prices for)what they use as common domestic taxi cabs!! Now that's funny!!
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    that the $65,000 545 model that I drive is being used as a taxi cab.
    The $118,900 760Li too?

    I wonder what qualifications make one a "pseudo-intellectual?"
    I guess, someone who writes English well and disagrees with you.
    In that case, count me in! I wear the mantle proudly.

    Wow! I have to start getting over to Germany more!
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    advertised as brand new.

    That's like Tiffany's having a three for one sale. That does sound desperate.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594

    MB: 95-2000=99%, 2000-2005=20%
    BMW: 95-2000=46%, 2000-2005=45%
    Lexus: 95-2000=28%, 2000-2005=49%

    MB sales/growth goes from 99% --> 20%
    BMW sales/growth goes from 46% --> 45%
    Lexus sales/growth goes from 28% --> 49%

    OK, we got the stats.... Now comes the spin

    German cars are doing fantastic... Take out the cars, and they are far out-growing Lexus... Jurgen was MB's problem, and now that he is out, its full steam ahead for MB sales.... higher prices led to decreased sales for the German brands.... Lower priced Lexus led to increased Lexus sales... and on and on ....

    MB sales are primarily from C-class ($30 - 45K)
    BMW sales are primarily from 3-series ($30 - $45K)
    Lexus sales are primarily from RX/ES ($30 - $45K)

    MB has 5 C-class; 4 E-class; 5 S-class; 3 CLK, 2 SL; 3 CL; 2 M; 2 R; 1 G; GL (?): 2005 sales = 224K
    BMW has 5 3-series; 4 5-series; 3 7-series; 2 X5; 1 X3; Z3/Z4; 1 6-series, 1 M3; 1 M5: 2005 sales = 266K
    Lexus has 2 IS; 2GS; 2 RX; 1 ES, 1 SC, 1 GX, 1 LX, 1 LS: 2005 sales = 302K


    Which car company is truly doing the best darn job of all 3 ? Seems kinda obvious, isn't it ?
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Frankly, I consider it a good thing to call the Lexus a Toyota. What's the fuss about? Now if you tried to call it a BMW or Mercedes, then I would be outraged.

    Now there's a man who knows what he wants, knows what it is and appreciates the benefits of what it is. Good answer.

    As far as my car being a taxicab, it's the best darn cab I've ever been in!

    Hey, I hear some German cop cars are Porsches. Are we supposed to feel bad about that too?

  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I am willing to acknowledge that Lexus is doing the best on the spreadsheets and so is Toyota. Thus, I extend congratulations to those who have financial and emotional equity in them.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I hope the new LS improves upon its driveability factors...

    The LS430 would never be mistaken for a 3- or 5-series sedan, cars you are most familiar with. What the LS430 is is a world-class luxury sedan far and above a 3/5-series, and as the links to the comparos show, better than many of its German counterparts, including the 7-series. Last I checked, the 7-series is an all-around better car than either a 3-/5-seris. If the only area that you find the LS430 weak IYO is driveability, turns out many more people don't consider this a weakness. Or put another way, many more people prefer the LS driveability to the 7-series driveability. That should tell you something, doesn't it ?
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    OAC - Note that the big slowdown in MB sales growth came during a period where prices were reduced - starting with the $10K reduction on the resdesigned S-class in 2000. Now the S is being reduced another $1.5K. What's crystal clear is that MB prices need to fall a lot more. Too bad there wasn't a way to "Short" MB sticker prices.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    OAC - I have to wonder if anyone who says the LS is a Toyota in disguise even knows how the LS was developed from scratch in the 1980's. Based on those inane comments I doubt they have a clue.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    wasn't it called a Lexus in Japan?
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I have to wonder if anyone who says the LS is a Toyota in disguise even knows how the LS was developed from scratch in the 1980's. Based on those inane comments I doubt they have a clue.

    Sounds like a good subject. Maybe I don’t have a clue and perhaps you would be kind enough fill me in. I’d be more than interested to hear. Anything to get away from the repetitious contentiousness in this place. I thought the discussion about long-term sales figures was interesting until it descended into the muck as usual.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594

    To learn about the LS story, take a short trip to your nearest Lexus dealership, venture into the Service lounge area and you'll find a copy of the book sitting around. If you cannot find one, simply ask for it, I am sure someone would provide it to you. Spend 10, 15, 30-min leafing through and you'll be amazed at the Lexus LS story. That car was built so meticulously, and to the highest standard possible. That gave it a huge leg up in its debut. The Germans could not find anything wrong with the car, except to ignore it and assume it would not hurt them any.

    I figure you'd better read for yourself than have me regurgitate the story on the HELM board.... Could be so boring, you know...
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "Toyota has instituted one of the greatest snake oil schemes in business history and shows that you can fool most of the people most of the time."

    This comment is rediculous. You're complaining that the Lexus owners are getting annoyed, and then you turn right around and insult our intelligence. Americans are badge and status concious. This is in no way Toyota's fault. Europeans, generally, are not. If they were, the same company that sells commercial trucks, airport shuttles, etc, would not be able to get away with selling the S600 under the same badge. Can you imagine if Mercedes tried to sell a competitior to the Ford E350 shuttle van here? The American Benz owners would go ape. It would absolutely destroy any prestige that having the 3-pointed star on the hood brings. In Europe, nobody cares.

    Also, you're forgetting to call Lincoln, Cadillac, Chrysler, Saab, Buick, Acura, Infiniti, and Audi, who do the EXACT same thing as Toyota does with Lexus "snake-oil salesmen".
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Thanks Oac. That’s exactly the kind of response I was hoping for. I will look for the book the next time I get a chance.

    Could be so boring, you know...

    It wouldn’t hurt to give a synopsis of sorts. If someone doesn’t want to read it they can just move on. In my opinion nothing is so boring as repetition around here.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    You are correct there! Plenty of snake oil to go around.
    I did not mean to insult anyone's intelligence.
    The car is a quality vehicle, whether I like it or not.
    I just wonder why Toyota called the LS a Toyota in Japan but felt it was necessary to establish the prestigious Lexus department over here.
    Nothing to do with the vehicle. Everything to do with the marketing.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    It wouldn’t hurt to give a synopsis of sorts. If someone doesn’t want to read it they can just move on. In my opinion nothing is so boring as repetition around here.

    Funny.... But for you Designman, I'd consider it a honor to give you some synopsis... Watch out for it...
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    I wonder if there is a chapter in the "Lexus Story" explaining why a Japanese Toyota had to be renamed "Lexus" over here.
    Somehow, I don't think that chapter made it to print.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    OAC - And to add to the story about the LS - much of the perfection and expertise built into the development of that car then found it's way into the Toyotas (so in reality some of the German car fans have this whole story completely backwards). What is interesting is Toyota quality and build standards, which were fairly high to begin with, went through the ceiling after the LS debuted and spurred on the rapid growth of the company that continues today. That's why I say these posts are so inane and make the posters look so bad to anyone who knows better. The lack of knowledge is akin to a NY sports fan saying baseball in NYC started with the Mets.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    is about to self-destruct with the insults that are being flung around here.

    Can we try to talk about the marques as the title says we are here to do? If we can't stop attacking and/or insulting each other, there's not much point in continuing.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    That's why I say these posts are so inane and make the posters look so bad to anyone who knows better.

    What did I miss here? What is it about this book that proves all Germancarfans wrong?

    Because the LS is a Lexus despite being a Toyota?
    Because a Lexus book in a Lexus dealership will give us the ultimate unblemished truth about the Lexus LS? :confuse: :confuse:
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    When I first started seeing people on these boards refering to "enthusiasts" I wasn't that clear on what was meant and so started to think about what it MIGHT mean. I thought it MIGHT mean someone that cared about the car itself, with an emphasis on performance aspects. I thought it might mean, in other words, "THE CAR", and NOT the badge it wore or the history of the company that made it or anything unrelated to performance, and, perhaps, styling and the overall ownership experience. Isn't it the car, and what it can do for you now, that matters?
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Isnt the answer pretty obvious? A large part of owning a Lexus isnt the car, its the ownership "experience". Lexus dealerships are seperate from Toyota dealerships. They are (comparatively) very low volume, and very personal. Toyota dealerships are zoos. Who wants to spend $50 or 60K in that kind of envinronment?

    Dont you think if all of Toyota's products were sold at the same place, the people buying Camrys or Highlanders would be very upset at the level of service people buying "Toyota LS430s" were getting that they themselves were not? Do you really think a Toyota dealership is going to come to your house to pick up a Corolla for service?
  • docnukemdocnukem Posts: 485
    Part of the reason Toyota didn't start with Lexus (as separate from Toyota) in Japan was pressure from the Toyota dealers there. It was in one of the links posted earlier in the day. If I find it, I'll repost it.
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