High End Luxury Cars

pat

High end seems to mean different thing to different folks (and is obviously ignored too frequently), but let me refer everyone to the excellent description of criteria syswei provided us in a recent, um, debacle , but the good thing that came out of it was a clear definition of our topic.

Please review the header here. Let's keep those criteria in mind going forward, please.

dewey

The R8 is the "Audi of exotics", it's just too sensible

What is missing today is an insensible car that can compete with the exotics at a very sensible price. The late 1980s Acura NSX was a highly exotic car selling at a very compelling price. It will be interesting to see how the new upcoming Acura NSX and Lexus LF-A will be priced?

dewey

Currently eighty percent of MB S Classes sold in Canada are AWD. My personal preference is RWD and I hope in the future MB will not discontinue selling RWD Benzes in Canada. If AWD hits 90 or 95 percent of sales here that may very well be the case.

I dont know the stats for BMW but almost every single new BMW I see that is available with AWD is a x-drive BMW. Interestingly that is the same case with Lexus and Infiniti. I hardly ever see new RWD Lexus IS or GS models and Infiniti RWD G and M models.

Maybe RWD will become as rare as manual trannies, well at least here in Canada. That would be tragic. At least IMHO.

merc1

I never really understood why it was changed in the first place. It should have just stayed high-end luxury marques which includes Porsche and 911s and MB SLs and Jaguar XKs.

What we've always talked about here is the high-end marques news, happenings and other models sold by them that weren't "sedans". The Ultra Luxury Thread has no traffic so not just discuss Bentley, Rolls, Maybach etc here from time to time. It isn't like those buyers come here or that we'll even talk about those brands that much. Are there any owners of those here?

M

pat

I don't know what dewey posted and then deleted, but the reason things were changed is because a lot of things needed to be changed throughout the Forums to be more search-engine friendly, and it is just not worth fighting about anymore. We can certainly include the vehicles you mention. I said nothing about restricting the conversation to sedans, so I assume you must be responding to whatever dewey said.

To all: The reason I made my post is because again we are reverting to more and more posts about cars that are nowhere near high end anything and that is not why we are here. Debates about manufacturers in general belong in the appropriate discussions in Automotive News, not here. Discussions about the non high end vehicles produced by our favorite-topic manufacturers exist for your conversation pleasure as well. If anyone needs any help finding an appropriate discussion, just give me a holler.

Further comments/arguments about the topic may be addressed to me via email as always, but they will be removed here, as will other off-topic posts. I told you when we reopened this discussion and closed the ill-fated new one that management's condition was that we stay on topic.

Thanks to everyone for your help with this.

dewey

Merc1 and Pat,

sorry I didn't realize anyone noticed my deleted message.Pat thanks for clarifying that we can discuss cars like the MB SL , Porsche or even a Maybach. But my confusion and maybe Merc1's confusion is based on the defintion above which does not include such vehicles.

1) Let's try to define this forum as being limited to vehicles where the mainstream version in a typical configuration has an MSRP of at least $60k but less than $150k,

The above definition excludes a Rolls, Maybach or a Ferarri

2) and where the vehicle is the largest sedan within a given company's sedan lineup (or largest SUV within a given company's SUV lineup, or largest coupe within a company's coupe lineup, etc).

The above definition excludes most Porsches and all roadsters.
Also luxury cannot be weighed by its tonnage and I find the word "largest" somewhat inapporopriate.

lexusguy

It will be interesting to see how the new upcoming Acura NSX and Lexus LF-A will be priced?

I'm going to guess at least $110K, right in R8 territory. As for bargain exotic killers, there's the Z06, and the EVO. Unfortunately both (especially the EVO) are fairly sensible.

pat

If it's high end, it belongs. If it isn't, it doesn't. Maybe that's what the header needs to say. :P

dewey

Thanks,

that would make a great footnote below the header with a lot of asterisks, daggers with bolded oversized text

tagman

The above definition excludes a Rolls, Maybach or a Ferarri

I've never seen Pat intervene when a VERY high-end vehicle was discussed. I'm sure the issue is more like when someone posts about a Prius or Camry or something like that.

TagMan

blckislandguy

Dewey, I wonder how big the Canadian market really is anyway. In my admittedly superificial experience in Quebec, I never see any new S Class, 7 Series, or other high end sedans, AWD or not. The only new high end cars I see have US plates on them. Jeez, the Bentley dealer in Montreal doesn't even stock any Bentleys. Me thinks that the government taxes these things too heavily.

pat

I removed the upper price limit. Should I change "largest" to "most exclusive" or something like that?

tagman

"most exclusive" works fine. There is also "flagship", "manufacturer's top-of-the-line", or simply "most expensive". If I think of others after my coffee I'll post.

Thanks for trying to be clearer with this.

What happens in a situation where ALL models (not just top)should qualify... like Bentley, for example?

Is it possible that we need to simplify... for example, what if a price minimum was the major and ONLY real requirement? Wouldn't that essentially leave all qualifiying vehicles? Or perhaps clarify the requirement that the vehicle is a luxury vehicle.

So... essentially ALL LUXURY vehicles above a specified price?!

TagMan

dewey

Thanks Pat.

"Most exclusive" certainly does sound better than "largest". In fact Tagman's definition of "all luxury vehicles above a price point sounds pretty good. But I would revise it a bit further to include "all luxury and performance vehicles above a certain price point."

dewey

In my admittedly superificial experience in Quebec, I never see any new S Class, 7 Series, or other high end sedans, AWD or not.

Your Quebec observations are correct. But Quebec is not representative of all Canada as many States are not representative of all USA. In cities like Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver and Edmonton you will see quite a large number of HELCs despite our higher taxes and auto prices. Although overall it is true that Canadians are more understated in their automotive tastes than Americans.

merc1

I'd say that the following brands/vehicles qualify (IMO) for this thread:

Acura - Doesn't currently qualify.

Audi - RS4, S6, S8, A8 and R8.

BMW - 5 and 6-Series Motorsport vehicles, V8 X5, 6-Series and 7-Series.

Lexus - SC430, LS460/L.

Mercedes - S/CL/SL/E/CLS AMG models, S, CL, SL, CLS, and SLR.

Infiniti - Q45.

Jaguar - R models, XJ and XK.

Aston-Martin, Bentley, Ferrari, Rolls-Royce, Maybach, Maserati, Lamborghini are all in by default! I for one would love to hear about anyone that is buying or drives one of these on a daily or semi-daily basis. This group comprises the most elusive of Edmunds members. The Maserati Quattroporte thread and the some of the sportscar threads provide a rare glimpse into the world of these upper tier brands. How do we get them to drop in here sometime?

M

pat

But all of you knew that, I know. A bunch of posts have been removed. Here's one of the many places in the Forums where you can pursue your, ah, debate: General Questions about Leasing.

pat

I've made some changes to the header. Let's see how it goes. I don't think we need to get too specific, we just need to remember that high end does not include vehicles that aren't, um, high end. That's really all there is to it.

Merc1, you ask an excellent question. I will put links to this discussion in those and see if that helps. As you know, those discussions are not all that busy, but I agree, it would be great to get folks who are into those vehicles over here.

merc1

My Detroit pics can be seen here.

M

dhamilton

Thanks for the pics. How is it that Aston Martin can show up with only one car, and still, my palms are sweaty.

How close to production is the Acura NXS design? [do ya reckon] This will be a high end whip fa shizzle

Of course all the Audis look fabulous :P

I think the CL,[S] are my fav's of the Merc's, based on design. [which in general isn't a deal breaker for me]

OK, the Houston show starts in 4 days, and none of those cars will be here

merc1

There are some words in this week's issue of Autoweek about Aston-Martin's bare minimum stand. Very strange.

I have no idea about the next Acura NSX. There was no around to ask and I really didn't spend much time at Acura.

M

dewey

Thanks Merc for the great shots.

The new Porsche Cayenne looks just as ugly if not uglier than the current model. The S Cabrio is a beaut but I hate those flashy pimp-like wheels (high end is suppose to mean classy not gaudy).

Next month is the Toronto Auto Show. A small village affair compared to what you saw in Detroit. Despite that I look forward to going.

tagman

The S Cabrio is a beaut but I hate those flashy pimp-like wheels (high end is suppose to mean classy not gaudy).

Those are not the 911 "S" wheels. Those are the Turbo wheels, as shown here:



The standard Carrera S wheels actually look like these:



BTW, in case you missed it months ago, that pic is a perfect representation of what my car looks like.

I also like the "S" wheels much better than the Turbo wheels.

TagMan

tagman

You do go through a lot of unselfish effort, and it is much appreciated. Thank you for all the pics as well as your recent comments and opinions.

TagMan

dewey

Ooops,

my mistake Tagman.

I meant the MB S Class Cabrio. Those flashy wheels are so tacky IMO.

Your Porsche S is definitely a beaut (both the car and its wheels).

merc1

Glad you all liked the pics!!!

M

garyh1

Thanks Merc for all the pics as well as the great show overview. I'm so sorry to hear you didn't like the MB Ocean Drive Concept; in pics, at least, I like it better than the current S, and I was hoping it might be MB's new design direction.

merc1

It might be if the response is positive enough, but it will most certainly be toned down for production. The car looked as though it was initially to be a Maybach. If Mercedes does launch such a car atop of the S-Class, it doesn't bode well for the Maybach brand. Maybach is about to be killed by Bentley and Rolls with their rapid expansion in coupes and convertibles.

M

tagman

Maybach is about to be killed by Bentley and Rolls with their rapid expansion in coupes and convertibles.

Exactly. Perhaps you caught my recent post citing the 9,200 units Bentley sold in 2006, of course largely due to the Continental series.

I'd say the Maybach is already getting killed and the slaughter will only continue to get worse.

The Maybach was never marketed properly out of the gate, IMO. Also IMO, they should have been less expensive.

TagMan

merc1

True, but I meant mores in the really expensive 300K+ range. Maybach nor Rolls will never catch Bentley in sales when Bentley's price of entry is 170K or so compared to opening prices of over 300K for Maybach and Rolls.

That said both Bentley and Rolls are adding more models in the 300K range, hence my comment. The Phantom Drophead Coupe (convertible) and the Coupe version (2008) and Bentley's new Azure and Savannah coupe (late 2007) will all be in the 300-400K range. It is really going to highlight the lack of anything without 4-doors over a 'Bach.

M

lexusguy

I never understood why bringing Maybach back from the dead was necessary. It's one of those old brands like Pierce-Arrow or Deusenberg that means absolutely nothing to pretty much everyone in the 21st century. The M-B brand has enormous cachet. If they built a $300K Benz sedan and absolutely nailed the execution, people would buy. That's basically what the Maybachs are anyway.

merc1

Correct!

The "Maybach" was a Mercedes when it was originally shown at the 1997 Tokyo auto show.



What happened next was a classic case of German see, German does. VW and BMW got Bentley and Rolls so Mercedes figured they'd bring a prestigous name from past back to life. So at the last minute they changed the plan from calling it "The Maybach by Mercedes" to a seperate brand. Problem is not many people outside of Germany knew what a Maybach was. Big mistake for this round of cars, though I think the 57S is the best sedan on earth from a technical/performance/luxury standpoint, it doesn't have the name like a Rolls or Bentley. Now if there is another Maybach it needs to be something totally different from a Mercedes, not an easy thing to do in this case. Rollers and Bentleys are comparitively easy to design due to their continual presence all these years.

What gets me is that Mercedes didn't flintch at putting a 450K pricetag on the SLR, but didn't think the MB name could compete with Rolls and Bentley anymore. All the while putting the MB name on the A/B-Classes. Shremp's plan to put a Benz in every garage was complete insanity.

M

drfill

On all the pics. The LF-A makes a killer screensaver!

Thanks for showin' some luv to the lighty Lexus division!

http://www.autospies.com/news/Audi-Throws-Challenge-to-Lexus-11947/

This fool should lose his job. What a tool! Audi has mastered the Minor Leagues, can't "resonate" here, and epitomizes "BMW wannabe".

Audi isn't good enough to challenge Lexus at anything, so the headline is poorly written.

It should read: "Lexus is beating my bottom like a drum, Waaaagghh! If Lexus is nothing, we are less than nothing, Waaaaaggh!"

Or "We wish we could create an identity"

Or "Someday, someone will care what we do."

Or "Can Lexus lend us a commercial, for like a couple of days, so our salesmen would have to get up and do something......"

Or "If our Q7 was any less successful, it would be an A8! For 2008, we'll be dropping the price another $5k. Someone will buy it!"

Or "I wish the R8 came out looking like the LF-A, but we can't do anything that cool!"

Or "Since the Lexus IS came out, people are like What's an A4? Who makes that? Audi? Who's that?!?"

:surprise:

DrFill

dewey

Audi already outsells Lexus in other parts of the world by a significant margin. Worldwide last year, Audi outsold its Japanese rival 905,100 to 460,000 units. Audi sold 260,000 cars in Germany, while Lexus sold 25,000 vehicles in all of Europe.

"Lexus is really only a U.S. brand and one predominantly focused on SUVs at that. It doesn't resonate anywhere else in the world, even in its home market, where consumer response to the market has been lukewarm," said de Nysschen, as he laid down a challenge that is certain to be debated for months to come."

DrFill,

your opinions are always interesting. But what makes your opinions most interesting is that they are so dead-wrong. The facts dictate that Audi is a screaming success in the global luxury segment while Lexus still has to overcome their second-rate image problem. Lexus has a lot to learn from Audi's remarkable global success.

Beyond North America Lexuses are as relevant as Cadillacs are. :P

drfill

Ah, Dewey.

What's always so interesting when I talk to you is that it is like we've never spoken before. It's always like the first time we've ever met! If you don't know me by now......:confuse:

That's the entire point of the article, and my post, is that Audi is this big success everywhere but in the #1 market in the world, and you get jealous response from the Audi exec.

ALL I care about is the US market, the #1 market. I don't watch Soccer, couldn't care less about the Grey Cup, World Football League, or how important a diesel is to sales in Ireland, the US is the game to play, and win. And Lexus is a huge winner!

Audi is a huge loser!

This P.O's Audi to no end! And no matter what Audi says, they have no right to belittle Lexus' sales or performance.

It's like saying Phil Simms is not much of a Quarterback.

He only had the BEST SUPER BOWL performance of all-time! I guess he only plays well in the biggest game on Earth, otherwise he's a scrub. That makes sense.

Mercedes or BMW might be able talk that smack, DEFINITELY NOT AUDI! :P

When they can make a commercial worth watching, a concept worth ogling, or a car wourth buying, THEN they can talk smack.

Not now. It just reeks of Sour Grapes. Or Grapes of Wrath?

They don't "resonate" here, and never will. And here is what counts, whether he likes it or not.

Wow, that is amazing that he would say anything negative about Lexus. Amazing!

DrFill

dewey

DrFill,

no I really dont know you by now? We are from two different parallel universes. My universe consists of the Stanley and Grey Cups and cars with sporty suspensions equipped and old fashioned manual trannies. Your universe consists of your love for a luxury auto company that is renowned for manufacturing rebadged Toyota SUVs and cars with soft suspensions and slush boxes.

Yes you are correct we will never know each others because there will never be a bridge between our universes.

designman

"ALL I care about is the US market, the #1 market. I don't watch Soccer, couldn't care less about the Grey Cup, World Football League, or how important a diesel is to sales in Ireland, the US is the game to play, and win. And Lexus is a huge winner!"

Whew, what a bag of bluster. You wouldn’t be singing that tune if Lexus had a big footprint in Europe and you know it. And Lexus isn’t the “Football of Cars” in the US. If anything it’s the “Soap Opera of Cars.” I guess it’s back to sales and waving pom-poms. Surely you can find a better way to promote Lexus.

designman

There has been a heavy wave of Mercedes S advertising on TV in the New York area. Has this also been the case around the rest of the country? The message is safety, quality and heritage.

tagman

Doc,
Let me get this. Lexus has a tiny share of the European market, but you call them number one because of their sales in good 'ol U.S.A. Audi has small share of U.S.A. market, but their collosal sales in Europe don't mean anything to you???

The REAL truth is that Audi is a global success and is just now in the early stages of what is a gigantic ascention in this U.S. market. I'll bet you on this. If you don't think so, just wait and watch. Audi is coming on strong, Doc... very strong... like a freight train.

If you don't believe me, just watch the yearly sales data as time goes by.

TagMan

hpowders

stocks at this time, I would be investing in Porsche, BMW and Daimler-Benz shares.
I would be shorting Toyota aggressively.

dewey

The only way you can invest in the success of Audi is by buying VW shares :lemon:

Stock-wise Daimler Chrysler DCX is at a 52 week high as of today. Last year in the HELM forum I pointed out that DXC is a good stock pick due to a MB turnaround and was ridiculed for suggesting such a hopeless stock. The stock would be even higher if it were not for the current misfortunes of Chrysler :sick:

Short-selling Toyota? Not yet. Wait until the day when DrFill says something negative about Toyota/Lexus and that will be the day to short-sell TMC

hpowders

Good point. I wish Audi was a stand-alone company. I hate VW, so I wouldn't buy the stock.

As for shorting Toyota, I look at the Edmunds' problems threads for all their affiliated vehicles and I notice the complaints are mounting. They are clearly losing the bullet-proof reliability reputation.

dhamilton

don't get what the fuss is about Doc.

He gave Lexus a complement, they are the bulls eye here.

It's a global economy, we should all expand our "world view" a bit. Most people can do this [sans the current administration]

A recent article predicted Audi being the worlds #1 premier auto maker by 2015. I agree. [ If that happens, I probably won't like them at that point, because the cars will be so watered down for mass appeal.]

Bottom line Doc
1. You enjoyed driving an SC around a track. [your honor, the defense rests.]
2. The Germans engineer, the Japanese mass produce. And compared to Audi's, Lexus drive like amassed produce.

lexusguy

What I've been seeing lately is a bunch of ads with owners talking about how great their new S-class is. Not impressed. While watching, I couldn't help but think of the movie ads where they drag the audience in front of the camera. That almost always means the movie is either terrible, or has been a total flop, or both. Mercedes can do better.

These aren't as bad as trying to turn the C230 into a "hip" car that you'll see drag racing at a stoplight, but close.

merc1

Ah come on LG those ads aren't that bad, they're pretty good IMO. The one guy that said he's always wanted a Mercedes reminded me of me.

We know the S hasn't been anything near a flop, but the total opposite.

I've seen much worse ads, plus the S looks really good in those ads.

M

houdini1

Merc, thanks for the recent pics of the car show. Also thanks for the pic of the Maybach. That thing is gorgeous. I'm not sure about the 4 barrel headlights but everything else I like. I set it as my new desk top image. Such a clean simple design. Give me some Lexus underpinings and a price around $60,000. and I would order one today.

houdini1

Nice assessment Doc. Stick to your guns. Many of us really do understand your P.O.V.

drfill

Oh, contrare, Dewey. We do share "common ground".

You missed our most obvious, the greatest, love of all.

That of the cherished manual tranny, which will have to pried from my cold, dead hand.

Now that we have finally met. How you doin'?

Oh....and now would be a good time to sell, since I have bashed the IS350 consistently for not offering a stick. Same goes for the IS-F. Not luvin' it, with the 10th-gradeer body kit. Not exactly tasteful.

DrFill

drfill

Whew, what a bag of bluster. You wouldn’t be singing that tune if Lexus had a big footprint in Europe and you know it. And Lexus isn’t the “Football of Cars” in the US. If anything it’s the “Soap Opera of Cars.” I guess it’s back to sales and waving pom-poms. Surely you can find a better way to promote Lexus.

Ah, yes, D-man. How are you?

I am fine, thanks.

Looks like you have also forgotten why I'm here. I am the corporate "plant".

I also go by a code name : "Master of the Obvious".

Alas, Lexus doesn't need any promotional help. Audi basically put out a press release of Envy recently. I will read it whenever I need a good tickle!

DrFill

drfill

Bonus Nachos, Tag Hueur!

Let me get this. Lexus has a tiny share of the European market, but you call them number one because of their sales in good 'ol U.S.A. Audi has small share of U.S.A. market, but their collosal sales in Europe don't mean anything to you???

The REAL truth is that Audi is a global success and is just now in the early stages of what is a gigantic ascention in this U.S. market. I'll bet you on this. If you don't think so, just wait and watch. Audi is coming on strong, Doc... very strong... like a freight train.

If you don't believe me, just watch the yearly sales data as time goes by.

Now you are catchin' on, mine friend.

Yes, what Lexus and/or Audi does in Europe is a non-issue. Has no effect on me. Shouldn't matter to me. Oh....wait.....no...it doesn't matter to me. That's what I meant.

If I wait any longer for Audi's train to get here, I'll have to buy stock in the NYMTA. Audi has had more than their fair chance, and can't fathom how Lexus has dominated the lux-market in a decade.

Someday, someone will care what Audi does around here (US). Someday. But it ain't today.

DrFill