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Comments
I spend a good deal of time in the "South", and you hit the nail on the head. Domestics all the way. The exceptions are Toyota, which is now an acceptable alternative... And remarkably the affordable Hyundai cars, due to socio-economic necessity.
TagMan
I remember as a kid I tried to sway my father to buy an Audi Fox. Good thing he didn't listen.
If they continue to increase lease incentives, I think they will continue to grow, as leasing is all the rage right now.
You know Tag, growing up in Nor Cal, I am a Kings fan, but I have a soft place in my heart for the Warriors.
Exactly!
Some forum members here define a HELC's excellence by high sales numbers. Sales numbers are great for Accords and Camrys but certainly not for HELCs.
-The best movies I saw were in empty cinemas.
-The best vacations I had were in places where tourists were a rare site.
-The best stock picks I ever did were stocks that were hardly covered by large brokerage houses and if they were covered they usually had hold or sell ratings.
Popularity does not define excellence, especially in the realm of HELCs.
Y' mean y' feel sorry for 'em?
Then you might just be wishing you were in the Sierras right about now... snowboarding or skiing. You probably went many times as a kid?
So... you now live in Texas, but what exactly are you doing in Kentucky?
TagMan
Tell Tiger Woods you really didn't want to win that tournament and you are GLAD he beat your brains out.
Thank heavens for all these losers (and that good ol' losers' attitude) who enjoy being losers and also rans. Without them we couldn't have real WINNERS like Lexus and Tiger.
I will never understand how not striving to be number one is a good thing.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I was *shocked* that my wife and I could sit wherever we wanted when we went to see The Queen.
Oh sure you do. Vince Lombardi strove to be numero uno and he achieved it. However his family life sucked. Also, you would be a fool to strive to beat Tiger Woods and you know it. Somewhere in between these two examples there is a plethora of every day situations where it is not good to seek the top spot if for no other reason than it is often impractical.
Doing your best and being happy? That’s a good thing.
Last I remember, Tiger was endorsing Buicks... oh well, driving a Lexus is darned close to driving a Buick anyway.
Yes, Houdini, Lexus wins the sales data game in the U.S., but loses in Japan and in the rest of the world. So, are you suggesting that Tiger isn't a Champion WORLDWIDE? If you are, then I guess Lexus loses there, too.
This game of yours goes on forever. Lexus loses worldwide, but wins in U.S. sales numbers. Lexus loses on the track EVERYWHERE! What makes a winner seems to be quite selective as I read your posts.
TagMan
Let's see what Lexus REALLY has to offer us today...
Today Lexus has a new LS, a well-made, but boring sedan that has gotten mixed reviews.
Today Lexus has a GS that is caught in the squeeze between the ES and LS and is basically a car with an identity crisis.
Today Lexus has the ES, an upscale Toyota Camry sharing a whopping percentage of Camry parts.
Today Lexus has the IS, a 3-Series wannabe if there ever was one.
Today Lexus has the SC, an inverted bathtub that is no challenge to anyone, anywhere.
Today Lexus has an RX, so long in the tooth, it needs an orthodontist to pull it... from the market that is, and replace it already with something new.
Today Lexus has a GX, nothing more than a fancy Toyota 4-Runner, for goodness sakes.
Today Lexus has an LX, a fancy, but ancient Toyota Land Cruiser.
Thank you Consumer Reports for telling folks which vacuum cleaners, dishwashers, refrigerators to buy. And oh, yes... one more appliance... Toyota/Lexus vehicles.
Because without you, CR, things would be so very different. People would buy vehicles that looked great and were fun to drive. But, thanks to you, our pencils are sharp and our clipboards are handy... and our appliances are dependable... and transportation can be all about reliably getting from point A to point B... so long as boredom doesn't put us to sleep at the wheel.
TagMan
Anyway, I find myself all over the place quite a bit. Interesting work to say the least.
Yeah, I feal sorry for the Warriors, and remember fondly the Hardaway, Mullins, Richmond days.
Ingenious.
This forum moves so quickly, I can never keep up. I just decide to post on random people's comments.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
BMW and Lexus obliged. Spectators were free climb all over their models; sales personnel were very helpful and knowledgeable.
Such was not the case with the S-Class which sat on a pedestal where one could observe only from several feet away. I asked one of the MB personnel what the size of the navigation screen is and his pompous response was "somewhere between 5 and 7 inches."
Audi did not even have an A8 at the show. They did have an S8, however it was locked and unavailable for perspective buyers comparisons.
I mistakenly thought the purpose of these shows is to give perspective buyers the opportunity to look at, sit in, and get responsible questions answered without having to venture to spread out dealerships?
It appears that is not the case, at least as far as Portland went this year. At least I had a good look at the 7 Series and LS 460.
Since when is all new for 2004 "long in the tooth"? This is only its fourth year on the market. Lexus plays the 7 year game just like everyone else.
Audi definitely stands out as being superior to Lexus in terms of prestige, performance, handling and may I had popularity (based on global sales numbers).
Thanks for concluding this debate. Although the conclusion was so obvious to begin with.
I hate it when I am confronted with locked car doors. Why bother paying the admission fees of an auto show when you can visually review a car at any parking lot?
When seriously driven the manual M5 without DSC would have axle tramp issues. Without DSC clutch plate actuation would be hard to control and this would affect its acceleration and the longetivity of certain drivetrain parts.
CAR
Houdini,
I think you missed my point?
Increased US sales of BMWs, MBs and Audis does not increase the excellence of their cars.
Before I challenge Tiger Woods I will have to challenge my wife first (who is no good golf player herself).
Lexus a winner based on US sales? The Lexus LS has been a great seller for many years in the USA. And during those years the LS was second rate when compared to its German rivals(a top Lexus executive recently confessed this )
I will never understand how not striving to be number one is a good thing.
Some people confirm greatness by sales statistics. I dont. I look at the product before the sales stats.
The U.S is really the only country where all of these cars compete head to head on a level playing field and Lexus has soundly trounced all comers for several years.
This seems to be particularly galling to BMW, Audi, and Mercedes as they would give anything to have that number 1 position in the U.S. It also seems to be particularly galling to you. You just need to get over it because Lexus will not be giving up the crown any time soon.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I have no issue with it whatsoever. I have seen the brilliant marketing program of Toyota to re-badge their cars and advertise them in the most brilliant way... and thanks to the help from CR they have done wonders. U.S. was ripe for a Lexus, and Toyota obliged.
When you look at American consumer's buying habits over the long history, it is no wonder that Lexus is successful. The history of U.S. consumer buying is not a pretty picture. The most persuaded and manipulated group of consumers ever to visit this planet. Lexus is number one here for good reason.
So, my friend, I am not in denial and I have no problem with that fact... it's just that I will continue to look at the bigger picture... and there is a big picture both inside these borders (where Lexus LS is indeed number 1 in segment sales) and outside these borders (where Lexus LS is rejected in its homeland for what it truly is, and the rest of the world where it is also rejected).
TagMan
Shh!! :surprise:
Keep your voice down! We don't want the US public to realize they've been duped for over 15 years! Let's keep this between us, and Lexus (the perpetrators of this conspiracy).
I just hope this Lexus thing doesn't take off. It is just this generation's "Pet Rock" or "Moon Pie". It'll nver last.
That would really be such a blow to the luxury car industry.
Cadillac and the Germans, to be exact, who can't beat a two-bit swindler like Toyota, a company with no disernable talent, who has successfully pulled the wool over the eyes of the World's top auto market.
And CR is the sleaziest accomplice! Lucifer's agent!!
It's all smoke and mirrors, people! Wake up!!! :mad:
For shame. 60 Minutes should do a piece, and ask an Audi exec what Lexus is doing.....
Toyota can't do luxury better than the Germans! Preposterous!
DrFill
There was a gaping hole in the U.S. automotive marketplace for a car like the bargain-priced LS when it was first introduced. Toyota was smart to take advantage. It wasn't evil as you put it, not sinister in any way. I would never suggest that. That's just plain absurd and ridiculous.
You know about Toyota's brilliant advertising... you've boasted about it here numerous times... so don't act surprised all of a sudden and be so sarcastic!
Toyota can't do luxury better than the Germans!
I've NEVER posted such a thing. They are very good at luxury. Not performance or fun, or style, IMO, but luxury, yes.
TagMan
You need to learn to speak like a beleagured auto executive.
Start hanging out with Audi suits for more details.
DrFill
What's your point, Doc? I am missing it.
TagMan
Getting back on track to the topic here as our HOST has kindly asked us to do.
Is it me, or has Toyota finally sneered Chris Bangle away from BMW? I saw a LS460 and a 750i lined up perfectly beside each other today in a parking lot.
Coincidently, the LS looked even more "bangle-ized" than it's German counterpart, especially where the trunk line meets the rear quarter panel.
The whole look of the LS just reminds me of the LS of yore. It didn't have style of it's own so it copied a magical German design and sold it a bargain price. And to this day, that's still in effect, altho I don't remember seeing a $94k LS before '07, which completely eliminates the value legacy, especially given the fact that German's have way more standard equipment.
Well I guess you should know. You're the one who just bought the most overpriced and over rated car on the planet! I guess that advertising does work on poorly informed consumers!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
How do you explain the Lotus? All the advertising and slick marketing? Give me a break. To me, it's only about the fun. The Carrera S Cab that I bought is delivering me fun by the bucket loads. That's what it does for me.
C'mon already. Get real.
TagMan
The fun that I am getting from my Porsche is worth every penny.
The history of my purchases prove that I don't use a clipboard, or rely on the media, Consumer Reports, advertising, or any other source. They are personal choices that don't have to make sense to anyone but me. I don't need to look "successful" or "smart" or "practical" and I don't need to impress anyone. I am not obsessed with reliability and I am not afraid of a car that might need an extra visit or two for service. I buy what I (and my wife) want and I don't sweat the small stuff.
My wife's needs are met by whatever might be out there in the marketplace. I guarantee you she's never read a CR magazine issue in her life. She couldn't care less. In her case she drives an MDX and a Jaguar Vanden Plas (which I do share on occassion, and I like it a lot, even though I would have chosen an S-Class). Those are the cars she selected and I bought them for her. I didn't have to approve or disapprove. In my family, when it comes to cars, we are free to express ourselves and be ourselves, and we don't care what CR or the media thinks.
Next on my radar is that new BMW 3-series convertible. That car sounds like it's going to be a bunch of fun to drive. I might get it, I might not. Also, the wife mentioned she wants to test the new BMW X5 soon... possible replacement for the MDX. We'll see. I think it was hpowders and merc that posted the third row seats are tight, but my wife will make up her own mind if they are big enough for the occassional use... especially since the rest of the vehicle sounds pretty darned nice. In the end, it will be up to her on that vehicle.
Hope you get my point.
BTW, one day, when that "horrible Audi R8" is more readily available, I might just have to buy one... that is, if I can part with my "over-priced" and "over-rated" Carrera.
TagMan
Thanks also for illustrating with your purchases why rationally choosing a high end car as you would an appliance is irrational.
LOL
Thanks also for illustrating with your purchases why rationally choosing a high end car as you would an appliance is irrational.
You are most welcome!
BTW, nice to hear from you.
TagMan
If I had to guess, I would think anyone who frequents this board could buy any automobile that he/she wanted. Plus we are all grown up consenting adults that live our lives the way we want to, do what we want to do, and buy what we want to buy. That is a given. So no one here should feel too "special" because they fit into that category.
Hope you get my point.
Houdini
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
However, quite contrary to that point was your bloated condemnation of my Porsche purchase.
Let's see, your words were that I'm a "sucker" who bought an "over-priced" and "over-rated " Porsche?
TagMan
link title
TagMan
Well I was merely agreeing with you when you said, in effect, that American consumers were dumb enough to buy anything. After all you are an American.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The MDX that CR is testing for its July comparo happens to be with the tech package, NOT the sport version, the latter of course being the more fun to drive! Why am I not surprised?
As I siad, there was a giant hole just waiting for a "Lexus" vehicle to come along.
BTW, don't you think that the brand word "Lexus" is one of the best ever to come out of a marketing think-tank? Gosh, those Toyota folks sure are brilliant at their marketing.
TagMan
Well, you are the resident design guy around here. It is cartoonish in a way, isn't it? But, my gosh, 8 million!!
TagMan
Yes, a little bit now that you mention it. The grille hints of Bugs Bunny's teeth. I still think it's low-slung, sassy and sleek (say that three times fast). Bugs himself is slick. ;-)
Well done!
But, if anybody can sell cars on reputation, it's Lexus. Never mind how the car actually stacks up.
The head-engineer of the M5 assumed all consumers wanted the best performer possible without being bogged down with such an antiquity as a manual clutch.
My friend from Dublin Ireland recently visited me and he ridiculed me and North Americans in general for our hysteria about the M5 without a stick (he found it hilarious that my BMW 335i was manual). I guess we North Americans are so nostalgic that we are even willing to forgo performance for the sake of rowing our own gears. Apparently such nostalgia is incomprehensible among other continents. And the reult of this incomprehension is a failure of an M5 that is not meant to have a stick in the first place.
The ML has been around since the ML320 days and hasn't changed all that much. The RX is an ES wagon. For those who are nervous about buying German, don't like the limited space and lousy mileage of the FX, and don't like the MDX's looks, or its fake trim, or its awful secondary controls, the RX makes sense. Its certainly a lot more competitive than the ancient Volvo XC90.
Porsche admits that the automatic Turbo is faster, but that didn't stop them from offering the MT. The M roadster is what a BMW M car should be. Simple. If a CVT could handle V-10 muscle it would probably be faster than everything else, but that wouldn't make it any fun to drive.
Can't get with you on the "awful secondary controls" of the MDX. Plus, it's light years ahead in dynamics, and all around ride IMO.
My last jaunt in an XC didn't lead me to believe it was lagging behind the RX. Neither one of these is very refined any more.
Bottom line, Lexus is known for dragging out platform re designs. How long has the LX470/Cruiser been going now?
The RX sells on prestige alone. It's just not worth it anymore. Almost everyone else has moved on. Especially it's direct competitor the MDX, and it has jumped past the RX by a country mile IMO.
Every control layout that Acura has done from the RL onward has been terrible. At least with iDrive and MMI, the control knob takes the place of most of the buttons on the dash. The MDX has the control knob and a sea of tiny identical buttons. The MDX has always handled better than the RX. It's also always been low-rent on the inside. Nothing has really changed. The FX is still for drivers, the RX is still for soccer moms, and the MDX is in the middle.
Yes the LX is an old dog. The rest of the line-up gets refreshed just as fast as everyone else. The IS came to the market after the Benz C class, and yet was replaced earlier. Same for the RX and ML. How long did the last SL sit on the market? 14 years wasn't it?