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Comments
Having read through the past week's postings, I have to say "so what?" to this whole discussion about age and demographics. I get the impression that some of the younger drivers want to use age discrimination against Lexus. LOL!
I am a Consumer Reports subscriber, but I am more interested in their reviews of washing machines, cameras, or toaster ovens, than I am in their reviews of luxury cars.
However, the only area where Consumer Reports' automotive reviews mean anything is with respect to reliability and quality issues. In that regard, it seems that their kudos to Lexus are warranted.
I have no axe to grind against Mercedes...And, I am I not a Lexus owner....I am just saying that many successful people who can afford to make choices, often choose Lexus over Mercedes. Furthermore, I note that most of the former Mercedes owners that I know who have ended up in a Lexus, have not gone back to MB. This is not a scientific survey, or a JD Power report. It is my own observation as a person with many friends and associates that drive cars in this class.
Once again some people take these car marques and rabidly root for them like their own home town baseball team.......Hey, many of us root for our own team, but as true fans of the game, we can also appreciate the virtues of the other teams in the league.
Obviously, there are differences, real or powerfully subjective, that buyers see.
Long live consumer choice is all I can say, you can't go wrong with any of them.
You're really surprising me with the theory that a waiting lists is a bad thing. Now if I go to the LS topic I can find "The first 2 months worth are sold out". What is that? Saying that a waiting list is a bad thing is sheer resentment over the fact that Lexus doesn't have one. Lexus wishes the SC430 had a following like the SL. BTW, the ES300, LS430 all had slight "waiting lists" when they were first introduced no? I'm sure the RX330 has one now too. People that want a car like a SL, SC430, Ferrari, or even a 350Z don't go anywhere in a month or so, if that were the case these car's sales would fall flat 6 months after their introduction. People have been waiting since the mid-nineties for a new SL, ditto for a new coupe from Lexus, as both of their predecessors rans for years and years. So when a new one comes out all these people who've been wanting for a new SC or SL for years are going to walk because they have to wait a few more months. I know you don't really believe that. It's not like this group needs a car per say either. A waiting list is the best thing any carmaker can have in todays market. It means you have a hot product. BTW, good design last as the previous SL had its best sales year well into it's production run, like around it's 6th or 7th model year. Though Lexus will never attain that, their previous SC430 was a highly reguarded car that many Lex fans were anxiously awaiting it's replacement. They aren't going to walk away from purchasing a SC430 because of a waiting list, because of it's design compared to the old car possibly, but not because of a waiting list.
syswei,
I'm not blindly trusting a survey like you're doing. You think they're the end-all for car ownership and they aren't. You missed the point about the Acura and Lexus transmission problems. When Benz owners come in here and post about a problem its seen as an epidemic, but when an Acura TL or Lexus ES owner says something about a transmission failure it's not even mentioned. There is also a need for a clear definition as to what exactly qualifies as a repair as a opposed to maintanence. How you can you put so much faith in something and you don't even know the criteria they use (JDP)? It doesn't make sense.
Also on the trans problem. Your thinking doesn't even allow for the possibility that not everyone who had a trans failure got a survey in the first place. There are millions of cars sold here every year and you're drawing a conclusion based on 50,000 of them, spread out among more than a few brands. No where did I state that the survey wouldn't ask about the engine/transmission, i.e. drivetrain of the car. Why twist what I stated? I said that if the problems were as widespread as they seem, by reading this board, then Acura and Lexus should have been affected more because (per you) these surveys are always correct and flawless.
I think I already agreed with you that designo editions were not worth the money, so you're repeating it for....?
You Lexus guys are really going to have to get a better grasp on all this data you all love to post about. "Days supply"...traditionally meant how many cars are in the U.S. sales pipeline, not how many cars are on the dealer's lots. Do you really think all, or even the smallest fraction of the 300+ Mercedes dealers in the U.S. have 12+ days supply of SLs on their lots? Thats about as far fetched as thinking one dealer has 35 SLs in stock.
The old standard of "days supply" means that under normal conditions they'll sell all the SLs in both ports (Jersey, Cali) in 12 days. If you can find more than 2 or 3 A8s on any Audi dealers lot you get a gold Audi ring set. JDP really needs to stop it with these bs factoids. Anyone who knows anything about cars could tell you that their list of cars/suvs/vans are all the "hot" ones right now. Any one of these brands aren't going to have many if any of these models in stock, especially the luxury cars.
______
I'm hesitant to join in on the demographics debate again, but I think overall it's the type of car (i.e. price, size, luxury first or sport first, or a good mix of, etc) that dictates the "demographic" as to who will be looking at it. Secondly it would be the brand and it's heritage, name recognition etc. In either case it's probably less than 5 years that seperate the LS and S from each other, as both are older than the guys looking at 7-Series BMWs.
M
I think it is interesting to read boo20 assert that LS owners or buyers are LESS affluent than S500 buyers, simply bcos of the price difference b/w these two cars. So what is a $30K difference in monthly lease payment ? What ? Another $500/mth ?
Seriously though, Mercedes higher price is based on the marque brand name recognition, and aspirations of many people wanting to own a Mercedes. That is the heritage that Lexus lacks, hence Lexus must price below Merc to achieve market share. What is most noteworthy is that Lexus market growth is at the expense of Mercedes. Therein lies the greatest danger Merc faces. The longer Lexus remains at the top of most surveys, the longer Lexus continues to innovate with cutting-edge techno-gizmos, and revolutionize the car industry with hybrid SUV's, the longer Lexus builds it marque-ness, and I dare say, the pricier Lexus will become.
In 15 years, I will think that Lexus will be at par with Mercedes in brand name recognition. It is inevitable giving the divergent directions both car makers are taking lately. Toyota/Lexus innovating and racking in big profits, and DCX getting bogged down with its ill-planned merger with money-losing Chrysler Corp. By the time Mercedes rids itself of DC, it will be way too late and their present problems will catch up. Sooner or later.
Yes, Lexus may be a *copy* of Merc, but a darn good one, for a lot less. I'd gladly pay less for more, unless my ego is the size of Planet Holywood
Yes Lexus has grown market share, but its been at the expense of every import luxury brand on the market, not just Mercedes. Mercedes is on a sales roll also these days. The whole market exanded somewhere in the 1990's to the point where Lexus, Mercedes and BMW sigularly sell more cars than all three combined did just a few years earlier.
I seriously doubt Lexus will ever be even with Mercedes in name, simply because Lexus doesn't have the lineup. The "wow" AMG cars add a lot of luster to the Mercedes brand as do cars like the SLR. There seems to be this theory that Mercedes is forever reaching downmarket and that couldn't be more incorrect. If anything they are trying to cover all aspects of the market. Yes they have a 25K hatchback, but they also have a 350K+ exotic coming and the Maybach is already here, which everyone knows is just a super Mercedes. Mercedes' next round of new cars/suvs are not downmarket: CLS/E (which I hope they change before production), GST, ML and the next G-Wagen are all upscale products. Not to mention that the next S is supposed to move a few notches as well.
Until Lexus gets some diversity, like true 4-seat convertibles, coupes, wagons, awd, performance variants, etc, they'll never reach Mercedes' brand recognition level overall. Mercedes' appeal goes far beyond what we all regularly debate here too. Racing plays a part in it for a few AMG buyers. If Mercedes could wrestle a Formula One title away from Ferrari you'd hear about it all year long with special F1 versions of various Mercedes models. They've done this before. Lexus simply doesn't compete on the world stage.
There is no way Mercedes is going to let Chrysler pull them down the tubes, they'll cut them loose before Mercedes suffers.
M
skinnygboss: You stated "He also went on to say that overall, the highest single percentage of a car make traded in on a Lexus is a Lexus." My point was that when people mostly trade in a Lexus for a Lexus how do you know what they previously drove before their first trade in for the Lexus? How do you know what 'market segment' they were shopping in?
As far as waiting lists is concerned I think it is good (for MB) that MB has unmet demand. It enforces pricing at MSRP for the dealer ensuring higher profits. It maintains a mystyque for the brand. People have actually been forced to wait 18 months or more for their cars. Says alot about brand loyalty and the dersirability of these cars that they don't jump ship and buy something else. Of course when the option is buying the hideous SC I would wait (indefinately if necessary) for the SL. Thank you very much.
Do me a favor. Go into any MB dealer and ask him to show you his 12 day inventory of NEW SLs. Say to him "Sir, let me see your 12 day inventory of new SLs. They said on Edmunds that I could pick one up right away." LOL!! What's a 12 day inventory of SLs anyway? The monthly sales of the previous generation SL was about 1000 cars. For the 2003 its probably less. How many MB dealers are there in the US? I don't know maybe 300. They'll each sell an average of 3 SLs per month or one every 10 days. So a 12 day "inventory" of SLs is like ONE CAR. (and it's probably an SL55)!
At the time this info was last updated there are 310 Mercedes dealers in the U.S. One, Mercedes of Manhattan is corporate owned. Anyone in the New York area ever been to this one?
M
While it was true that they started at 35K most of the cars that were sold were in the 41-43K range.
I seem to remember that leather was a $1400 option. I could be wrong on that though.
You guys might remember that it went up against the hideously expensive and heavy
S class "armored car" body style.
There was some negative reaction to the S class's styling and also a problem with the tires flatspotting due to the weight of the car.
This was also the era of the $76,000 E class convertible!!!!!
lexus truly revolutionized the luxury car segment for the better.
The customer has been the beneficiary of Lexus's entrance into the luxury car market.
There is something to be said about Mercedes' prices back in the day. For that same 76.5K that the 300CE Cabrio listed for back in 1993, you can get within 4K of a new CLK55 AMG Cabriolet. Quite a difference in cars. An AMG version of the old car would have been a 100K at least. The 300CE Cabriolet's equivalent today is the 52K CLK320 Cabriolet. The only thing the old 300CE/E320 Cabrio (arguably) has on the new cars is it's build. The performance and technology difference is like night and day. Still that particular E-Class was such the definition of Mercedes back in the day, it's a classic.
M
You ask "How you can you put so much faith in something and you don't even know the criteria they use (JDP)? It doesn't make sense." My response is: how can you put MORE faith in the anecdotes that are related on boards like this one? Anecdotes that are few in number and that are from self-selected individuals?
No one has ever said that Acura or Lexus or any other brand is problem-free. And some of the problems that people have do show up in these boards. But to judge whether, for the entire population of cars, one brand is more "problematic" than another one, you need a large, randomly-selected sample. Which is what JDP, not these boards, gives you. Not a judgement that runs something like "gee, the Acura TL has had some transmission problems, and although I have no idea how widespread the problem is, it shows that the ENTIRE Acura brand might be just as unreliable as brand X".
at par with Mercedes in brand name recognition.
It is inevitable .."
Speculation. It is not inevitable, it is not a foregone conclusion, and car makers' ability to execute to a standard of exellence for 25 years has often been tested by history, and most have failed. All credit to Lexus for where they are today - but none of us has a crystal ball, let's be honest here.
Besides, one thing that will keep on hampering the Lexus image of hyper-luxury is the lack of true $100k+ "superstar" cars. Merc understands that is integral to the "lower range" desirability, which is why they crank out such a variety of super-cars: the press keeps reviewing them, they keep enforcing the image of the top of the range that most people only dream about. Lexus will always be perceived a notch below that, and given the fact they didn't come from the very top down, unlike most of these brands, it'll be hard for them to crack that image.
Moreover - they don't need to. They have loyal customers, and there are plenty of people that seem to appreciate Lexus for what it represents: superb Japanese engineering ability combined with a very plush and luxurious driving environment. If there's one criticism I have of German brands, it it the teutonic chilliness of their interiors. Look at a $100k plus Merc or Porsche, and compare the interiors with a Bentley Continental or even a $70k Range Rover - they can't hold a candle to them. And I think it's one of the reasons Lexus managed to break into the top realm: they offered a plusher interior wihtout foring people to go for Cadillac-esque driving dynamics.
But I see that as good for me, the consumer, as it means the price/value gap will persist for awhile. And personally, I don't have to have the most prestigious car. I don't drive in order to be "seen" by others. I drive for myself.
The current argument is so skewed in the direction of merely criticizing the other brands, and over-praising one's own brand of choice, that it's become childish. We *know* owners are more critical than that, and that this illusion about this or that supposedly being the perfect car that has to be conjured up to defend it from criticism is unrealistic.
I for one think all the brands mentioned in this thread are awesome, even though for now I took another approach when it comes to my very own every day driving choice.
As for the "merits" of all these cars, I for one have been extremely pleased with the reliability and lack of unscheduled maintenance with the M5. In 33,000 miles, it was only to the dealer once for a little item in the first week of ownership. The M5 has been no less relaible than the 540i 6-speed I traded in for it and comes darn close to the same mileage (24+ highway). Makes me want to petition for a refund of the $2,200 gas guzzler I paid. Our Range Rover is lucky to get 15 mog on the highway.
As a former owner of an M1, 930 Turbo and 300 SEL 6.3, I am increasingly impressed with the fact that exceptional performance can also be reliable with todays "M" cars, Porsches and AMG offerings.
Which, frankly, makes the decrease in reliablity among the base Mecedes E class and S class cars a little more dissapointing, but hopefully that will be remedied soon.
There was an article about the merger in the 9/29 edition of Business Week. The headline reads "Was the Daimler-Chrysler merger a mistake? Many say yes and call for Schrempp's head."
Some of the problems:
1. Chrysler was supposed to make $2 billion this year. Instead it will have a $1 billion loss in the 2nd quarter to pull down the year.
2. The latest surveys "revealed embarrassing quality deficiencies at Mercedes itself, raising questions about whether the drain on management from Chrysler was affecting the classiest of German marques."
Other bits from the article:
Daimler market capitalization prior to the merger was $47 billion. Today it is $38 billion. BMW in that same time is up 27% to $25 billion.
Daimler erred in merging luxury and mass--market brands since it offers limited benefits and requires twice the expertise and effort to manage.
Under German management Chrysler's US share has fallen from 16% to 13%. Shoring up Chrysler will require Daimler to add billions, resulting in some Mercedes dealers calling Chrysler "the downfall of Mercedes."
In order to cut costs Mercedes has resorted to buying cheaper parts, including leather from Bulgaria.
After reading the article, it seems like there is the possibility the merger may at some point be undone.
;-)
No doubt about it, the M5 -as do the XJR, E55 and S8- combines everyday practicality with supercar performance, fantastic car. The manual makes it more of a "purist" event than its competitors.
"World's Fastest Sedan"
At least up until the early 90's.
Friends of mine had a '70.
They had put a low speed rearend in it.
Would do 0-60 in 7 flat with 5 people inside!!!
I drove it several times. In '82 I raced the then new Mustang GT and a '79 T/A 6.6L.
The outcome was hilarious.
It rocked.
Personally, I don't own one now and refuse to buy until I can get AWD. More recently I've been thinking I'll hold off until I can get hybrid, though that may amount to the same thing (i.e., AWD may arrive with hybrid).
I seem to recall the now defunct Merc_vs_Lex board that there were some discussions of the list of features and changes that owners will like to see. Like others, after a couple responses, it kinda died off.
BTW, it doesn't hurt to note that of the posters here only a few are actual owners of any of these cars, so the list will be short indeed ! No minds will be changed here, rather we are able to improve our writing and debating skills, lol!
That's Mercedes' biggest problem now. In a recent survey of German car owners conducted by Auto Motor und Sport motoring magazine, Lexus, Porsche, Honda and BMW captured the four top slots, while Mercedes came in 17th." Quote is from the Detroit News http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/business/2003/10/08mergerstraining.html, found the link on autospies.
Whether you are interested in buying an SL or not is not pertinent. My point simply is that MB is a very desirable brand and that several of their vehicles (even the 2004 E class) has a waiting list. The conclusion I draw from this is that, quality issues notwithstanding, many people find these cars to be very desirable and are willing to wait long periods of time and to pay MSRP. Something which is unknown in Lexus territory.
I am not wanting to start a flame war but after owning two MB's in the last 3 years and 4 BMW's in the last 4 years, I've given up on any Euro-crap and I am looking at other options and right now the Lexus looks heads and shoulders above the Euro trash.
Are there really that many people making the kind of money required to drive these types of high end vehicles?
Seriously, when you consider how much it costs for people to maintain, repair, insure, register and fuel their really nice, high-end cars, pickups and SUVs, you have to be amazed at the number of extremely expensive motor vehicles you see on the road. Personally, I find it VERY difficult to believe that the majority of the people that are driving these vehicles are making six figure salaries or greater. Yes, I am very, very aware that plenty of people are loaded in America and many other countries. But I simply cannot believe that a large percentage of the people driving high-end cars paid cash for them. Also, I believe that a lot of them are leased. The big shocker is the number of high-end vehicles that you see in certain high school and college/university parking lots! :-)
On second thought, maybe opulence abounds...
Ron M.
It is a world wide trend that more and more people drive presitge brands - they will outsell stuff like the Taurus 5:1 in just a few years, when 5 years ago the reverse was true.
Now, about all the Bimmers & Benzes in High School parking lots - depends on the school. Sometimes though parents are stupid enough to let Suzie take mom's Benz to school, and mom keeps the 86 Volvo at home because, "she's not going anywhere today".
Anyway to answer your question, although I don't know what the percentages of lux cars are leased my guess is that it is a minority. And, yes, there are huge numbers of very sucessful people out there. Consider that 1% of families (about 1 million familes I guess) have a declared annual income of greater than $500,000 per year. And that's according to the IRS. The underground economy is several fold larger than this and I'm sure there is a HUGE amount of undeclared income. I would hazard to guess that 2 - 3% of famlies in the US have incomes over 500 K per year.
> famlies in the US have incomes over 500 K per
> year.
For my belief in society, I prefer to think you're totally off and not believe that 66% of all affluent people are criminals. Tax evasion is no gentleman's crime when others are footing the bill.
If they resurfaced them, it was done improperly, you need new rotors.
Sometimes the operator doing the resurfacing
messes up the rotor.
This happened to me on my Olds Intrigue with 76 miles!!
Rotors warped the day I bought it.
Dealer resurfaced the rotors.
Pulled out of the dealership to a stoplight. Every thing was fine.
Went over a bridge, came to the bottom, pushed on the brakes and nobody was home.
Had to use both feet to make the turn.
When i pushed harder on the brakes I didn't get anymore stopping ability than when I pushed lightly.
If you go to a lexus dealer you will probably find a lot full of Mercedes that have been traded in. Many of them almost new and with very low miles....
It is hard to put miles on a car that is sitting in the shop, not to mention the fact that people don't like driving cars that don't stop when you want them to.
Waiting lists mean exclusivity and for those with the desire and cash it's the only way to get certain premium vehicles. Lines are forming for the new generation M5 and we don't even know when the car will be out. That's passion!!!
BWWseller - now You don't expect us to take you seriously given your job as a BMW salesman and obvious bias. A while back we had an Infiniti salesman on one of the boards and he actually had some real good unbiased comments.
The Lexus dealer I use also had a very sparse amount of cars on his lot when I was in about two weeks ago.
Please read to pablo_l Oct 9, 2003 12:23pm. That message captures the spirit of this discussion.
There are many other places all over the Town Hall to get into head to head brand bashing. Please find a more appropriate discussion if that is what interests you. THIS discussion is not the place.
Thank you for your cooperation.
- desire by the manufacturer to keep up the brand image
- poor planning/forcasting of demand
- supply/manufacturing constraints
If the idea of looking at the waiting lists / dealer stock is to guage "desirablility" or "popularity", it is better to look at actual sales figures of comparable vehicles. By this measure the SL for example appears more "desired" or popular than the SC, for instance (outselling by about 11% in unit terms).
If you look across the entire product lines, Lexus outsells MB (adding cars and SUVs together), while MB does better in cars and Lexus does better in SUVs.
Thanks for your input.
Mark
Someone on the mbworld forum just took delivery of an SL500. He placed his order 2 YEARS AGO. I guess he didn't know about the "12 day inventory" of cars that these dealers had. LOL.
As far as reliability is concerned consider this. I will be spending more time in the shop for repairs of my MB and you will be spending more time in the shop for scheduled maintanence. Because of superior engine technology (compared to Lexus) MB vehicle maintanence averages once a year and 12,000 miles and can be as long as 2 years or 20,000 miles.
Alot of people here seem to think that we have to get our MBs towed everytime we drive them. LOL. Since I bought my first MB in late '93 ('94 model) I have NEVER been stranded. The two MBs that I own now have rarely seen the inside of the shop outside of scheduled maintenance. You can choose to believe that or persist in the delusion that they are constantly breaking down that's fine with me.
'Nuff said.
60-0 braking
RX330: 122ft.
X5 3.0: 123ft.
X5 4.4i:124ft.
X5 4.6i: 117ft.
And you really can't have a "0-70" panic stop. That would be more like a "panic acceleration".
The RX330 also has a lower step in height, not the X5.
I like your attempt to "Bash" the RX330 by calling it a "Camry wagon". Is that how you sell X5s when customers are cross shopping RX330s? Do you say to the customer "Oh well why would you want to buy the RX330, it's just a Camry wagon"? You must be a really professional salesperson.
I can't wait to see my first Phantom. I bet it will be better than my 525.
And man, is that Mini a sturdy well-constructed car. It's not just a trend.