High End Luxury Cars

oac3

and he will surely go away !

Now what was it we were talking about again ? Oh, Lexus versus Mercedes, the networth of owners, affordability, availability, etc... That is far more interesting than peddling stupid, silly Mini's on a High-End Luxury marque forum.

Sheesh...

bmwseller

It's a fact that the RX330 is built on a camry chassis, right? At least I got that right.
I may amend my statement of the braking distance as the information I have may be comparing to the RX300. However, given that the X5 is about 500 pounds more than the Lexus, it's obvious which one has better brakes, right? BMW leads the industry in brakes. In addition, I believe my entry level, ground clearance, is correct in that the X5 would be easier to get in and out of.
  My thousands of clients would attest to my professionalism and as I have stated in previous posts, I frequent these chats as a car enthusiast, and I'm not treating you people as potential buyers. I'm not prospecting as I have plenty of clients and, if I were, I would definitely have a different approach. Lighten' up, if you came on my lot you'd love me and I'd probably make a fair commission on you.

dafactorator

More braking comparisons:

60-0:
LS430: 115ft
745Li: 122ft.

GS430: 115ft.
540i Sport:121ft.

ES300: 123ft.
IS300: 112-118ft.
BMW 330i: 129ft.
330xi: 130ft.

Source: Motor Trend

Ground clearance and step-in height are 2 different numbers.

"thousands of clients". huh. That's quite alot. You must work 24 hours a day to sell all them people cars. Don't forget you should be a millionaire then, why not retire?

bmwseller

retirement wouldn't be near as fun as this.

Thousands yes........12 years about 150 to 200 cars per year plus the cars i've bought and sold for others as a broker. yes, thousands. Not 24 hours a day but about 65 hours a week.

Now can we quit picking on the car salesman. You can correct me politely without the insults, right? If you are not an adult than I understand.

How about we stay on topic? Do you feel that Mercedes Benz has diminished their brand name since associating with chrysler and mitsubishi?

syswei

You wrote "I frequent these chats as a car enthusiast, and I'm not treating you people as potential buyers. I'm not prospecting as I have plenty of clients". I guess I believe that as much as I believe talk from any car salesman. Which means, I don't automatically believe it.

If you're not on edmunds to sell cars, why did you choose the moniker "bmwseller"? Why do you put an email address in your profile? (Most people don't, because they want to aoid spam.) Why do you put your credentials as a salesperson in your profile?

i_drive

i have now finally decided on either purchasing an 03' BMW 745Li NEW or '04 Cayenne V6 (it's just called the "Cayenne").

yes, i had absolutely no idea about a V6 Cayenne until last night when i went to the official Porsche USA website. the MSRP is set at $40,000. sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
but, is that a mistake? i have never heard anywhere else about a 240hp V6 Cayenne comming to the US soon.

i got a pretty decent quote on a new '03 745Li: $898/month, $3,000 due at lease signing. my wife likes both of them.

do any of you know ANY info about the Cayenne?

boo20

Go into any MB dealership. Try to get the more popular models. There will be a waiting list. This typically lasts for several years after the introduction of a new car. It happened with the SLK. It happened with the CLK. It happened with the SL, etc. NOW you can pick an SLK and CLK off of the lot without any problems. But not the SL (yet). The reason the '04 E class are sold out and there is a surplus of '03s is because the '04s are percieved as being worthwhile waiting for by virtue of the new 7 speed transmission. (Incidentally, in attempt to keep pace with MB, Lexus has introduced a 6 speed transmission. But, as usual, they'll be several years behind in introducing a 7 speed, but they eventually will).

I hope you guys will stop spreading misinformation and stop the ad hominum attacks. I'm not the issue. Stick to discussing the cars and the carmakers.

Please.

ljflx

As I said - no one who buys Lexus takes you seriously, particularly when you pass on bad information. The car should be able to sell on its own merit. It doesn't need to be lied about. If anything your comments would serve to push me away from BMW as it seems you need to put Lexus down in order to push up BMW. BMW is a strong enough brand and makes excellent vehicles and doesn't need "wrestler" like talk to buttress itself.

skinnggboss - It's not worth it. If he wants to believe there is a waiting list till March 2004 for a car that has barely changed from 2003 while there are so many 2003's around with big discounts on them, then let him. Common sense tells you that isn't the case without any need to check data.

Onto Pablo's point - I second everything syswei posted about the LS430 yesterday and also suggest they add in at least one other V-8 engine option, a v-10 or v-12 engine option and perhaps a second level sports package with sport-clad body treatment. I'd also like to be able to get tinted windows directly from the factory and have the option of a factory dvd entertainment system. But please, never compromise the fabulous ride of this car.

syswei

You wrote, "The reason the '04 E class are sold out and there is a surplus of '03s is because the '04s are percieved as being worthwhile waiting for by virtue of the new 7 speed transmission."

I have news for you. The 2004 E does not come with the 7 speed. MB was disappointed with 2003E sales, and it went off wait list status rather early in its life. I frankly find it hard to believe that the 2004 has suddenly developed a wait lists on a widespread basis.

i_drive

please don't accuse me of advertising for car dealerships. i just wanted to know if that was a good deal for a new 7, or are there any better deals. also, i wanted to know if i should wait for the V6 Cayenne instead.

i didn't come here to get yelled at like that for no reason.

as rodney king said many many years ago in LA, "why can't we all just get along?" ;-)

mjfloyd1

A friend of mine paid 15K over sticker for a MB SL to avoid a waiting list (after selling his x5 to his brother). Now he wants another SUV (bad winter here in Indiana last winter) and found out his mint SL with 4700 miles is worth 84K (paid 104K). OUCH

syswei

There is something in the latest Car & Driver or maybe its Road & Track about a V6 Cayenne, so it does appear to be real.

The reason some are taking offense at bmwseller is that he has a monetary incentive to promote BMW and bash its competitors. Not the same thing as liking BMW or MB or Porsche or whatever legitimatley as a consumer.

boo20

The 7 speed is new in the S, CL and SL class for '04. It is also available on the '04 E 500 (but not the E 320). Another reason people may be waiting for the '04 E class is because this is the first year that MB is bringing back the legendary E 500. The '03s are only available with 3.2 and 4.3 L engines.

Anyway my main point is that the public percieves Mercedes as very desirable cars. This in spite of the fact that it is more expensive and less reliable than Lexus. Why do you think that is? Why are people willing to wait 2 years for an unreliable MB when they could just as well walk in and get a Toyota (er..Lexus. Actually they are all branded as Toyotas in Japan) on the spot without waiting?

mjifloyd1: Yes, indeed, SLs depreciate very rapidly. This is well known to those of us that own them.

Still worth it though, IMO.

syswei

You asked "the public percieves Mercedes as very desirable cars...Why do you think that is?"

Haven't we been over this? MB has higher prestige/snob appeal, and that matters a great deal to some people. Some, myself included, think it has better exterior styling. It offers a wider range of sportiness (i.e., base S, S with Sport package, AMG S55) which is preferred by some. Finally, it has a much broader product line in cars (not SUVs)...click on the "model selector" feature on their website and there are fully 33(!) car variations...whereas Lexus has just 8.

So it is no surprise that MB still outsells Lexus in cars (again, not SUVs). If they keep up the lousy work in the quality/reliability department (where they were number 1 in 1990) that standing may not last indefinitely.

syswei

question 1: What 2-seater goes 0-60 in 6.1 seconds and costs $89k?

question 2: What 4-door full-size sedan goes 0-60 in 5.9 seconds and costs $55-70k?

Answers: 2004 MB SL500; 2004 Lexus LS430.
Sources: MB and Lexus websites, today's info

OK, OK, we all know that the LS isn't a sports car or even a sports sedan, and it isn't going to corner or generally "handle" as well as the SL...but I do want do show that the Lexus isn't a total slouch at the performance game.

b4z

Edmunds allows them to participate as long as they don't actively solicit business.
I don't think bmwseller has actively tried to get any of us to buy a car from him.
His participation is no different than others who are rabid about "their" particular marque.
There have been many car salesman who participate here and it is good to get their input.
Like any car salesman, they have wrong info from time to time.
If I posted some wrong info I would expect to be corrected. Not lambasted.

ljflx

If I go MB shopping tommorrow how long will I have to wait for a car? Let's say I want a 2004 E320. I guess every E-class car coming into a US port for the next 6 months is already sold so I have to rule that out. The S-class - you haven't stated the wait period on that - only that I have to wait some unspecified period of time. Same for the C-class and every other MB model except the SL where I will have to wait until October 2005. But I can go to Lexus and take any car off the lot and drive it home tommorrow. Oh yeah - if I want a 2003 MB I can take one at a huge discount but that doesn't count.

Whether you realize it or not you have blanketed every car MB makes as something you have to wait for because of the phenomenal desirability of the brand. Of course you haven't explained why so many 2003's are available. Remember, per your statements the public is willing to pony up and wait for an MB whereas they can buy any Lexus at any time. Some MB cars are unspecified waits or at least you haven't informed us of the wait as yet, some are 6 months (aren't we lucky it's only that long and too bad for all those with expiring leases in that period because there is no car available for them) and some (the one that sells 10k per annum) are 2 years.

Now do you understand why no one believes the bull you are peddling here.

boo20

Asked and answered.

Please show me where I have said that the C class is on backorder. Please show me where I have claimed that ALL MBs have a waiting list.

Before we go any further than this please quote the specific post (by number) where I have made this claim. Here I'll help you out. Here is what I actually said:

post 3102 : "Go into any MB dealership. Try to get the MORE POPULAR models. There will be a waiting list. This typically lasts for several years after the introduction of a new car. It happened with the SLK. It happened with the CLK. It happened with the SL, etc. NOW you can pick an SLK and CLK off of the lot WITHOUT ANY PROBLEMS. But not the SL (yet)."

post 3066: "You could get a leftover 2003 for considerably less though. The S class has NEVER HAD AN ORDER BACKLOG as has some of MBs "sexier" models: CL, SL etc. or even its bread and butter E class whose price point is more in line with what the average luxury car buyer is willing (or able) to spend."

Isn't is rather strange that you cannot find a SINGLE post of mine where I discuss the availability of the C CLASS. Why are you telling these untruths?

bmwseller

is volvo considered a high end luxury marque? What about jaguar, or range rover? What is the difference, if there is one, and what happens when a company is bought out by a domestic like ford? Do some buyers not even notice? Mercedes has seemed to avoid any such stigmas but aren't they (daimler chrysler) beginning production on some S classes in china? On the other hand I think that lexus is known as a luxury make with the reliability and practicality of a toyota which is a name that has great heritage. I like what Toyota does as a company but not what daimler-chrysler does. (no mention of that one car company that shall remain nameless in the post)

boo20

I don't know exactly where BMW fits into this whole disucssion. For my money they seem to be in fierce competition with Lexus as to who can produce the most tasteless design.

sv7887

Hi All,

I'd like to address the following:

"As far as reliability is concerned consider this. I will be spending more time in the shop for repairs of my MB and you will be spending more time in the shop for scheduled maintanence. Because of superior engine technology (compared to Lexus) MB vehicle maintanence averages once a year and 12,000 miles and can be as long as 2 years or 20,000 miles."

Superior Engine Technology? I think not...I only take my cars in for service every 15,000 miles. Check the Lexus maintenance schedule before you make statements like that. The car, like practically any other, requires an Oil change every 5000-7500 miles. Any decent mechanic will tell you frequent oil changes are probably one of the best things you can do for you car. Obviously, the Duration depends on how much you drive.

I'd bet my maintenance costs for my 1992 LS400 are lower than any comparable luxury car of that year. $3,200 over 11 yrs. That's $290/ yr. As for spending time in the shop...Never been stranded ever. It's all been routine and I was provided a loaner car each time. They even pick up the car and drop off the loaner.

Don't you think those infrequent service intervals have something to do with MB's spotty record these days?

As for the Seven Speed Issue...Don't you think this is overkill? I don't see anyone else rushing to adopt a 7 Speed Transmission. Even a high performance car like a Corvette, Aston Martin Vanquish, and Porsche 911 only have six speeds and can probably beat anything MB has to offer.

Incorporating a Seven speed transmission is just more Marketing fodder for the MB bull sessions that we repeatedly hear on this board. Why hasn't Lexus built one? They don't see a need for it. That's the key to the bulletproof reliability of their cars. They don't implement needless technology and complicated designs.

I'll leave the "waiting list" issue to the rest of the Lexus loyalists here.

SV

ljflx

I have read so many of your posts putting Lexus down everywhere you can for reasons only you could possibly know. Just as an example look at the E-class board at your post 5232. This is probably the post skinnygboss was referring to earlier today. You imply that any Lexus can be had at steep discounts while people get in line for MB's. You then hedge yourself by quoting waiting lists for the low production cars (the E is the exception and no one buys a 6 month wait let alone a 6 week one)and compare that to all Lexus cars. So do I sense an exaggeration. Yep - big time. Those hefty discounts are on 2003's just like the ones MB dealers and the rest of the car world are discounting to sell.

What I'm curious about are the putdowns. Does bashing Lexus make you feel better about your purchase or yourself? Can you not deal with how quickly and effectively Lexus penetrated the US market? Does the quote - which I've heard often about other things like "it's as reliable as a Lexus" bother you to no end? Anyway - and to be honest with you - it's all rather pointless because both brands are heavily desirable and comparisons to MSRP have to include a lot more than desirability anyway. They include everything from production and inventory controls to flexibility of pricing a manufacturer allows his dealer (Lexus is broad, MB is tight) and a lot of things in between. So let's put an end to these fruitless, rather tiring and most certainly boring points.

boo20

syswei: you stated on post #3104 that "I have news for you. The 2004 E does not come with the 7 speed."

Well I have news for YOU. Here's a window sticker from an '04 E class car . The very first item on the upper left lists the 7-speed transmission as a standard feature of the '04 E 500.

sv7887: you state "The car, like practically any other, requires an Oil change every 5000-7500 miles. ".

Yes EXCEPT for MB. The oil changes are done on average every 12,000 miles but can range from 10,000 to 20,000 miles depending on driving conditions. These conditions are determined by computer sensors which constantly monitor the quality and quantity of oil. The system is called FSS (flexible service system).

You also state "As for the Seven Speed Issue...Don't you think this is overkill? ...Incorporating a Seven speed transmission is just more Marketing fodder for the MB bull sessions that we repeatedly hear on this board. Why hasn't Lexus built one?"

I see. So if the MB seven speed transmission is overkill why is Lexus going from a 5 speed to a six speed transmission?

The rationale behind the seven speed is twofold. It improves gas milage by about 5% AND AT THE SAME TIME improves 0 - 60 times by about 0.3 seconds. Tests of passing ability such as going from 40 - 70 mph are improved by 2 - 3 SECONDS! If you can get better performance AND fuel economy at the same time then why not?

ljflx: where exactly, other than my criticism of Lexus styling, have I shown disrepect for the car?

ljflx

I'm done with this exchange. Just go read your own posts.

boo20

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I have acknowledged that Lexus makes more reliable cars.

I like the styling, safety and innovaton of MB and think that the reliability question, although real and measurable, is not important. Also my personal experience is that MBs are reliable. I guess I must be lying about this too, huh?

Here's an example where MB leads Lexus in innovation and safety. In the '04 S class e.g., MB has introduced "pre-safe", a feature where, if the onbaord computers detect a hazardous situation, they will automatically lower the rear part of the drivers seat and simultaneously raise the front part of the drivers seat to prevent submarining under the seatbelt. The sunrroof will also close automatically etc.

I've really approached these discussions in good faith. I've tried to explain some MB features to the readers. When I stated that the '04 E class has a seven speed transmission I was told this isn't true. When I documented that it is, indeed, true I was told it wasn't an important feature and was just a "marketing ploy". When I showed why it was important I'm now anticipating the response that "OK, it's present on the '04 E class AND it's a useful feature BUT MB reliability will be so poor that it won't work." You keep changing the bar and changing the subject.

I'll tell you what: if you want I'll just withdraw from these discussions. Then the Lexus people can have the floor all to themselves, not hear any contrary opinon and spend all of their time massaging each others egos and complimenting each other on the great decision they have made.

oac3

7-speed tranny is not a biggie as you make it to be. So it improves gas mileage by a whopping 5%. Whopsie doo... So what REAL difference b/w an 0-60 of 6.1s and 5.8s. Both times are FAST enough.

It's the little things that are getting left behind by Mercedes, hence the deteriorating reliability of their high-priced cars/SUV's. Lexus got it right in the little things, hence riding high in the reliability sector. Design ? That is in the eye of the beholder. Nothing wrong with the 1st and 2nd gen LS's. I don't particularly like the '01-'03 redesign, but the small changes to the '04 makes a huge improvement. I cannot wait for the MY 2006 redesign, which hopefully will be based on the HPX platform.

ljflx

I'm not one that knocks MB cars. They make spectacular cars and they are number one in innovation - both on the safety side and they push the envelope on the automotive side. But they have suffered a great fall in reliability. It's posted and quoted everywhere and just about everyone I know has had problems with MB cars in the past several years and a number of those people have switched over to Lexus. My experience is the same that Donn Fenn posted a few days ago. CR, JDP and now even Germans themselves in a JDP survey are rating MB quality lower and lower. If MB loyalists choose to belittle those surveys that is their perogative. But the damage from them will show up in the future unless it is fixed soon - you can bet the value of your car on that. Perception always takes a while to catch up with reality but inevitably it does. People aren't dumb they are just hesitant to change their views. Look at the stock market for proof of that.

I'm a person that believes you fix what is broken before you make new innovations. MB has not had too many things that were broken in the past so they've never been down this road. But continuing to lead innovation at a time when buyers are showing lowering quality numbers doesn't go well together long-term. This is all happening in the last 5 years and it seems to be worsening. That doesn't mean it is happening to every MB car buyer just like it doesn't mean every Lexus car buyer is getting the bulletproof car they thought they signed on for.

So do they make great automotive cars - yes. Would I buy an $88k S-500 over a $67k LS430 (which, by the way also has a pre-safe collision option in 2004). No, not me. It's not the price its the fact that the Lexus is the better car for me. As well I'm used to perfection and I have full confidence in the Lexus and not a lot of confidence in the MB. But I don't fault the guy who does buy the MB provided he is buying the car and not the three pointed star.

syswei

You wrote, “Let's say I want a 2004 E320. I guess every E-class car coming into a US port for the next 6 months is already sold so I have to rule that out.”

Sometimes, I wonder where you get your “facts”. Do go into a local MB dealership, talk to a salesman, and then make the dual mistakes of (1) believing everything a salesman tells you, and (2) assuming it applies to all dealerships?

I found a MB dealer, Power Automotive in CA, that seems to have an online realtime inventory. Maybe there are other MB dealerships that do this, this is just the first I ran across. Go to “Find a New Vehicle” here: http://www.autonation.com/Content/HubNewInventory.asp?SiteId=430 to check the facts; this particular dealer has in stock (as of the time of this post):

36 E’s, including 18 2004’s

4 SL’s, including 3 SL500 and 1 SL55

So, are you going to stand by your original statement, that “every E-class car coming into a US port for the next 6 months is already sold”. Do you still doubt the 12-day AVERAGE SL supply figure, gathered from a survey of 3000 dealers (don’t know how many MB dealers)?

7-speeds do seem in shorter supply at Power Auto, but I think this has something to do with MB’s late delivery of 7-speeds. I noticed that as of a couple days ago, the MB website had info on all the 2004 models except the ones that come with the 7-speed, like the S and SL. It is only in the last couple days that they added this info. This might mean the cars with 7-speeds are on a later delivery schedule than cars with 5-speeds, like the E320.

Slightly changing the subject, your original post on the E was: “The reason the '04 E class are sold out and there is a surplus of '03s is because the '04s are percieved as being worthwhile waiting for by virtue of the new 7 speed transmission.” Since you said “E class” rather than E500, I didn’t check both the E320 and E500, only the E320, which for 2004 still has the 5-speed transmission. I was wrong to assume that this applied to the entire E-class. But can you see why this happened? Your original post made it seem like ALL 2004 E’s had the 7-speed, which is not true.

b4z

It would never cross m y mind to delay an oil change to 10,000 much less 20,000 miles.

Mine are done every 3K and sometimes 5K if it is freeway driving.

If I were to use synthetic I ewould probably go 5K to 7.5K miles.

boo20

Hah! The Power group represents THIRTY-THREE dealerships in California and among ALL of them you manage to find 3 SL500s and 1 SL55 among them at the end of the model year. So this is a 12 day supply??

Congratulations!

Look I have been shopping these cars for many years. When I say that a new model introduction requires a wait list, sometimes up to 2 years, I mean it. I tried to get a CLK when it first came out about 6 years ago and you had to put your name on a list. I tried to get an SL500 (R230)when it first came out but had to get on a list. When the SLK was introduced there was no dealer stock for the first 2 years or so and, guess what, you had to get on a list.

AT this point I really don't care if you believe me or not. It's irrelevant. I'm arguing with people who have not tried to buy these cars in the first couple of years after a new model introduction.

I'm outta here.

syswei

Maybe you need to check your facts more carefully before you post. Power Auto may have 33 California locations, but exactly TWO of them are MB locations (Buena Park and Torrance), and between those TWO locations they have 4 SLs and 18 2004 E's (the car where you said "every E-class car coming into a US port for the next 6 months is already sold"). These are real, in stock cars, and the website even lists VINs.

syswei

Following up on the SL inventory question, since you still seem to be in denial on the SL 12-day figure. As some MB fan(s), maybe yourself, pointed out, MB has been selling about 1000 SLs monthly among 300 dealerships, which implies that the 12-day supply would work out to 395 in-stock cars nationally, or about 1.3 per dealer.

Power Auto is actually part of AutoNation, and if you go to their national site, http://www.autonation.com/Corporate/Default.asp?Page=Home, you’ll see that they have 11 MB dealerships in total, and that between them they have 32 SLs in stock, or 2.9 per dealer…about a 27-day supply.

pablo_l

The Merc wait thing: it is undeniable *some* cars have long waiting lists. Nut not *all* of them. You can typically get the lower end models quite quickly here in the USA (in Europe there are actually waits for the lower end models, too, my sister had to wait 5 months for her specced out A190).

Here's how I'd rate (for 1 to 5 stars) some key aspects important to me when buying a car, based on perception of the different brands:

Mercedes:
Soul ***
Fun to drive ****
Interior ***
Reliability ****
Service ***
Summary: Consistent, but avoids extremes by design. Their diesels and some lower end models (not in the US line-up) continue to have legendary longevity.

Lexus:
Soul **
Fun to drive ***
Interior ****
Reliability *****
Service *****
Summary: Slanted towards trouble free experience and coziness. Great service experience.

BMW:
Soul ***
Fun to drive *****
Interior ***
Reliability ***
Service **
Summary: Not as ultimate and superior as a driving machine as the ads say, but a blast to drive. Not a car to own if you want to keep it for 200k miles.

Jaguar:
Soul ***
Fun to drive ****
Interior ****
Reliability ****
Service ***
Summary: Underrated. X Type introduction affected service experience negatively.

Audi:
Soul **
Fun to drive ***
Interior ****
Reliability ***
Service ****
Summary: In Germany, Audi is perceived to have the best engineering by many, it doesn't translate as well to US roads, though.

boo20

Well if that's the case then these cars are just now starting to become available. I've been shopping for several years and most of the new models require being placed on a waiting list. I would understand how that is hard to believe for a mass marketer like Toyota but it's a fact. After a variable period of time these cars do become widely available in stock but it takes awhile.

Indeed, just the other day I posted a link to an MB forum (that was removed by Pat) in which someone just took delivery of a 2004 SL500 after a 2 YEAR WAIT. This is precisely the reason I did not want to place myself on a waiting list. They are so long with the introduction of new models that by the time you get your car they are widely available at the showroom. This appears to be what is happening now with the SL but the R230 has been out quite awhile already.

It's pretty clear to me that none of the Lexus ethusiasts here have ever tried to get a more popular MB model. They have never shopped for an SL, CL, CLK, SLK etc at their introduction or, in some cases, within, a few years.

There is a good reason for this: people desire these cars to an extent that Lexus could only dream about.

Oh, by the way, have you heard about the "cornering xenons" that MB is introducing in some of the '04 models. This faeture actually turns the headlights INTO a turn so as to better illuminate the path of the vehicle. This will have Lexus playing catchup once again.

Oh, I know. Don't bother to tell me: like the 7G transmission it's not considered to be worthwhile feature by the Lexus people (who surprisingly can't get it). Still waiting on an answer to my question as to why Lexus has upgraded to a 6 speed transmission if the current 5 speed is good enough.

michael_mattox

"mass markerter like Toyota" THERE YOU GO AGAIN

I suppose it would make as much sense to say (in reference to Mercedes) a mass marketer like Chrysler.

Has Mercedes/Chrysler surpassed Hundai yet in reliability??? Has Mercedes inched ahead of Cady or Honda/Accura yet???? Are they at least more reliable then BMW...(maybe???)

boo20

Question for you michael_mattox: what is the LS 430 marketed as in Japan? Hint it is sold as the TOYOTA CELSIOR. Did Toyota predate the existence of Lexus?

MB invented the automobile. Chrysler, by contrast, wasn't even on the distant horizon. Chrysler does not design MB cars. Toyota designs and builds the Lexus. In fact Lexus is basically a big Toyota and is marketed as such in Japan where their populaton is not so naive as to believe otherwise.

Toyota seems to understand that the Lexus is basically a big Toyota. Why don't you?

michael_mattox

Didn't someone mention that MB is about to be build by Chrysler in China????

For a Premium car to be built by the top quality auto company in the world sounds like a good thing to me...I would note that Lexus is build in plants in Japan that are exclusive to Lexus.

Finally, following your reasoning I would have to say then, that Toyota makes a better riding, more reliable and for my tastes superior luxury car then MB/Chrysler.

If you don't believe my opinion check the NOV. issue of consumer reports...or just listen to the comments of those on this board that have owned both cars. (Or have at least driven both cars)

bmwseller

true...also, the rx330, far and away lexus' sales leader, is built in canada.

Luxury autos from china and canada. Of course, we're guilty here of selling roadsters and X5's from south carolina.

300eguy05

Lexus has the cornering headlights in the 2004 RX, which has been out for quite some time. BMW has it on the 2004 3 series coupes and convertibles, I believe. Is it just me or is Lexus getting better at implementing these technologies in their cars faster? the 2004 LS has a Pre-safe system just like the 2003 S does. That didn't take very long.
 
Some of you are making it out that Lexus has to wait 5 years to put new technology in their cars. That just doesn't seem to be the case any longer.

syswei

I think that's a pretty good subjective evaluation, and I'm glad that some here keep an open mind about things.

syswei

You wrote "'cornering xenons' that MB is introducing in some of the '04 models...will have Lexus playing catchup once again". 300eguy05 is right, this was on the RX330 that shipped in April 2003. And I'm not even sure that Lexus was first with this. So, did MB "copy" and "play catchup" with Lexus (or whoever was first)?

As far as the 7-speed transmission, I for one see it as a valuable incremental innovation. But it is downright silly to assume that Lexus introduced a 6-speed as a direct competitive response solely directed at MB. Auto transmissions over the years went from 3 speed to 4 to 5 to 6/7. It takes YEARS of engineering work make any one of those jumps. Only a fool would believe that Lexus heard about the MB 7-speed and then started a crash program to go to 6-speed, and managed to get it to market so quickly. No, it is much more reasonable to assume that Lexus assumed the industry would progress from 5, to 6, to 7, etc and has had long-running development programs intended to keep pace with the industry, and competitors like MB, BMW, Audi, etc generally, not the MB 7 specifically.

By the way, since you are so impressed with the acceleration and fuel-economy benefits of the 7-speed, what are you going to say when Lexus is the first in the industry with hybrid powertrains? Hybrid technology is going to give acceleration and fuel-economy benefits that make the 7-speed benefits look like small change. Just wait and see.

pablo_l

...*ALL* these vendors are mass market producers, make no mistake about it. The entry luxury sedan has become the largest segment when it comes to sedans, world wide, and all these guys have a mass stake in it.

The reason for wait lists is easy: no one wants to keep a large inventory of $30k items, the concept of "just in time" manufacturing is integral to car makers' ability to compete. These are rule *all* of the discussed vendors abide by, and it's idiotic to try to claim it detracts from one or the other vendors' appeal. And it's very easy for demand to outsize supply initially, since many customers put in their orders before cars are available, and the early fashinability of the model or sustained desirability adds to that. It would be suicidal and stupid of vendors to size production numbers to cope with that initial demand boost early in the model's lifetime.

pablo_l

I seem to vividly remember the Lex SC430 had long inital wait lists and sold over MSRP. In fact, the Merc dealer where my wife bought her car tried to sell me an SC430 they had at over MSRP at that early time, they'd scored it at somewhere and surely made a bundle on it.

Indicentally, wait lists are a dangerous game to play, because customers do grow tired of them and cancel orders left and right, wrecking havoc all around, and also test customers' patience. One of the reasosn Merc lost luxury sedan market share to the Beemer 7 series in Germany was the fact that MB had ridiculously long wait lists, and customers migrated over to the BMW dealerships at a time when BMW still had somewhat questionable luxury sedan appeal, put off by MB's wait lists.

I have cancelled cars that were on wait lists. I did want one of the early Minis, the dealer was an idiot, my order got delayed 6 months and I grew tired of waiting, and the novelty value had worn off anyhow. I for one will *never* wait 2 years for a car, it puts me off big time. I briefly considered a CL500 back in 2000, but when the dealer said 12 months I just laughed. I went over to the Jag dealership and bought an XJR they had there in the lot, cash. I am sure Merc would have liked the money.

boo20

The E500 is a legendary car (formerly known as the 500E). Look it up.

I never said that the CLK or SLK were currently on backorder. Yet another example of you putting words into my mouth. At one point someone even claimed that I said the C class had a waiting list. I said no such thing. What I did say is that when the SLK, CLK (which have been around quite a while) were introduced and for a few years afterwards there was a waiting list. Just as there has been (until recently apparantly) for the SL. Let's not even begin to discuss the issue of 7G-tronic transmssions where the bar is constantly being changed when you have been proved wrong. By contrast there is never a waiting list for the big Toyota.

Lexus is always playing catchup in technology. That along with its uninspired styling, reminicent more of a hearse than a luxury car, are two reasons that I don't see much of a future for Lexus in this market unless they get their act together.

By the way, does Lexus have all wheel drive on any of its sedans? No.

Does it have ANY car that competes with the incredible AMG designs (E55 469 HP, 0 - 60 4.5 sec)? No.

Does it make any high end vehicles like the S600, SL600 or CL600 (12 cylinder. all available for '04)? No.

But they do know how to make a good and reliable Toyota. I'll grant you that much. And at least, unlike some of their proponents, they know a Toyota (Lexus) when they see it.

When Lexus has a 100 year history behind it, like MB, come back and we can discuss heritage, presitge and what it means to lead rather than follow in the luxury car market.

sorter

No doubt Benz was legendary and in fact both BMW and Lexus have been catching up. Things changed since the early 1990s when Benz was till the best made and most reliable car. Lexus came up with LS which cost half of a Benz and keep kaisen it into the closest of any car can ever get to become flawless. BMW keep winning customers away with the excitements they feel every corner they turn.

What can be more embarrassing than the J.D. Power score this year? You can argue the accuracy all you want, but in 1991, Benz was #1 according to the same institution. you are right about “get their act together”, but that should be the doing of the 3 star brand. Remember, as great as Benz is, there should be no excuses.

None!

boo20

MB is repsonding to market demand. When they were building cars "the old fashioned way" in the early ninties they were getting their butts kicked in the marketplace by the upstart Lexus. They were losing $600,000,000 a year doing it your way i.e., building cars without reagrd to price. Now they build cars to a certain price point and their quality has suffered. Nevertheless, as a business strategy, they have literally come back from the grave and, in spite of Lexus, have increased their sales and profits literally on a quarterly basis. This is a business. The goal is to make money. MB will decide in its own time (and may have already if rumors are true) when they need to go back to the "old way" of doing things. One thing is certain: the demise of MB has been greatly exagerated.

bluestar1

As I see it, you are simply trying to stir emotions with the inflamatory statements you make about Lexus and Toyota. No one can confuse a Toyota for a Lexus, except those who are deliberately being mischievous. Lexus came in 1990 and ate Mercedes' lunch. And that makes Merc fans unhappy. Add in the opposite direction to which Lexus and Mercedes are taking in car reliability and quality, and the albatross to which DCX hung around its neck (I refer to Chrysler Corp), and you can see Merc fan's frustrations. So people who own Mercs gotta find something to hang on to, and the only thing of last resort is the marqueness or heritage of the brand. What else is there to hang on to these days if you own a Mercedes ?

7G-tronic tranny may be innovative, but how about the innovation of a gas-electric hybrid car ? I suppose it doesn't register on Merc fans richter scale!!!

boo20

You said "No one can confuse a Toyota for a Lexus". Well as you know Toyota has them confused as well as the LS430 is marketed as the Toyota Celsior in Japan (and, I think, elsewhere in the world).

Anyway why would Lexus' success bother me? I'm trading in my '00 E class this year for an S class. I could go with Lexus if I wanted to but have not been convinced it is as good. It's not like I'm trying to justify a past purchase. I'm buying a new car and it won't be an LS430.

pablo_l

Mercedes as a luxury brand: if Lexus is Toyota, then MB is Chrysler and/or Smart. It is very myopic to claim Mercedes is more upscale when the fact is that they've been creeping downmarket, and making most of their money there, for over 20 years. No one can argue with the fact MB carries tradition, prestige and brand value, but to claim Lexus = Toyota is silly, because it misses the entire point of brand equity. It was a smart move by Totyota to separate the 2, and they've done so with tremendous success.

The fact is that consumers are suckers for perception and image. And this discussion prefectly illustrates how irrational such things are, and how silly arguments that are carried emotionally can get. I save the latter for my marriage. :-)

boo20

But, as I've pointed out, Lexus IS a Toyota. At least Toyota thinks so. Otherwise why would they market it as such in their home country?

Seems to me that Toyota is appealing to the snobbery of American car buyers by giving it a different name in this market.

How else to explain this?