Audi A4 2004 and earlier

varig

The Forester had been one of the vehicles under consideration when I began my new car quest. When I began researching cars to buy, one absolute criteria that I had was an all-wheel-drive system. I've had both RWD and FWD, and although FWD is OK in inclement weather, I wanted to have the peace of mind in knowing that I've done everything that I could to ensure a safe ride to my destination. Knowing I wanted AWD cut the list of vehicles to look at down sharply. I knew I did not want a part-time system like the Honda CRV or a 4WD (ie. Jeep). Subaru was the first car company I seriously looked at. Since this would be primarily a commuter ca, I felt that Subaru offered what I was looking for, namely value, AWD, and a reputation for reliability. I test drove both the Manual and Automatic versions of the Forester. I was not impressed with the Imprezas and the Outbacks were a bit pricey. I liked the ride height of the Forester and the ample glass for improved visibility. Although I only drove it once, I felt as if the Automatic drove smoother than the manual, although I really prefer the versatility of a MT. The Forester was "OK", but it still ran a bit rough for me. Perhaps it was because it was new and now broken in yet, but I could not get away from the feeling that I had an "upgrade" after getting back into my old car, which still runs smooth as a sewing machine.

So then I thought, what the heck, I'll visit the Audi dealer and check out the A4 just for fun. Big Mistake. I never should have gotten behind the wheel of that 1.8T Q Sport. I wasn't 1/2 mile from the dealership before I began fantasizing that this car could be mine. The engine was smooth, the interior was refined, I loved the sound of the turbo spooling. The only outstanding negative was that the rear seat room. That's when my "torment" really began.

Had I not driven the Audi, I would have been perfectly satisfied with the Forester. The price difference between the Forester and Audi was $6K, not including the ~1K I'd have to spend for rims and tires for winter use. I talked myself into the Forester, but then backed out of the deal because I still had the A4 in my mind. So I decided to wait until the 2002 came out (more rear seat room). The 2002 should be in the showroom in Sept/Oct.

I am willing to spend the extra for an Audi because it is 1. a nicer car 2. has more safety features than the Subaru, but some postings that I have read that question the long term reliability of Audis is making me reluctant to take the final plunge. I know that folks that have bad experiences are sometimes more vocal than those who have had no problems, but statements like "sell it before the warranty is up or you'll regret it" give me an uneasy feeling.

So I looked at Subaru again. Test drove another Forester (it's been about a year since my last test drive), and the impression that it drives rough is still there. Now the WRX is available. Liked the price and the HP (wow!), but it does not have curtain airbags nor ESP, not to mention no moonroof. At this point I wonder if I allow myself to be initially seduced by the WRX's increased HP and lower cost, if , after time , I will regret not having the refinement of the A4.

Thanks for giving me the therapeutic outlet to share my car-buying torment.

scirocco22

D.J.-- Now that I own both cars, I can agree (as I've said numerous times before) that the A4 has just has that certain "character." IMHO, yes, you're making the right decision by going with the A4. As for the WRX, as I stated a few posts back, it just has that Japanese econo-car atmosphere ...powerful, yes, but as you said, not as refined as the A4.

Remember, there are many Audi and VW owners who put over 150,000 miles on their cars without any major problems. It's just when you are in need of major repairs, they tend to cost more than with either a domestic or Japanese car. And the ~chances~ of getting a "bad" one or a lemon are greater than it would be with a Japanese car. But that's the trade-off ...you have to put some type of a price on that refinement and the smile that you have on your face as you drive to work every morning!

So if you can afford it, buy the A4! ...if you are tight on funds and/or are looking for economy down-the-line, then strongly consider one of the Subarus. But it is just my $0.02.

--'rocco

keninplacitas

Yeah Rocco, I bought a new '98 Forester a few years ago. I think they've refined them a bit since then. Also, I think I got a car that was built late on Friday when the assembly line folks were just trying to get out and get home. I don't know about now, but the all-wheel drive systems were different for the manual and the auto. My complaints with my car were as follows:
(1) First the rear viscous coupling and then the right front coupling started to 'shudder' when I shifted gears. The service department was no help at all. (2) The antenna had to be 'unscrewed' when I went to the car wash. At first, there was no little wrench provided. Then they got me one but it was too large and it tried to wear the edges off the hex part of the antenna. Ultimately, they got me one that was the right size. (3) The engine sounded like it was borrowed from a large lawnmower (I understand there is better sound insulation now). (4) By the time I got 18,000 miles on the car, it no longer felt 'new'. Everything about it had loosened up and it no longer had that 'tight' feeling to it (maybe I expect too much and am spoiled by Saabs and Audis). There's more but I choose to not dwell on the subject.

What impressed most about it was the way it climbed our local mountain through mud, gravel, and snow. The only other vehicles I saw up there on that road were snowmobiles and a family out for a drive in their Subaru Outback.

Oh, by the way, there is a very nice, inexpensive option, a compartmentalized insert for the cargo area. If you transport groceries, etc., I highly recommend it.

lauk0dg

When I was shopping around for cars I also looked at these 2 labels (in addition to BMW). I guess I made a big mistake driving the Subaru after driving the German cars cuz Subaru just feels way out of line from the germans. Hey, I can understand they're not really at the same level so it's unfair to Subaru. That said, I'd still take the Audi for its refinement and value over Subaru, based on its class, engineering achievement, and value. Can't beat that when you compare German cars.

Oh by the way, yes the Subaru's still have different AWD systems in the auto and in the manual cars.

Billy

nitpicker

I think it's really interesting that quite a few of us have either owned Foresters and A4s or have considered getting one or the other (or both), even though they're different kinds of vehicles. Yeah, the AWD factor is a key consideration, but we've still ruled out other AWD vehicles.

As I've mentioned before on these posts, I was on the verge of buying a Forester S/Premium package when I test-drove an A4 1.8T. That's the first time I've ever driven a vehicle and then not been able to get to sleep 'cause I kept thinking about it. Although I'd researched both vehicles extensively, the Forester seemed like the more practical choice. So this decision came down to head vs. heart -- and heart won. So far, no regrets....

brave1heart

"...here we all chose to purchase A4s although many of us would prefer to have a BMW..." ?!?

My wife prefers her '01 A4 1.8T Q to my '01 325i. Very similarly equipped, the A4 was 4 grand cheaper + she thinks it is more luxurious and more refined (quieter, softer). It all depends on what you like. If you really like the 325i better, though, the 4-grand difference should not stop you - it will likely hold up its value better over time, so it may end up costing you the same. I really like both cars a lot but the 325i inspires me more, especially with the sport package and when pushed hard.

amr3

'rocco,
Thanks. I've decided to do some due diligence and price out the Audi 1.8 and also a BMW.
Any recommendations for a dealer in MA. Thanks...

keninplacitas

IMHO, BMWs are definitely the best fair/moderate weather driving cars in the <40K price range. The engineering and balance can't be beat. If you drive one, I see you as one who really loves to 'DRIVE'. There is, though, a kind of a stigma associated with BMW. When you're driving one, it's often perceived by others that you're trying to flaunt the fact that you're an ambitious, hard driving individual (Yuppie) who someday will be driving a Mazzeratti, Ferrari or Lamborghini. Those who buy Audi seem to want that same engineering excellence with maybe just a bit more practicality built in. We, too, enjoy the thrill of driving those fun curving roads in a car that can do it with flair; but that's usually not the prime driving force behind our purchase. I think the perception by others of the Audi driver is that he or she loves the experience of driving, appreciates fine engineering and quality, but prefers to say it in a quiet and subtle way.

scirocco22

amr3-- ...yeah, as I meant to say earlier, with BMW's it's almost mandatory (in my area, anyway) that you order the car for the dealers here don't keep much inventory on their lots. Audi dealers tend to keep more inventory so a lot of times you'd be able to find a car that comes pretty close to how you may want your car equipped. But as you know, A4's are at the end of their model year with a big change coming for the new 2002 model. Dealers will not have much inventory on hand for several months after introduction for people are already "filling" spots on the dealer's allocation lists around the country with either special orders or "putting dibs" on the cars that are scheduled to be allotted to the dealers for their stock. See Ken's post #1643 (sorry, Ken ) or go check over on AudiWorld or VWVortex for other illustrations of this new model phenonena as it pertains to trying to buy your own 2002 model at or near its introduction. Audi dealers, from what I'm hearing, are making some pretty good deals on remaining 2001.5 A4 2.8 models as well as on certain models of the A6. IMO, you'll still have a more difficult time getting a BMW dealer to budge as much on price as you'd have with an Audi dealer. As for recommending a dealer, I'm at the opposite end of the country from you so I can't comment but Christo (brave1heart) I believe is located in MA so maybe if he catches this thread, he can possibly comment. Continued good luck in your decision.

Christo-- I read both your posts (#137 and #209, I'd add the link but I'm hesitant to do so without first asking your permission) on the "What is this "BMW Thing?" forum. What an inspirational testament to the whole car ownership experience! ...not just a sales spiel for BMW necessarily but a true assesment to what "owning" (if that really is the right term) a vehicle is all about. As Karen referred to making a decision with her heart, so is the whole aspect of becoming one with your vehicle ...almost a love affair with that vehicle that truly meets the needs you're looking for. So with that said, yes, I someday hope to become a BMW owner. At the time I bought my A4, it was at the very top of the price range I wanted to spend at that time (my limit was about the $30k range) and as I've said before, the 1.8t A4 represented a value that I couldn't pass up. I priced a similarly equipped 3-Series and it would have been around $6,000 more... much more than I wanted to pay at this/that point. I believe Billy was in a similar situation. You did catch my error though: I shouldn't have said "...although many of us would prefer to have a BMW if it represented a better value." You're right, a 3-Series BMW represents a tremendous value because of all the reasons you listed but we all have to draw a line on how much we want to spend on a particular purchase. I had the line drawn at $30k and the 3-Series just didn't fit *sobs uncontrollably* --so I went with the A4 1.8t which was hard to pass up because of the value IT represented and haven't regretted it (yet)!! Thanks for posting!

Karen-- When I drove the Forester today, I noticed that it had quite a drivetrain lash. This is something that is quite typical in a "lower priced" vehicle... something that I probably wouldn't have even noticed because I've always owned "lower priced" vehicles *lol* ...but with the A4, when I let up (all the way) or press down (from the top) on the accelerator, it seems as smooth as silk. Yes, my heart is telling me that I'm loving this vehicle more as the days pass by!

Billy-- I checked on the light switch and when the ignition is off the dash lights, parking lights and tail lights are still lit. So don't forget to turn the light switch off when leaving your car in the parking lot on some foggy morning because when you come back to it after work, you might possibly still have a dead battery.

Ken-- *groans* yes, please DON'T dwell on that subject *lol* ...gee, that's quite a discouraging story And I'll look into that cargo tray; thanks! Oh, back to the side dimming mirrors: I must not have as sensitive eyes as most people because I think I'm the only one that doesn't like the auto-dimming side mirrors. Headlights in the side mirrors don't seem to bother me at all. Especially at dusk, I just can't seem to see enough detail in the dimmed mirrors to make it safe.

--'rocco

scirocco22

Ken-- Beautifully summarized! I agree wholeheartedly! Probably another reason I'd still look at the Audi line when I'm ready to "move up."

--'rocco

lauk0dg

hehe scirocco, you're right. The lights don't turn off by themselves after you turn the ignition off, BUT if you arm the car right away, it turns off all the lights. Well, at least the exterior lights. See if yours is the same as mine.

Yeah I was in the same situation.....BMW 325ci vs A4 1.8T. It was tough to pass on the 3-series. Looks awesome (the 2 door one, I don't fancy the 4-door one, but that's just my opinion), the IMAGE thing (there we go again), and my dream of owning a BMW. See, people will tend to believe if you tell them BMW involves themselves in professional racing teams, but people usually laugh when you say Audi does the same thing. Sorry for those people, but Audi took almost all the top spots on the Le Mans series. OK those are not the same leagues they compete in, but you get the picture. Anyhow I was comparing the 325ci and the A4 1.8T and the same equipped car costs more than $6k in the 325ci than the 1.8T, sans AWD on the BMW. The included maintenance is also longer in the Audi case. The interior is much much better in the Audi than the BMW. That said, the BMW is definitely for THE driver. It's fun throwing the coupe around the curves when I test drove it, but let's face it, how often do you do that in normal driving. Plus the comfort of AWD in the Audi seals the deal. RWD equals suicide in Chicago in the winter. OK some of my coworkers who own BMW's got snow tires and 200lbs of sand in the trunk and they can get away, but LOL I've seen so many BMW's got stranded in only 2 inches of snow. Talking about driving excitement.

Billy

scirocco22

Billy-- I just tried it... didn't work! Is that something you had programmed in when you had that guy reprogram your locks with the VAG tool? That would be an excellent feature!

Just noticed something: the new car smell in the A4 is MUCH more elegant (sheesh) than it is in the Forester! *lol*

btw everyone: Markincincinnati and bruce35 also have an interesting discussion going over on the A6 board that also has to do with Audi vs BMW and A4/S4. Also, there is a thread/forum going in the Smart Shopper section that discusses the realiability of the A4 vs 3-Series for those whom haven't noticed. Start here: jjao "more reliable? A4 or BMW 3-series?" Jun 5, 2001 9:12am

--'rocco

brave1heart

amr3 - We ordered both the A4 1.8T Q (a.k.a Happy) and the 325i (a.k.a The Shtroumpf). We bought the A4 at Claire Motors for $1,200 over invoice. I got the 325i at BMW Peabody for $1,300 off, which equated to about $2,000 over invoice (plus free mats, wheel locks, T-shirt, 5.9% financing and more). I shopped around well for both cars and these were the best deals I could get back in February. I think you should be able to get the A4 for just a little over invoice now that the new model is around the corner. Our two cars are similarly equipped and the 325i came up to 4 grand more. The 325i has the sport package, the A4 has the Quattro.

'rocco -You don't need permission from me about anything - it's a free world out here. Go ahead and post the link if you think anyone would be interested. Adhering to financial goals and budgets is very important. See, I've wanted a 3-series and I have been able to afford one for a few years but I thought that the 328 loaded the way I wanted it was too expensive (around $38K last time I checked). Then the 323 came out very reasonably priced but I was already driving a VR6 and did not want to buy a car that was a lot more expensive with less ponies, especially knowing that the 325 was right around the corner. When the 325 came out, they were so hot, I could not get a deal better than $700 off MSRP in the fall. I waited patiently till the Spring and then I got $1,300 off plus about $1,400 in savings from the mid-year model. You know, they're right when they say that good things come to those who wait. The way I look at it, I'm only 32 - I have many more years to upgrade to better cars. I like to see a gradation of better cars in my life. Just because I can go spend all my money and buy an M3, that doesn't mean I'd go buy it now and have no means invested for my family's future. Maybe some day...Anyhow, when we took delivery of my wife's A4, I was so blown away by its performance that I was tempted to go order one for myself too. I mean, I took it 90 mph in pouring rain and this car is rock-solid. You only hear the puddles but you don't really feel them because of the Quattro. I think the A4 will be (has been) more reliable because it is at the end of its production cycle. It also comes better equipped, and it has the 4-th year maintenance free. Great fun car for the money!! We are planning on keeping it for good 10 years.

Just a note to all of you on image: drive what you really like and what your budget dictates without worrying that much about image. Happiness is in how you truly feel, not as much in how people perceive you. It takes some confidence but please don't let other people tell you what to drive. And there's nothing wrong with wanting to be young, driven and successful - as long as you remember to treat all other people with respect.

scirocco22

Christo-- Your message is fundamentally profound and is respectfully sound in its advice BUT image does play a part for many of us in choosing a vehicle. I agree that nobody should choose a vehicle to drive strictly on the perception of the "type" of individual that typically drives it but one can't simply ignore those perceptions whether they be subjectively positive or negative. It consciously or sub-consciously plays a role in the decision whether we like it or not. I have a very negative impression of what the typical BMW owner is like (no offense). Cognitively, I can rationalize that not all BMW owners are like this but never-the-less, if I were to become a BMW owner, I certainly wouldn't want others to think of me in this same manner. I'm not going to let this keep me from ultimately becoming a BMW owner but it still plays role and is a factor to consider when making a final decision. And although I agree with your final statement, sadly-to-say, many of those who are "wanting to be young, driven and successful," sometimes DON'T "treat all other people with respect." With all that said, it still won't keep me from considering to possibly purchase a BMW (whew! hope that all made some sense! *lol*)

For those of you who didn't get the chance to read brave1heart's excellent message on the true meaning of what elementally owning a car is about and why the BMW meets his needs, here is the link to the post: brave1heart "What is this "BMW Thing"?" Aug 3, 2001 9:58am

I've been interested in a BMW for years because of similar expressions from other owners but the concise eloquence and passion of that message is, IMHO, quite impressive to say the least!

--'rocco

ps: also a link to another of brave1heart's on the same forum: brave1heart "What is this "BMW Thing"?" Aug 5, 2001 12:08pm

lauk0dg

Now when I pass a BMW on the highway (spells: Y-E-A-H), I don't feel bad for not buying it instead of the A4. My girlfriend knows that I LOVE a BMW before I bought the A4, and she supported my decision to get the A4 and hoped that I can get over the fact that it's not a BMW. Well, me too. I'm glad to report that I got over it and started to like the Audi cars more than the BMW cars. I got psyched when I see an A8 or an S8 here in Chicago, but when I see a 750iL.....I'll be like, yeah whatever. That's good.

Yeah I also don't know the reliability of BMW cars. My buddy got a 318i and the car started to give him all the troubles from burnt out bulbs to the engine totally went out on him at around 18,000 miles. I understand sometimes it might be a "friday" production vehicle, and having owned an Accord with no problems whatsoever for 120k miles, my little conclusion is that, German cars are some awesome vehicles, but be prepared to pay extra for maintenance and repairs. I'm not saying I don't trust Audi's quality especially on a last-year model, but if it's giving me all these expensive maintenance bills, I have to let it go right after the free maintenance period and get a Japanese car. Easier to say than do, I dunno if I can actually go back and own a Japanese car.

On a side note, I think Audi is a car brand that not that many people are aware how affordable it can be with all the luxo stuff. People know a New Passat looks nice, but few know that a V6 GLX (with 4Motion) actually costs more than an A4 1.8T.

Funny thing, I found it easier to merge into traffic with the A4 than the Accord. Go figure.

keninplacitas

Let's face it:

1. We search for the best possible car that will squeeze into our budget.

2. We find the one that we really, really like, the one that 'turns us on', the one that fires us up emotionally, the one we will buy.

3. Then, to convince ourselves and others that we made the right choice, we develop a scenario that shows all the LOGICAL reasoning that went into the making of that final, critical, purchase decision.

laurasdada

Although the A4 was my first choice, (evil wife: "Sorry, it's too small for the family. Move on to your next choice!")I didn't buy one. However, I shopped and was treated fairly well at Claire on the Dedham/W. Roxbury line (Rte. 1, just after the Rte. 109/VFW Parkway intersection).
I'm looking forward to next year when (if evil wife doesn't change her mind!) I'll be shopping BMW 3, A4, X-type, C-class and maybe Infiniti G35?
Good luck and enjoy the shopping!

brave1heart

I too like the A8 and especially the S8 better than the 740. The S8 has class without mass - very elegant, yet masculine and a great performer. I've only seen one on the road and it looked like a lizard lounging in the sun with that low ground clearance and wide stance. Truly beautiful, classy, and powerful!!

A4 vs. Passat - other than the shared platform, there is little to compare. My wife spent < 1 min in the Passat but didn't want to leave the A4. They feel and drive very different and we noticed a big difference in build quality. In short, the Passat is the family car, the A4 is the sporty car.

Image revisited: All I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong with wanting to be young, driven, and successful. What, would you rather be a hippie? Not sure what kind of cars the really good people out there drive. Just judge people individually for what they are, it would be wiser and more fair. I have also seen a few younger BMW coupe owners in particular that would never make my list of friends but it's OK - there are good and bad people everywhere, why would the BMW community be entirely different? I like to think of BMW owners as alert and courteous drivers and I try to be like that myself. That's all I can do. The key thing that I'm saying is that I'd rather work toward improving BMW owners' image than not buying the car because I don't like some younger coupe owners.

Logical reasoning: yes, we all try that perception vs. reality thing. The closer you are to reality, the easier it is to maintain your perception or reality. Sometimes you can be far off from reality but still manage to maintain a differrent perception for a while. Perception is reality in your mind, at least up to a certain point. That's because reality does not exist in its pure form - it's reflected through our own perception. (not a philosophy major, just babbling )) All that matters is that you are happy and that you manage to make the people that you love happy. Whichever way you can achieve that AND sustain it.

keninplacitas

nitpicker

Ken and Rocco -- Didn't notice any shuddering or drivetrain lash in the Forester, but maybe that's because I was driving an automatic. There was nothing rough or jarring about it -- but then again, there was nothing really, really impressive about the drive, either. It seemed like a very solid performer but nothing very exciting.

Ken -- re. post #1665: I think you're right. And I think your point #3 explains why some of us spend so much time here!

Rocco -- Loved your comment about the new car smell (Forester vs. A4)! Thanks to my new 1.8T, the whole garage has that smell!

Christo -- You're right about the feel and drive of the Passat vs. the A4. I was surprised that they were so different. After test-driving the Passat 4Motion and thinking that it seemed really bland, I assumed I wasn't going to like the A4 w/ Quattro. Ha!!

Also: Amen to your comments on image/courtesy/etc. You've inspired me to queue up "Respect" on the A4's CD player!

Re. image -- I often assume that people driving "high-image" cars (Jag, Mercedes, BMW, Lexus) are a$$holes or people who desperately want social approval. I know that's an unfair generalization, but that's often my gut reaction.
Part of the appeal of the Forester to me was the "reverse snob" appeal. I realize that we all try to project a certain image in various ways (car, house, clothes, etc.), but I'd feel very uncomfortable driving a car that had a strong "snob" stigma. I think the A4 projects class/quality/sportiness in an understated way.

keninplacitas

Well folks, wish me luck. I just put a deposit down on a Silver 2002 A4 1.8T Quatro. No sports package this time but it has the sunroof, homelink with auto dimming mirrors (w/ built in compass yet), upgrade stereo, etc. Should cost about 28K and should arrive around the end of October or early November.

varig

I am curious how the BMW AWD system stacks up to Audi Quattro? What are the inherent advantanges/disadvantages of each system over the other?
Thanks.

scirocco22

Ken-- CONGRATULATIONS! I am sincerely excited for you! I can just imagine the feeling of being in your shoes. I'm sure you are experiencing many emotions right now ...but knowing how you feel about the new 2002, I'm sure they are all positive. I am so happy for you --even though it's not me, I still felt a sense of excitement in my soul when I read your post. Yeesh... I guess cars really do stir up deep emotions. To be one of the first owners of a new model at or close to its introduction has to create much anticipation and anxiousness.

So still no official announcement of MSRP? At 28k, it sounds like hardly any price increase from the old model. Did you just negotiate a price at a % over invoice? Are Xenon headlights standard now?

Yes, good luck, Ken! I hope there are no delays in the timeframe they gave you. That would be so frustrating. And try to keep any of those anxious feelings under control ...again, congratulations!

--'rocco

keninplacitas

Hi Rocco, my Audi dealer, Premier, didn't have much more information than what I noted in post # 1670. They don't have prices and they don't have specific details on the cars that have been allocated to them. The $28K is a guess based on similarly equip'd 2001s (with a few extra bucks buffered in). I plan to pay MSRP. I have no illusions with regard to negotiating price (I provided a refundable $1K to lock in the only 2002 1.8TQ left on their September build allocation - the only allocation they've received so far). Based on what I've read on the car, I expect it to be a brisk seller with minimal availability during the first few months following introduction.

Why the rush? I've just retired. I love to travel but hate to fly and want to purchase my final new car before driving my present car's milage up to where resale value is severely compromised. I can just barely justify the $$ differential between the two right now.

rwong1998

I posted a question a few weeks back wondering why the new 2002 A4 Quattro did not have the new CVT transmission. I found the answer in this Autoweek review of the new A6, apprently Audi is working on it but is is "years away" because they have to also develop a new driveline.

"Multitronic will become the standard automatic transmission for all non-quattro Audis with engines that produce less than 220 lb-ft. Audi engineers are working on a multitronic for quattro, but that is deemed years away by Reinhold Gesenhaus, manager of transmission development for Audi AG. Gesenhaus explained that to make the transmission work with quattro, an extra driveline needs to be incorporated into the system. A 3.0-liter A6 quattro is available with a six-speed manual transmission."

I could not post the specific link because it was more than 115 characters....you can find it by going to http://www.autoweek.com/ and going to the review of the Audi A6

scirocco22

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=reviews&loc_code=index&content_code=06820461

scirocco22

rich-- I guess you can post a long link without any text. I couldn't edit it, however.

Interesting article! Thanks for alerting us to it.

--'rocco

skeewb_4287

The '02 A4 looks so much better than the current one.(For pics, go to www.autoweek.com and click on the A4 link in the pics section) I've always wanted to like the A4 because it represented a rebellion against the ever so popular class-leading blah blah blah greatness of the #-series. The only thing holding me back was that the 3-series, C-class, et. al. all looked more substantial than the A4. Finally, with a redesign that brings it closer to its bigger brother, the A6, in appearance, I can finally enjoy the entire package offered by the A4, luxury, sport, substance, style-- all in a package costing thousands less than its competitors.

I guess Audi has it all wrapped up.

keninplacitas

Hey, check out the on-line AutoWeek article dated 8/9/01 on Audi's new A4 convertable - First a soft top, later a hard top. It's to be displayed in the September Frankfurt Auto Show. There's a picture of it that's causing me to drool all over my keyboard.

lauk0dg

for Audi to come up with a convertible. When's the last new one? With M-B ramming out the SLK 32 and BMW ramming out Z3's and 3-series convertibles, Audi got to do something.

skeewb, you must have forgotten to check out the interior pics of the new A4. It looks and shouts "PASSAT". The front end of the new A4 also looks extremely similar to the new Passats that are cruising on the roads now. At first I hated the rear end, but now I like it cuz it can set it apart from a Passat. With VW almost done with the next new Passat (the current one is just a refresh from the older Passats), I HOPE VW doesn't screw things up by doing the same thing as Toyota.....look at Lexus' ES300 and Toyota's Camry. The new Camry's look just like the ES300's. Must be hurting Lexus' sales of the ES300.

Billy

cjd2966

I love the A4 and am considering a '98 2.8 Q with 83000 miles. My gut feeling is that is too many miles. It has tiptronic trans. Any feedback is appreciated.

keninplacitas

Billy, hold your judgment. Pictures can often mislead. One 2002 A4 comment I read was that you have to see it in person. The pictures just don't do it justice.

Oh, by the way, for those trying to follow up on the AutoWeek convertible picture, I inadvertently came across it when searching through the archives under Audi A4. It wasn't there on the cover page.

nitpicker

After hearing me sing the praises of my new 1.8T, my parents are now in the market for a new car. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to convince them to get an A4 too. At this point they seem to have narrowed the choices to a Lexus ES300, Infiniti I30, and Acura TL (not S type). So I wanted to throw out a few questions to the group here:

Does anybody know what the cloth upholstery in the 2002 A4 will be like? My mother seems to prefer regular plush (cloth) upholstery -- doesn't much care for leatherette, leather, or the sporty cloth used in the 2001.5. Does cloth upholstery have to be ordered as an option in the 2002s?

Also, when you were narrowing down your choice of vehicles, did any of you seriously consider getting an ES300, I30, or TL? Why did you reject those choices and decide on an A4 instead?

Thanks!

Karen

tysalpha

Ken (and everyone else) here is another site that has more pictures of the A4 convertible.. apparently it's getting a different interior treatment (kind of TT/miata -ish):

http://www.audiworld.com/news/01/a4cab/

I'm excited.. now the question is.. pricing.

TysAlpha

mmcbride1

My wife has a 2000 I30. We drove them all (ES, I30, TL) and decided that the I30 gave us the most for our money. You can get an I30L pretty much loaded up (they don't offer many options) for $26-28k right now. We didn't like the looks or interior of the TL (although it's a great car, and my #2 choice in this group). The ES is nice, but it's pricey (plan on paying $35-37k for a 2002. A 2001 will still run you $33-35k, depending on options. If price was equal, it might have been a contender, but we got our I30 for $28k. I surely didn't think the ES was $5-7k better.

The ES/I30/TL cars are much different than the A4 and 325i. I'm not really sure where the C320 fits in because it's so expensive. The ES/I30/TL are more luxury-oriented and are bigger. The Bimmer and Audi are much more fun to drive and are smaller.

scirocco22

Hi Karen!-- You didn't really state why your parents didn't want to consider an Audi. I too am trying to talk my parents into buying an Audi but they've only had Hondas and Toyotas for almost the last 30 years. They now want to consider getting something with awd for they are at the age where it is a real hassle in the winter to chain up just to get up to their house (well, I don't know if it's age as much as it is that they're both starting to ail with physical and medical problems). So in a sedan, that leaves only Audis and Subarus to choose from. Because he's had so much luck reliability wise from Japanese brand cars, my dad thinks that Subaru definitely has the advantage in both reliability and bang-for-the-buck. I've been trying to convince them that they deserve at this point in their life, a luxury type vehicle (as they can well afford it). I'd like to see them in an A6 and think they could get quite a bargain on a 2001 model right now. My mom loves the idea but my dad just thinks that an Audi represents poor value, high maintenance and future reliability problems.

Okay, enough about my folks; what about yours? Sounds like they're hooked on Japanese cars also. What did they think of the A6? Do they need awd in the winter or doesn't that matter at all? Has your Mom looked at the leather interior in the A6? --I think it's gorgeous!

And you know what, Karen? --if any of those three cars you mentioned came with a manual transmission, I might have never even looked at an Audi. Even though my heart wanted to go back to a German car (and also as you already know, a car with a trip computer and a full set of integrated gauges), I'd probably have gone with one of those three mentioned because of their superior reliability and again, the bang-for-the-buck factor.

k, well that's my $0.02 *lol*

--'rocco

nitpicker

Guys, thanks for the feedback. I realize that the ES/I30/TL are bigger and less sporty than the A4, but I still think my folks might like the A4, especially the 2002 (because it's bigger).

They're looking for a sedan that offer safety, reliability, and a certain degree of comfort, plus FWD or AWD. They'll consider something in the $30k range, though they don't want to go much higher. They now have an '85 Cressida and a '00 Odyssey, though they'd consider something other than another Japanese vehicle. They seem to like my new A4, although Mom says the sport seats seem a bit too hard, and Dad keeps accidentally lowering the windows when he drives it. (I can't figure out why or how he manages to rest his arm so far forward.)

I thought about recommending an A6, but I have the impression that A4 reliability is better. What do you guys think? Mom does seem to prefer the kind of cushy cloth interior that their Cressida has. Any idea whether interior upholstery like that will be available in the new A4s?

I know I should maybe drop the whole idea of pushing them toward a new A4, but I'm so impressed with mine that I feel like running up to everybody who might be remotely considering a new car and saying: Hey! Have you considered an A4? They're great cars! You won't regret it!

Rocco, hope your mom prevails in convincing your dad that Audis are worth considering!

brave1heart

I noticed you got no response from either board, so I figured I'd give you my 2 cents. The Q transfers torque from side to side, the X does not. The X sends 2/3 of the power to the rear wheels and 1/3 to the front, while the Q sends the power 50/50. I think that transferring power from side to side is a big plus for aggressive cornering in ANY conditions (offset by the increased curb weight of the AWD system, of course), It all depends on how you're planning on using the car. Also, Audi's been making the Q for 2 decades successfully and has built its core reputation around it. BMW tried it in the late 80's but did not sell it well and the current X has not been on the market long enough. If AWD were your only consideration, my vote would go to the Audi. Undoubtedly.

scirocco22

Karen-- ...is that how Dad keeps lowering the windows?? hahahaha

heh, yah, it's coincidence that both of our parents are kind of in the same situation and looking for the same thing... and both Honda and Toyota people. My folks are also looking in the 30k range too so I'm having a difficult time convincing them to go with the A6 or even an A4 2.8. I've showed them pix of the new 2002 A4 and they really like its looks.

ooops, gotta run... I'll be back later

--'rocco

scirocco22

Karen-- ...anyway, what I wanted to say is that I showed my mom the interior of the new A4 by going to the Audi UK web-site, it's similar to our AoA site in that you can configure a vechicle to your own specs. Only the UK site shows a much larger picture of the interior. You choose which interior option you want shown and it shows the front seat area in a much larger image than on the AoA site. Now, I don't know if the same interiors are going to be available in the US/NA models but I have to assume that they'll be similar. I don't know if the US brochures are available in quantity yet or not. Maybe Ken knows. I think the 3.0 will be more appropriate for our parents but it's probably going to be priced (at least) in the mid 30's just as the 2.8 is now. Here's the link if you're interested; you'll have to navigate some because I tried to copy the specific page but it would not allow a transfer without first logging in: http://www.audi.co.uk/fy.jsp

Maybe we should have a contest: who will be the first that can talk their parents into a 2002 A4? *lol*

--'rocco

nitpicker

Hey, thanks -- great link! I like your idea of the contest too -- although I think I've got my work cut out for me!

BTW, I don't know why I even mentioned the A6 as one of the vehicles I wish they'd consider. As nice as it is, I know they don't want to spend that much. Like you, I wish my folks would splurge and do something really nice for themselves. You know, this has all the makings of a weird psychological study: Why do adult kids of Toyota/Honda parents reject their parents' choices and buy Audis, and why do the parents then reject their kids' choices and opt for something other than Audis? *lol*

Well, this will be interesting. Keep us posted!

lauk0dg

Well how about mentioning the availability of 4yr-50k included maintenance? That would be a peace of mind for the folks.

I was looking at the TL before getting the A4 since I drove an Accord and I am sold on Honda's reliability. Yup, too bad they don't have a manual, ALTHOUGH Acura is going to offer the manual tranny on TL's soon. It's going to be interesting. The TL is way too mushy for my taste and although it offers tons of equipment as standard, it doesn't have the "feel" a German automobile offers.

More interesting is the fact that the Nissan Altima is going to have 240hp V6 under the hood for 2002, while the Maxima will have 260hp. With leather and other stuff it's going to be pretty appealing. There's going to be a lot of choices out there. My opinion is, wait for another month till the 2002 models show up. Then test drive all of them and decide.

Of course if the folks want AWD, BMW is not the way to go. The BMW AWD system doesn't have 2 or more differentials so power can't be transferred to one corner of the car and keeps itself going. Audi and Subaru do. Actually if you are comparing the AWD systems between Audi and Subaru, Subaru got the better edge. Let's not get too technical here, hehe.

Billy

brave1heart

I know nothing about Subaru's AWD system. Is it really more sophisticated than Audi's?!?

BTW, the September issue of Automobile has a good write-up on the Altima. In short, they liked it. I personally would expect much better acceleration numbers from a 3,080 lbs car with 240 HP. They also mentioned that the 260-HP drives and feels like the Taurus SHO )

varig

Billy,
I was under the assumption that Quattro was the superior and more sophisticated AWD system. Since Quattro can transfer power to any single wheel whereas the Subie can only do front to rear and left to right in rear only (models with LSD), plus Audi having ESP, theoretically, Audi should be more surefooted. If I am incorrect in my thinking, please let me know.
Thanks

1intensea4

Just want to say that although Acura TL and CL type s is a powerful thing, but it doesn't have any character what-so-ever.

nitpicker

Good point about the warranty. Also good advice to wait for the 2002s and then compare, especially since my folks aren't crazy about anything they've seen or driven in the 2001s.

Last year, if I remember right, Edmunds sponsored a "test-drive event" in different cities. You could sign up to test-drive any number of vehicles all at the same location on the same day. Hey, Pat, anything like that in the works for 2001 or '02?

scirocco22

Ken, Billy, Tyson-- ok, my next car might just be an A4 Cabriolet! ...it IS sweet lookin'!

Christo, D.J., Billy, et al-- I'll have more to say about Subie awd vs quattro later. And also will now be able to give you first hand experience ...hmmm, when's the first snow due??

Mike L.-- I would tend to concur wholeheartedly!

Chris-- Yeah, I agree! ...that's an awfully high mileage vehicle. Although I'd have to believe that they are pretty easy highway miles.

Brannon-- So you think that the '02 looks THAT much better than the current model?? *sighs*

Billy-- I've been looking at pix of that new Altima for months now! At first I liked it and all the new features and drivetrain improvements but the more I see pictures of it the more I think it looks a bit Chevrolet-ish ...especially that rear deck and c-pillars.

--'rocco

scirocco22

Have you all read the Edmunds Road Test of 02 Aug 01 by Liz Kim titled Natural Aspirations on the Passat GLS 1.8T? I'd have never thought of suggesting to my parents that they consider a VW but read this article! One of the photos by Scott Jacobs is labeled "High-quality materials, nicely assembled. Now, do you really need that Audi?" The price of the loaded tested model is $25,675.

To quote some more from the article, here's a paragraph from the text: "And, showing that they do care about customer feedback, the Volks finally installed some useful cupholders, center-mounted dealies that hold the cup and its contents in place, instead of dainty but utterly useless pop-out plastic pieces that so raised the ire of sweetened fruit beverage-swilling autoweenies. All of these are part of one of the most aesthetically pleasing interiors in this price range, with a dual-toned dash composed of soft-touch plastics that match the rest of the high-quality materials of the cabin. And you bought an Audi A4 because...?"

Or how about this quotation: "Edmunds.com Says: This is the best midsize family sedan currently available; a Toyota Camry with personality."

Well, from what I hear, Karen, the Passat still doesn't have "plush" cloth seats for your mom (its standard interior has rather cheap velour that gathers hair and lint easily) and doesn't have 4-Motion with the 1.8T for my dad so maybe this isn't the best alternative for either of our parents but something to maybe consider.

--'rocco

p.s. If you haven't read the article: click here

nitpicker

Rocco, thanks -- I'll pass along the article and give them something else to think about! Interesting that you should mention the new Altima, BTW. It's gotten solid reviews. One cosmetic feature that I don't like about it is the grille badge; I think it looks cheap. And yes, I'm nitpicking. Nissa needs to come up with a more artistic badge/symbol.

lauk0dg

OK I found a website that provides AWD info....maybe more than you ever want to read:

http://www.eskimo.com/~eliot/awd.html

It covers all the different AWD and 4WD systems, friend or foe.

In Subaru's system, it uses viscous coupling and locking differentials. That translates to power being able to transfer to all wheels even when you are losing traction. Because of the viscous coupling, the wheel(s) that lose(s) traction won't spin excessively. In Audi's system, it uses a torsen center differential. Yes power can be transferred to one wheel, but not 100% of it. My view is, if you can get power to all wheels even when some of them lost traction, the moment when you gain traction on those, you can dig yourself out. In Audi's case, power needs to go around in the torsen to get to the wheels with grip the moment some other wheels gain traction. Make no mistake, either AWD vehicle is far more superior than 4WD vehicles which are actually 2WD vehicles and only transfers power to the other 2 wheels when wheel slip appears. Waste fuel and can't react at the same time and way as AWD vehicles.

By the way, for Audi Quattro systems, even if you don't have ESP, you actually have traction control system. It only activates at low speeds, i.e. when you are in trouble trying to dig yourself out from a mud pond, etc. You can read more of that in the URL link above. ESP saves you when you take a 90 degree turn at, say, double the speed limit. By braking individual wheels, it brings the vehicle back to the turning circle before your backend swings out, i.e. oversteering.

Of course you guys out there with both Subaru's and Audi's (read Scirocco and Nitpicker) can provide more insight as to how effective these systems work in real weather. Talk is cheap, reality is more important =>

Billy