Hello again everyone! Does anybody have any expeience good and or bad with APR or TAP and each of their Stage 1 chips? If so, please let me know what the experience has been like and if you would buy from them again. Thanks in advance for your help. Audibon
I originally thought the only difference in the seats between the 1.8 and 3.0 was leatherette vs leather. A closer look reveals the seats are actually different. The leather has more padded sections. Don't know if this translates into better confort or not. Anybody made a direct comparison?
I have experience with the MTM Stage1 chip -- can you say torque? Other than the fact that the first chip was defective (and was replaced at no charge of course), the chip was great!
James-- If you're still being cost conscious, remember that the brilliant black is $450 less than either silver or ebony. Of course, ebony will have a much richer look as it has a pearl effect. The pearl effect will give it just a very slight change in shade depending on lighting conditions and angle viewed as it has those little flicks of metallic embedded in the paint. Someone explained to me once the difference between metallic and pearl ...can someone again describe the difference definitively?
Yep, picked it up yesterday. Great experience all around. No extra charges, everything was in order, they beat my online loan rate by 0.2%, and they didn't even mention any additional items such as extended warranties.
Would someone please advise me as to what would be considered a reasonable deposit on an order for a 2002 A4 3.0. Either a flat amount or expressed in percentage of presumed cost price would be adequate. Many thanks in advance.
"Spare ECU"(you swap the entire silver metal container with your stock one) and "Socketed"(your stock ECU is opened, the stock chip desoldered and a socket is installed which allows you to remove the aftermarket chip and reinsert the stock chip or send the aftermarket chip out for new coding)
Possible problems with chips:
Chip MAY or MAY NOT void warrenty depending on dealer.
Chip MAY or MAY NOT lower the life of the engine
Chip could possibly damage turbo.
Chip could cause pinging(detonation) in high heat or with poor fuel(91 octane or less)
Advantages to chipping:
Less turbo lag
More horsepower and torque
Better acceleration
Better gas milage
Some chips can smooth out jerkiness or lag problems
YOU GO FAST!
Brand names:
TAP, APR, Garrett, Neuspeed, AMS, MTM/Hoppen, Wetterauer, Autothority and probably more that I don't know of or am forgetting.
Helpful links to learn more about turbos or these fine companies:
Had a bit of time on my hands yesterday. I'm a few months away from purchasing a car, and I've been lurking on this board for a few weeks.
So i decided I had to go check out the 2002 A4. I am keen to go back to manual cars (after 3 years with a sluchbox). I've driven a friends Tiptronic, and it does not feel like a true manual! (no offense to tip owners)
Had a really good experience, regarding the way I was treated at the dealership. When I mentioned I was about 2-3 months away from apurchasing decision, the salesman pulled out a non-demo, spanking new (11 miles) A4, 1.8, Q, manual in denim blue, off the showroom floor (had no others similarly equipped on the lot). It also had the 16 inch wheels and sunroof, no other upgrades. Handed me the keys and told me to be back by closing time - about an hour away!
The car drives really well. I test drove the Subaru WRX Impreza last weekend, and there is a world of difference in how the two feel! Sure, the WRX is sportier, and a tiny bit more powerful and tossable, but the A4 is way better as a daily driver, with a comfortable drive, solid feel on the road and more than enough power!
Just thought I'd write this and mention how jealous I am of all ouy 1.8T, A4 owners. I may be joining your ranks in a few months, though!
Just curious, I'm not to keen on getting any of the extra options - sunroof, 16 inch wheels etc. How do having (or not having) options affect resale value, say 4-5 years down the line? And do you think the slightly lower profile 16 inch wheels make much of a difference in handling? I did notice that the 16 inch wheels were Michelin Pilots, while the 15's on other cars were Pirellis, or Continentals, and the 17s were mostly Continental. I don't want the sport package, but if 16 inch wheels improve the handling somewhat over 15's, I may be able to justify the price! Oh - the base sounds system is quite good, and I don't think the price for the upgrade is justified (I sat in one just to listn to the sound, after my LONG test drive)
I ordered a 1.8TQ...$500 on Visa - but dealer never bothered charging it - of course I have to wait 2 months to get it!....but only paid $860 over invoice.
My wife and I change cars pretty often, so I've had many different color cars. We also live in the northeast, so we have to contend with weather - which makes an enormous impact on color choice. Allow me to express some opinions on color choice.
White, Silver, light mettalics: Very nice when clean, but can be dull. (I don't think any of these would be dull on an A4). Audi pearl white is awesome, but the wensite lists it as a (sit down for this) $1,200 option! Maybe that is a misprint. We have a white Caraven, and it does not show dust. It also looks better dirty than any dark car I have owned. I can go three times as long without a wash (until brake dust builds up), as I can with my dark green Maxima. For my family car,...I would always pick one of these colors. Silver is a classic sports car color, with good resale value. One last thing - road tar and everything else that sticks to the lower fenders shows up - after one winter, some of the staining will be permanent. I can live with this on my minivan.
Black: Awesome when clean, which is about one hour at a time. Depending where you live, and how windy it is, it will look dusty before you finish drying it. Very hard to wax - shows every hand swirl. Hard to wash in the sun, or the summer generally, because it drys so fast. Very hot in the summer - affects the AC. I've had three black cars - two I inherited or married. I'll never buy another. I think the non-metallic black looks classier, and holds up better to age and weather.
Dark metallics: I currently have a dark green Maxima. It is so dark, when I get tickets, the cops write "black". It might as well be black, as all of the disadvantages of black exist. I've also had a dark blue metallic - ditto above. As I said above, I prefer the non-metallics, because they age better. Metallics do have a "depth" that can be stunning when new. Metallics are a $450.00+ option on most German cars.
Red, Yellow, etc.: These are my favorites - but I like cars that really scream. These are non-metallic, and I think the best weather, maintenance, appearance compromise. I've never had a yellow car, but I've had red, and it glowed like the sun! I got so many compliments on that car. Red has great resale value (I would think yellow does too in a sport sedan). Sadly, I don't think Audi offers these colors in the 2002 A4 any longer. Their red is a dark metallic, not true red. Red does attract attention - more tickets. If you want to fly low under the radar - figuratively as well as literally, these are not your color. My next car will definitely be red, though - flying low is not my priority.
Final word - of the colors you've suggested - go silver. It will be a classic, and easy to take care of to boot. Unless you want to save the money and go non-metallic.
So then it stands to reason that you must think the S4 is just "a tiny bit more powerful and tossable" than the A4. This is not to dissuade you from your potential A4 (great car, BTW)purchase just to bring to light the obvious downplay in the comment of your WRX impression.:-)
Stephen-- *lol* at least he didn't post his opinion on the WRX forum! :P
Ryan-- yep ...not a misprint, Pearlescent White is-in-fact a $1,200 option. And I've had 6 cars with metallic silver paint, one of them being my beloved Scirocco, and never have I had permanent discolorization or staining stemming from winter elements. The VW silver metallic was one of the best paint jobs I've had on a car (very chip- resistant and looked almost new even after 10 years with very little maintenance) and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the Audi silver will hold up similarly.
Kelly-- Congratulations! If you live or work on the Eastside, that'll be me in the "old" silver A4 drooling as we pass one another. :P
Barrier is telling me within 2 weeks! I work on the eastside, so....if on some random day you see a sweet looking dolphin gray A4 go whizzing by you with 2 cop cars in pursuit...just think of me!
but first, i'd have to pry it out of the hands of my wife. Of all people, she's starting to get excited about having a new car.
Anyone know if the black trim that outlines the windows in the 1.8T can be replaced with chrome trim like it has in the 3.0?
I found someone at work who bought an Audi from this dealer in NJ (Jack Daniels)...and I was able to "bond" with the owner - both know a mutual friend, both marathoners, etc......pays to network. Ask a friend who has an Audi, find out the sales person and goto him/her...you might get a better deal....plus I was willing to walk and had comparison shopped....but I still have to wait 2 months!
Dunno if it's because I got 3 people in the car (self, friend, dealer who weighs about 250lb), or if it's because with all the structural reinforcements that made the car heavier (it's really heavier), but the engine response is weaker than our "old" A4's. It might be also because the 02 got only 100 miles and mine is totally broken in at 11,750 miles. Friend was at first skeptical because he has a Type R Integra, saying it got 195hp. Then I put him in a 01 TT 225Q and he's simply blown away. Dealer even offered $35,500 for a sticker price of $39,300, which means only $400 over invoice!!! The dealer, however, will only offer $29,750 for the 02 A4 with a MSRP of $30,550, which I think it's about $2,000 over invoice. The dealer is in Ithaca, NY.
Just a word - you probably won't get as good a deal as I got since I do know the owner - and in fact since I haven't closed - I will be most unhappy if my deal falls thru....ie. please don't screw me. My reco is to print off some of these emails and bring them to your local dealer - remember that for 4 years you'll need maintenance, so a relationship with a local dealer is important.
The MTM stage one chip raised horsepower by about 10% but raised torque by almost 50% -- but the torque came on at a higher RPM -- therefore, in contrast to the above posting pertaining to torque and turbo lag -- I would say that stock Audi turbos have nearly imperceptable lag, but that the chipped (MTM) 1.8T appeared to have lag. And here is why: the torque came on at some 800 RPM's higher (approximately, this is from memory) than the factory torque which is something below 2000 (1850?) -- yet the torque with the chip was prodigious but didn't really start to crank until a higher rev count.
The perception therefore was of rapid acceleration for a moment and a half followed by a huge RUSH and a tach needle that could reach redline in the blink of an eye.
In my experience this is what I would call turbo lag. It was not a problem, mind you -- but it did come on in such a rush after the initial few yards of forward momentum to be quite noticable.
The stock 1.8T was much more of a smooth and rapid progression -- instead of a jump start and steady progression.
A stage one chipped 1.8T (with no other modifications) was noticably quicker and more fun, but hardly without lag (again this was with the MTM chip, which I chose because it appeared to have the least noticable turbo lag on paper).
This is in no way meant to discourage you from chipping (and I agree with the above posts plusses and minuses generally speaking). I do not think I could comfortably go to a stage two or three as the amount of plumbing involved would -- one would imagine -- have to cause some sort of warranty issues. I had no issues and I had my chip installed by my dealer.
Hoppen "claimed" the chip in and of itself would not cause any warranty concerns -- which was true. I replaced the car with the chip with a 225HP 1.8T engined TT and have not chipped it, as it seems just fine the way that it is -- but even it does not have the "urge" of the 1.8T chipped motor.
I was referring more to white than silver. I should have been clearer: when I said "permanent", I just meant that it would be more trouble to remove than it is worth. My white car is after all, a minivan, and I don't have the time to wash cars that I used to have. With dark colors, you don't even see that stuff.
I love silver. I had a silver RX-7 in college, and it was beautiful. You're obviously like me, when you find something that fits your personal style, you stick with it. Thats why, after this next purchase, I think I'll have a red car for the foreseeable future.
ps: I think chip resistance is more a function of hood, grille, and windshield aerodynamics than paint quality. Just my opinion, though.
Has anyone purchased a 2002 with the new transmission? I was looking for some opinions on it. I live in Houston so quattro is not a necessity and the $1750 could be spent elsewhere.
Billy, I test drove one too with four people in the car including the saleperson. It was a manual Quattro with moonroof, convenience package, and had only 100 or so miles on it. Dolphin grey, very gorgeous. I could feel the rush but my friends felt that it was not accelerating as fast as they would like. Maybe the break-in issue plays a part in this. I was flooring the thing pretty hard and shifting at around 5K to 6K rpm most of the time from 1-2-3. It was pretty fun I have to admit but I didn't want to have too much fun with it because it was only a test drive and three other lives was on the line...haha. The one I drove was priced at 29.5K MSRP. They didn't seem to want to even knock a buck off their MSRPs on the new A4.
Rocco, thanks you for your help on this. I think I am going to test drive the 325i and decide for myself. But at this point I am still leaning toward the A4. Like you said, the dealer only orders with Quattro. It was a relatively short test drive and I would want to test drive the A4 one or two more times just to get a better feel for it before I could make a decision.
This is more of a general question. Where can I find information about turbo engines? I couldn't easily find it thru the search engines.
Don't have much time on my hands, but did a quick search on turbo basics for ya. Here is a link that explains how a common turbo works and how the 3000GT turbo works.....good start to understand how a turbo works:
Good point. :-) Actually, we were having too much fun the last couple o'days vigorously debating the pros/cons of an auto. WRX vs manual. Had to pop over here for a breather. :-)
Finding more than one or two FWD Audi's (exception there were a few more FWD TT roadster's) at a Cincinnati dealership is fairly uncommon. It seems that the FWD's are going to the VW dealerships in the form of Passats -- they generally only have one or two 4Motion Passats.
The salesperson -- not the owner -- that I deal with at the local Audi store claimed that they ordered almost no FWD Audis and that many of the few FWD's they do get in are customer special orders.
And, without any intention of being a smart alec, what does living in Texas have to do with "not needing quattro?" One of my best friends lives in Dallas and he claims you need quattro there, but not heated seats (which are rare in TX). My experience has been that quattro is a performance item not just a foul weather technology -- although I do grant that it is that. My Dallas buddy says that quattro improves the car in handling in the dry and in the wet (and I can attest in the snow, too). But his love of quattro is not based first and foremost on bad weather traction -- it is based on performance.
Now, I am not -- IN ANY WAY -- suggesting that I think a front wheel drive Audi is not a good car, it is -- I am suggesting that the reason people love the quattro system is many fold and that most folks talk about quattro because of its racing and performance heritage.
Mark-- Do you think that with the introduction of the new CVT that FWD A4s will show up now in traditionally non-FWD regions such as here in the PNW? Evidently, we here are in a similar situation as Cincinnati in that a dealership's representative did tell one once that FrontTraks were never allocated to dealers in this area and that if a customer wanted to special order one, then they'd accommodate them on an individual basis. I believe that someone here in the NW did report that a dealer had one of the new 2002s on order to be used as a demo. I'd have to believe that Audi would now be allocating FrontTraks to all regions because of the fact of the new CVT ...I hope, anyway.
Stephen-- Yeah! I was observing that lively discussion that you folks on the WRX board were having over there! It's good to see you, though, over here on the A4 forum. I still haven't had time to do anything yet to the Forester ...just been too busy --posting on these forums *lol* I just got into a little disagreement with Paisan on the Forester board and it just goes to show what I was telling you before ...I shouldn't be posting over there because it's so difficult to express an opinion or give advice if you're not "part of the Crew."
Vince-- My Audi salesman did tell me the same thing ...that Portland area dealers did not want to discount A4s at all. That was the reason he gave in telling me that he works with an auto broker down there so at least Portland folks can get a little bit of a discount rather than paying MSRP at the dealer. Like I said, if you want me to give you his name so that you can cut out the "middle-man" broker, let me know. As for Bimmers in general, I love 'em but don't really like the snob image that they portray. Audis, for some reason, don't give off that same image to the general public.
Ryan-- Ah, I understand. I had a white pick-up once and remember those tar stains, etc. And I believe you're right ...it has more to do with styling aerodynamics than paint quality but I do remember going down the freeway in that Scirocco and having a stone hit somewhere on the edge of the hood with what seemed like tremendous velocity and when I got out to look for the damage, it hardly showed at all. Needless to say, I was impressed. I think those were the days when they still used lead in the painting process, though. I believe that nowadays, paints in todays cars are now "softer" because of it.
Billy-- You considering trading in your "old" car??? And see, when you have refer to our cars as "old" it just makes us feel like second class citizens now :-P ...I still think "classic" would be a classier description. hahahaa, well, wait, I know, that doesn't quite sound right either. *tsk*
Rocco, I see what you are saying about the snob image issue altho I don't feel that way as strong as you do. At this point, I just want to get a feel for the 325i and see which one suits my likings. Like i said, I am still leaning toward the A4. I might just get a 3.0QM if I get a good deal from your broker. Yesterday I could have tried out the 325xi but the only one they had was wrecked in the test drive earlier during the day. The saleperson showing me the damaged 325xi said that it slipped out of a left turn on some wet leaves and sliding to the curb hard. That tells a little bit about the BMW all-wheel-drive system if the saleperson was telling the truth.
Audiworld.com just posted a good article on the CVT. It talks about soon having it on the Quatro, the possibility of setting your own shift points using the trip computer (in the possible future), and lots of other interesting stuff.
You know, you read so much stuff about this technology or that feature or this model etc -- it is hard to know what to believe.
I would assume that Audi would have brought the CVT out on the higher HP / torque engines if it could have -- which is not to say they will not soon. I do not know. But, in article after article about the ZF "tiptronic" 6spd (which with BMW's programming is currently on their flagship 7 series and will reportedly be available on the Audi A8 series) it is claimed that this transmission is 44 pounds or kg lighter than the 5spd and can handle in "normal" configuration about 400 foot pounds of torque -- the CVT is a long way from being able to do that.
So, while the CVT may be a great technological achievement for Audi, it would appear that several things are working against it for the upcoming models:
1. It "feels" different, odd perhaps (read the Car and Driver article) 2. It can't (yet) be used in the highest performance cars that [Audi] has "in the wings." 3. The 6spd tip accomplishes much of the same thing the CVT does, for example, it keeps the engine in its "sweet spot" most of the time, is more economical than its predecessor automatics and can improve the quickness of even the smaller engined (1.8T perhaps) cars that it will inevitably be offered in. 4. It apparently is more economical to produce
On the other hand, never having driven one, I am curious and anxious to drive a CVT A4 (especially the 3.0). Yet, it is a rare day when the dealers here in Cincinnati have FWD Audis of any ilk.
I had thought, based on the CVT press release (until I found out it was FWD only) that a CVT with an Audi V8 or Turbo engine of some kind [on a quattro] would be a technological tour de force -- alas, at this point in time, it is not to be.
Audi appears to be "determined" to stamp out the manual transmission (or perhaps it is just Audi of America that appears to be doing this). Evidence in Cincinnati is that the majority of the 2002 S4's are coming in as 5spd tips.
Billy: Nice to see you "survived" another test drive without any tickets! I believe your friend suffers from Hondaitis... I am a fan of Honda's myself (had 2 Accord's prior to the A4) but we all know it takes a lot of work with that manual to get the most out of one. The Company and its Acura division keep touting the S2000 and the new RSX by pushing the hp numbers in its advertising. We know as A4 owners that what you feel first is torque not hp. So, the tale of the tape: S2000-240hp@8300 and 155lbft@7500. New RSX-200hp@7400 and 142lbft@6000. The TT you drove has 225hp@5900 and 207lbft@2200! I'd take the TT over the other two cars just to have all that torque available at so low an rpm. The other 2 don't even touch an A4 in terms of peak torque! Honda has always made rev happy engines and Audi takes a different approach with its undersquare design and good bottom end. Haven't driven that TT yet but imagine it would be a rush. Flying low under the radar. Brian
I like visting the A4 board. I like the A4, in fact, I actually warmed up to the new style after seeing one in person at the Seattle Autoshow. There seems to be well-informed group here that also respects diverse opinions unlike some other boards (no...you can't get me to say..but first letter starts w/B...LOL).
The Soob Crew is actually quite a great group. There are a few strong opinions voiced there (comes w/the passion about the cars..) but I've learned to take it w/a grain of salt! One of the things that helped me feel a more part of the group was to participate in the Subaru Chat on Thurs. evenings. I'm sure you'd have quite a different experience there (read:fun). The only thing bad about it is that my fingers get tired from typing so much, so fast! :-)
Brian, LOL, I owned a 96 Accord before switching to the A4 too :> Yup my buddy's Type R got 195hp at a whooping 8000rpm but only a torque of 130 ft-lb at 7500rpm. I would say Honda engines are good at tracks and that's about it. It's nowhere fun tossing it around in city traffic. The 1.8T engine, on the other hand, got tons of low-end torque and it's a blast to drive around town.
Vince, geez the BMW that you were supposed to drive was wrecked? Whew.....yup that tells you how good BMW's xi's are.....but I guess more important is, people got to realize AWD can't defy the law of Physics. The contact areas are still 4 dingy patches of tire to the ground, and AWD can't give you additional traction if the road surface is all slick. I guess whoever wrecked the BMW xi got the lesson.
Rocco, LOL, I am NOT going to trade in my A4 for a NEW A4.....the most I may do is to trade in for an S4 LOL but no not now. Just finished wiring a V1 radar detector and it's all smiles :>
I test drove the 2002 A4 1.8T, both the stick and the tiptronic. I loved the stick but the wife wants the auto. In a few years, the kids will be driving, and with an auto there will be more flexibility. I love the idea of the ESP, the Brake Assist and the Quattro system.
There is no comparison, IMHO, with the Passat 4 motion. The 1.8T with the auto is far superior response wise.
I am getting rid of a 93 grand cherokee, and wonder how much snow an A4 can go through. I assume that the standard 15inch tires will do better in snow than the 16inch option or the sport 17 inch option.
After a lot of searching, I have decided on an 02 A4 Avant for my next car. My current lease is not up for a few months, so I can order pretty much to my taste and not run into time problems. I will be getting the Tip, as my wife can't drive a stick and our marriage would not survive me teaching her I am new to Audis and have a few questions:
- I am leaning towards the 1.8 - most here seem pretty happy with theirs. Are there any compelling reasons to go with the 3.0 over the 1.8?
- Are the Xenons worth the $$ to upgrade?
- I won't be getting the Sport package, as I don't want to worry about changing into snow tires for winter. Are the 16" wheels worth upgrading?
- One specifically for markcincinnati - I am a fellow Queen City resident. If you wouldn't mind taking the time, could you please contact me off-list with any special feeling pro or con about the local dealerships?
a few quick answers: the 1.8 is great, and the 3.0 is better than the old 2.8 (IMHO). It seems like a general theme is that those who look to do mods (chips, etc.) to their cars go with the 1.8, and those who won't go for the 3.0. For me, the big issue is price. Yes, the 3.0 is a great engine, but I don't think its worth the extra money. The other thing to consider is that with the 1.8, you should allow time for the turbo to cool down after a drive. Not a big deal, but if you're a runnin' late kinda person its something to consider.
Yes, spend the extra cash for the xenons. I test drove with and without back-to-back, and wouldn't even give it a second thought now.
Yes, get the 16" wheels. They'll give you a slightly better ride, and they look a lot better than the 15".
Hello. You don't have to wait the turbo to cool down after a drive, if you have 2002 model. I heard that turbo engine had to wait until cool down about 7 years ago, but we don't have to do that today.
What exactly is (or was) the issue with the 1.8Turbo? And is it the case today? You couldn't drive, turn off, then restart soon after?? That would be bad if filling up at a gas station during a long trip....
I bought my 01 A4 last day of Feb and I'm in Chicago.....weird that after that till today there's only one moderate size snow "storm" that hit us and it put about 3 inches of the white stuff on the ground. I intentionally hit the gas hard or brake hard on the snow, and the Quattro performs flawlessly. That's the beauty of AWD....not on-demand 4WD. Of course it can't defy the law of Physics.....if it's ice under all 4 tires you can't do too much about it. And yes, the 15" wheels will do better than the 16" ones.....the width of the 15" ones is 205mm and the new 16" ones is 215mm.....the narrower the better for the snow. The 16" ones are Michelin Pilot Primacy tires.....something new for the A4 family. Looks like they are all-seasons so they should be fine with winter although if you go with snow tires and Quattro that'd be the best. I myself have the 15" all seasons and am not going to switch to snow tires. Afterall I survived 5 winters with a FWD Accord with no snow tires :>
Bluetrane, I agree with MuLawyer.....the 3.0 is a great engine, but unless you want to spend the extra $5-8k on the 3.0 w/options, go with the 1.8T. OK you can't get leather or power seats on the 1.8T, but the leatherette fooled a lot of my friends and the manual seats are fine. I don't have Xenons on mine and I regret it everyday so do get them. About the 02 15" wheels on the 1.8T, LOL they're really ugly. I would go for the 16" wheels although as I said in the last paragraph, they come with 215mm width tires instead of the 205mm ones on the 15" wheels. Of course the 17" wheels look VERY AWESOME but again they come with summer high performance tires with a patch width of 235mm!! Not good for winter at all.
About the turbo cool down thing, I agree with entombed.....you don't have to cool it down after a drive on a stock car. You might want to do that if you "chip" the car.....cuz you are asking the turbo to work a lot harder than before and it'll actually glow red in the dark after a spirited drive in a chipped car.
The A4 quattro is excellent in snow, even better with all season or winter tires depending on where you live. Too much north of mid-Ohio and the weather gets much colder than here in Cincinati and when there is snow it tends to stay a bit longer. If I lived in Cleveland or Toledo, I might consider winter tires -- but not here in River City.
The high performance summer tires are just OK in Cincinnati -- but the quattro, ESP and ABS with brake assist mitigate the summer tire issues a bit (at least in moderate winter Cincinnati).
Xenons -- not even a question -- they are fantastic, get them.
And, even though your spouse wants the automatic, see if you can get her to take an extended test drive of an A4 with a stick shift. The character of the car is significantly "improved" (IMO) with the stick. Plus an A4 1.8T is fun fun fun with the stick. Not that it is bad with the Tip.
With respect to the wheels -- at least the 16" for certain, but I think there is a 17" option which both improves the look of the car and (again IMO) the performance -- the sport package options that Audi offers are generally subtle with respect to their impact on ride and generally remarkable with respect to their impact (positive) on handling.
Some of the sport packages Audi has offered over the years include sport seats, wheels/tires and suspension and special steering wheel -- and those with, shall we say, grand posteriors sometimes found the seats with their "hold" a bit uncomfortable. For me @ 6' 195 lbs the sport seats with the rest of the sport package are fantastic.
One note about the 17" wheel/tires -- generally they are super great. BUT if you live where it gets really cold, snow or not, just know that some of these Maximum performance "summer" tires have an optimum operating temperature that begins at 45 F ambient. However, I ran an entire winter with Dunlop SP9000's with very few problems. I did notice on the coldest of days, when the car had been outside my office (in an uncovered parking lot), that the tires developed a flat spot -- but it always smoothed out after a few miles.
In any case the Audi's go like they're on rails with the 17" wheel/tire combination.
15 inch or 16 inch sounds fine for me. The wife really doesn't like the stick. I had a 86 Saab 9000 turbo stick, and she didn't like it. The arm rest on the A4 is in the way when it is down for using the stick. Those cup holders seem a bit odd as well. Still, I really loved driving both the stick and the tip. How is reliability on the recent A4's?
The turbo runs in a hydraulic bearing due to the extremely high speeds and temperatures. The issue with cool down is that if the turbo is hot when you shut it down the oil that remains in the turbo gets too hot and cokes up. Therefore you should let it cool before shutting down after running it hard. Running slow the last few minutes before shutting down and then letting it idle for 15 seconds before shutting down should be fine.
That said I am guessing many people do not let it cool down before shutting down, but then again most people do not drive their cars aggressively either.
Here is the situation. I made a deal for a 2002 A4 1.8T at an excellent price. The dealer is in a smaller market area in Michigan where they have no advertising fee to pay to Audi. But to get the car I want they have to get the car from a dealer in the Detroit metropolitan area. So now they tell me that this Detroit dealer has to pay an advertising fee, so the invoice price of the car now goes up approximately $300. I'm not sure of the exact ad. fee price because I am waiting for a copy of the invoice, but I am told it will be about $300. Since I negotiated a set price over invoice theoretically I now will pay $300 more for the car. My questions is, should I argue that I shouldn't have to pay the ad. fee, split the difference with the dealer, or what?
kk13: I couldn't have said it better myself. Even with a stock engine (no chip) the turbo gets red hot (this includes the current model year!). In most cases driving moderately for the last few miles would be fine. I don't foresee it being a problem for most drives . . . I just threw it out as something to consider.
The W engine in the Passat is the W8 engine that pumps out a reported 300hp. The new W12 engine is actually found in the A8. I forgot how much hp it pumps out.
Peterpan2, Scirocco will be able to answer your question about advertising fee. I didn't pay that at all in Chicago and in my opinion you shouldn't pay it either.
Tan7, well I own a 01 1.8T as well and I like the looks on the BMW 3-series coupes better than the Audi. However, considering me paying $5k more and getting only RWD on the BMW, I went for the Audi. OK maybe your friends' eyes won't shine as bright when you tell them you got an Audi instead of a BMW (that I gotta give it to BMW's marketing dept), but who cares? Quattro is awesome and BMW's xi simply can't compete with 20 yrs of Quattro.
Comments
Does anybody have any expeience good and or bad with APR or TAP and each of their Stage 1 chips? If so, please let me know what the experience has been like and if you would buy from them again.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Audibon
I bought the chip from Joe Hoppen Motorsports: http://www.hoppenmotorsport.com/
And, yes it is THE Joe Hoppen, German accent and all.
Kelly-- You picked up your car??
--'rocco
I love my car!!!
Chips usually come in two flavors:
"Spare ECU"(you swap the entire silver metal container with your stock one) and "Socketed"(your stock ECU is opened, the stock chip desoldered and a socket is installed which allows you to remove the aftermarket chip and reinsert the stock chip or send the aftermarket chip out for new coding)
Possible problems with chips:
Chip MAY or MAY NOT void warrenty depending on dealer.
Chip MAY or MAY NOT lower the life of the engine
Chip could possibly damage turbo.
Chip could cause pinging(detonation) in high heat or with poor fuel(91 octane or less)
Advantages to chipping:
Less turbo lag
More horsepower and torque
Better acceleration
Better gas milage
Some chips can smooth out jerkiness or lag problems
YOU GO FAST!
Brand names:
TAP, APR, Garrett, Neuspeed, AMS, MTM/Hoppen, Wetterauer, Autothority and probably more that I don't know of or am forgetting.
Helpful links to learn more about turbos or these fine companies:
Don P's "Audi Zone" http://donp.tzo.com/
AWE Tuning: http://www.awe-tuning.com/
APR: http://www.goapr.com/Home/home.html
Wett: http://www.chip-tuning.com
Garrett: http://www.giacusa.com/welcome.html
TAP: http://www.tap1.com
Neuspeed/Greedspeed: http://www.greedspeed.com
If you look around a4.org more you will find LOTS of info.
So i decided I had to go check out the 2002 A4. I am keen to go back to manual cars (after 3 years with a sluchbox). I've driven a friends Tiptronic, and it does not feel like a true manual! (no offense to tip owners)
Had a really good experience, regarding the way I was treated at the dealership. When I mentioned I was about 2-3 months away from apurchasing decision, the salesman pulled out a non-demo, spanking new (11 miles) A4, 1.8, Q, manual in denim blue, off the showroom floor (had no others similarly equipped on the lot). It also had the 16 inch wheels and sunroof, no other upgrades. Handed me the keys and told me to be back by closing time - about an hour away!
The car drives really well. I test drove the Subaru WRX Impreza last weekend, and there is a world of difference in how the two feel! Sure, the WRX is sportier, and a tiny bit more powerful and tossable, but the A4 is way better as a daily driver, with a comfortable drive, solid feel on the road and more than enough power!
Just thought I'd write this and mention how jealous I am of all ouy 1.8T, A4 owners. I may be joining your ranks in a few months, though!
Just curious, I'm not to keen on getting any of the extra options - sunroof, 16 inch wheels etc. How do having (or not having) options affect resale value, say 4-5 years down the line? And do you think the slightly lower profile 16 inch wheels make much of a difference in handling? I did notice that the 16 inch wheels were Michelin Pilots, while the 15's on other cars were Pirellis, or Continentals, and the 17s were mostly Continental. I don't want the sport package, but if 16 inch wheels improve the handling somewhat over 15's, I may be able to justify the price! Oh - the base sounds system is quite good, and I don't think the price for the upgrade is justified (I sat in one just to listn to the sound, after my LONG test drive)
White, Silver, light mettalics: Very nice when clean, but can be dull. (I don't think any of these would be dull on an A4). Audi pearl white is awesome, but the wensite lists it as a (sit down for this) $1,200 option! Maybe that is a misprint. We have a white Caraven, and it does not show dust. It also looks better dirty than any dark car I have owned. I can go three times as long without a wash (until brake dust builds up), as I can with my dark green Maxima. For my family car,...I would always pick one of these colors. Silver is a classic sports car color, with good resale value. One last thing - road tar and everything else that sticks to the lower fenders shows up - after one winter, some of the staining will be permanent. I can live with this on my minivan.
Black: Awesome when clean, which is about one hour at a time. Depending where you live, and how windy it is, it will look dusty before you finish drying it. Very hard to wax - shows every hand swirl. Hard to wash in the sun, or the summer generally, because it drys so fast. Very hot in the summer - affects the AC. I've had three black cars - two I inherited or married. I'll never buy another. I think the non-metallic black looks classier, and holds up better to age and weather.
Dark metallics: I currently have a dark green Maxima. It is so dark, when I get tickets, the cops write "black". It might as well be black, as all of the disadvantages of black exist. I've also had a dark blue metallic - ditto above. As I said above, I prefer the non-metallics, because they age better. Metallics do have a "depth" that can be stunning when new. Metallics are a $450.00+ option on most German cars.
Red, Yellow, etc.: These are my favorites - but I like cars that really scream. These are non-metallic, and I think the best weather, maintenance, appearance compromise. I've never had a yellow car, but I've had red, and it glowed like the sun! I got so many compliments on that car. Red has great resale value (I would think yellow does too in a sport sedan). Sadly, I don't think Audi offers these colors in the 2002 A4 any longer. Their red is a dark metallic, not true red. Red does attract attention - more tickets. If you want to fly low under the radar - figuratively as well as literally, these are not your color. My next car will definitely be red, though - flying low is not my priority.
Final word - of the colors you've suggested - go silver. It will be a classic, and easy to take care of to boot. Unless you want to save the money and go non-metallic.
Stephen
Ryan-- yep ...not a misprint, Pearlescent White is-in-fact a $1,200 option. And I've had 6 cars with metallic silver paint, one of them being my beloved Scirocco, and never have I had permanent discolorization or staining stemming from winter elements. The VW silver metallic was one of the best paint jobs I've had on a car (very chip- resistant and looked almost new even after 10 years with very little maintenance) and I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the Audi silver will hold up similarly.
Kelly-- Congratulations! If you live or work on the Eastside, that'll be me in the "old" silver A4 drooling as we pass one another. :P
--'rocco
I work on the eastside, so....if on some random day you see a sweet looking dolphin gray A4 go whizzing by you with 2 cop cars in pursuit...just think of me!
but first, i'd have to pry it out of the hands of my wife. Of all people, she's starting to get excited about having a new car.
Anyone know if the black trim that outlines the windows in the 1.8T can be replaced with chrome trim like it has in the 3.0?
Thanks!
Jack Daniels Motors, Inc.
29-09 Broadway
Fair Lawn, NJ 07410
Telephone: 201-796-8500
E-mail: info@jackdanielsmotors.com
I know this question wasn't addressed to me so I'll let Gerry comment further.
--'rocco
Billy
The perception therefore was of rapid acceleration for a moment and a half followed by a huge RUSH and a tach needle that could reach redline in the blink of an eye.
In my experience this is what I would call turbo lag. It was not a problem, mind you -- but it did come on in such a rush after the initial few yards of forward momentum to be quite noticable.
The stock 1.8T was much more of a smooth and rapid progression -- instead of a jump start and steady progression.
A stage one chipped 1.8T (with no other modifications) was noticably quicker and more fun, but hardly without lag (again this was with the MTM chip, which I chose because it appeared to have the least noticable turbo lag on paper).
This is in no way meant to discourage you from chipping (and I agree with the above posts plusses and minuses generally speaking). I do not think I could comfortably go to a stage two or three as the amount of plumbing involved would -- one would imagine -- have to cause some sort of warranty issues. I had no issues and I had my chip installed by my dealer.
Hoppen "claimed" the chip in and of itself would not cause any warranty concerns -- which was true. I replaced the car with the chip with a 225HP 1.8T engined TT and have not chipped it, as it seems just fine the way that it is -- but even it does not have the "urge" of the 1.8T chipped motor.
I love silver. I had a silver RX-7 in college, and it was beautiful. You're obviously like me, when you find something that fits your personal style, you stick with it. Thats why, after this next purchase, I think I'll have a red car for the foreseeable future.
ps: I think chip resistance is more a function of hood, grille, and windshield aerodynamics than paint quality. Just my opinion, though.
Rocco, thanks you for your help on this. I think I am going to test drive the 325i and decide for myself. But at this point I am still leaning toward the A4. Like you said, the dealer only orders with Quattro. It was a relatively short test drive and I would want to test drive the A4 one or two more times just to get a better feel for it before I could make a decision.
This is more of a general question. Where can I find information about turbo engines? I couldn't easily find it thru the search engines.
Thanks in advance.
vince...8o)
http://www.rtec.ch/turbo_basics.html
A little more specific on our K03 turbos and what chipping does:
http://www.swankmonkey.com/turbo/
Enjoy!
Billy
Stephen
The salesperson -- not the owner -- that I deal with at the local Audi store claimed that they ordered almost no FWD Audis and that many of the few FWD's they do get in are customer special orders.
And, without any intention of being a smart alec, what does living in Texas have to do with "not needing quattro?" One of my best friends lives in Dallas and he claims you need quattro there, but not heated seats (which are rare in TX). My experience has been that quattro is a performance item not just a foul weather technology -- although I do grant that it is that. My Dallas buddy says that quattro improves the car in handling in the dry and in the wet (and I can attest in the snow, too). But his love of quattro is not based first and foremost on bad weather traction -- it is based on performance.
Now, I am not -- IN ANY WAY -- suggesting that I think a front wheel drive Audi is not a good car, it is -- I am suggesting that the reason people love the quattro system is many fold and that most folks talk about quattro because of its racing and performance heritage.
Stephen-- Yeah! I was observing that lively discussion that you folks on the WRX board were having over there! It's good to see you, though, over here on the A4 forum. I still haven't had time to do anything yet to the Forester ...just been too busy --posting on these forums *lol* I just got into a little disagreement with Paisan on the Forester board and it just goes to show what I was telling you before ...I shouldn't be posting over there because it's so difficult to express an opinion or give advice if you're not "part of the Crew."
Vince-- My Audi salesman did tell me the same thing ...that Portland area dealers did not want to discount A4s at all. That was the reason he gave in telling me that he works with an auto broker down there so at least Portland folks can get a little bit of a discount rather than paying MSRP at the dealer. Like I said, if you want me to give you his name so that you can cut out the "middle-man" broker, let me know. As for Bimmers in general, I love 'em but don't really like the snob image that they portray. Audis, for some reason, don't give off that same image to the general public.
Ryan-- Ah, I understand. I had a white pick-up once and remember those tar stains, etc. And I believe you're right ...it has more to do with styling aerodynamics than paint quality but I do remember going down the freeway in that Scirocco and having a stone hit somewhere on the edge of the hood with what seemed like tremendous velocity and when I got out to look for the damage, it hardly showed at all. Needless to say, I was impressed. I think those were the days when they still used lead in the painting process, though. I believe that nowadays, paints in todays cars are now "softer" because of it.
Billy-- You considering trading in your "old" car??? And see, when you have refer to our cars as "old" it just makes us feel like second class citizens now :-P ...I still think "classic" would be a classier description. hahahaa, well, wait, I know, that doesn't quite sound right either. *tsk*
--'rocco
Rocco, I see what you are saying about the snob image issue altho I don't feel that way as strong as you do. At this point, I just want to get a feel for the 325i and see which one suits my likings. Like i said, I am still leaning toward the A4. I might just get a 3.0QM if I get a good deal from your broker. Yesterday I could have tried out the 325xi but the only one they had was wrecked in the test drive earlier during the day. The saleperson showing me the damaged 325xi said that it slipped out of a left turn on some wet leaves and sliding to the curb hard. That tells a little bit about the BMW all-wheel-drive system if the saleperson was telling the truth.
vince...8o)
I would assume that Audi would have brought the CVT out on the higher HP / torque engines if it could have -- which is not to say they will not soon. I do not know. But, in article after article about the ZF "tiptronic" 6spd (which with BMW's programming is currently on their flagship 7 series and will reportedly be available on the Audi A8 series) it is claimed that this transmission is 44 pounds or kg lighter than the 5spd and can handle in "normal" configuration about 400 foot pounds of torque -- the CVT is a long way from being able to do that.
So, while the CVT may be a great technological achievement for Audi, it would appear that several things are working against it for the upcoming models:
1. It "feels" different, odd perhaps (read the Car and Driver article)
2. It can't (yet) be used in the highest performance cars that [Audi] has "in the wings."
3. The 6spd tip accomplishes much of the same thing the CVT does, for example, it keeps the engine in its "sweet spot" most of the time, is more economical than its predecessor automatics and can improve the quickness of even the smaller engined (1.8T perhaps) cars that it will inevitably be offered in.
4. It apparently is more economical to produce
On the other hand, never having driven one, I am curious and anxious to drive a CVT A4 (especially the 3.0). Yet, it is a rare day when the dealers here in Cincinnati have FWD Audis of any ilk.
I had thought, based on the CVT press release (until I found out it was FWD only) that a CVT with an Audi V8 or Turbo engine of some kind [on a quattro] would be a technological tour de force -- alas, at this point in time, it is not to be.
Audi appears to be "determined" to stamp out the manual transmission (or perhaps it is just Audi of America that appears to be doing this). Evidence in Cincinnati is that the majority of the 2002 S4's are coming in as 5spd tips.
Nice to see you "survived" another test drive without any tickets!
Brian
The Soob Crew is actually quite a great group. There are a few strong opinions voiced there (comes w/the passion about the cars..) but I've learned to take it w/a grain of salt! One of the things that helped me feel a more part of the group was to participate in the Subaru Chat on Thurs. evenings. I'm sure you'd have quite a different experience there (read:fun). The only thing bad about it is that my fingers get tired from typing so much, so fast! :-)
Stephen
Vince, geez the BMW that you were supposed to drive was wrecked? Whew.....yup that tells you how good BMW's xi's are.....but I guess more important is, people got to realize AWD can't defy the law of Physics. The contact areas are still 4 dingy patches of tire to the ground, and AWD can't give you additional traction if the road surface is all slick. I guess whoever wrecked the BMW xi got the lesson.
Rocco, LOL, I am NOT going to trade in my A4 for a NEW A4.....the most I may do is to trade in for an S4 LOL but no not now. Just finished wiring a V1 radar detector and it's all smiles :>
Billy
There is no comparison, IMHO, with the Passat 4 motion. The 1.8T with the auto is far superior response wise.
I am getting rid of a 93 grand cherokee, and wonder how much snow an A4 can go through. I assume that the standard 15inch tires will do better in snow than the 16inch option or the sport 17 inch option.
- I am leaning towards the 1.8 - most here seem pretty happy with theirs. Are there any compelling reasons to go with the 3.0 over the 1.8?
- Are the Xenons worth the $$ to upgrade?
- I won't be getting the Sport package, as I don't want to worry about changing into snow tires for winter. Are the 16" wheels worth upgrading?
- One specifically for markcincinnati - I am a fellow Queen City resident. If you wouldn't mind taking the time, could you please contact me off-list with any special feeling pro or con about the local dealerships?
Thanks in advance, and happy Thanksgiving to all!
the 1.8 is great, and the 3.0 is better than the old 2.8 (IMHO). It seems like a general theme is that those who look to do mods (chips, etc.) to their cars go with the 1.8, and those who won't go for the 3.0. For me, the big issue is price. Yes, the 3.0 is a great engine, but I don't think its worth the extra money. The other thing to consider is that with the 1.8, you should allow time for the turbo to cool down after a drive. Not a big deal, but if you're a runnin' late kinda person its something to consider.
Yes, spend the extra cash for the xenons. I test drove with and without back-to-back, and wouldn't even give it a second thought now.
Yes, get the 16" wheels. They'll give you a slightly better ride, and they look a lot better than the 15".
You don't have to wait the turbo to cool down after a drive, if you have 2002 model.
I heard that turbo engine had to wait until cool down about 7 years ago, but we don't have to do that today.
Bluetrane, I agree with MuLawyer.....the 3.0 is a great engine, but unless you want to spend the extra $5-8k on the 3.0 w/options, go with the 1.8T. OK you can't get leather or power seats on the 1.8T, but the leatherette fooled a lot of my friends and the manual seats are fine. I don't have Xenons on mine and I regret it everyday so do get them. About the 02 15" wheels on the 1.8T, LOL they're really ugly. I would go for the 16" wheels although as I said in the last paragraph, they come with 215mm width tires instead of the 205mm ones on the 15" wheels. Of course the 17" wheels look VERY AWESOME but again they come with summer high performance tires with a patch width of 235mm!! Not good for winter at all.
About the turbo cool down thing, I agree with entombed.....you don't have to cool it down after a drive on a stock car. You might want to do that if you "chip" the car.....cuz you are asking the turbo to work a lot harder than before and it'll actually glow red in the dark after a spirited drive in a chipped car.
Billy
The high performance summer tires are just OK in Cincinnati -- but the quattro, ESP and ABS with brake assist mitigate the summer tire issues a bit (at least in moderate winter Cincinnati).
Xenons -- not even a question -- they are fantastic, get them.
And, even though your spouse wants the automatic, see if you can get her to take an extended test drive of an A4 with a stick shift. The character of the car is significantly "improved" (IMO) with the stick. Plus an A4 1.8T is fun fun fun with the stick. Not that it is bad with the Tip.
With respect to the wheels -- at least the 16" for certain, but I think there is a 17" option which both improves the look of the car and (again IMO) the performance -- the sport package options that Audi offers are generally subtle with respect to their impact on ride and generally remarkable with respect to their impact (positive) on handling.
Some of the sport packages Audi has offered over the years include sport seats, wheels/tires and suspension and special steering wheel -- and those with, shall we say, grand posteriors sometimes found the seats with their "hold" a bit uncomfortable. For me @ 6' 195 lbs the sport seats with the rest of the sport package are fantastic.
One note about the 17" wheel/tires -- generally they are super great. BUT if you live where it gets really cold, snow or not, just know that some of these Maximum performance "summer" tires have an optimum operating temperature that begins at 45 F ambient. However, I ran an entire winter with Dunlop SP9000's with very few problems. I did notice on the coldest of days, when the car had been outside my office (in an uncovered parking lot), that the tires developed a flat spot -- but it always smoothed out after a few miles.
In any case the Audi's go like they're on rails with the 17" wheel/tire combination.
Happy Thanksgiving all.
That said I am guessing many people do not let it cool down before shutting down, but then again most people do not drive their cars aggressively either.
Peterpan2, Scirocco will be able to answer your question about advertising fee. I didn't pay that at all in Chicago and in my opinion you shouldn't pay it either.
Tan7, well I own a 01 1.8T as well and I like the looks on the BMW 3-series coupes better than the Audi. However, considering me paying $5k more and getting only RWD on the BMW, I went for the Audi. OK maybe your friends' eyes won't shine as bright when you tell them you got an Audi instead of a BMW (that I gotta give it to BMW's marketing dept), but who cares? Quattro is awesome and BMW's xi simply can't compete with 20 yrs of Quattro.
Billy