Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

spartanmann

Last time I checked Saturn was made by GM. If Edmunds was biased against GM wouldn't Saturn be rated at the bottom also? The Accord is number one in sales despite minimal incentives. It also has resale values that put most other manufacturers to shame (both GM and foreign). Those are just the facts. I don't own an Accord and probably never will. But the numbers don't lie. Better design, performance, quality and reliability than the competition. They certainly didn't get there on styling. Accords are designed specifically for the U.S. and are engineered, assembled, and parts sourced by Americans here in the good old USA. This has nothing to do with American vs. Foreign perceptions. It has everything to do with committment to product quality and innovation in the Board Room and executive ranks. Japanese companies that lack this committment also suffer (Isuzu etc...) Do you really think if you put Honda badges on a GP and had Edmunds test it, they would rate it #1?

dindak

Honda would never make anything as good looking as a GP.

Saturn is owned by GM??

;-)

midlifecrisis

My neighbor's Accord is hideous looking inside and outside. I don't care how "reliable" it is or what it's resale value will be, if I can't enjoy it while I drive it. That's why I bought the GP. I enjoy it while I drive it, and I bought it at a good price. I'll worry about trade in value a few years down the road.

Dindak is correct about the disparity of reliability as defects per 1000. There is very little difference between manufacturers now. The difference now is just perceived. Even Hyundai is coming out with reasonably reliable vehicles these days. I've had my GP for 7000 miles, and I've only had to take it once to the dealer for a recall. I hope that continues for years!

carguy58

I'm 24 years old ok and my family is a buy Donestic Big 3 family. I don't think GM cars are a piece of garbage.

As far as the 6 as comparing the Mazda 6 to a Malibu the 6's exterior puts the Malibu to shame.

With the Mazda 6 interior its better than the Altima and ond on par with the Camry(if you remember right I have criticized the 02 Camry's interior and 03 Accord's exterior so I don't look past flaws in Japanese Cars.

Finally, with the Mistubishi Galant one magazine a couple years ago actually ranked the Galant #1 mid size car over the Honda Accord.

I think the Grand Prix is like the Mazda 6 if you want a car for singles and couples its the car for you. If you want a car for a family look elsewhere.

ab348

The Saturn ranked just above the Intrigue. Still low, just not quite as low. That alone tells me they have no credibility as there is no comparison between the cars. As for the Accords superiority, I maintain it is in the minds of people more than anything. If you can convince people to pay big money for a car with a 4-banger engine and plastic hubcaps, when they could have had a V-6 with alloys, among other things, that tells me there is something almost cult-like going on.

evandro

I like this feature, but I'm not maniacal about it. I had a Stratus and an Alero with this feature and now have an Intrigue with it. In all these cars they fold, but not flat. It's fine with me. These cars are not station-wagons, they have a 20" or so clearance, so I like folding the rear seats for long objects, not bulky ones. As a matter of fact, I don't think that it would be possible to cram a 20"-high object through either the trunk gate or the rear door. I'm afraid that GM got some engineers from minivans and SUVs that decided that sacrificing comfort in the rear seats made sense, because they've been designing flat cargo spaces for years... Go figure, but I myself still have to check out those infamous seats personally.

spartanmann

Accords come with v6 and alloy wheels as options just like everyone else. A lot of people still get the 4 because it is smooth and quiet unlike others. Of course if you drove one, you would know that. In your view, millions of Americans read biased reviews and then pay more money than necessary to buy the wrong car. As the rest of the world knows, magazine reviews play a very small part in a buyer's decision. They test drive the vehicle, talk to neighbors and friends about their experiences and often talk to their local mechanic who knows better than any of us what is built well and what isn't. They also go by their previous ownership experience with a particular manufacturer. None of this has anything to do with mind control The best selling vehicle in the country is the F-150, for the same reasons. Now there's a really big cult-like following.

One more thing. GM is buying Honda engines to upgrade power on the Saturn Vue. And of course you know that the Pontiac Vibe is made for GM by Toyota. Looks like GM has joined the cult too!

dindak

Actually, the engines are swapped for GM transmissions and the Vibe was co-designed by GM. The concept and all of the interior is GM. Neither project is unique, all car companies swap and co-design cars.

ab348

Yes, I did drive one before buying another car. I was unimpressed with the 4-banger's shake in gear at stoplights and to get a decent package that ditched the plastic hubcaps would have cost me far too much.

spartanmann

Swapping parts is much different than buying engines, the most important component in the vehicle. As for the Vibe, it is a Toytoa plain and simple with the interior designed by GM. A 95/5 arrangement that Pontiac buyers wouldn't know about without doing a little research. Nothing wrong with these arrangements. My point remains that GM is upgrading vehicles by utilizing complete designs and engines from their biggest competitors. Again, nothing wrong with this at all as it provides better products. It's just annoying to continually hear the excuses made for domestic manufacturers that they are doing poorly in sales and profitability because of "biased reviews" when in fact they recognize the excellence of their competition and hire them to make their products more competitive.

dindak

Cobalt, Malibu / Maxx and G6 are all new GM cars which are all GM. Just because 2 models out of 100 have some Honda/ Toyota backgrounds does not mean much for a such a huge company. I have not heard GM complain about poor reviews, just some people on this board. That said, I do think that over all there is a bias towards Honda and Toyota products in general as even their so so products seem to get accolades.

spartanmann

Fact of the matter is they don't make many so-so products. Until recently, neither Toyota pickups, minivans, or SUVs were rated at the top by anyone, same goes for original the Honda Odyssey minivan. But they learn from their mistakes and never take their eye off the competition. The 2004 Sienna is a perfect example as they literally copied every desirable feature from their competitors. I would agree with you that Toyota and Honda get the benefit of the doubt with regard to reliability on new products when it is possible they could have problems. Reviewers tend to assume that the reliability will be the same as for the previous model. But when everyone reviews a group of cars and comes to the same basic conclusion, then you just have to accept it probably is a better product. A great example is the BMW 5 series which probably has the best reviews you can ever get (even Consumers Reports) and is rated ahead of Lexus, Infinity, Acura and everyone else.

Likewise when everyone notes in their reviews that yet another GM car is being built with lousy and cheap looking interior materials, it probably isn't bias either.

midlifecrisis

At the risk of being off GP topic:

Compare the Aztek to the Element. Two very out-there designs. The Aztek got panned from day 1 and rightly so. But I think the Element is even more hideous, but because it is a Honda, they tend to "overlook" many of its flaws. It really is a double standard.

As I've said before, I'd take my GP over a Camry, Altima and Accord. I'm not sure about the Mazda 6, as I never really researched that car.

regfootball

the element is not as dreadful as the aztek.

dan165

The Toyota RAV is crap (a la Sidekick). Camry is dull and ugly but gets rave reviews. The Honda Element is an ugly box on wheels. The Honda Civic is certainly not even close to the best in class but seems to still get the nod for best compact many places.

I don't think there is a bias against domestics, but I do think many reviewers tend to over look flaws in Hondas and Toyotas and also give them the benefit of the doubt if there are issues. I certainly don't think the GP is best in midsize class, but it's certainly a good car and for those that want a bit more sport in their sedan, it's probably one of the better choices.

ab348

The Element is the box the Aztek was shipped inside.

The statement that they don't build many lackluster vehicles is symptomatic of the perception problem. The previous-gen Toyota Corolla was an awful car that still sold gazillions of copies. Honda and Toyota are able to pull the wool over consumers eyes by selling them a 4-cyl car for the price of a 6. I don't care how good it is, it's still a 4-cyl car and that has some irrefutable drawbacks. The original RAV4 was a hideous little piece that people bought in spite of itself. And I need not mention the oil gelling in Toyota engines and the grenading of Honda transmissions.

It's a remarkable double standard.

dan165

I'll take a 3.8L V6 GP over any of the offered midsize 4 BANGERS any day. You are right, same price and virtually the same mileage.

spartanmann

Millions of people buy Hondas and Toyotas because they are morons who were fooled by those tricky foreigners? Actually they just went into the show room, test drove one and decided they liked it best, just like anyone else who buys a car. Many other people look at them and don't buy them either. But higher resale values and repeat ownership percentages don't occur by accident. Again - the F-150 is the best selling vehicle for the same reasons. Unlike others on this board, the BIG 3 brass freely acknowledge they have dropped the ball against the competition when it comes to passenger cars. Over the next few years they have a tremendous number of new products that they claim will return them to higher market shares and profitibility. I'd like to see that and it will happen if they are top notch vehicles (in which case they will get good reviews). But if they have the same glaring flaws as the Grand Prix then they will continue to lose out, and amazingly some people will still say it's just because of those darned biased reviews!

stumack1

...no question about a double standard. The "revamped" Aztek with the bigger wheel/tire combo and the body colour cladding isn't bad. The Element is just hideous...if it wasn't a Honda the press would be all over this "monstrosity" and heads would be rolling at the almighty H. It's a clown car, I can't imagine anyone wanting to be seen in it.

spartanmann

I know this getting off the subject, but I've never seen a review of the Element or Aztec that said either was an attractive vehicle. They are both obviously hideous to look at. But - the Element is a cheap car specifically marketed to Gen Xers (the same people who think rap music sounds good!). It has been a sales success and its sole purpose is to prime twentysomethings to buy a more expensive and better looking Honda with their next purchase. In other words, they identified their market and are able to sell their vehicles without begging. The Aztec on the other hand was a sales failure from day one and sold so badly that GM took the almost unprecedented step of redesigning it immediately. Being priced higher, meant that buyers were going to be older and actually expect decent styling. Honda knew the Element was ugly but that it wouldn't matter to their target audience. The question people really need to ask is: How many GM Vice Presidents looked at the Aztec during the styling mock-up phase, and said "Wow what a good looking vehicle - people will line up to buy them!" And also, how many of those execs are still employed by GM? I'm guessing all of them.

ab348

In other words, the Element is designed ugly on purpose to entice clueless youth into becoming members of the 4-banger-lovin' Honda cult? ;-)

regfootball

so honda puts out one questionable vehicle while pontiac his a lengthy recent history of major styling offenses.

at least hondas typically in the past havent had vinyl siding glued on their sides.

pat

We're getting pretty far afield of the topic here. Let's try to stick to the Grand Prix, okay folks?

Thanks.

rodney12

Yesterday I had the experience of being a passenger in a friend’s car as we returned to a parking lot where my 04 Black GTP was sitting. There were several other cars parked there, including a Jaguar, some Mercedes, Volvos, a Camry and the like. I sat there for a moment and pondered why if I could have any of those cars I’d still be driving away in my Pontiac. Certainly some of them will have better resale value. Definitely some of the more pretentious ones imply greater “status” and should somehow be “better”.

All I can figure is that Pontiac did right by their slogan “Fuel for the soul”. My Pontiac is inspiring, beautiful and an absolute pleasure to drive. It’s gorgeous shape, ample power, smooth handling and smart technology form a synergy that I really can’t explain except to say why would I want anything else. I know there are aspects that could be better (back seat, plastic, etc), but that can be said of any car, even the really expensive ones. At the end of the day I guess I’m just not willing to trade the fire for implied status or perceived worth to someone else.

Just my up-too-late mushy 2 cents worth…

midlifecrisis

You hit the nail on the head! I need a car to inspire me. That is why I cannot drive a Camaccord, Taurus, etc. I test drove a lot of cars prior to buying the GP. The GP was the only car that met my needs, was affordable, and "stirred my soul". End of story.

spartanmann

You're catching on. The idea is to sell cars and be profitable. Something stockholders of the Big 3 expect.

midlifecrisis

I think a majority of people in this country treat cars as appliances. They need to get from point A to point B. So they get cars that are utilitarian, but supposedly reliable, so they don't have to bring them for repairs.

Every person I know who owns a Toyota says the same thing: "I beat the thing to death and it just keeps going". I'm not that kind of person. My car is not a toaster that I stick in the corner and forget about.

Yet these same people will pay for the fastest internet connection, the fanciest cable TV package, 4 cell phones with unlimited minutes, etc. Go figure.

I take pride in my vhicles. My car needs to make a positive statement. At least to me. That's why I got a GP.

dindak

A Camry is a toaster, you can't get any more appliance like in a car.

Lots of people like appliances though, that's why GM made the new Malibu.

racer17v

Same reasons I love my car. It looks great, turns heads, is FUN to drive, and fast. I can't tell you how many compliments I get or how cool it is to simply come out of a grocery store or gas station to someone staring at your car. Exactly what I was hoping for and more.

midlifecrisis

"A Camry is a toaster"

I'm still laughing at that one. My parents have been driving around in toasters for the last 20 years!

midlifecrisis

My first new car was a 1985 Nissan Sentra. If you look up the word appliance in the dictionary it will have a picture of that car.

Of course, the 80's were not kind to GM either....

dindak

I still miss our 98 3.8 SE (totalled). That said, our intrigue looks a bit like a toaster but certainly does not drive like one.

:-)

orwoody

Nothing wrong with appliances. There are different styles of toasters and other appliances... I like my GP cause its a reliable appliance that I enjoy driving and looking at.
I've driven a lot of appliances(travel - rentals) Taurus/Sable/Camry/Altima/Regal/GP/Malibu/Corolla/Town Car/LeSabre/Crown Vic/Intrepid/Stratus/Alero/Caravan/others..
For the prices I paid, my GPs have been fun, reliable and a great value.

carguy58

Ok, your telling how horrible the 98-02 Corolla was. I would take a 98 Corolla over a 98 Cavilier anyday of the week. I mean your calling the Corolla awful while the Cavilier is based on a 20 year old platform. Say what?

I'll agree with the Camry its a bland vehicle.

As far as the Element I like Honda but I don't like that car.

midlifecrisis

I had a 96 Cavalier. It had a few interior parts problems that needed replacement. But overall the car was not too bad, especially for only $12K. And it was pretty peppy for a car that consistently got 30 mpg no matter how I drove it.

And I think it got more style points than a Corolla.

midlifecrisis

Where did everyone go? Topic get boring or too off track?

Martypa

crash data on Grand Prix looked pretty dismal.....

bobbyz34

It's pretty disappointing. I can't believe that it did worse than the previous generation. I had the 95 Monte Carlo for 8+ years and I think it performed the same as the 97-03 GP. And now I'm in the 04GP and it worries me a little. The two things that help are there are no perfect accidents (NHTSA testing lab) and the size of the car (rather be in my gp than a sunfire in any accident).

orwoody

The 0 to 60mph times GM published for the GP/GTP have got to be a mistake. This article from the car connection clicked an Impala SS at 7 seconds or less. More in line with the previous generation. So I can't believe the ~8 second times GM published on the GP/GTP.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6682&sid=18- 4&n=157

Having owned both GP & GTP of previous generation and driven the 2004 GT2, I can say the 2004 is at least as fast as the previous gen.

chevyguy657

I too can't believe the nasty results this week. So much so, that the GP is probably no longer on my shopping list. Even if the vehicle tested didn't have curtains (NHTSA doesn't test for head injury yet), the side rating of double threes won't help much from the neck down. And a three for the driver-side frontal?

I think that's the worst I've seen in a while and TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE for an '04 model, IMO. GM had best do something fast.

Guess sales are about to take a hit and depreciation will skyrocket.

vcjumper

Its just showing the cars old platform roots, but odd since the Impala improved on the 97/98 W-bodies when it came out in 2000. Guess back seat comfort wasn't the only thing glossed over when styling the car.

evandro

I'm very disappointed at them. The test doesn't explicitly mention that the unit they tested had side air-bags, but even if the side collision results would improve, the frontal ones wouldn't.

I was split between the GP and the Mazda 6, but this tilted the scale towards the latter or its Ford spin-off, the Futura.

I'm afraid that if Ford gets its game together with the upcoming 500 (based on the Volvo S80 platform) and works out its quality issues, Henry might get my business...

I just hope that Pontiac doesn't screw up the G6...

chevyguy657

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the '04 GP is even available with chest side airbags, only curtains. Crash results are a BIG disappointment for me. So much for the GP, I guess.

The G6 looks good so far, but based on '04 Malibu pricing and lack of meaningful rebates on that ($1,000, big deal), the G6 will be priced out of my range ($27+, nicely equipped, for sure).

The House that Henry Built. Hmmm. The Mazda 6 got similar double 3s on the side, but double 5s up front. Not good enough for me, and the Futura will be based on the 6. The 500 has 2 issues (aside from really boring styling): the same 3.0 OHC engine as in the Taurus, and a likely overpricing situation, given Ford's recent troubles.

Guess I'll have to hold out for bigger rebates on the Malibu.....

midlifecrisis

Why does NHTSA come out with crash ratings several months after the vehicle is on the market?

evandro

Do you mean the same 3.0 OHV or 3.0 DOHC as in the Taurus? I drove a Taurus with the DOHC and it was very peppy. The 500 should get the DOHC with variable cam phase, which sounds good.

berlin2

Anyone know if it's possible to have a center-rear seat shoulder belt installed, instead of just the lap belt that came with the car? Big job or little? Where is best place to have it done-dealership, bodyshop? Thanks.

chevyguy657

midlifecrisis: It's because the gov't has to wait for a production sample, and due to NHTSA's budget constraints, tests vehicles in batches. I'm waiting to see how the '04 Malibu does, very intently now that this fiasco happened. One more reason not to buy as soon as a model comes out, if you can.

evandro: Yes, I was referring to the 200 hp/200 lb. ft. Duratech DOHC. On paper, it sounds a bit on the low end of power. Maybe not on the road. Also don't know if the 500 will weigh more than the Taurus, but I'd assume so.

evandro

Indeed, 200HP nowadays is nothing to write home about, but I liked that Ford engine. It reminded me of the 215HP 3.5 V6 in my Intrigue.

chrisjericho

Does anyone know how much better a side impact crash would be with the side curtain air bags? I wonder if Pontiac will make any changes for 2005. I was going to have to wait until then anyway before I could afford a GTP anyway.

chevyguy657

The last I heard, several months ago, was a gov't study that claimed a 10% reduction in fatalities with side (chest) airbags and a 40% reduction with curtain (head) airbags. I'd assume a 50% reduction with both. NHTSA is behind the times and doesn't consider head injury, only chest and thorax. IIHS does factor head injury in, but they haven't yet tested an '04 GP.

Except for the G6, GM seems bent on only offering curtains on most of the new models. Don't hold your breath for changes in '05; they still don't offer anything more than a driver chest airbag on the Impala, and that's in its fifth model year. Absurd. With the GP, you never know. Depends on how Lutz reacts to the news, probably.