I just wanted to pipe in on post #272. You have more than the right of first refusal. If you don't take the car, it is sent back to Toyota. The dealership does not get to keep and sell the car. We went through this already. I guess this is why some dealerships are taking non-refundable deposits.
When these coupons first hit, the sales department was taken by surprise which is why we were looking for an out. It turns out that the lawyers for each dealership agreed to the terms of this class action settlement. We have agreed to abide by its terms no matter what and it doesn't matter if we like it or not.
We take them with a smile. We'll be glad when they are gone (which they are in this region already) but we never scowl or make the customer feel like they are pulling a fast one on us. The customer is only doing what a customer is supposed to do and that is make the best deal they can. It isn't bait and switch and it isn't unethical to use it. Again, we don't have to like it but you shouldn't have to know that.
"Another benefit to driving a Prius is that you can get a tax deduction," says Jones. "Because of the incredible fuel economy and ultra-low emissions, the federal government allows a qualified clean air deduction up to $2,000."
I ordered a Prius several months ago from a dealership here in Houston. I was informed yesterday that it arrived at the port in California, and that it would be ready to ship to Houston in two or three weeks for me to pick up. My dealer faxed me a list of options that they could install at the port...thought I would share this with other interested Prius buyers:
I got the wheel locks in Canada for 34.00 CAD plus tax. Mats were included and don't know about some of the other items but the glass etching with ltd warranty cost me 200.00 CAD.
pin stripe, vehicle intrustion protection?, protection package and tinted windows weren't even options.
Would have liked tinted windows but it must just be some peel and stick coating? since they aren't likely to replace the glass.
> "My dealer faxed me a list of options " According to past information from the Prius program manager (on the Yahoo board) the ONLY options available from Toyota are listed on the web site. Anything on the dealer's fax that isn't on the Prius web site is probably an inferior dealer "quickie" installed option and almost certainly overpriced.
What a cool car. I am really impressed with it. I did want to tell you all about a sticker that comes in the glove box. It is designed to be put in the back window. It reads, "EAT MY VOLTAGE"
after putting in 93 Octane. The reading normally reads 5.6 with regular 87 octane. We thought we would treat the car to 93 and the reading was ~4.0-4.1 almost immediately. It NEVER read that for the 87 octane.
We got ~700km on ~44l of 87 octane. Will see if there is much difference with 93 octane.
Let me address a couple of issues you raised and I am going to work backwards here. The fact that it starts to roll back on a slope when in D, is normal on automatic transmissions. I don't know for sure about the CVT in the Prius but it does happen in our Camry and other cars and trucks.
I'm really glad somebody with a brain was able to help you. There actually are very strict policies about who can work on these cars. Only techs who have completed very specialized training can touch the cars. Every dealership has at least one service writer who has gone through training as well and he is supposed to be the one to book the appointments for the tech. In reality, this can be difficult in a busy dealership and the first guy you talked to was probably just trying to be helpful. At least he had the good sense to find somebody who knew what they were talking about when you called back.
Let us know how this turns out. I am curious to hear how the repair procedure actually works out. The dealership has a very short period of time to diagnose a problem before the Japanese get involved.
I should have added that there was no indication of PS problems like warning lights etc when we first experienced the 'shuddering'. It wasn't until we had the car parked and restarted that the warning light came on and there was total failure of the power steering making turning the wheel extremely difficult.
guy was 'trying' to be helpful and when I called back saying I couldn't find the PS reservoir he probably thought I was an idiot cause that is what I might have thought.
I did used to do alot of my easy to moderately difficult servicing myself.
I was surprised how much of a rollback there was on a slope as I haven't experienced it in the 7 years we have had this driveway.
One good thing, when we go for service we will ask to take the demo out to compare some of the things we have noticed. I am still surprised about the auto door locks, I would have bet money that the demo did it.
My wife and I test drove this car and are very interested in it.
We are planning to have a child next year, so a car with a good safety rating is very important. I have been unable to find any info in how the Prius rates for safety, etc.
I'm thinking about buying a Prius and was impressed with my testdrive experience, during which the Prius seemed to accelerate reasonably well. But I was wondering if any of you had real world experience driving the Prius in hilly country (I live in San Francisco!) or on long road trips where it had to go up steep and prolonged highway grades?
If anyone has such experience and could comment on how the Prius performed, please post here -- I'm probably not the only person in the group who would be interested in hearing about your experiences.
OK, I'm a car salesman and I am supposed to love it but man this thing is cool. I delivered two of them over the weekend and am so impressed with this car. In my opinion, it is worth the $20500 even if it wasn't a hybrid. It is stylish, roomy, comfortable, quite and full of features. Have you guys figured out the RDS mode on the stereo? Our Avalons have this but it works so much better on the Prius because of the display.
I've had my Prius for a while now and have no idea what the RDS mode is. Saw it and got it to work but could not figure out what it is supposed to do (I just got a rock station of some sort). Can you explain?
Many stations now broadcast on a digital band. In addition to the music/talk, they also can broadcast what kind of station they are long with a message that you can display. By pushing the RDS button, the tuner scans the frequency band to find these stations and categorizes them by type.
Once the stations are found, you can check the different types by pushing the arrow keys at the bottom of the touch screen. This is a neat feature when visiting new cities as long as enough stations broadcast in this manner. I think this will be better in the future when more stations do this.
I was the first person to take delivery of a Prius in Kalamazoo, Michigan seven days ago, on August 28. The dealership has nine more on order. The car is being driven at speeds up to 60 mph until 600 miles are reached per Toyota's new car recommendation. Today at 560 miles, the fuel light came on and "beeped". This resulted in the purchase of 10.1 gallons of 87 octane gas for an average city/highway fuel economy of 55.4 mpg for the first week. The tank was not topped off. The gas price here is presently $1.58 for 87 octane. The Prius delivered over 4 times better fuel efficiency (56 mpg vs. 13 mpg) over the former V-8 SUV, and traveled twice as far on 1/4 as much gas as the SUV. The luxury car like ride and near sports car like handling are astounding for a subcompact. Plus it does it all at 55 mpg. The 258 pounds of torque from 0-400 rpm are all there. This past week I drove the Prius up the area's steepest hills, on dirt roads, and on the interstate for a short interval. The car simply amazes. The lack of engine vibration is another benefit, reducing noise pollution as well as air pollution. This may reduce driving fatigue on long commutes.
I have owned my Prius for almost a month and have 800 miles on it. Today a very disconcerting thing happened as I drove along a straight, dry interstate at 72 mph. As I attempted to move my seat backward, I must have turned the steering wheel at the same time. The car began fishtailing and did not stop for several seconds, a good distance at this speed. I have never had a problem with the steering before. As far as I can understand, it must be a design defect and I believe that I am under a moral obligation to report this event to some federal safety agency. It would be sad if such an otherwise fine car becomes a "death" car.
Don't do anything at 70 MPH that distracts you from driving. This includes adjusting the seat, mirrors, tilt steering wheel or answering the phone. It is possible that you experienced an actual defect or it is possible that you twitched the wheel and sent it into this condition. I've been in a Camry that had a very similar thing happen to it. It was terrifying but preventable.
I did that once (out of my stupidity). I was only going less than 20 mph, it was just a small street in the sub-division. I tried to move my seat back. I must have been doing a little acceleration, because the moment I lifted the lock of the seat ajuster, the seat flew back ward (ok, not flew, but moved back on its own very quickly), almost put me out of the reach of the steering wheel. I tried to hold on to the steering wheel, and as I sort of panic, shifted my foot automatically onto the brake. Well you guessed it, the car come to a screeching hault, and the seat with the adjuster still in the up position, flew forward, run me right into the steering wheel.
Good thing I wasn't doing it on the highway. That was a really stupid my idea on my part. I think the owners manual says something like "never adjust your seat while moving". Well, I didn't think, and learned it the hard way.
Has anyone expressed an interest in performance mods for the car... I wouldn't touch the drive-train, but suspension and wheel upgrades are a must... if you don't have to slow down for corners doesn't your mileage go up?
Now if a cop saw you as you were fishtailing and pulled you over, what do you think he would put on your ticket?
"failure to exercise proper care and control of a vehicle" or "car must have a design defect".
Sorry for your experience BUT even basic driver training tells you to keep BOTH hands on the wheel.
Leave the adjustments for when you are safely stopped.
You do however, make a good observation that has likely also been made on the test track. That being that if you suddenly shift the steering wheel one way or the other it may initiate a fishtail/tipping of a higher centre of gravity vehicle. Much like the SUV problems.
I really doubt the NTSHA would consider it a defect when it doesn't affect NORMAL vehicle operation, but hey, let em know about it anyway. Maybe they'll put rollbars in as a mod since some folks are looking for mods to do.
I just got a call saying my Prius will reach the dealer w/in 10 days, so I'm excited. This car really makes sense.
But I noticed something on the Toyota web site that makes me wonder. In their Prius FAQ, it says the maintenance schedule calls for servicing every 6 months or 7500 miles. That's a heck of a lot more often than other cars. Why so much maintenance? True, it's prepaid for the first 3 years, but after that the cost is going to rack up. And it's kind of inconvenient...
For CAD cars it is 8000km. The first three scheduled maintenance visits are only oil changes. Then it alternates between oil change at one service and some routine maintenance at the next.
Cost of the oil change ~25 CAD, then ~100.00. If anything the oil changes are LESS frequent than some other cars!
"maintenance schedule" would also be what an simple oil change would be.
Hey I'm not even worried about the maintenance schedule and we don't get the 3 years free maintenance in Canada. I only get the first 3 oil changes because I paid 1838.85 for the 6yr/160,000km extended warranty for which they include the 3 changes.
Guess the trade off was that I got cruise/cd/mats standard so they must be offsetting that cost by including your maintenance.
This service is just an oil change and tire rotation. If you are servicing your car less often than that, you will have big problems later on. Toyota is paying for everything listed in the maintenance book up to 3 years or 36K miles on the 7500 mile interval schedule.
My guess is that you will end up with worse milage if you mess with the suspension and wheels. I'm sure Toyota went to a lot of trouble to create the right wheel tire combination to minimize the rolling resistance. Also, energy is captured by regenerative braking when you slow down for those corners.
I've been trying tio find out more about the B and D shift positions. The dealer and website info is that you normally drive in D but use B when downhill for more drag. There has been no mechanical/electrical explanation for this statement since regenerative braking is used in both D and B modes to recover the kinetic energy while minimizing converting it to heat using the regular brakes (at least I hope it still has a good set of regular brakes in case of an electrical failure).
How does the B mode put more drag on the car than the D mode. Nobody seems to be able to explain this (yet). The web site says that the motor/generator recovers 30% of the braking energy as battery regen and 70% to heat. Is a downshift gear brought into play or are there electrical tricks that are used to pull more energy off the wheels (which should result in a higher battery charge rate on downhill).
Maybe someone who has gotten delivery and read the friggin' manual can explain this to me? I'm exchanging e-mails to Bill at Toyota after failure of their chat line to clear this question up.
And thank this site for their spell check feature!!!
There are small generators over the wheels which create extra drag on the drive line when braking. this is what regenerates the energy from braking. In the "B" mode, these are engaged which slows you down when going down hill and regenerates energy to the battery. You can really feel it and it keeps you from riding the brakes down long grades.
When the person who complained about this condition posted his reaction, I was a bit perplexed. In theory, it is not possible to fishtail a front wheel drive car. I was contemplating this on my way in to work this morning in my '90 Corolla SR5. At that moment, the Jeep Grand Cherokee next to me made a sudden move into my lane. Acting under instinct, I hit the brakes and moved to the right. Instinct was quickly overridden by the fact that there was a semi in my blind spot to my right. Just before impact, I swerved back to what was left of my lane. This sudden right and left move combined with a tap on the brakes sent me gyrating within my lane. I would guess the yaw was 15 degrees to each side but going roughly in a straight line.
I guess this is what the poster was referring to. It was a terrifying experience but does demonstrate that it probably was not a defect of the Prius but rather a handling characteristic of a front wheel drive car driven too fast when an evasive maneuver is corrected in the wrong way.
>My understanding of (cliffy1) Sat 09 Sep '00 (06:29 AM) >There are small generators over the wheels which Shame, shame Cliffy... You must have watched the Toyota U. sales training tape. There are NO generators in the wheels - other than the heat generators called brakes. The 40HP electric motor is the Prius primary source of power and the source of regenerative breaking. The motor is permanantly connected to the drivetrain: no clutches, hydraulics - nothing except gearsets and a mongo chain. If the weels turn - the motor MUST turn, and vice versa. That said - ANY time the wheels are turning AND there is NO power applied to the motor - the motor "can" be used as a generator. The Prius THS determines just when to use the power generated by the motor to charge the batteries. In the "gearshift" B position - you are "suggesting" to the THS that, when coasting you would like the "coasting" power to be used. The increased load on the generator (motor) from the use of the generated power produces the same effect as putting an automatic transmission in 2 when coasting. Note: The B position is NOT "second" gear - it ONLY produces the "coasting in 2nd gear" effect. Note 2: The Prius does NOT have a transmission an ANY conventional sense of the word. No gears "shift" - there is NO clutch or torque converter and no hydraulics. Just a planetary gearset and a conventional FWD drivetrain. Bill Powell
Thanks for the info and for sharing it with us. Your explanation seems quite credible but begs the question of who are you and where did you come from? Your name sounds familiar to me. Are you with Toyota? If you are, there are a couple of things I would like to discuss with you. Please e-mail me at sclifford@alexandriatoyota.com
Except for the "small generators" on the wheels comment, it is may understanding that cliffy1 is correct.
To restate, when in "B" the regenerative braking system is activated.
This brings up an interesting question. When in "B" and the battery is fully charged, what is done with the electricity that is generated? Does the electric motor start driving more and the gas engine less?
There was some discussions about this on one of the three Prius groups; however, I do not remember which.
The explanations posted here have not totally agreed with the info provided me to date from Toyota. I asked the same questions to them and got the following response:
> > Thank you for your interest in the Toyota Prius! > > The regenerative braking system is employed during all modes of driving in the Prius. "B" is the position for engine braking. It serves the same function as downshifting on an automatic transmission from "D" to "2". This position is good for going down long downward slopes, and utilizes the electric motor to slow the vehicle and regenerate electricity. > > Please feel free to contact us again if you have additional inquiries. > > Toyota Customer Relations Team >
Note that Toyota's first sentence says that the regenerative braking is utilized in all shift modes. It goes on to say that ENGINE BRAKING is used to retard the car (in the same manner as shifting to 2nd gear does in a normal car. I've asked Toyota to clarify that but their response received today says:
Your inquiry has been escalated to someone who can provide a comprehensive response. You should hear from a member of our Customer Relations team very soon!
Toyota Customer Relations Team >
I'll let you know what they say.
While I don't have any written data, I'll swear that the Toyota dealer rep said that there was a combined motor/transmission under the hood. If this is somewhat correct, perhaps Bill doesn't use 'transmission' to cover a single set of planetary gears to cut down the motor output shaft speed prior to the driveshaft? But I speak from a mountain of ignorance (mostly verbal info from several undertrained dealer reps) when it comes to the Prius.
To answer one question - been mostly lurking here. Was more active here till activity fell off. I have a dealer that has been MOST cooperative while I wait (and wait....) - tosses me the keys to the demo when I show up. Won't do a rental tho :-( Have done about everything possible except disassemble the thing - they might frown on that. Made passing friends with the Prius mechanic who, evidently, has one on order too - a GOOD sign.
Re: What happens in "B" when the power isn't needed? Good question and I haven't been able to get a quilifies answer other than "it charges the battery". Since, by design, it is to "simulate" 2nd gear when going downhill - who knows??? I do know that the car still accelerates in B if you push the "go" pedal so it remains a question awaiting a qualified answer.
Re: "Transmission" - or, in Toyota's words "CVT". I feel that the word "transmission" has become associated with the traditional manual 3, 4, 5 or now 6 speed manual transmission or the more familiar "automatic" transmission. Yes - an "automatic" transmission has planetary gearsets - several of them, in fact, with gear rations being controled throuogh the use of clutches: hence R, N, D, 2 and L. Id doesn't work like that in the Prius. There is a SINGLE planetary gearset and the (electric) motor is "HARD" connected to the drivetrain (chain and several fixed gearsets - differential, half-shafts, wheels). There is no "Neutral" - if the motor turns, the wheels turn. So - the speed of the motor is directly proportional to the speed of the car. No gears "shift" or change. No "transmission" in any commonly (public) sense of the word. To go into "R" causes the THS to electrically reverse the motor. The planetary gear-set divides the power (not torque) between the output shaft, shared with the electric motor and the generator. The coolest thing is that the load on the generator determines how much power passes from the engine to the output shaft. Under heavy load (passing, uphill) the generator is called on to supply MORE power to the motor, causing more power to be transfered to the output shaft. You'd have to see the drawing to appreciate just how "smart" the whole thing is. I have some torque/power split numbers - some from the IEEE site, from a PPT slide set from Argone Labs, some (little) from Toyota doc. and some provided by a Toyota "engineer" on the Yahoo board. The "final drive" is 3.92? and the PSD: "The torque split is a constant and a function of the planetary gear set. However the power split varies depending on rotational speed. Torque split is 72% to final drive and 28% to generator."
If you get the chance, look at a Prius when it's up on a lift. According to the mechanic, almost all service is performed from the underneath - must be skinny mechanics these days because it is VERY tight up front.
I am really close to buying a prius, but there are some things i need to find out that the dealer didn't know:
-- The dealer said that the Prius was selling for about $2000 above MSRP. I seem to remember that the price of $20,450 was non-negotiable. Is the dealer allowed to do this?
-- The dealer said that he had heard about some sort of federal tax deduction or rebate for purchasing a Prius? Does this exist, and can someone fill me in on the details here?
-- California recently passed a law allowing "Clean Air Vehicles" to use the carpool (HOV)lanes. I didn't see the prius listed on the DMV site, but I think that "Clean Air Vehicles" refers to ZEVs, ULEVs, and SULEVs. Since the Prius is a SULEV, can you use it in the carpool lane?
-- What is the current wait to get a prius? Is the wait shorter if you order online?
I know some of these questions have already been answered here, but i didn't immediatly see them when i browsed through the 400 posts. Thanks in advance for your help.
My understanding is that the 'transmission', whatever that means in this case, is continuously variable, thus allowing the gasoline engine to run at a constant speed. Wouldn't this rule out a simple planetary gear set? Or are there two transmissions, one for gas and one for electric?
wmhpowell said, in part:
>There is a SINGLE planetary gear set and the >(electric) motor is "HARD" connected to the >drive train (chain and several fixed gear sets - >differential, half-shafts, wheels). There is no >"Neutral" - if the motor turns, the wheels turn. > >So - the speed of the motor is directly >proportional to the speed of the car.
(1) The Prius is selling at MSRP. Due to the accute shortage of the Prius (only like 7,000 are built for the entire U.S), some dealer might feel this is a big opportunity to cash in, and demand super high prices in inflate their wallet. Same thing is going on for Toyota's MR-Spyder roadster (only 5,000 are made for U.S), some dealers are charging an arm and a leg over the MSRP. But don't let them do that to you. I know there are some honest dealers out there who will sell it at MSRP. Cliffy1 at this forum is one such honest dealer. He probably can give you some more advice on the honest pricing.
"Another benefit to driving a Prius is that you can get a tax deduction," says Jones. "Because of the incredible fuel economy and ultra-low emissions, the federal government allows a qualified clean air deduction up to $2,000."
So it seems like there is indeed a deduction somewhere in the federal tax code. You probably will have to dig it out the detail from the mountain of clause though. As for you state or local tax, I don't know.
(3) somebody from California might better be able to help.
(4) Cliffy1 will have the detail on the waiting list. My guess is about 2-3 months.
Can some one help me out? In all the reading I have done on the Prius, nowhere have I seen any information on the 12 volt battery that is tucked away ever so neatly in the left side (drivers side) of the trunk wheel well. How is this tied into the charging system.
> Is the dealer allowed to do this? I have heard that Toyota is STRONGLY discouraging dealers from gouging on the Prius. Threaten to take your business elsewhere OR demand to speak with the Toyota regional manager. The Prius is MSRP ONLY!
>federal tax deduction See your tax accountant - but I hear that IRS has yet to receive documentation from Toyota.
> can you use it in the carpool lane? I'm not from Cal but have read conflicting info - refer to Cal highway web site.
> ...Wouldn't this rule out a simple planetary gear set? No - in fact having more than one set would require clutches making it a 2 speed box. Refer to message #319 for info. Sit down with a paper and pencil and play. Consider that the load on the GENERATOR changes the POWER shift to the output shaft (wheels). In "that" sense it is an ECVT. Very clever engineering - Toyota is gunning for some awards with this! Simple and potentially very reliable because of few moving parts. Bill Powell
According to a Toyota engineer, the 12V battery is used to "float" (power) the electronics which, obviously, won't like 288V! Time to "short-circuit" some "floating" Prius electrical system rumors (pun intended!).
The 12V battery is NOT charged from the 288V battery pack (a floating rumor) but is ONLY charged when the engine is running; when the "big" generator is spinning.
The 12V battery can NOT start the engine (another floating rumor). The engine is started by the generator, powered from the 288V battery pack.
Oh! The driver-side vent is for the 288V battery module - NOT the 12V battery. Crawl inside the trunk and look. :-)
1. MSRP only - look for another dealer. 2. Tax deduction/credit is still up in the air. 3. Hybrids do not qualify to ride in HOV lanes because they use some gasoline. Go figure! 4. If you order a Prius now, the wait is quoted as 4-5 months.
You would learn a lot by following the Prius groups on Yahoo or Egroups. Spend a day reviewing those before making your decision.
We can sell the Prius for whatever we want to. It would be stupid for us to charge over MSRP. We know you can go to any other dealership and buy it for that. The reason the MR2 and other vehicles get marked up is because dealerships get a finite number of those cars. For example, we were told today that we will only be getting 11 MR2 for the entire 2001 model year. Now, we have a policy against selling anything over MSRP but if we didn't we would set our prices high enough so we were never out of stock.
On the Prius however, we only get vehicles sent to us to fill orders that customers put in on the Internet. We do not get any for stock. The more orders we take, the more cars we get. Its that simple.
Last week, we took several orders. The first batch got e-mail confirmations telling them the wait was 4 to 5 months. The ones later in the week were told 3 to 4 months. I think Toyota may have told the distributor that we would be getting more cars than previously expected. They have also been "underpromising" the cars and I don't think anybody has waited the full time they were told to expect.
One other thing to be aware of: Don't put in an order until you have a deal worked out with the dealership. You can't change your selected dealership. This means that if you select a dealer and then discover that they want $2000 over MSRP, you are stuck.
On a final note, while we can sell them over MSRP, we could sell them under if we wanted to. There seems to be no reason to do this yet. Toyota doesn't give us that much mark up anyway in this car. Because of regional advertising fees on the invoice, we only have $1100 worth of mark-up on a deal that we won't see the money for several months.
As promised here is the text of the message from Toyota responding to my queries on D and B shift positions:
Thank you for contacting Toyota Motor Sales, USA, Inc.
When the accelerator pedal is released or the brake pedal is depressed, the electric motor acts as a generator and converts kinetic energy to electric energy to provide deceleration and recovers the electric energy to change the hybrid vehicle battery. The "D" gear position is used for normal/routine driving. The "B" position is considered the engine braking position. While traveling downhill, this can be used. During high speed driving, you may feel that deceleration by engine braking is smaller than that of an ordinary vehicle. Do not continue normal driving with the selector level in the "B" position for a long time. This may caused decreased fuel economy. To prevent this, again, use the "D" position for normal driving.
NATIONAL CUSTOMER RELATIONS
As I understand this, in B position the engine is used to absorb energy (by compressing air?) through the engine which is directly coupled to the motor/generator, similar to 2nd gear. Whether this is done by clutch or reducing the opening of the exhaust valves, I do not know. Oh for a shop manual for the Prius! (I don't like the sentence, "The "B" position is considered the engine braking position." Why use the word 'considered', if that is actually what happens. Sounds weasel worded. Milt
Comments
We take them with a smile. We'll be glad when they are gone (which they are in this region already) but we never scowl or make the customer feel like they are pulling a fast one on us. The customer is only doing what a customer is supposed to do and that is make the best deal they can. It isn't bait and switch and it isn't unethical to use it. Again, we don't have to like it but you shouldn't have to know that.
http://www.usautonews.com/news/news_story.asp?&id=x&sid=111203&align=
"Another benefit to driving a Prius is that you can get a tax deduction," says Jones. "Because of the incredible fuel economy and ultra-low emissions, the federal government allows a qualified clean air deduction up to $2,000."
Floor mats (carpet) - $70
Wheel locks - $50
custom pin stripe - $90
compact disc deck (changer or single???) - $335
vehicle intrusion protection - $99
vehicle protection package - $200
permavin/glass etch & ltd warr (?) - $200
tinted windows - $145
The price given to me on my vehicle was $19,995 + $485 destination charge.
Hope this helps...
I got the wheel locks in Canada for 34.00 CAD plus tax. Mats were included and don't know about some of the other items but the glass etching with ltd warranty cost me 200.00 CAD.
pin stripe, vehicle intrustion protection?, protection package and tinted windows weren't even options.
Would have liked tinted windows but it must just be some peel and stick coating? since they aren't likely to replace the glass.
Good info to consider.
According to past information from the Prius program manager (on the Yahoo board) the ONLY options available from Toyota are listed on the web site.
Anything on the dealer's fax that isn't on the Prius web site is probably an inferior dealer "quickie" installed option and almost certainly overpriced.
What? No undercoating? :-)
Bill Powell
regular 87 octane. We thought we would treat the car to 93 and the
reading was ~4.0-4.1 almost immediately. It NEVER read that for the
87 octane.
We got ~700km on ~44l of 87 octane. Will see if there is much
difference with 93 octane.
I'm really glad somebody with a brain was able to help you. There actually are very strict policies about who can work on these cars. Only techs who have completed very specialized training can touch the cars. Every dealership has at least one service writer who has gone through training as well and he is supposed to be the one to book the appointments for the tech. In reality, this can be difficult in a busy dealership and the first guy you talked to was probably just trying to be helpful. At least he had the good sense to find somebody who knew what they were talking about when you called back.
Let us know how this turns out. I am curious to hear how the repair procedure actually works out. The dealership has a very short period of time to diagnose a problem before the Japanese get involved.
I did used to do alot of my easy to moderately difficult servicing myself.
I was surprised how much of a rollback there was on a slope as I haven't experienced it in the 7 years we have had this driveway.
One good thing, when we go for service we will ask to take the demo out to compare some of the things we have noticed. I am still surprised about the auto door locks, I would have bet money that the demo did it.
We are planning to have a child next year, so a car with a good safety rating is very important. I have been unable to find any info in how the Prius rates for safety, etc.
Does anyone know where I can find this?
thanks,
Michael
If anyone has such experience and could comment on how the Prius performed, please post here -- I'm probably not the only person in the group who would be interested in hearing about your experiences.
Sorry, I just had to brag.
I've had my Prius for a while now and have no idea what the RDS mode is. Saw it and got it to work but could not figure out what it is supposed to do (I just got a rock station of some sort). Can you explain?
Benjamin
Once the stations are found, you can check the different types by pushing the arrow keys at the bottom of the touch screen. This is a neat feature when visiting new cities as long as enough stations broadcast in this manner. I think this will be better in the future when more stations do this.
Today at 560 miles, the fuel light came on and "beeped". This resulted in the purchase of 10.1 gallons of 87 octane gas for an average city/highway fuel economy of 55.4 mpg for the first week. The tank was not topped off. The gas price here is presently $1.58 for 87 octane. The Prius delivered over 4 times better fuel efficiency (56 mpg vs. 13 mpg) over the former V-8 SUV, and traveled twice as far on 1/4 as much gas as the SUV.
The luxury car like ride and near sports car like handling are astounding for a subcompact. Plus it does it all at 55 mpg. The 258 pounds of torque from 0-400 rpm are all there.
This past week I drove the Prius up the area's steepest hills, on dirt roads, and on the interstate for a short interval. The car simply amazes. The lack of engine vibration is another benefit, reducing noise pollution as well as air pollution. This may reduce driving fatigue on long commutes.
I did that once (out of my stupidity). I was only going less than 20 mph, it was just a small street in the sub-division. I tried to move my seat back. I must have been doing a little acceleration, because the moment I lifted the lock of the seat ajuster, the seat flew back ward (ok, not flew, but moved back on its own very quickly), almost put me out of the reach of the steering wheel. I tried to hold on to the steering wheel, and as I sort of panic, shifted my foot automatically onto the brake. Well you guessed it, the car come to a screeching hault, and the seat with the adjuster still in the up position, flew forward, run me right into the steering wheel.
Good thing I wasn't doing it on the highway. That was a really stupid my idea on my part. I think the owners manual says something like "never adjust your seat while moving". Well, I didn't think, and learned it the hard way.
"failure to exercise proper care and control of a vehicle" or "car must have a design defect".
Sorry for your experience BUT even basic driver training tells you to keep BOTH hands on the wheel.
Leave the adjustments for when you are safely stopped.
You do however, make a good observation that has likely also been made on the test track. That being that if you suddenly shift the steering wheel one way or the other it may initiate a fishtail/tipping of a higher centre of gravity vehicle. Much like the SUV problems.
I really doubt the NTSHA would consider it a defect when it doesn't affect NORMAL vehicle operation, but hey, let em know about it anyway. Maybe they'll put rollbars in as a mod since some folks are looking for mods to do.
But I noticed something on the Toyota web site that makes me wonder. In their Prius FAQ, it says the maintenance schedule calls for servicing every 6 months or 7500 miles. That's a heck of a lot more often than other cars. Why so much maintenance? True, it's prepaid for the first 3 years, but after that the cost is going to rack up. And it's kind of inconvenient...
Cost of the oil change ~25 CAD, then ~100.00. If anything the oil changes are LESS frequent than some other cars!
"maintenance schedule" would also be what an simple oil change would be.
Guess the trade off was that I got cruise/cd/mats standard so they must be offsetting that cost by including your maintenance.
Just a thought! :-)
How does the B mode put more drag on the car than the D mode. Nobody seems to be able to explain this (yet). The web site says that the motor/generator recovers 30% of the braking energy as battery regen and 70% to heat. Is a downshift gear brought into play or are there electrical tricks that are used to pull more energy off the wheels (which should result in a higher battery charge rate on downhill).
Maybe someone who has gotten delivery and read the friggin' manual can explain this to me? I'm exchanging e-mails to Bill at Toyota after failure of their chat line to clear this question up.
And thank this site for their spell check feature!!!
I guess this is what the poster was referring to. It was a terrifying experience but does demonstrate that it probably was not a defect of the Prius but rather a handling characteristic of a front wheel drive car driven too fast when an evasive maneuver is corrected in the wrong way.
Careful everybody.
>There are small generators over the wheels which
Shame, shame Cliffy... You must have watched the Toyota U. sales training tape.
There are NO generators in the wheels - other than the heat generators called brakes.
The 40HP electric motor is the Prius primary source of power and the source of regenerative breaking. The motor is permanantly connected to the drivetrain: no clutches, hydraulics - nothing except gearsets and a mongo chain. If the weels turn - the motor MUST turn, and vice versa.
That said - ANY time the wheels are turning AND there is NO power applied to the motor - the motor "can" be used as a generator. The Prius THS determines just when to use the power generated by the motor to charge the batteries.
In the "gearshift" B position - you are "suggesting" to the THS that, when coasting you would like the "coasting" power to be used. The increased load on the generator (motor) from the use of the generated power produces the same effect as putting an automatic transmission in 2 when coasting.
Note: The B position is NOT "second" gear - it ONLY produces the "coasting in 2nd gear" effect.
Note 2: The Prius does NOT have a transmission an ANY conventional sense of the word. No gears "shift" - there is NO clutch or torque converter and no hydraulics. Just a planetary gearset and a conventional FWD drivetrain.
Bill Powell
To restate, when in "B" the regenerative braking system is activated.
This brings up an interesting question. When in "B" and the battery is fully charged, what is done with the electricity that is generated? Does the electric motor start driving more and the gas engine less?
There was some discussions about this on one of the three Prius groups; however, I do not remember which.
---
Michael
>
> Thank you for your interest in the Toyota Prius!
>
> The regenerative braking system is employed during all modes of driving
in the Prius. "B" is the position for engine braking. It serves the same
function as downshifting on an automatic transmission from "D" to "2". This
position is good for going down long downward slopes, and utilizes the
electric motor to slow the vehicle and regenerate electricity.
>
> Please feel free to contact us again if you have additional inquiries.
>
> Toyota Customer Relations Team
>
Note that Toyota's first sentence says that the regenerative braking is utilized in all shift modes. It goes on to say that ENGINE BRAKING is used to retard the car (in the same manner as shifting to 2nd gear does in a normal car. I've asked Toyota to clarify that but their response received today says:
Your inquiry has been escalated to someone who can provide a comprehensive
response. You should hear from a member of our Customer Relations team
very soon!
Toyota Customer Relations Team
>
I'll let you know what they say.
While I don't have any written data, I'll swear that the Toyota dealer rep said that there was a combined motor/transmission under the hood. If this is somewhat correct, perhaps Bill doesn't use 'transmission' to cover a single set of planetary gears to cut down the motor output shaft speed prior to the driveshaft? But I speak from a mountain of ignorance (mostly verbal info from several undertrained dealer reps) when it comes to the Prius.
Milt Kostner
Have done about everything possible except disassemble the thing - they might frown on that.
Made passing friends with the Prius mechanic who, evidently, has one on order too - a GOOD sign.
Re: What happens in "B" when the power isn't needed? Good question and I haven't been able to get a quilifies answer other than "it charges the battery". Since, by design, it is to "simulate" 2nd gear when going downhill - who knows??? I do know that the car still accelerates in B if you push the "go" pedal so it remains a question awaiting a qualified answer.
Re: "Transmission" - or, in Toyota's words "CVT". I feel that the word "transmission" has become associated with the traditional manual 3, 4, 5 or now 6 speed manual transmission or the more familiar "automatic" transmission.
Yes - an "automatic" transmission has planetary gearsets - several of them, in fact, with gear rations being controled throuogh the use of clutches: hence R, N, D, 2 and L.
Id doesn't work like that in the Prius. There is a SINGLE planetary gearset and the (electric) motor is "HARD" connected to the drivetrain (chain and several fixed gearsets - differential, half-shafts, wheels). There is no "Neutral" - if the motor turns, the wheels turn.
So - the speed of the motor is directly proportional to the speed of the car. No gears "shift" or change. No "transmission" in any commonly (public) sense of the word. To go into "R" causes the THS to electrically reverse the motor.
The planetary gear-set divides the power (not torque) between the output shaft, shared with the electric motor and the generator.
The coolest thing is that the load on the generator determines how much power passes from the engine to the output shaft. Under heavy load (passing, uphill) the generator is called on to supply MORE power to the motor, causing more power to be transfered to the output shaft. You'd have to see the drawing to appreciate just how "smart" the whole thing is.
I have some torque/power split numbers - some from the IEEE site, from a PPT slide set from Argone Labs, some (little) from Toyota doc. and some provided by a Toyota "engineer" on the Yahoo board. The "final drive" is 3.92? and the PSD:
"The torque split is a constant and a function of the planetary gear set. However the power split varies depending on rotational speed. Torque split is 72% to final drive and 28% to generator."
If you get the chance, look at a Prius when it's up on a lift. According to the mechanic, almost all service is performed from the underneath - must be skinny mechanics these days because it is VERY tight up front.
Bill POwell
-- The dealer said that the Prius was selling for about $2000 above MSRP. I seem to remember that the price of $20,450 was non-negotiable. Is the dealer allowed to do this?
-- The dealer said that he had heard about some sort of federal tax deduction or rebate for purchasing a Prius? Does this exist, and can someone fill me in on the details here?
-- California recently passed a law allowing "Clean Air Vehicles" to use the carpool (HOV)lanes. I didn't see the prius listed on the DMV site, but I think that "Clean Air Vehicles" refers to ZEVs, ULEVs, and SULEVs. Since the Prius is a SULEV, can you use it in the carpool lane?
-- What is the current wait to get a prius? Is the wait shorter if you order online?
I know some of these questions have already been answered here, but i didn't immediatly see them when i browsed through the 400 posts. Thanks in advance for your help.
wmhpowell said, in part:
>There is a SINGLE planetary gear set and the >(electric) motor is "HARD" connected to the >drive train (chain and several fixed gear sets - >differential, half-shafts, wheels). There is no >"Neutral" - if the motor turns, the wheels turn.
>
>So - the speed of the motor is directly >proportional to the speed of the car.
(2) tax deduction. Here is an article.
http://www.usautonews.com/news/news_story.asp?&id=x&sid=111203&align=
"Another benefit to driving a Prius is that you can get a tax deduction," says Jones. "Because of the incredible fuel economy and ultra-low emissions, the federal government allows a qualified clean air deduction up to $2,000."
So it seems like there is indeed a deduction somewhere in the federal tax code. You probably will have to dig it out the detail from the mountain of clause though. As for you state or local tax, I don't know.
(3) somebody from California might better be able to help.
(4) Cliffy1 will have the detail on the waiting list. My guess is about 2-3 months.
Good luck.
I have heard that Toyota is STRONGLY discouraging dealers from gouging on the Prius. Threaten to take your business elsewhere OR demand to speak with the Toyota regional manager. The Prius is MSRP ONLY!
>federal tax deduction
See your tax accountant - but I hear that IRS has yet to receive documentation from Toyota.
> can you use it in the carpool lane?
I'm not from Cal but have read conflicting info - refer to Cal highway web site.
> What is the current wait
Try the Prius website:
http://prius.toyota.com/buy/order_notice.htm
Bill Powell
No - in fact having more than one set would require clutches making it a 2 speed box.
Refer to message #319 for info. Sit down with a paper and pencil and play. Consider that the load on the GENERATOR changes the POWER shift to the output shaft (wheels). In "that" sense it is an ECVT.
Very clever engineering - Toyota is gunning for some awards with this! Simple and potentially very reliable because of few moving parts.
Bill Powell
Time to "short-circuit" some "floating" Prius electrical system rumors (pun intended!).
The 12V battery is NOT charged from the 288V battery pack (a floating rumor) but is ONLY charged when the engine is running; when the "big" generator is spinning.
The 12V battery can NOT start the engine (another floating rumor). The engine is started by the generator, powered from the 288V battery pack.
Oh! The driver-side vent is for the 288V battery module - NOT the 12V battery. Crawl inside the trunk and look. :-)
Bill Powell
waiting for THE call...
2. Tax deduction/credit is still up in the air.
3. Hybrids do not qualify to ride in HOV lanes because they use some gasoline. Go figure!
4. If you order a Prius now, the wait is quoted as 4-5 months.
You would learn a lot by following the Prius groups on Yahoo or Egroups. Spend a day reviewing those before making your decision.
On the Prius however, we only get vehicles sent to us to fill orders that customers put in on the Internet. We do not get any for stock. The more orders we take, the more cars we get. Its that simple.
Last week, we took several orders. The first batch got e-mail confirmations telling them the wait was 4 to 5 months. The ones later in the week were told 3 to 4 months. I think Toyota may have told the distributor that we would be getting more cars than previously expected. They have also been "underpromising" the cars and I don't think anybody has waited the full time they were told to expect.
One other thing to be aware of: Don't put in an order until you have a deal worked out with the dealership. You can't change your selected dealership. This means that if you select a dealer and then discover that they want $2000 over MSRP, you are stuck.
On a final note, while we can sell them over MSRP, we could sell them under if we wanted to. There seems to be no reason to do this yet. Toyota doesn't give us that much mark up anyway in this car. Because of regional advertising fees on the invoice, we only have $1100 worth of mark-up on a deal that we won't see the money for several months.
Thank you for contacting Toyota Motor Sales, USA, Inc.
When the accelerator pedal is released or the brake pedal is depressed, the
electric motor acts as a generator and converts kinetic energy to electric
energy to provide deceleration and recovers the electric energy to change
the
hybrid vehicle battery. The "D" gear position is used for normal/routine
driving. The "B" position is considered the engine braking position. While
traveling downhill, this can be used. During high speed driving, you may
feel
that deceleration by engine braking is smaller than that of an ordinary
vehicle.
Do not continue normal driving with the selector level in the "B" position
for a
long time. This may caused decreased fuel economy. To prevent this, again,
use
the "D" position for normal driving.
NATIONAL CUSTOMER RELATIONS
As I understand this, in B position the engine is used to absorb energy (by compressing air?) through the engine which is directly coupled to the motor/generator, similar to 2nd gear. Whether this is done by clutch or reducing the opening of the exhaust valves, I do not know. Oh for a shop manual for the Prius! (I don't like the sentence, "The "B" position is considered the engine braking position." Why use the word 'considered', if that is actually what happens. Sounds weasel worded.
Milt