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This is a pain in the butt.
I use CR for quick "I need it now" info when I don't have the time or desire to really look into something. My 02' A6 4.2 with Sport/pearl/premium is above the cost of other cars in the category. Boy do I enjoy driving the car! The specs on safety, performance, COMFORT, acceleration, and Quattro are why I paid top dollar for my car. I like it.
On a side note, I'm a big Home theater and Audio fan. If I took CR's recommendations for granted I wouldn't have enjoyed HDTV in my area of the country (Southwest Ohio) and I surely would not have conceived of spending that amount of money on "just a TV".
Personal quote of the day
"Knowledge is king.... Knowing when to use it is priceless"
Dre
We're also looking for people who recently switched one way or the other and what they like/dislike about what they're driving now.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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I, too, believe their jockeying the engine lineup will simply cause further confusion as well as dilution of the product line. The 02 A4 is encroaching upon the A6 in terms of style and dimension; VW/Audi should consider carefully and clearly define and distinguish their vehicles. What, there are now the 1.8T, the 2.7T, the 3.0, the 4.2 (A6), (S6) & (A8 ?), the W8, and the RS6 new powertrain!?! While I do enjoy having many of the choices, this is becoming ridiculous.
Pick a market segment(s) and produce vehicles accordingly (w/o discriminating--please send us the RS6). The more people VW/Audi hope to please, the less each product will satisfy.
Just my two cents, and I hope I did not ramble too much.
BTW, my 01 A6 4.2 has 6000 trouble free miles...knock on wood. Just wish we had an Autobahn ourselves.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
'Big noises on turning steering wheel, when at a stop light or in park. I do not seem to hear that when in drive. Or is it that I am not hearing it? There also appears to be snapping/grinding sound on the left front area occasionally. The audi folks here did not find anything wrong since it comes on occasionally. The sound is like the undercarriage hitting and grinding against something - not a possibility since it usually has enough and more clearance from the ground when this happens. But it is usually during a change in the grade on the rgade when the wheel position abruptly changes. I ruled out hitting the ground on numerous occasions... Any suggestions/ideas? Thanks'
Great!
The fact that your $40K+ automobile has endured 13,000 miles without "issues" hardly constitutes reliability. Please repost when you have 150K miles.
I'm stunned/surprised/disappointed/amazed at what folks who lease (or occasionally buy) cars in this price range will endure. With regular oil changes and other scheduled maintenance, there's no reason why any vehicle shouldn't run 100K trouble-free miles. Twice that isn't unusual, for many pedestrian vehicles. Some think that if one pays more, one should get more. The fact that the car is fun to drive is interesting, but not all "fun-to-drive" cars need warranties for their entire lives.
It's not only about what the visit to the dealer costs.
It's that you have to go there at all.
Visiting the dealer eats time, even if they have a warmed-up loaner waiting for you and all the paperwork is filled out before you arrive (as if). If the baseline expectation is that the car "only" has to go to the dealer monthly, that's what I've learned to refer to as an "opportunity for improvement."
Imagine a 2.7T with the reliability of a Lexus.
That is the bar.
Yeah, it's been raised.
We all buy cars that fit our life style and bank account. As one writer pointed out several posts ago, reliability is not the primary discriminator for some. Will I see 150K miles or more on this car? Doubtful. Not because I won't take care off it, but rather, because something will come along (perhaps another Audi) in a few years that will have the features I'm looking for then. In the meantime I do expect perhaps six years and 100K miles of problem free performance from this car.
No point in entering the Lexus/Audi debate. I am reminded, though, that when I was in high school the endless debate among the car crowd was Mustang versus Camaro. Two cars so similar it was virtually impossible to discriminate between them (and nobody in high school drove either). Yet, the debate raged on. Now in our old age we can type out our views, exerting a little less energy and expelling a lot less hot air.
I agree, mostly, with the sentiments that a $40K car should be reliable. But I think that at any price point reliability should be at a certain minimum, the extra bucks should be for content not reliability. I see no reason why a $15K car should be any different in its reliability index than a $115,000 car. But, logically the more expensive a car (or, better said, the greater its content) the more stuff there is that COULD go wrong.
But I still think build quality and reliability SHOULD not be price dependent. I just have lower content expecations of a $20K car than an $80K car (and content includes horsepower, not just power accessories and the like).
My friend's Infiniti J30 is nice and it seems to visit the dealer about as often as my Audi. And, had I not had brake issues, I would not have visited the dealer at all except for oil changes (in 23K miles). That probably doesn't qualify as enough miles to pass the Lexus reliability standard. But I honestly don't know.
So, the serious question still stands -- are the Lexus cars, for example, the reliability kings that we are told?
And, is reliability more important than a soul? I want increased reliability. I think I am demanding it and I think my Audi's continue to out perform themselves with each new one I own. But, I am comparing perhaps in a vacuum. My 1978 Audi 5000 compared to my 2001 Audi A6 -- uh, er, well, there is NO comparison in any regard other than they both came with tires and a steering wheel.
What is the definition of quality?
If the customer at this price/performance point is expecting monthly visits to the dealer, all is well.
On the other hand, if the customer thinks that their performance sedan is a fun appliance that can be bought and used 2 - 3 years with only a few visits to the dealer, a different degree of satisfaction will result.
Happiness = Expectations - Reality.
I guess the solution is to reduce one's expectations.
Or not.
While service on the Lexus was excellent, I needed new rotors after about 20K and they wanted me to pay for them. I complained, and they paid for them. It needed pads about every 15-20K. A motor in the climate control system broke. At 55K, the driver's seat track broke. I don't think any of these are terrible things. But I hardly consider that trouble free. It got serviced every 7.5K, and the average cost was about $300! And I brought my own oil!
Knock-on-wood, I've had my 2.7T for a year and 17.5K, and it may need a new auxiliary fan for the engine.
My point is most cars, of any sort, aren't trouble free. But as to quality, my 2.7T has quality that my Lexus could only dream about. I didn't hate driving the Lexus, but I never enjoyed it. I smile every time I get behind the wheel of my 2.7T. It's a BEAUTIFUL car. The interior is nicer than my home. The materials far surpass those in the Lexus.
But most importantly, it's a joy to drive. It's built like a tank. Quality? Go take a 20-mile ride in a 2.7T or 4.2, and then do it in a Lexus and talk to me about quality.
I knew going into the deal that the 2.7T might not be as trouble free as the Lexus. But it has. I was willing to trade that for a car that has driving characteristics that makes it a pleasure. You pay your money, and you make your choices. But for me, the 2.7T far better defines luxury and quality than did the Lexus. A sofa might be comfortable and reliable, but I'd sure hate to have to drive it.
I have never owned a Japanese car -- most of my friends have had at least one, however. The person with the Acura seems to believe that the Acura is the most reliable car he has ever had -- I don't know the history of his auto purchases.
I, too, would say my Audis continually raise my expectations, as each one betters the last. My particular dealer service has been great and has exceeded my high expectations. So I don't follow the logic that the "solution" is to lower my expectations. Indeed as each Audi continues to be of "higher quality" -- I continuously raise my expectations of the next Audi I will acquire.
At this point, I am thinking I will have a 2003 model Audi of some sort within 9 - 15 months from now. And, I think I am expecting EVEN MORE out of it than I have received hertofore.
My wife doesn't want her 30 month lease to end (shes at month 21 or 22) and says if the TT is not made available in 2003, she wants to get the last 2002. Other than tires and oil and normal maint, her TT has been virtually "perfect" and soulful -- which as I mentioned before is 1/2 of what some auto "journalists" say about some of the high line Japanese cars.
But, like Tim says -- you pay your money and you take your choice. And, Tim's experience with his prior and current cars has at least answered my question as to the "legendary" reliability of Lexus -- but I also realize that his experiences are his and do not necessarily represent all customers of either brand.
And, I still do not see the relationship between price point and quality, reliability or "fit and finish" or any of the other attributes generally discussed. Why would the quality of a $15,000 car be less than one that is priced at a much higer number. Price, in my experience, buys content -- for all I know a Neon has both the highest quality and reliability of anything on the planet. My expectations of such a car with respect to quality and reliability are no lower than my expectations for my $54,000 Audi A6.
My wife's going to kill me.
As far as the quality issues posts, I, like many others in this forum, have owned way too many vehicles over the past decade or so: Honda Civic 1500 GL; VW GTI 16V; Ford Taurus S.H.O.;Mazda MX-6 V6; BMW M3 (E36); Audi A4 Avant 2.8; Acura 3.2 TL; Audi A6 4.2 currently. While luck and care play a role, I cannot recall any serious mechanical difficulties with ANY of my vehicles except the Ford (which I kept for 10 months). I think the GTI needed a new exhaust system, but that was covered under warranty. Both Honda products were flawless as were the Audis.
Today's products, in general, are so superior in craftsmanship that "quality issues" are nearly totally a matter of luck. This statement applies to those products from the U.S., Germany, and Japan, with the South Koreans making great strides thereto. So, again, I agree with Mark that price really purchases content expectations as opposed to overall reliability.
There is usually a measurable difference in content as the price rises, including "feel", for example he turn indicator stalk; window switches; seat comfort...Go sit in a Ford or Mopar product priced at $25k, then check out a $30k Audi--there's simply no comparison.
But as far as reliability is concerned, better to spend your energy on other issues...
When my wife wanted a new car, we strayed away from Toyota, looked at Honda (more bland than Toyota) and picked a Mitsubishi. Much more entertaining, on-the-par with quality, etc. Here's where Audi gets involved: Our Mitsu dealer also sells Audis and while her car was getting serviced/detailed they gave us an A6 to drive for the day. Now I've never really considerd a luxury brand mainly because sticking 50K miles a year on a $50K car makes little sense. We were very impressed with the A6 as far as quality, driving, and the looks are conservative yet very attractive in my book. So we've been shopping and here's where I'm hung-up: Two year old models with very low miles are quite reasonable. What's your opinions on the certified cars? I prefer the 4.2, but the wife is satisfied with the 2.7T so who knows which model we'll narrow it down to. Cost wise, I can get a 4.2 used for about the same price as a new 2.7T which seems like a tasty deal. This car will only see 10K per year, mainly just trips as we'll keep the Mitsu for errands and my summer vehicle to keep the miles off my Jeep. Are the certified cars really as good as they say, or should I just buy a new one? Or will 10K per year be worse on the car than driving it (theory posted above)? I'd like to keep it maybe 3 or 4 years without doing too much to it or living with the dealer as the closest one is an hour drive.
Thanks,
Brant
Tim. . .?
I love my 2.7T, and think it's a wonderful car. Cost no object, I'd probably prefer the V8 4.2 though. The only 4 things that the 2.7T offers that aren't available in the 4.2 are a 6-speed, slightly better weight distribution, the nominal ability to put 3 small humans in the back seat, rather than 2 large ones, and an extensive number of after market modifications available to boost engine output. The 4.2 offers better looks, much more "Presence" and a wonderful, smooth powerful V8. For me, those would be more important, if they didn't add several thousand to the cost of the car.
Brant, I noticed in your post that you're thinking of moving from a V8 to a 6. I checked Edmunds' pricing on the 6 cyl. S-Type, and optioned out to compare with a typical 2.7T, it would cost about as much as the 4.2. So unless one of the 4 things I described to above are important, you might want to consider the 4.2.
My comparison of the 2.7T with the S-Type will have to be a little superficial because I haven't driven the S-Type. I think I can safely say both are among the most beautiful sedans on the road. I'd be hard pressed to say one looks better than the other does, I think it's simply a matter of preference. The fit and finish of both exteriors are marvelous. This hard to say, but I'd have to give the edge to the A6 judging from the cars I've looked at. I think the tolerances are a little closer, and the typical paint job a little more jewel like.
Similarly, both interiors are beautiful and luxurious. I know from my car that the materials and finish of the A6 interior are among the best. Everything I've read suggests the same can be said for the S-Type. Reports I've read suggest the ergonomics of A6 are superior. And from my ride in the LS and gawking into S-Types, I'd say there's definitely more room in the A6 if that's important.
As to performance, the 2.7T is significantly faster than the 6 cyl. S-Type, I don't have the data in front of me, but I've read numerous road tests and comparisons, and that's the gist of it. In, fact, I think it'll run with the V8 S-Type in acceleration, though both the 2.7T & 4.2 have limiters that govern them to about 130mph. If you're comparing automatics, the 2.7T has aggressive gearing and 250 ft-LB as low as 1750 rpm. If you put your foot into it, it flys. The 4.2 is pretty much as fast, and even more robust. It's even more relaxed at speed on the highway.
Most road tests I've read that have compared the A6 2.7T or 4.2 with the S-Type came out heavily favoring the handling of the A6. Not having driven the S-Type, I can't offer a direct comparison. I can say the 2.7T handles beautifully. It's nimble, secure and can tolerate quite a bit of stupidity. I don't have the sport suspension, but wish I did. I would strongly recommend it for any who find the sport seats comfortable. And since you're coming out of any S-Type with the sport suspension, you particularly might find the A6 without the sport package too soft. With either suspension, I think you'll find the ride compliant and well controlled.
And of course there's quattro. It's not magic, but it provides margins for traction that are simply not available with any RWD car, no matter what electronics it has. And quattro doesn't just help the car in snow. It's just as valuable on dry pavement where it produces very balanced handling, and works in cooperation with the various stability and braking electronics to produce very secure handling and high limits. In the rain the car feels almost better than on dry pavement. But always remember that all cars are limited by the tires they have on them. They need to be the right type, and poor conditions radically degraded the limits of ANY car.
On balance, as beautiful as the S-Type is, I think either the 2.7T or 4.2 is just as beautiful and a better car and better value.
http://www.onecryo.com/onecryo/how.htm
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2000/audi/a6/4drstd28sedan/prices.html
You can take a look at my above comments regarding my preference for the 4.2. If you wanted to keep the car a long time, that would be my choice. I don't recall the name of Audi's certification program, but I got one as a loaner, and it was in poor shape. It obviously had not been gone over by a mechanic. It was dirty and stunk of cigarettes. The sideview mirror control was broken off and the Tip wouldn't upshift in Tip mode. I think the car had been abused. While I haven't investigated it in detail, my impression is that the certification program is just a form of extended warranty. If so, it should be compared to other 3rd party extended warranties that can be purchased. And as Mark has said, I think it would be prudent to have some form of extended warranty when owning either of the cars. A new quattro tranny will cost about 10K; new turbos are about 6K, etc.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I stongly urge you to consider an Audi lease product and to get a new car.
Just a thought.
- The suspension - Yes, the new '02 standard suspension HAS been reworked and is firmer. A little less body roll, and less float. Didn't have a chance to take it on the interstate and didn't have it over 60, but I'd expect this would make everything feel even more stable on the highway. The rear end seemed less firmed than the front. Someone tweak the front-end geometry? I didn't check the tires, could be that too. Damping is firmer, and you can feel bumps just a l i t t l e more, but rebound is beautifully muted. No more undulation. Definitely a little more tossable. An improvement.
-The Steering- Yes, they DID reduce the boost on the '02 steering. Don't know if it's all the new relay, or they changed something else. The change is dramatic, but not huge. Maybe 20% more feel, 20% more effort. Better centering characteristics, which makes me question if they changed anything else. Works in combination with the firmer suspension to make the overall car more tossable and even more stable. Any downside? You can feel a slight bit of FWD. An improvement.
- The Engine - The 3.0 is a NICE V6! A LOT more than the 2.8 and more than adequate. But I know the 2.7T, the 2.7T is a friend of mine, and frankly, the 3.0 is no 2.7T! Just doesn't have that low down grunt. You've got to get it over at least 3500 RPM to really have stuff happen. But it's very happy to do so, and has plenty of oomph once you get it there. Not that it's a slug from a start. I remember a brand new '98 I test drove, and how S L O W it moved off the line. The 3.0 feels 3 times stronger. Plus, it sounds good. Really nice sounds over 3500 rpm! Like I said, more than adequate, just not a 2.7T or 4.2. It's also important to note that with only 5.5K on it vs. my 18K, the engine hasn't had the benefit of an additional 13K of seasoning. My 2.7T continues to improve.
- The Tip Tranny - Strange, the sport mode in the 3.0 A6 is entirely underwhelming, while in the 3.0 A4 it seemed to make a significant difference. Differences in gearing? I couldn't detect much advantage in leaving it in sport. Also you can flick it from the sport mode into neutral. (Guess how I found out?)
- The TBW - My 3.0 loaner had turbo lag! 'Nuff said.
- The Brakes - OK. If you haven't driven the 2.7T or 4.2 with the big (4 pot?) calipers, you'd probably not make a distinction. I understand the 2.7T now gets the same brakes as the 3.0. While less warping problems are welcome, the 2.7T/4.2 brakes are mighty powerful, and the new brakes are distinctly less so. There's no way that I'd want to trade my brakes, less warpage, or not.
- Noise Level - Maybe there's less wind noise, but there sounded like there's more road noise. Maybe because of less wind noise? Without taking it on the highway, it's hard to say.
- The Interior - A big step down. Materials don't look as good, and I don't think they are. IMHO, the detail changes are also detrimental to the aesthetic. I couldn't figure out how to use the new easier to use radio/CD, etc. This could be simple idiocy, but it doesn't look as good in the console. The new wood trim over it does nothing. The fit doesn't look as good. And the rings are also a major detraction. The steering wheel is cheap.
And last, but not least, the BUFFALINO! I'm going to start a petition drive to save the Buffalino. I sure don't want it on my seats! I believe this leather now appears on all mortal A6's. The S6 is an exception evidentially. It's not comfortable, but at least it doesn't look good or seem to wear well. My loaner had whatever Melange is now, and at about 5.5K the seats were more worn and soiled than in my '01 vanilla seats at 18K. The calfskin in my 10/2000 build vanilla are beautiful hides. They're taught, dry feeling with a slight pebbled texture. They're firm, but very comfortable, and have worn well and don't soil easily. These are things that I doubt the Buffalino will ever be accused of. OK Audi AG, get those hides off our seats, and back on the Buffalinos! Oh, and the seat didn't feel as comfortable too, but of course, it hasn't had my fat [non-permissible content removed] in it for 18K miles either.
All this doesn't mean the '02 has a crappy interior. It's just that instead of being twice as nice as BMW's, it's only 20% nicer.
- Summary - Do I want to give up my '01 2.7T? No way, Jose! I love my car! The engine, the brakes, the interior, etc. are all superior to the '02 3.0 IMHO. And it's plusher. And while the tossable characteristic is very nice, maybe I just prefer plusher. And objectively, I don't know if the limits are any higher despite the added tossability. I still found myself going faster in the 2.7T, just not knowing it.
I have now driven three 2.7T's -- and what with a 225HP TT in my garage, I can tell you that the Audi turbos have so very little turbo lag it is as you say. My 4.2 V8 too has turbo lag -- but I always assumed it was the computer in the tiptronic calculating what my "intentions" were with that last depression of the throttle.
The 2.7T A6 and A4 (aka S4) that I drove (and my wifes TT) are lag free as far as I can tell -- the 2.7T in the A6 was incredible (this was in the manual tranny version).
Sorry to have ever doubted you.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
I talked with my dealer Friday about ordering a new (by new I mean 2003) allroad -- and I wanted to know what was up with the 2.7T version with a 6spd -- I saw the announcement that the 4.2 allroad was coming to the US (5spd tip only). I also had read (in European Car magazine) that there was a new engine coming out in the next model year which was supposed to be a turbo and a V6 -- as we have discussed on this forum, I am hoping for a 2.9T engine and timcar has speculated that we may see the VW W8 engine instead. Anyway the dealer salesrep whom I know very well, said they have many allroads in stock but NO 6spd manuals because they "sit and sit and sit for months before someone buys them."
I speculated that that was because no one knows they exist -- which of course is a part of the problem.
But again we are at the dawning of the death of the manual transmission it so appears -- and my screaming voice in the wilderness doesn't seem to mean a thing. Since we all vote with our dollars, and since I do have an automatic myself (but I had no choice if I wanted the V8, he said in his own defense) -- well I assume that most of the members of this board have automatics.
I do not hate my 5spd tipronic, but every time I get a loaner manual Audi it is like "falling in love again" -- sorry about that.
Anyway, why the lack of interest in the manual (a rhetorical question)? And, if the RS6 will go to 100kph in under 5 seconds with an automatic, I guess the question is irrelevant. Perhaps I'll end up ordering a 6spd manual allroad and keep it until the sun blows up. Or, perhaps the new 6spd tiptronic will make it through the ranks of Audi and stick shifts will be only seen in museums -- like crank starters.
Sigh -- I'm becoming my parents.
P.S. Any one watch any of the Sebring race this weekend? Audi took 1-2 - kind of fun to watch them zoom past 911's and Corvettes like they were standing still (I know, different class, but it was still fun!).
My parents' Ming Blue/Black 3.0Q is in. I think they got every option except Navigation & Parktronic. The salesman called last night. They'll be picking the car the first week in April.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
My prediction is that there will be more and more vehicles (of all types) that will be made available with four driven wheels and electronic braking and stabilty systems. I don't get why so many people rail on and on against four driven wheels when there is so much evidence that having all wheels powered has benefits in safety, performance, economy and fun.
I think I'll just stay here in friendly terrirtory for a while.
Audi telematics, was delayed and delayed due to "software" and in-car phone issues (digital vs analog I presume) -- it is now available (On*Star) with the April production run of 2002's, so widespread availability of this is probably a 2003 certainty, perhaps bi-Xenon lights for all the "family," tire pressure monitoring, maybe front parktronic, etc. etc. More feautres and options in other words. Perhaps front and rear climate controls -- things like that.
I think you'd be hard pressed to call the 2003 model year a huge departure from the 2002's -- but I've been wrong before. The product that we have been told about that is in the pipeline would seem to indicate small changes for 03. Hopefully others on this forum will report in.
Now, on the other hand, I think that the changes in the 2002 model year (minor styling, transmissions, 3.0 engine, etc.) were much much more than cosmetic. Yet, I agree what has happened since the "new body style" A6's has been mostly evolutionary.
No one is saying, probably because they don't know, but I keep wondering what will happen with the 2.7T A6 what with the W8 Passat's arrival (in the US) in April 2002. It just seems to me that Audi would not want to have a W8 in an "Audi like" vehicle (AWD, Bi-Xenons and some more up market stuff as standard) with an 8 cylinder engine priced $10,000 below their 6 cylinder version. The W8 is coming with about 275 HP and the 2.7T has 250 HP. I keep wondering what the heck will be under the hood of two of the A6's -- it makes me wonder if the
2.7T may not become the "base" A6 engine. But this is only speculation and perhaps wishful thinking on my part.
I do not consider the Passat (as it is currently designed) a comparable vehicle to the 2.7T