Hmm....kids...spilling drinks...french fries...junk from Home Depot. I'm getting a visual here :sick: .....I don't think I'll be lining up to buy the TSX from you when you sell! :P
My first call of the day from my bluetooth phone doesn't transfer to handsfree. I am told that "phone is in use" then I have to give transfer command. Subsequent calls from the phone work fine unless there is a significant time delay to my next call. Why this initial call problem?
I am starting to accept your theory on the Japanese horses and German horses.
I think the Germans understate their horse power measurements. I have mentioned before that my friend has a 1998 BMW 528I and everytime we race I beat him, but not by far he is right on my tail. The Bimmer only has 197 bhp and the TLS has 260 bhp; go figure that out.
My next car purchase will be determine by the bonus I get; I am hoping that this quarter will be pleasing towards Hedge Fund and Private Equity investments.:)
Infiniti's are definitly not for me, they age badly and the M series tail lights are a disaster to look at.
I am leaning towards Acura, BMW or a Lexus.
TL- changes will have to take place. RL- changes will have to take palce. GS 300- waiting for the GS 350 with AWD BMW- 530 ?????? still questioning reliability.
I get a kick out of that TL commercial which shows the car in the desert doing 360's. How do they get a fwd car to handle like rwd? Creative camera techniques?
What matters is that you beat the 525. What is the distance of the race that you have with the 525? That may determine the results.
What still kills me is that everyone is still measuring performance solely on the single measurement of horsepower. There are so many darn other factors. Otherwise we should be driving Buick Lucerne's with 275 hp.
I totally agree that the Infiniti styling is does not have longevity. Look at the previous versions of the "J"..."I"....or even the prior generation of the "G". [Also...I saw the new Lexus IS on the road. At first I mistook it for a Mazda 6 series. It does not look like the ads. ]
X-Type = VIP treatment, am I missing something here? I am not trying to be rude, but from my personal experience in NY and CT, driving a x-type is similar to driving an accord or camry.
If you read the fine print for the Lexus IS 300, you'll see that Toyota uses high friction brake pads which they say will need to be replaced every 20,000 mi. and the rotors replaced every 50,000 mi.
Guess what ?? The TL is BACK on my shopping list !!!!!!
If TL stands for " Touring Luxury " , the IS should actually be IS/ATT ( in shop/all the time)
I know there is more to it but it just kills me to see him on my tail. I personally think I should have been at least two car lenghts in front of him.
WOW- the IS looks like a Mazda 6, actaully thats not bad, the 6 is really a handsome car.But I see your point- a $45,000 car been mistaken for a mere mortal car coming in at 20K.
I think Mazda designs the most handsome cars out of Japan-if they could just open a Luxury division to satisfy the egoes of our society.
I am not saying that the Mazda 6 is an ugly duckie....but the point is that the Lexus IS did not look like the car that everyone was drooling over in the preproduction marketing campaign. I would characterize it to be a previous generation IS morphing into a Mazda6 with a sprinkle of the 2005 tsx.
As for Mazda opening up a luxury division. Well....Mazda is owned by Ford....and they own Jaguar also.
'roar1'...the maintenance factor of the TL is what convinced me away from a Infiniti G35. I was about to buy a G35 coupe then gave up after thinking about how much it would cost to replace the brakes at 20k and rotors at about 30k... To top it off....you cannot rotate the tires as the front and rear have different sized tires....with the anticipated wear of less than 20k. Ouch....along with less than 20MPG.
There's an old rally racing technique whereby you apply both gas and brake on a FWD car to simulate a power slide. Otherwise, slamming on the brakes and, at the same time, turning the steering wheel should get you into a 360 spin! :P
Unfortunately, because Honda/Acura overstated it in 2004/2005 on virtually every model they sell and now there is a standard measurement procedure that they have to comply with.
Frankly, I am surpricsed that the TL didn't end up at something like 230, instead of 258, based upon my butt meter. I bought the car for lots of other reasons, but I seriously doubted it had 270 horsepower when compared to other cars I test drove at the time (225 hp 330i especially). I think if Acura had rated my new 911S (Porsche rates it at 355), I'd be driving a 500 horsepower car. It certainly has about 50% more oomph than the outgoing NSX.
I'm not going to trade in my TL, but I think Acura should be embarassed at this GM-like "overpromise, under deliver". Especially when they are STILL using TV ads for both the TL and RL that start with claims of 270 and 300 horsepower. If Acura feels that horsepower is so important to the marketing of these cars, they should have had the integrity to measure it accurately. Hell, even GM and Ford had models whose ratings were increased under the new standards. What does that tell you??
My understanding is that there are several methods of measuring and reporting horsepower ratings. Just that Acura was using a 'gross' method versus the 'net' method. If they were lying...wouldn't there be lawyers starting up a class action lawsuit?
"My understanding is that there are several methods of measuring and reporting horsepower ratings. Just that Acura was using a 'gross' method versus the 'net' method. If they were lying...wouldn't there be lawyers starting up a class action lawsuit?"
I believe that if this was simply a change in methodology (grsoss vs. net), all manufacturers would be restating their ratings, presumably in equal proportions to Acura. My understanding is that the decision to standardize resulted from abuses by certain manufacturers to publish ratings based upon their own self measured methodologies that were liberal at best, knowingly inaccurate at worst. Unfortunately, Honda/Acura were the most severe offenders. As far as I know, no other manufacturer has had to restate virtually all of their models by the amount Honda and Acura have. Shame.
What offends me the most is that this ISN'T an innocent mistake. Not when every Acura TV and media advertisement prominantly states the vehicles horsepower rating and makes it a big selling point. You and I may not have changed our purchase decision to buy a 258 horsepower TL instead of a 270 one - but Acura sure as hell wanted us to think we were getting 270 hp. Or 265 in the case of the MDX or 300 in the case of the RL. And, don't think for a hearbeat that they didn't know they were employing puffery. They knew exactly what they were doing.
I'm not saying you are wrong, but how do you know that they knew they were employing puffery?
Because they still are. I saw two TV ads last night for the TL and MDX, with both referring to the old, inflated figures. Apparantly, Acura is going to do just enough to comply with the letter of the law on publishing the correct figures. The spirit of the law and marketing integrity are apparantly non-priorities.
Do you recall that Mazda offered to buy back RX8's when their actual horsepower rating came in at something like 238 instead of their estimated 250 when the car was first introduced? They immediately came clean and took corrective action.
The Acura Tl's horsepower rating is not soemthing that is very high on my list of priorities. But being treated with respect and company integrity is. I live by that rule with my own company, so I don't feel guilty about expecting the same for Honda's "premium" division.
I know they are probably too classy to do it, but if I were V.P of marketing for BMW, I might consider putting an ad in the WSJ that had no text. Just a picture of a Shetland Pony with the Acura logo underneath and a picture of a Clydesdale with the BMW logo underneath.
I would not know the difference if they stated that the car had 270 hp but the actual car had only 200 hp. Test drive it and other cars being considered to see compare performance. They use the stats as a guideline. It is all just marketing.
Some standards association defined the original methods for measuring HP. The manufactures then interpret them and find conditions or tests within those methods that are optimal for their vehicles. Subsequently the industry determined that there were areas of ambiguity and came out with revised tighter guidelines.
How about this. Your accountant discovers a tax loophole that saves you some money. The government subsequently closes that loophole. Should you be considered or be called a tax cheater?
Like I said, to me, it's all about integrity. Acura may not have done anything "illegal", but they were one of the offenders that caused the standards to be revised. And BMW, Mercedes, Porsche and other premium manufacturers were not employing the same "loopholes".
P.S. How about this. Porsche rates the 2005 911S at 0-60 in 4.6 seconds. The three major independent road tests I've seen came back with 4.3, 4.1 and 3.9. My dealer explained that Porsche has never published or advertised a time that couldn't be achieved under just about the worst possible testing conditions. A slightly different approach than Acura, wouldn't you agree? And one that, in an ever so small way, contributed to earning my business.
As far as I know, no other manufacturer has had to restate virtually all of their models by the amount Honda and Acura have. Shame.
I would be more offended if Honda / Acura restated only selected models. My take is that there was not only single horsepower rating methodology. Acura previously selected a 'gross' method and biting the bullet to recast all models all at the same time to a 'net' method. I am unaware of any requirement that they had to make the change.
Porsche has never published or advertised a time that couldn't be achieved
I view that there is a difference between posted 0-60 time (drive time) and horsepower (output). 0-60 time follows a single universal established measurement method. Horsepower happen to have multiple measurement methods.
Habitat1...I am not saying you are wrong or incorrect. From my perspective....it is a change in measurement methodology.
I have to side with Habitat on this one - at least somewhat. I can't say that I know for certain what Acura intended, but it is clear they were stretching the limits. Part of what attracted me to Acura in the 1st place was the advertised 270 hp, and I'm sure it (even subconsciouly) entered into my decision-making.
I'm just glad there's a more consistent system now.
whether it has 258 or 270, who cares, it still turns in better 0 to 60 times and 1/4 mile times than most every car in its class. Who actually uses all those horses all the time, there is a whole lot more about the TL to love than just its engine.
It's all just about marketing, and getting an edge wherever you can. Marketing & advertising, it's all window-dressing, or puffery as you call it. In fact, Webster's New World Dictionary defines puffery as "exaggerated praise, as in advertising" It's all part of the game, par for the course. They all fudge around with numbers like HP, 0 - 60 times, lateral g, etc. No need to get all huffy and self-righteous over it.
Toyota had to re-state a bunch of their HP ratings too, if I'm not mistaken.
If you bought the car simply because you fell for their advertising, then you're a fool anyway. Don't blame the manufacturers.
Bodble, I don't know if there are truth in lending laws in Canada, but they do exist in the States. I am a consumer advocate, and I believe there should be truth in advertising as well. I don't think Honda/Acura would have voluntarily restated the HPs if there were no complaints against it or oversight by the regulators. If people are fooled by advertising and end up buying an inferior or unsafe product, the manufacturer should be penalized. Are you in the advertising business? :P
"It's all part of the game, par for the course. They all fudge around with numbers like HP, 0 - 60 times, lateral g, etc. No need to get all huffy and self-righteous over it."
I'm with kennyg8 here - if Canada's standard for business integrity is that low, please keep it north of the border. As I said, I hold mself, my company, my employees and even my kids to a higher standard - so I'm not "self righteous", I just have a low tolerance for a lack of integrity. Where I come from, that's not a bad thing.
bhelsdon
whether it has 258 or 270, who cares, it still turns in better 0 to 60 times and 1/4 mile times than most every car in its class. Who actually uses all those horses all the time, there is a whole lot more about the TL to love than just its engine.
I partly agree with you here - the TL has many positive attributes beyond raw performance - which is why I bought one. But I disagree that the "270" horspeower TL is at the top of it's class in performance. The 225 hp 330i was noticably quicker than the TL 6-speed. Even my 11 year old 190 hp Nissan Maxima SE 5-speed was tested at nearly the same 0-60 speed as the 2004 TL. There are many factors that go into performance besides horsepower. Vehicles weight, torque, etc. But the TL's performance is a far cry from what you would expect from a BMW with 270 hp. Try a 5 year old 4,000 lb 282 horsepower 540i against a brand new "300" hp, 4,000 lb RL. The difference is night and day. So, given that Acura is well aware that there is a horsepower war going on among luxury performance sedans, IMO they consciously elected to inflate their ratings. Didn't fool me, but I still don't like it in principle.
They were obviously allowed to advertise the HP under the old system. May have been a loophole in the system, who knows, but I think they just played within the rules allowed. Now they tightened up the rules, and Honda is complying. Toyota has had to do the same. Advertising is advertising. It's basic premise is exaggeration. It's bending the truth. Not outright lying, but just bending it.
Don't worry, pal. Where you come from does not intrinsically have any higher integrity than us here "north of the border". I know your spouse is a lawyer...maybe that explains the tone of your posts. But whatever. But I think you are making quite a leap that Honda has done something illegal. The last time I checked, there has been no class-action suit, public outcry, Royal Commission, nor Senate enquiry.
Not sure how being located up in Canada enters into the equation here. Give 'Bodble2' a break...and I hope you don't end up beating me up because I live in California.
Ok...ok...I am starting to get an understanding of your interpretation of a breach of integrity. I respect your perception....that I am ok with that and I do value your integrity and standards.
Let me throw this out for discussion...straight car talk. 270hp under the 'new' current reporting standard would 'perform' differently car-to-car. Even within the same maker. As an example....wouldn't a 270hp 3 series perform differently from a 270hp 5 series? So wouldn't it make sense that the TL horsepower feel and perform different from other cars?
Just to add fuel to the fire, what is the 0-60 time for an auto. equipped TL ?? I believe that I saw 7 secs. published somewhere. I must say that when I test drove a TL, it didn't seem much different in power than my '02 Maxima. Actually, I thought the Max. had a little more low end grunt. When you look at the torque curves for the two vehicles, the max torque for the Max. comes earlier @ 4400 rpm vs. 5000 for the TL.
ps .For reference, '02 Max. 0-60 6.9 secs ( auto ), 6.21 secs ( 5-spd. ). ( Car and Driver 10/02 )
I am so glad you asked ! Car and Driver clocked it at one time (I even provided a link). Then Motor Trend has another as you indicate. Same magazine will clock it at different times. Another will clock it at other times. So what does it mean? Actual results will vary. And you have to wonder...would 12 hp really change the results materially.
delmar; The Car and Driver time I quoted of 6.9 was for a '02 Max. It's not unusual for a potential future owner of a near luxury sport sedan to want to know the 0-60 times. I believe most of us on this thread are" performance buffs ". I agree. I believe the TL is a well rounded vehicle.
bhelsdon; The Motor Trend time of 6.9 for a "04 TL was from their website.
What can I say ????? There appears to be quite a discrepancy in times published.
I'm thinking of buying an '06 TL, but what few people talk about here is that the '04 TL received only an "average" reliability score from Consumer Reports, based on reports from tens of thousands of car owners. This is a new low for Honda which over the years has prided itself on its constant excellent reliability ratings, in CR and elsewhere. That, plus the numerous complaints people have had on this and the problems board about rattles galore, drivetrain vibrations, premature wear of the interior, seats, etc., etc. My only question is whether Acura has fixed most of these problems since '04. We won't have the CR reliability figures for the 05s until next April, the annual auto issue. But I do hear people still complaining about the same kinds of problems on the '05s, though perhaps less often than the '04s.
What's your take on this? It may be significant that even though the '04s were only average in reliability, owner satisfaction with the car, according to CR, was tops. So people obviously like the car, despite its problems.
I have an 04 auto w/nav. The production date is feb 04. It now has 42k. Warped rotors are the only problem I have had. Other than that the car has been flawless.
Easy answer. What you hear on this site is only the worst. You will hear only of issues people are encountering and seeking solutions. You rarely will hear of the non-issues.
Most of the items you mentioned (rattles, vibrations) could very easily be identified on a test drive. Now...when I buy my cars...I first use the 'tester car' then I drive the specific car which I am purchasing for final inspection. Don't let the salespeople tell you cannot test drive a car because they are attempting to have it leave the lot at 5 miles on the odometer.
As for the interior....go to an Acura dealership and look at the used cars on the lot as well as the tester...to make your own assessment. And of course...look at other car interiors for comparison.
Comments
Very curious. I used to have a CR-V and it meant something...what about the TL?
:confuse:
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This is my 3rd week of ownership. I'm extremely happy and suddenly I always have a lunch date! Everyone wants to ride the TL. LOL!
I must admit, though, I catch myself thinking about all that room in the Pilot...
I think the Germans understate their horse power measurements. I have mentioned before that my friend has a 1998 BMW 528I and everytime we race I beat him, but not by far he is right on my tail.
The Bimmer only has 197 bhp and the TLS has 260 bhp; go figure that out.
My next car purchase will be determine by the bonus I get; I am hoping that this quarter will be pleasing towards Hedge Fund and Private Equity investments.:)
Infiniti's are definitly not for me, they age badly and the M series tail lights are a disaster to look at.
I am leaning towards Acura, BMW or a Lexus.
TL- changes will have to take place.
RL- changes will have to take palce.
GS 300- waiting for the GS 350 with AWD
BMW- 530 ?????? still questioning reliability.
360's. How do they get a fwd car to handle like rwd? Creative camera techniques?
What still kills me is that everyone is still measuring performance solely on the single measurement of horsepower. There are so many darn other factors. Otherwise we should be driving Buick Lucerne's with 275 hp.
I totally agree that the Infiniti styling is does not have longevity. Look at the previous versions of the "J"..."I"....or even the prior generation of the "G". [Also...I saw the new Lexus IS on the road. At first I mistook it for a Mazda 6 series. It does not look like the ads. ]
I am not trying to be rude, but from my personal experience in NY and CT, driving a x-type is similar to driving an accord or camry.
Guess what ?? The TL is BACK on my shopping list !!!!!!
If TL stands for " Touring Luxury " , the IS should actually be IS/ATT ( in shop/all the time)
I personally think I should have been at least two car lenghts in front of him.
WOW- the IS looks like a Mazda 6, actaully thats not bad, the 6 is really a handsome car.But I see your point- a $45,000 car been mistaken for a mere mortal car coming in at 20K.
I think Mazda designs the most handsome cars out of Japan-if they could just open a Luxury division to satisfy the egoes of our society.
As for Mazda opening up a luxury division. Well....Mazda is owned by Ford....and they own Jaguar also.
Obviously only time will tell, but I think the M35/45 is kind of understated, which will go a long way towards not looking "old."
Frankly, I am surpricsed that the TL didn't end up at something like 230, instead of 258, based upon my butt meter. I bought the car for lots of other reasons, but I seriously doubted it had 270 horsepower when compared to other cars I test drove at the time (225 hp 330i especially). I think if Acura had rated my new 911S (Porsche rates it at 355), I'd be driving a 500 horsepower car. It certainly has about 50% more oomph than the outgoing NSX.
I'm not going to trade in my TL, but I think Acura should be embarassed at this GM-like "overpromise, under deliver". Especially when they are STILL using TV ads for both the TL and RL that start with claims of 270 and 300 horsepower. If Acura feels that horsepower is so important to the marketing of these cars, they should have had the integrity to measure it accurately. Hell, even GM and Ford had models whose ratings were increased under the new standards. What does that tell you??
I believe that if this was simply a change in methodology (grsoss vs. net), all manufacturers would be restating their ratings, presumably in equal proportions to Acura. My understanding is that the decision to standardize resulted from abuses by certain manufacturers to publish ratings based upon their own self measured methodologies that were liberal at best, knowingly inaccurate at worst. Unfortunately, Honda/Acura were the most severe offenders. As far as I know, no other manufacturer has had to restate virtually all of their models by the amount Honda and Acura have. Shame.
What offends me the most is that this ISN'T an innocent mistake. Not when every Acura TV and media advertisement prominantly states the vehicles horsepower rating and makes it a big selling point. You and I may not have changed our purchase decision to buy a 258 horsepower TL instead of a 270 one - but Acura sure as hell wanted us to think we were getting 270 hp. Or 265 in the case of the MDX or 300 in the case of the RL. And, don't think for a hearbeat that they didn't know they were employing puffery. They knew exactly what they were doing.
Because they still are. I saw two TV ads last night for the TL and MDX, with both referring to the old, inflated figures. Apparantly, Acura is going to do just enough to comply with the letter of the law on publishing the correct figures. The spirit of the law and marketing integrity are apparantly non-priorities.
Do you recall that Mazda offered to buy back RX8's when their actual horsepower rating came in at something like 238 instead of their estimated 250 when the car was first introduced? They immediately came clean and took corrective action.
The Acura Tl's horsepower rating is not soemthing that is very high on my list of priorities. But being treated with respect and company integrity is. I live by that rule with my own company, so I don't feel guilty about expecting the same for Honda's "premium" division.
I know they are probably too classy to do it, but if I were V.P of marketing for BMW, I might consider putting an ad in the WSJ that had no text. Just a picture of a Shetland Pony with the Acura logo underneath and a picture of a Clydesdale with the BMW logo underneath.
Some standards association defined the original methods for measuring HP. The manufactures then interpret them and find conditions or tests within those methods that are optimal for their vehicles. Subsequently the industry determined that there were areas of ambiguity and came out with revised tighter guidelines.
How about this. Your accountant discovers a tax loophole that saves you some money. The government subsequently closes that loophole. Should you be considered or be called a tax cheater?
Like I said, to me, it's all about integrity. Acura may not have done anything "illegal", but they were one of the offenders that caused the standards to be revised. And BMW, Mercedes, Porsche and other premium manufacturers were not employing the same "loopholes".
P.S. How about this. Porsche rates the 2005 911S at 0-60 in 4.6 seconds. The three major independent road tests I've seen came back with 4.3, 4.1 and 3.9. My dealer explained that Porsche has never published or advertised a time that couldn't be achieved under just about the worst possible testing conditions. A slightly different approach than Acura, wouldn't you agree? And one that, in an ever so small way, contributed to earning my business.
I would be more offended if Honda / Acura restated only selected models. My take is that there was not only single horsepower rating methodology. Acura previously selected a 'gross' method and biting the bullet to recast all models all at the same time to a 'net' method. I am unaware of any requirement that they had to make the change.
I view that there is a difference between posted 0-60 time (drive time) and horsepower (output). 0-60 time follows a single universal established measurement method. Horsepower happen to have multiple measurement methods.
Habitat1...I am not saying you are wrong or incorrect. From my perspective....it is a change in measurement methodology.
I'm just glad there's a more consistent system now.
Toyota had to re-state a bunch of their HP ratings too, if I'm not mistaken.
If you bought the car simply because you fell for their advertising, then you're a fool anyway. Don't blame the manufacturers.
"It's all part of the game, par for the course. They all fudge around with numbers like HP, 0 - 60 times, lateral g, etc. No need to get all huffy and self-righteous over it."
I'm with kennyg8 here - if Canada's standard for business integrity is that low, please keep it north of the border. As I said, I hold mself, my company, my employees and even my kids to a higher standard - so I'm not "self righteous", I just have a low tolerance for a lack of integrity. Where I come from, that's not a bad thing.
bhelsdon
whether it has 258 or 270, who cares, it still turns in better 0 to 60 times and 1/4 mile times than most every car in its class. Who actually uses all those horses all the time, there is a whole lot more about the TL to love than just its engine.
I partly agree with you here - the TL has many positive attributes beyond raw performance - which is why I bought one. But I disagree that the "270" horspeower TL is at the top of it's class in performance. The 225 hp 330i was noticably quicker than the TL 6-speed. Even my 11 year old 190 hp Nissan Maxima SE 5-speed was tested at nearly the same 0-60 speed as the 2004 TL. There are many factors that go into performance besides horsepower. Vehicles weight, torque, etc. But the TL's performance is a far cry from what you would expect from a BMW with 270 hp. Try a 5 year old 4,000 lb 282 horsepower 540i against a brand new "300" hp, 4,000 lb RL. The difference is night and day. So, given that Acura is well aware that there is a horsepower war going on among luxury performance sedans, IMO they consciously elected to inflate their ratings. Didn't fool me, but I still don't like it in principle.
Ok...ok...I am starting to get an understanding of your interpretation of a breach of integrity. I respect your perception....that I am ok with that and I do value your integrity and standards.
Let me throw this out for discussion...straight car talk. 270hp under the 'new' current reporting standard would 'perform' differently car-to-car. Even within the same maker. As an example....wouldn't a 270hp 3 series perform differently from a 270hp 5 series? So wouldn't it make sense that the TL horsepower feel and perform different from other cars?
ps .For reference, '02 Max. 0-60 6.9 secs ( auto ), 6.21 secs ( 5-spd. ).
( Car and Driver 10/02 )
So bhelsdon, ( or anyone else ) what is the 0-60 for a 3rd gen.TL / auto.
Simple question, simple answer.
Thanks roar1
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=7062&page_number=2
Heck...if I wanted speed....I would select a Subaru WRX STI of 4.6 seconds.
Even if the TL was slower....my personal choice would be the TL. There are many other amenities which I prefer.
I believe the TL is a well rounded vehicle.
bhelsdon; The Motor Trend time of 6.9 for a "04 TL was from their website.
What can I say ????? There appears to be quite a discrepancy in times published.
What's your take on this? It may be significant that even though the '04s were only average in reliability, owner satisfaction with the car, according to CR, was tops. So people obviously like the car, despite its problems.
Most of the items you mentioned (rattles, vibrations) could very easily be identified on a test drive. Now...when I buy my cars...I first use the 'tester car' then I drive the specific car which I am purchasing for final inspection. Don't let the salespeople tell you cannot test drive a car because they are attempting to have it leave the lot at 5 miles on the odometer.
As for the interior....go to an Acura dealership and look at the used cars on the lot as well as the tester...to make your own assessment. And of course...look at other car interiors for comparison.