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Seriously, while I agree that cars in general have advanced in technology and - in some areas - reliability, I would hardly look at a Suzuki whatever and think I was getting the same 150k+ mile car as a Honda Accord. Even if all cars are a bit improved over their predecessors, there is just as large of a spectrum of quality out there as there ever was, IMO. And apparantly, in a lot of other peoples opinions, too. Take the look at the average resale value of a 3-4 year old GM vs. a 3-4 year old Honda/Acura. Couldn't have anything to do with quality, could it??
Every make of cars has anecdotal evidence of superior and subpar performance. But taken on the whole, all contemporary nameplates will give far better service, with far fewer problems than past vehicles. The possible area of execption being electronics, which had limited impact on older cars.
If we all ascribed to your theory, everyone would be driving Honda Accords...but we're not, are we. That's because everyone has their own set of subjective criteria that they apply to their purchases, and that's what (thankfully) gives us additional alternatives to the very fine Hondas you own and obviously prefer.
Resale value is a different subject entirely. The Chevy Impala is probably as reliable as a Honda Accord nowadays. What hurts resale value on American Cars mosly nowadays is the all the discounting on the price. You know 3,000 dollar factory rebate. Not that I would buy an Impala but I;m just saying and I am an Acura owner. American Cars have gotten better with reliability over the past 7 years. I have my negative thoughts on reliability about certain manufacturer's like VW, Suzuki, Kia, Mercedes-Benz, Audi and Jaguar.
My point in my previous post was that quality is not the "ne plus ultra" determinant of resale value. Case in point: I own 3 Mercedes Benz, among the highest cars in retained resale value. But are they the highest in quality as defined by the "honda" standard of reliability? Not even close. So therefore other forces are also at work to determine why people will pay more for one used car, as opposed to another.
The final point I'd make on this issue, then hopefully put it to rest, since we're waaaay off topic here, is that no matter what your perspective is on these issues, this is a great time in our automotive history to be a consumer, because we've all got great cars to chose from. No matter what you like, there's a good seat for every [non-permissible content removed]!
It is absolutely awesome! A pet peeve of mine is watching drivers fiddle with their phones while on the road! The phone is used by the speakers in the car and the clarity is unbelievable! It was fun to call my brother from the TL to let him know we were on our way to Thanksgiving dinner.
I would highly reccommend this feature to your new TLs. FUN! FUN! FUN!
Thanks for your input!
Others and I have found that the tires on our new TLs have been over the recommended 32 psi (AT/standard wheels) which can make the ride a bit firmer.
I have my windows tinted (50%-65%-65%)on my TL 04
with navigator and it is very accurate so far!The
job has been done by the Acura dealer.
Maybe, by then, the stereo will be able to play WMA audio files too.
Later...AH
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The January '04 C&D is a 6-speed manual 530i with Sport Pkg. 0-60 mph in 6.7 seconds. 1/4 mile in 15.2 secs. at 93 mph. Pulled 0.90g on 300 ft skidpad. Braked from 70 mph in 167 ft. MSRP for their loaded car was a whopping $56,145!
This issue also has their test of new Acura TL: 6-speed manual, LSD, all-season tires. 0-60 mph in 5.7 secs. 1/4 mile in 14.4 secs. at 99 mph. Pulled only 0.81g. Braked in 189 ft. MSRP of $35,195.
________
From the looks of those tests, the TL is about the quickest FWD sedan out there, but unfortunately, it is still marginal in handling and braking compared to the better RWD sports sedans. Even my old Legend GS 6-speed posted better handling and braking numbers, as I recall.
I am glad, however, that Acura finally came out with a 6-speed version. Takes the worry out of their "is it fixed yet" automatic. And at least it gives driving enthusiasts something to consider a bit more than before.
Historically, the TL is very poor in braking. The TL-S tested by C&D in October 2002 needed 192 feet. Forget the 530i (171 feet) or the M3 (161 feet), even the portly BMW X5 SUV managed to stop in 172 feet. The TL-S stopping distance was only 3 feet less than the Honda Pilot (195 feet)
I'm not sure what's up with the TL, but better brakes and suspension are clearly needed. Honda has the know how - the S2000 stops in 3 feet less than the Boxster S. (162 vs. 165).
Historically, the TL is very poor in braking. The TL-S tested by C&D in October 2002 needed 192 feet. Forget the 530i (171 feet) or the M3 (161 feet), even the portly BMW X5 SUV managed to stop in 172 feet. The TL-S stopping distance was only 3 feet less than the Honda Pilot (195 feet)
I'm not sure what's up with the TL, but better brakes and suspension are clearly needed. Honda has the know how - the S2000 stops in 3 feet less than the Boxster S. (162 vs. 165).
A lot better deal than your dealer is offering you. Go back and beat on them some more!
48month term with 18,500 option at end of lease.
My total cost to drive for 4 years is about $26,500.
Remember those quotes are just that, when you sit down and sign the papers then let us know how you did. What is the lease options at the end of those leases.
KarenS/Senior Host/Owners Clubs
I'll be sure to remember that!
As a comparison, BMW offers the ZHP (Performance package) for $3,900 installed at the factory.
Not trying to flame anything, but just curious (I suppose the flip side is that Acuras come fully-loaded whereas BMWs are all stripped down and options jack the price up).
Will they be recovered? If so, when?
Also: many of the car reviews posted are just boiler plate intro information on the TL and are not really road tests which measure actual tests and driving dynamics.
Is it true that the 0-60 mph time is greater than 6 seconds in the 6.3 range instead of being 5.7 as originally speculated? Bloated weight? Peaking torque cure on the 270hp ?
Is the TL really worth $9K (real price difference after discounts) more than the 6-speed Accord Coupe?
As far as your question about comparing it to the Accord Coupe, I must insist that you are comparing apples and oranges. With 2004, the TL moved up WAY upmarket from Accord. It is better than Accord in pretty much every category:
* power,
* suspension,
* comfort,
* quality of ALL interior materials: better leather, plastics, real aluminum, real carbon-fiber, great-looking fake wood, etc.
* safety: stability system, Xenon lights on both low and high beams;
* technology: drive-by-wire, much better stereo, trip computer, bluetooth, extra features on navigation system such as 3D sun position sensor, etc.
* standard equipment: memory seats and mirrors, power lumbar adjustment, side mirrors that tilt when reversing, tinted side mirrors to reduce glare, standard cargo nets, auto-dimming rearview mirror, etc.
* interior and exterior design,
* warranty,
* dealer experience, and so on, and so on.
And where do you get the $9K price difference??? You can't compare invoice to MSRP! The 2004 TL is now selling for as much as $2,000 under MSRP and, given how quickly the dealers started deep discounting, you can expect it to sell for $1,000 over invoice 3-6 months from now. Assuming that Accord sells for $500 over invoice, the price difference with the best deal you can make on TL is $6,500 ($33,195 minus $26,660).
You posted:
* power,
TL 3.2l V6 270hp@6200 238 ft-lbs.@5000
Accord 3.0 V6 240@6250 212 ft-lbs.@5000
Not much of a difference....
* suspension,
Agreed.
* comfort
I think both vehicles are equally comfortable.
* quality of ALL interior materials: better leather (SAME LEATHER but perforated), plastics (TAKEN FROM THE ACCORD), real aluminum (AGREED, aftermarket avail.), real carbon-fiber (AGREED, aftermarket avail.) , great-looking fake wood (AGREED, aftermarket available), etc.
* safety: stability system, Xenon lights on both low and high beams;
Agreed...
* technology: drive-by-wire (ACCORD V-6 IS DRIVE BY WIRE TOO), much better stereo (100 watts more powerful, AGREED), trip computer (AVAILABLE IN THE NAV SYSTEM ON ACCORD), bluetooth (AGREED), extra features on navigation system such as 3D sun position sensor (ACCORD HAS SUN SENSOR TOO), etc.
* standard equipment: memory seats and mirrors (AGREED), power lumbar adjustment (MANUAL IN ACCORD), side mirrors that tilt when reversing (AGREED), tinted side mirrors to reduce glare (NOT SURE IF ACCORD DOESN'T HAVE THIS TOO), standard cargo nets ($70 AFTERMARKET), auto-dimming rearview mirror (AGREED), etc.
* interior and exterior design,
Exterior: AGREED
Interior: DISAGREED. Both look very good.
* warranty (7yr/100k warranty with $0 deductible is $850'ish from Curry Honda),
* dealer experience, and so on, and so on.
I've met Honda dealers that were just as nice, if not more so than Acura.
Accord also gets better fuel economy and runs on Regular, compared to TL using Premium.
Both are excellent cars. As for prices, most folks in my area are getting $1000 below MSRP on TL NAV (no options). Accord V-6 NAV is going for Invoice plus $200 (options included: wheel locks, mud flaps and trunk net).
Acura TL w/NAV $34195
Honda Accord EX V6 NAV $26241
That yeilds a difference of $7951...Almost $8000 bucks. Not to mention, above TL prices are based on whether the car is on the lot.
Would it be worth replacing them with Bridgestone Turanza LS-Z's which had a much better performance rating and still get a 40,000 mile warranty? They seem to be a better choice for the 6-speed than the Potenza "summer tires." Since I haven't tried any of these, I'm open to suggestions before ordering my TL. Some companies here will give a few bucks if you can get the original tires off before the miles rack up.
1. Acura is making a lot of TLs;
2. Competitors' cars (G35) are getting deep discounts
So Acura dealers have to keep up.
I spoke to the dealer that offers $2,000 off the TL with NAVI today. The guy said that TLs are plentiful, just don't ask him for a TSX!
All the nearbuy dealerships have 10-20 non-NAVI TL's sitting on their lots and most have at least couple NAVI ones. Some dealers are still trying to create an illusion of short supply on NAVI ones, but the reality is that it takes at most three weeks to get it, if there isn't one in stock.
You will only see the price holding up in areas with very little competition because of small number of Acura and Infinity dealerships. But if you're on the East coast, it's mostly the buyer's market for the TL.
Where and what dealer? I went through carsdirect.com and cars.com today and heard from 4 or 5 dealers in the San Diego area. The best offer was $34,895 including destination and performance package. Thats $300 off MSRP, $545 for destination charges and $395 for protection package. Grand total of discount $1240.
Additionally, I was going to go through the COSTCO auto buying program. Through this program, certain dealers would give $500 off MSRP, NAVI for $1821 and the protection package for $330. Problem is only certain dealers use the COSTCO program.