inherently make more power because they generally run higher compression ratio's and they also have a shorter stroke and bigger bore to reach the same displacement. This gives the piston less travel and thereby can reach higher RPM's easier from what I have researched. =o)
That's great news for the Camry. I didn't think Toyota would be able to upgrade that soon. There were mainly three things I didn't like about the Camry -- the underpowered V6, the lack of a 5-speed auto, and the ungainly bloated styling. Now if it is true that Toyota has recified the first 2, I, for one, can live with the styling (provided they don't raise prices).
Usually the Dealers will try to hold untill the last minute to clear the old stocks. I just bought mine on October. Wish the news leaks out earlier so that I can wait. DOHC 24 Valves with VVti- That's more high tech than the Accords V6 which is SOHC with Vtec.
vvti and vtec are essentially the same technology. the difference is that the DOHC adds power to the top end, where the SOHC has more low end torque. the accord's 4-cyl motors now have i-VTEC, which kicks in at lower RPM than VTEC or vvti.
although DOHC designs generally have higher end power versus the same engine with SOHC, the difference is minimal with use of a VTEC or VVTI technology since you can very the cam timing anyway. Also, SOHC is much more efficient, less complex, and less costly, so if you can make the same or more power with SOHC then its actually a better way to go.
There is one thing about the way Honda equips it's Accords and Civics that I find irritating. In order to get the maximum safety features (air bag array) protection in the new Accord, the customer must opt. for the EX model(look carefully at the list of standard features). This means you must take a vehicle with a moon roof which resuts in a loss of headroom, and I despise moonroofs. By contrast, Toyota offers an option package(Camry) that includes the full array of airbags on every model line.Honda does this to either 1. Force the customer to buy the more expensive model to get the maximum safety feateures, or 2.No logical reason. The same situation is true for the Civic. This is the major reason I am buying a Camry. I would have loved to seriously consider the Accord, it is a great car, but in my town with the red light runners, you better have all the airbags you can get in the car. Bob
Toyota does the same thing, only in a different way (for the Canadian market anyway). To get curtain airbags for the Camry, you have to buy an option package that costs almost $5K CDN.
A business associate/friend of mine had an accident 4 years ago where his car slid sideway in the snow, got hit by a car going the opposite direction. He head first hit the area around the B pillar, then bounced over and hit the inside mirror. He was in a coma for close to a week. The doctor said he'd be a vegetable for life. Thanks to the grace of God, he has recovered to the point where he can function by himself in daily routines without supervision. But to this day he still walks with a limp and talks haltingly, and has gaps in his memory. His unfortunate experience has convinced me on 2 points: the merit of ABS, and that side head airbags would probably have saved him from a lot of misery.
What kind of car was he in bodydouble? Cars have made alot advancements when it comes to safety and the overall solidity and design of the car are the most important factors. I am not discounting side airbags all together but I think that the Accords ABS, side airbags, and front airbags are more than adequate to protect it's occupants.
I had to disagree with your point. Dohc operates with intakes lobes on on cam and exhaust lobes on the other cam. SOHC has both intakes/exhaust lobes on the same Camshaft and therefore more torque and twisting stress on the Camshaft. If SOHC is so good why Hondas premium car NSX, RSX, S2000 and formula 1 racing engines uses DOHC engines.
An early 90's Corolla is no comparison with a new Accord. One thing Honda seems to be getting REALLY right with their new cars is safety. I can vouch for it as I was in a rather violent crash in my 02 SI. I T-boned the woman at about 45-50MPH (thankfully it was her fault). The impact knocked her a few feet off and spun me around at about a 270 degree angle. I got out without even a bruise. I was shaken up of course but the car sacrificed itself .. which it's designed to do. If you want to see the pictures e-mail me.
It's not the premium cars that get DOHC ... it's just the ones that rev higher. DOHC enables the engine to rev higher. For an engine that won't see much past 7000RPM SOHC is just fine.
1> Side air bags and Side curtain airbags rarely help in a frontal collision. There are sensors in the doors to trigger those airbags. They are intended for side impacts, not frontal. It is correct that the Accord as well as any other vehicle does fine in frontal impacts with or without the side airbags, though.
2>The reason that DOHC applications are in the "premium" or higher priced vehicles is because they can make more power... With a DOHC application, you can do a cam phasing on the intake and exhaust cam, while on a SOHC application, you must do both at once. If I remember the ressearch I did, under low RPM applications, retarding the intake cam can create more TQ because it allows a better a/f ratio, and it can ovelap the exhaust to decrease emissions on cold engines. Under high RPM, you can extend the duration of the exhaust, causing better scavaging of the cylinders... More info can be found if you want to research further...
Both had VTEC, but one was double, one single. That allows for different timing on the cam activations as well and allows better efficiency of the engine.
Try getting a Camry LE with SAB and ABM only. I could not find one. By the time all the collateral options are in place, my LE was costing close to 24K MSRP, so I opted for the base LE. Oh...I was in an accident last summer in a SAAB where I saw the value of SAB...
Dear tblazer503:I realize that frontal air bags are fine for frontal collisions, but I am talking about side impact collisions, the kind we have here in a town where red light running is a sport. If side air bags are no big deal, then why are they on cars at all? My question still stands:why does Honda only include all the safety devices on their top of the line model, which may include features the customer doesn't want. I would rather be able to pick and choose my options, as the customer can do with Toyota. I am not critisizing the quality of the Accord, it is mechanically a fine car, perhaps even a shade better than the Camry, although I gather from what I have read at this town hall discussion, that it is a toss up . When I asked the mechanic who has been servicing my two very old Oldsmobiles(72 and 78) for 20 years that I was going to buy a new car, he said "that is easy, just buy either Toyota or Honda and don't consider anything else". This is a man whose opinion I respect, and whose family drives only those two brands. Bob
That's really pity the manufactures put safety options as a luxury. But in Canada Accord LX gets side airbags as a standard, while with Toyota you have to go to the top XLE. It is opposite from what ichem1 says. Go figure.
I hear you on that... sometimes it is pretty annoying that you can't really pick your options on the Accords, and that most of the items are pretty standardized. You can get the SAB on the Accord LX, though... You can't get the side curtain airbags on any model except the V6 EX, though. Kinda sucks... I would have opted for it if I had the option.
I did look at the difference, and for me it was worth it. For the extra 2grand, I got the security system(instead of keyless entry), SAB, the aluminum trim, 6-disc cd changer, sunroof, and the electronic brake distribution. Kinda worth it, I think.
The problem I have always found with Toyota's is that it is usually very difficult to find the one with all the options that you want. Unless you want only the more common features. That's actually why I ended up getting the Accord vs. the Camry. I looked at one, but wanted a 5spd(almost) fully loaded. Couldn't find one in sight, and they said I had to buy package x to get y, etc which may be bull, but still...
They are both very fine vehicles, and I would have been happy with either, but the accord had all the features for about the same price.
Actually for those of you who buy Honda's and Toyota's because of their reliability, one of the MAJOR factors for their reliability is standardized work. Both Toyota and Honda are leaders in their industry as well as in industry in general for their reliability and quality of finished product. The GREATEST contributing factor to this is their focus on Standardized Work. By making one product after another in the same method and with the same quality of materials and work, is a major basis of their quality. When you're changing what you're building from one vehicle to the next, you never know what is supposed to be there and what isn't. By making all of their vehicles in the same way (or with the same equipment), if something is different with one, then something is probably wrong and is more likely to be noticed before it gets to the consumer. This also reduces production costs.
So for those of you who want to be able to pick and choose options on your Toyota or Honda, be glad that you can't or you'd be having the same quality issues that the "Domestic" makes have with their quality because they don't standardize their work.
Yes VTEC and VVT-i are very similar, but the accomplish the cam timing in two different ways:
Without going into the nitty-gritty VTEC: The cam timing is changed through multiple cam profiles. A two-stage VTEC (most VTEC's in the US) improves top-end power. The 3-stage in the 03 V6, also improves mid-end power as well as top-end power. Then there's the VTEC-E system (Civic HX and Hybrids), which, as stated earlier works on the intake cam also. THe low-speed cam only opens the intake valve partially for improved low-end power and efficiency (basically force larger swirl at lower speeds). THe higher speed cam fully opens the intake valve.
VVT-i: works by altering the phasing of the cam timing. This is why Toyota engines tend to be DOHC. Most VVT-i systems work on the intake cam only, independent of the exhaust cam. There's a electronic-hydraulic actuator which delays or advances the intake cam "timing" to produce a broader torque curve and improve the efficiency of the operation.
i-VTEC: VTEC with VVT-i. Which is why it's a DOHC design (HOnda 4-cyl). THough there are 2 versions in the US, best illustrated by the Acura RSX:
economy: VTEC-E with VVT-i performance: regular VTEC with VVT-i (multiple cam profiles on both intake and exhaust)
What does the Accord 4-cyl have? My best guess is the economy version of i-VTEC.
If you want to know the nitty-gritty details...the internet has many excellent sites.
Mass production at high quality comes to mind with this post. Also, "less product feature variations make for less quality snafus."
All true, but let me add something that's emerging: aggressive companies in the mold of Honda and Dell (for PCs) who promote customization with little or no quality compromises.
Carmakers who've got this philosophy nailed at this point stand the best chances of succeeding when customized but mainstream cars come of age.
It's starting to happen, and it will probably pick up some more - going to the carmaker website and picking out your model, color, options (as with Honda).
What distinguishes Honda, Dell and maybe some other similar companies from the rest, is the standardization of a quality philosophy rather than standardization of selected portions of that philosophy.
What I mean is this: a car company, as with most other businesses, creates its "Camcord XLS-Type S" following a process comprising of several portions or stages - conceptualization, development, prototyping, production (which includes supply sourcing), marketing and after-sales support.
A true quality company has quality in all those stages, while a sub-par business thinks it's got quality only if it has a top-notch quality control department in the production stage.
Because there are already carmakers who are true quality companies, it's very likely that we as consumers will still get our cake and it eat too: a high-quality, customized car.
And Honda, Toyota, Nissan and - I sincerely wish at some point, the US carmakers - appear poised to deliver.
I understand what icem1 is saying about options on Honda's. There are a couple items on the EX which have nothing to do with safety but, and correct me if I am wrong, you are forced to get (which really equals purchase!) the moonroof and leather seats, neither of which I really need or want. If they are on the EX, then you ARE paying for them! A power driver's seat is more of a necessity to me than leather seats with heaters! Cloth seats in today's vehicles are so durable they last a LONG time and present no freezing backside in winter and burning legs in summer!
The interior ivory color on the Accord appears to be so very light, I could foresee problems keeping it clean. Too bad a little more thought wasn't put into cloth seats/carpeting which would present an easier upkeep situation! Tone-on-tone combinations could be very attractive!
From what I have seen, you have more opportunities to "make your own Camry" than you can "make your own Accord!!" I can get an XLE with cloth seats and no moonroof! That's probably what I'll do!
Does anyone know what's included in the Camry Luxury Edition advertised on TV? Can't find it on the Toyota site. Just wondered if it's a "special edition."
Toyota's "make your own Camry" philosophy isn't perfect. There are combinations that you can build but not actually find and even if you do find it there is a chance it will not have a couple of things you are looking for. The Accord on the other hand is consistent. If you want a EX-L you will get an EX-L or if you want a LX you will get an LX. There isn't any variation.
with a statement made earlier by ichem...the accord dx and lx offer side airbags as individual options. yes, you have to order them, but its only a $300 upgrade and about 6 weeks to wait. if this was truly that important to you, this should be a no-brainer. i sold an '03 lx auto with side bags about 2 weeks ago, and we have 2 more in stock.
in conclusion, alas, honda DOES offer safety features on all models. although the only ones left to add are the side bags. ABS is standard on ALL accords.
This is a deal breaker for getting the car; can't afford to shell ou buck to fix them; they always end up getting hit in parking lots, etc. Can't beleive Toyota did this.
The mirros get bumped by both...especailly pedestrians going between cars (with packages), and sometimes by cars next to me. The also sometimes get hit backing out tight spaces, etc.
I saw 2 get broken off of cars this holiday season by people.
I've had cars with and without break-away mirrors and have yet to have an unfortunate accident with a pedestrian or a car. Maybe some of us need to drive a wee bit more cautiously?
i was thinking the same thing... if you park in a place where you're risking side mirrors getting broken off, then i can just imagine how many dor dings you're getting... seems to me you need to do some exercising and park out a ways.. i have a 2001 accord coupe with no body side moulding... no door dings yet knock on wood, but i dont need to park in the closest space to the door. am i nuts?
I park as far out as I can. Preferably with one side of the car against a curb. I snuggle up REAL close to the curb so it only leaves one side exposed and the other side is so far away from the line that someone has to be purposefully trying to get your door.
I'm careful about where I park, too, but there are no guarantees. I came out from work one day and my passenger side mirror on my Accord was flat against the side. No actual damage, but it's likely that there would have been with fixed mirrors. I was very glad to have the folding mirrors in that case.
You may not have needed them so far. By the same token, I've never faced a situation where I needed the air bags on my car, but I still want them anyway.
So don't get *too* vocal with the suggestions about "parking further out" and "getting some exercise" (excuse me???). I do so and still ran into the mirror problem. It's not a deal breaker for me, but I'd certainly rather have them than not.
I agree Talon .. it's a good selling point but it shouldn't be the only thing you base your decision on. Stuff can happen no matter how careful you are. I learned that when I came out of the grocery store the day before Thanksgiving and found a shopping car in the side of my car
I park carefully and have zero door dings...but that doesn't prevent people front hitting the mirrors. Granted, I live in a very populated area, and have to get into tight garages (another source of mirror swipes).
If you haven't this happen, I'm happy for you...but I still maintain any modern car should have them. Of course, not the only factor, but a significant one if you have ever gotten a mirror whacked.
Would the mirrors of Accord be saved if they are hit from the back of the car ? Example if you are backing up the car and the mirrors are caught something, will they survive ?
Comments
Would the change to 3.0VVT-i is updated in 2003 brochure by now in Canada ?
I could not find any info regard the change.
Thanks
Bob
http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0220.htm
2>The reason that DOHC applications are in the "premium" or higher priced vehicles is because they can make more power... With a DOHC application, you can do a cam phasing on the intake and exhaust cam, while on a SOHC application, you must do both at once. If I remember the ressearch I did, under low RPM applications, retarding the intake cam can create more TQ because it allows a better a/f ratio, and it can ovelap the exhaust to decrease emissions on cold engines. Under high RPM, you can extend the duration of the exhaust, causing better scavaging of the cylinders... More info can be found if you want to research further...
Here are some numbers
D16Y8 1.6L SOHC 1590cc 127HP(6600rpm)/107TQ(5500rpm)
B16B 1.6L DOHC 1595cc 185HP(8200rpm)/118TQ(7500rpm)
Both had VTEC, but one was double, one single. That allows for different timing on the cam activations as well and allows better efficiency of the engine.
Gotta be a devils advocate... hehe
I did look at the difference, and for me it was worth it. For the extra 2grand, I got the security system(instead of keyless entry), SAB, the aluminum trim, 6-disc cd changer, sunroof, and the electronic brake distribution. Kinda worth it, I think.
The problem I have always found with Toyota's is that it is usually very difficult to find the one with all the options that you want. Unless you want only the more common features. That's actually why I ended up getting the Accord vs. the Camry. I looked at one, but wanted a 5spd(almost) fully loaded. Couldn't find one in sight, and they said I had to buy package x to get y, etc which may be bull, but still...
They are both very fine vehicles, and I would have been happy with either, but the accord had all the features for about the same price.
So for those of you who want to be able to pick and choose options on your Toyota or Honda, be glad that you can't or you'd be having the same quality issues that the "Domestic" makes have with their quality because they don't standardize their work.
Just an FYI.
Ken
Without going into the nitty-gritty
VTEC: The cam timing is changed through multiple cam profiles. A two-stage VTEC (most VTEC's in the US) improves top-end power. The 3-stage in the 03 V6, also improves mid-end power as well as top-end power. Then there's the VTEC-E system (Civic HX and Hybrids), which, as stated earlier works on the intake cam also. THe low-speed cam only opens the intake valve partially for improved low-end power and efficiency (basically force larger swirl at lower speeds). THe higher speed cam fully opens the intake valve.
VVT-i: works by altering the phasing of the cam timing. This is why Toyota engines tend to be DOHC. Most VVT-i systems work on the intake cam only, independent of the exhaust cam. There's a electronic-hydraulic actuator which delays or advances the intake cam "timing" to produce a broader torque curve and improve the efficiency of the operation.
i-VTEC: VTEC with VVT-i. Which is why it's a DOHC design (HOnda 4-cyl). THough there are 2 versions in the US, best illustrated by the Acura RSX:
economy: VTEC-E with VVT-i
performance: regular VTEC with VVT-i (multiple cam profiles on both intake and exhaust)
What does the Accord 4-cyl have? My best guess is the economy version of i-VTEC.
If you want to know the nitty-gritty details...the internet has many excellent sites.
All true, but let me add something that's emerging: aggressive companies in the mold of Honda and Dell (for PCs) who promote customization with little or no quality compromises.
Carmakers who've got this philosophy nailed at this point stand the best chances of succeeding when customized but mainstream cars come of age.
It's starting to happen, and it will probably pick up some more - going to the carmaker website and picking out your model, color, options (as with Honda).
What distinguishes Honda, Dell and maybe some other similar companies from the rest, is the standardization of a quality philosophy rather than standardization of selected portions of that philosophy.
What I mean is this: a car company, as with most other businesses, creates its "Camcord XLS-Type S" following a process comprising of several portions or stages - conceptualization, development, prototyping, production (which includes supply sourcing), marketing and after-sales support.
A true quality company has quality in all those stages, while a sub-par business thinks it's got quality only if it has a top-notch quality control department in the production stage.
Because there are already carmakers who are true quality companies, it's very likely that we as consumers will still get our cake and it eat too: a high-quality, customized car.
And Honda, Toyota, Nissan and - I sincerely wish at some point, the US carmakers - appear poised to deliver.
The interior ivory color on the Accord appears to be so very light, I could foresee problems keeping it clean. Too bad a little more thought wasn't put into cloth seats/carpeting which would present an easier upkeep situation! Tone-on-tone combinations could be very attractive!
From what I have seen, you have more opportunities to "make your own Camry" than you can "make your own Accord!!" I can get an XLE with cloth seats and no moonroof! That's probably what I'll do!
Does anyone know what's included in the Camry Luxury Edition advertised on TV? Can't find it on the Toyota site. Just wondered if it's a "special edition."
Thanks for the opportunity to vent!
in conclusion, alas, honda DOES offer safety features on all models. although the only ones left to add are the side bags. ABS is standard on ALL accords.
Accord has them
Camry doesn't
This is a deal breaker for getting the car; can't afford to shell ou buck to fix them; they always end up getting hit in parking lots, etc.
Can't beleive Toyota did this.
I saw 2 get broken off of cars this holiday season by people.
Just a word to the wise...
You may not have needed them so far. By the same token, I've never faced a situation where I needed the air bags on my car, but I still want them anyway.
So don't get *too* vocal with the suggestions about "parking further out" and "getting some exercise" (excuse me???). I do so and still ran into the mirror problem. It's not a deal breaker for me, but I'd certainly rather have them than not.
If you haven't this happen, I'm happy for you...but I still maintain any modern car should have them. Of course, not the only factor, but a significant one if you have ever gotten a mirror whacked.