Hyundai Sonata 2005 and earlier

mike91326

Everything I see on the LX states that the automatic is a $500 option and that the 5-speed is standard. However, I have not been able to find an LX with the 5-speed. Can my dealer order one?

musiclawyer

Don't bother trying to find an LX 5-speed. I suffered all the heartache and disappointment for you. They make it, but not for North America. ....Yet....Dealers will say that they might be able to order, but upon inquiry realize they can't. Hyundai USA says that that you need to talk to dealers to order, but it's always a dead end. For maximum performance, the LX V6 cries out for a 5-speed. I still might get one with the shiftronic, as it's better than nothing, but I am now considering other alternatives such as Mazda6. This is really dumb on Hyundai's part since they make the manual tranny fot the 4cl.

chromeman

My 2000 Sonata GLS just turned 40,000 miles and I have had no problems. I just completed a 2K mile road trip and got around 25-27 miles per gallon at highway speeds of 75 MPH.. Very Happy Very pleased.

mike91326

I’ll go one better, the Sonada cries out for a GT version. I would love to see Hyundai take a Sonada LX and add all the goodies from the Tib GT. Just think, 6-speed, 17” wheels, dual pipes out the back, tight sport suspension, etc. If Hyundai had one, it would be in my driveway tonight.

ai3xskc

Hey guys,

I was just wondering how your Sonatas were holding up. Has anyone had starting problems in the brutal cold weather that we've been getting? Toronto, for the last week or so, has faced temperatures ranging between -15 ~ -25 and I was just wondering if anyone had problems. Our family has a 2000 Sonata GL V6 and it currently has 62,000+ kms on it and the car overall has been quite reliable except for the annoying "check engine" light that bothered us for a month. But the problem was corrected immediately after we switched dealership so I partially blame the longevity of the problem to the technically challenged Hyundai dealerships. It's good that Hyundai is building decently reliable cars but I believe in order for them to move up the ladder, they should really look after the quality of their dealerships.

Anyway I drifted for a moment there but I would really like to know how your Sonatas (old and new but mostly interested on how they've been holding up after the initial 90days) are and would like your input.

Thanks guys....

rhard49

I have had it 16 months and have 20k miles already. I switched to synthetics 5-30 because of the extreme cold ( Oswego NY ) no problems starting at all. The Auto trans is still a little akward at times the reprogram helped the flare but it still has a delayed 1-2 shift and occaional flare on 2-3. My dealer is useless.
Otherwise my biggest gripe would be the passenger side seat belt buckle that we all have it turns inward when someone takes it off and rattles against the plastic. Short of that its and excellent value.

drimple

We currently have 48,000 miles on my 2000 GLS that my wife and I bought in March of 2000. No huge problems to report. We had the recalls done. The fuel pump was noisy after about 20,000 miles and replaced under warranty. We've left the lights on twice and called up roadside assist to get a jump.

All in all, pretty minor problems that were easily remedied.

riez

Ditto drimple's comments. Got mine in spring of 2000. Loaded car, with Pkg 13 (leather, ABS, TC, etc.) No fuel pump problems, but my fan motor is intermittently a bit noisy on lowest setting. And in this very cold weather my power antenna won't quite go all the way down.

Think I've left my lights on 3 times. But haven't done that in about 20,000 miles or so. Just took me a while to learn my lesson!

Been a great work car. Reliable and cost effective.

paulv4

How is it that there is no headlight chime in the 2000 Sonata. Of course my wife left her lights on this morning at work only to find a dead battery at the end of the day. Does anyone know of a way to install one?

ai3xskc

It must either be broken or something cuz our 2000 Sonata has a headlight chime. I know that it comes on when the headlights are on and the driver door opens.

nato1

My '02 sonata gls has 18k miles and I have had zero problems, even with the cold weather (mass). I finally put studded snows on 15" metal rims all the way around. The oem michelins are useless in the snow. The only grip that I have is that trying to get 15" steel rims is very difficult due to the odd bolt pattern. I found someone locally that had a set of take-offs from his base sonata.

ray_h71

nato1, congratulations on finding the steel wheels for your snow tires. (I'm mystified why Hyundai decided on a four-bolt pattern for the mid-size Sonatas.) But for anyone else contemplating this move, junk yards, er, "auto dismantlers" would also be a source. You'd need to check for dents and have the wheels mounted on a spindle and spun to check for rotational trueness since, once you leave the yard, those wheels are ~yours~.

rhard49

I just got my 2002 Sonata back today my son had it at school while I was getting the trans fixed on his old maxima. God did I miss it. I just leased a new honda EXL for my wife and gotta say the sonata is better hands down. It may not have the resale value, (which is all honda people seem to talk about)But it drives like a much larger vehicle, is more comfortable, quieter,and just rides better. It has 22k miles and my 2 week stint with my wifes honda has made me love it even more.

ray_h71

I just ticked over 3,100 miles on my 2003 Sonata. The only thing the car's been back to the dealer for was to have leather installed. Even at this low mileage, a 225 mile run each way from Rialto, CA to Las Vegas netted a trip total of 31 mpg. NO oil used. Not bad for a still tight V6. I agree that the car is tomb quiet and generally rides very well. My next door neighbor took delivery of a 4 cylinder automatic 2003 Accord DX about the same time. We swapped rides. I was impressed with the Accord's legendary solid body structure (but I was, too, with the Sonata's), and geneally competent, but stiffer, ride. I think the Sonata is tuned more for comfort than handling, though. The Accord DX isn't as quiet as my base Sonata, though, and has no where near the list of standard features - EXCEPT for standard ABS (Shame, Hyundai! It's well past the time that ABS should be STANDARD on ALL cars in my opinion.) My neighbor must have been suitably impressed with my Sonata, too. Midway through the demo ride he became very quiet. I could tell the gears were meshing (and I don't just mean in my car's transmission, either). Hyundai's poor resale value is partially the result of the comapany's "new-kid-on-the-block" status, and its somewhat disaster prone first offerings in north America back in the 1980s. When I made the purchase decision in December, it was with the realization that the only way I'd see full value from buying a Hyundai would be to drive it out of the car. The 10/100,000 power train warranty made the decision easier. Are the current Sonatas the quality equivalent of the Accord? Maybe, maybe not. But after a '91 Sonata, I'm confident stating that the trend of hitting "Target Honda Accord" is definately getting closer with each iteration of the Sonata. I'm looking forward to seeing what Hyundai has in store when the all-new Sonata debuts in 2005. If I'm not mistaken, it'll be the initial offering from the new Montgomery, Alabama plant Hyundai is building in the U.S. Also, Hyundai just broke ground on a 40 million dollar proving ground and test center in the Mojave Desert in Califonia's San Bernardino county. It's increasingly apparent to me that Hyundai's fully committed to a North American presence. It also doesn't hurt the company's "confidence-quotient" that DaimlerChrysler, A.G. holds a 10 percent equity stake in Hyundai.

retiredguy

About 2 weeks ago, I saw a station wagon version of the Sonata..Since I live in an area that is host to winter Texans..it could possibly been a Canadian car...(if such a model is available)

I have been investigating small wagons/suv's..and such a wagon might be a good choice..

Does anyone know of any Hyundai plans to sell a wagon in the US..TIA

bricknord

Hey, I'm considering a Sonata, but am a confirmed stick-shift driver. I notice on Hyundai's website, a V6 manual and a 4 cyl manual are supposedly available. Would be intersted to know if anyone can shed any insight on this...any manual Sonata owners out there, especially with the V6?

Thanks

Matt

riez

bricknord... Read the recent C&D comparison test. They tried, unsuccessfully, to get a V-6 manual. Don't think I've ever seen anyone here who actually owns a V-6 manual in model year 2001 or 2002. Think there have been some people here who did have V-6 manuals from model years 1999 and 2000.

nod4rog

I have 45k miles on my 2000 GLS. So far the only repairs required were a new head light and a window regulator. Recently my radio went dead after a jump start. The warranty for the radio is out after 3yr/36k. The audio fuse in the fuse box was not burned out. When I turned on the radio, only the light on the display comes on, and the power antenna does extend. No sound. Does anyone know if this problem could be fixed by simply replacing a fuse on the radio or resetting a switch? Is it difficult to remove the radio unit?

nod4rog

Before I had the chance to pull the radio, my girlfriend came home last friday and proudly announced that she had fixed the radio. It turned out that she had left the lights on and drained the battery again. After jump starting the car, the radio worked. I don't know whether the radio was turned off or not when jump starting. But my guess is that the radio reset itself when power to it was cut off due to dead battery. So the radio could have been fixed by merely removing and reconnecting one of the battery cable (just a guess). Anyway, you folks should remember to turn the radio off before you jump start the car. Better yet, just remember to turn off the lights.

mike91326

Per Hyundai's website, it looks like they are giving $500 rebates on V6 Sonata's and $1000 on the I4 Sonata. On top of that, Hyundai sent me a $1000 coupon because I own a 2001 Elantra. That will be a nice additional $1500 savings when my wife gets the LX next month.

bricknord

Anyone out there with a current body-style Sonata with a manual transmission? Can you give me your impressions of your car?

Thanks!

bricknord

Not "sick" ...STICK shift! My bad!

ray_h71

bricknord, if you can get hold of a copy of the Feb. '03 issue of "Car & Driver" magazine (has a picture of a "stealth" black Dodge Magnum SRT-8 "Hemi" on the cover), there's a road test of mid-size models with (mostly) 4 cyl engines and manual trannies. Ignore the Sonata because the only one available was a V-6 /w automatic. But, read their report on the Kia Optima (really a re-skinned Sonata) with the 4 cyl engine and manual tranny. It's test result should be equivalent to a Sonata with the same power train. While "Car & Driver"'s editorial slant leans more towards overt male dysfunctional compensation, the raw performance numbers showed that Hyundai powertrain is much closer to the "biggies" (Honda and Toyota) than those manufacturers would care to acknowledge. Braking and handling performance weren't as well represented, but, still, more than adequate for sane driving habits.

I have a 2003 base Sonata V-6 /w auto tranny and thoroughly enjoy it. At 4,000 miles the body's still tight as a vault, and NO mechanical issues so far. I went with the automatic transmission because Hyundai's is a smooth shifter and I've grown weary "rowing" through the gears of manual transmissions. The V-6 only added $600.00 over the I-4, is all aluminum (actually 5 lbs. LESS than the iron block I-4 in published curb weight), and includes a nice leather wrapped steering wheel.

dunn3

Hello everyone - I have a 2000 Hyundai Sonata and both of my keyless entry remote controls stopped working. I changed the batteries, but does anyone know how to fix or reprogram the remote controls? I went to the dealer and they wanted $35 for doing it - my car is still under warranty, but they are giving me a song and dance about the alarm being non-factory - although the problem only happened now
please help - thanks!!

ray_h71

dunn3, are you -sure- the replacement batteries are fresh, the right type, and installed correctly? (If the LED lights on command, the batteries are probably correct and correctly installed.) Is your keyless entry/alarm a Hyundai unit? If so, was it installed by the dealer prior to delivery of the car to you and/or included in the purchase or lease contract? If you can answer "yes" to BOTH questions, it should be covered by you car's warranty. Otherwise, it appears you'll have to cough up the $35.00. (Obviously Hyundai's not gonna make it easy for do-it-yourselfers to reprogram the remotes - otherwise any Tom, Dick, or Harry with an eBay purchased remote "fob" and a bent toward larceny would be able to access your car, right?)

dunn3

thanks for the response,
yes, the keyless entry is standard (from Hyundai) and the alarm was put on when I bought the car (new) although I don't think it is from Hyundai. I changed the batteries and the little lights do work, but they don't open the car

In terms of your "do-it yourself comment" Ford has more advanced keyless entry systems, and the way those are reprogrammed is by inserting the key into the ignition, moving the key from position I to III (Not turning the car on) 4 (yes four) times and then pressing the open button on the key fob. I'm not a great fan of Ford, but on this item, they are waaaaaaaay ahead of Hyundai. As a matter of fact, although I like my car, I've had ~20 different visits to the dealerships to fix warranty conditions on my car

codata99

The keyless entry on your Sonata is a port-installed system made by DEI, the best car security
system manufacturer in the U.S. Remote programming is done by cycling the valet switch.

ai3xskc

Hey guys...

I got this link from another post regarding the problems that VW, BMW and MB owners are having... but it seems Hyundai is finally getting their recognition.

http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv3.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt- _id=302621&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=113261&bmUID=10476665934- 64

ai3xskc

Me again...

got this from www.HyundaiPerformance.com

http://yk911.homestead.com/files/sonata/sonata1.jpg
http://yk911.homestead.com/files/sonata/sonata2.jpg
http://yk911.homestead.com/files/sonata/sonata3.jpg

kinda looks like an accord from the back but it seems as if Hyundai is making the Sonata sportier. I definitely applaud Hyundai for that with all the horsepower craze that's going on right now. hmmm... now if they can hurry up with their engine alliance development.... anyway lates

Steve

ray_h71

Intriguing. The front end grill is also remeniscent of the 2003 Accord. I'll admit though I've become fond of the 2002 and 2003 Sonata's Mercedes "C-Class"-style headlight treatment. I think I like the next generation Sonata's rear-end treatment, too, but, I hope that apparant vertical displacement of the trunk-lid mounted tail light and the fender-mounted tail light is just due to the lid not being latched during assembly. I have reservations about the dash, though. I've not been thrilled having to take my eyes off the road to adjust the HVAC controls on my 2003 sonata. Doesn't look like Hyundai has alleviated the problem on the next generation Sonata, either. However, I DO like the light contrasting color of the lower dash. Helps lend an airy feeling when the lower interior isn't a "black hole". In any event none of the mentioned "problem issues" aren't things I couldn't adapt to in time.

ray_h71

codata99, could you expand on, "cycling the valet switch", please? Is this a specific hidden switch, or a function on the "key fob"? My 2003 Sonata's has three buttons with icons for "lock", "unlock", and "trunk lid release"

canpam

I like what they are doing with the next generation Sonata. If Hyundai is able to maximize the good looks of the current model-- I think Hyundai has ANOTHER winner. Do you think they will up the horsepower to something in the 200's (225hp)?

codata99

Your car doesn't have a valet switch. It's a different system.

intrepidspirit

18 months ago, I bought an 2001 Elantra for my daughter. I therefore have a $1,000 loyalty rebate that can be used as often as I want (while it is still offered). On Saturday (3/15), I helped my stepson purchase a 2003 Sonata. We originally thought 2003 Elantra GLS ($9,988 - automatic -- all in stock!), but decided on their loss leader -- a base Sonata with only floor mats, mud guards and cargo net as options. The price was $12,988 LESS the additional $1,000 rebate for a total of $11,988 (MRSP was $16,723).

I can use the $1,000 rebate again if my wife decides to get a Santa Fe....

stiffman

was a little wary of mike_johns2000 post about Suntrip as that is my closest dealer. Could his problem be mainly the individual car he got and not the dealership in general? Besides, I am interested in a 2003. Also is the midline trim level or above worth the extra cost over the base model? thanks, I am new to this chat.

ray_h71

Only YOU can answer that. If dealers in your area are in a dealing mood, reports from others on this forum indicate that even the hotsy-totsy LX models can be had very reasonably. However, Hyundai dealers in my area of southern California weren't in that desperate a mood to negotiate. (I must've walked into those showrooms wearing a "Screw me!" sign on my back...) Consider carefully the differences in the GLS and the base Sonata. The GLS includes the V6 motor, upgraded cloth upholstery, cassette function in the audio system (which could be important if you have an extensive cassette collection), heated mirrors, power antenna, "woodtone" interior trim, alloy wheels, and 60-series Michelin tires. For less than the difference in cost between these models, I bought a base Sonata with the V6 motor (an additional $600.00 MSRP - a bargain!). The standard cloth upholstery is different, but not inferior at all in the "looks" department in my opinion. But, that didn't matter because for an additional $1,120.00 (including tax) my dealer arranged to have leather upholstery (all seat panels and door panel inserts) installed. Buttery-soft leather is a purely personal indulgence I've lusted after for a long time. Finally got it. And, finally for an additional $138.00 I ordered online and installed (about 30 minutes, no disassembly required) a nicer looking Japanese cherrywood interior trim kit. True, I don't have the alloy wheels, but the 65 series Michelin tires ride quieter and more comfortably than the 60 series I had on a previous Sonata. (I'm past the point of identifying with aim-'n-dart "sport" driving.) Besides, I can't see the damned wheels when I'm in the car anyway, and I couldn't care less what other drivers think of my steel wheels with their plastic "alloy-look" wheel covers... The other items had no particular relevance for me, anyway. (heated mirrors in southern California? Yeah, I need those...) However, if you really want the automatic temperature control HVAC system, your only option is to pop for the LX trim level.

cmhdiamond

I agree with ray that the choice between models is a personal decision. I live in the middle of the East coast, where we often see weather ranging from sun to rain to sleet to snow. Difficult conditions for any car to do well all the time. So I opted to get the GLS model as I wanted the traction control (which isn't available on the base model). The heated mirrors have also come in handy on several occasions. Also, I have a 3-yr old who loves listening to kids music, which is mostly still only available on cassette. So the dual-media stereo was a must-have. Things like the allow wheels, power antenna, chrome side trim and wood interior trim were not really a concern to me, but do add a little asthetically to the car.
But overall, in my case, the mid-level GLS trim was definately worth the extra cost. I didn't really need or want the leather in the LX, so that feature wasn't worth it to me. But it may be worth the extra to some folks.
One more note in case you haven't already seen it in these discussions, don't expect to find a manual transmission. They just aren't available in the States.

riez

Love my V6 manual. So glad my work car is a model year 2000. Seems like that was the last model year anyone could actually get a V6 5-speed. Doesn't seem like Hyundai exported any model year 2001, 2002, or 2003 V6 manuals into USA. Anyone here also have a V6 manual?

Too bad my MY 2000 is "only" the 2.5L V6, but she is still a blast to drive. Also glad I got a fully loaded one, with Pkg 13. I wanted ABS/traction control, CD, sunroof, and leather. The leather seats are wearing well. At first they looked a bit fake, almost plasticky, but now they are aging nicely. Does leather mature?

stiffman

What are some people's experience's with that? Has that been a realistic goal? When my daughter bought a Tiburon several months ago, they tried to add some "market" surcharge of, like $1500 or so, saying that the cars are so HOT now in St. Louis. I put the poo-poo on that one but I am curious how close to sticker people are coming, on SONATAS. Also, does Hyundai financing offer to include sales tax in the loan?

intrepidspirit

I purchased a 2003 Sonata on 3/15 for my stepson (post #2202). He has already had it back to the dealer due to the check engine light going on. They said it was the sensor for the gas tank and repeated the "3 revolutions" instructions for the gas tank cap. The next day, the light came on again and has stayed on since. They plan to take it in again tomorrow (sensor needs to be reset), but I was hoping someone here may have had this problem fixed before. When I pressed the salesman, he said about 1 in 10 Sonatas have this problem, but he seems to think it is rectified by extreme tightening of the gas cap ( which we already did and this didn't work).

I would appreciate any feedback from anyone who has had this problem!
Thanks.

ray_h71

Whoever told your stepson to spin the gas cap "three revolutions" is full of poppy-poop. The gas caps on these models have a ratcheting mechanism that allows only so much tightening. Period. The idea is that if the gas cap is turned past the point where the clicking is heard, it's sufficiently tight. The owner's manual advisory is to turn it at least three clicks past the point of the ratcheting mechanism over-run clutch activation. NOT three whole revolutions. If his car's "Check Engine" light is still gloriously ablaze, something else is wrong. Just tell your stepson that he doesn't have to run the cap around like he's winding up an old clockwork toy. Another possible culprit is one or more valves involved with the purge control of the vapor recovery charcoal cannister that collects gasoline vapors and rechannels the condensate back to the fuel tank. There may indeed be a defect in his car, but some posts on the Hyundai Owner's Forum have indicated that warmer weather may alleviate the problem - especially for owners who make it a habit to "top-up" their fuel tanks while filling. This has been an abysmally cold winter in some parts of North America. But in other cases one of the electrically controlled purge valves has failed and requires replacement.

intrepidspirit

Thanks for the response. We live in Southern California, so it's not due to the cold weather.

When we got the car, it was sitting in a remote lot, still wrapped in shipping paper. My stepson drove it back to the dealer for preparation and it was running on empty when he started it up. I wonder if sitting with a virtually empty gas tank for a few months could affect the sensor? It doesn't seem to affect the car's performance, which makes me think it could be the gas tank vacuum level. The dealership obviously thinks that is the cause as well, but resetting the sensor hasn't stopped the problem.

Maybe we'll try another dealership...

stiffman

sorry,I mis-spoke on previous entry

cmhdiamond

Stiffman,
I can't speak for others, but I can say that the price I paid for my '03 Sonata was well below TMV, and even well below invoice.
I got the GLS model with package 5 (moonroof, ABS, traction control) and it also had the "port/dealer" installed options of moonroof wind deflector, mudguards, and trunk cargo net. This put the sticker price at $19519. The invoice (according to Edmunds) should have been about $17680 including the extras. My price (before taxes/tags/etc.) was $17157. Given that I bought the car in January, when Hyundai was offering a manufacturer-to-dealer incentive of $500, my price was just about equal to what the dealer paid. Of course the dealer still made a profit from the holdback, but I think I got a really fair price.
In case you're interested, here's how I got that price: I put in about 10 requests for quotes on the internet using both Edmunds and the Hyundai website for submissions. That allowed me to bargain shop by e-mail before I even went into the dealer showroom. I did end up having to drive about 40 miles to get the price above, but it was well worth the trip. The dealer (Colonial Hyundai of Downingtown, PA) was very friendly and didn't try to sell me a bunch of extras. I had my price before I even arrived, so there was no haggling either. I also (using Edmunds) knew what my trade was worth, and they didn't argue with the price I wanted for it.

cmhdiamond

I think Ray might have touched on your real problem. It may simply be related to topping off the gas tank. When I picked up my new '03 Sonata, they took me around to meet the service manager, who made a point of mentioning that I should not top-off the tank because that could cause the check-engine light to come on.
I have a brother who works for a Ford dealer as a mechanic, and he has seen countless vehicles come in with check engine lights that show an over-full gas tank as the only problem when they download the vehicle computer data. Fords are notorious for this problem. And I assume that Sonatas are notorious for it too, since the Hyundai service manager felt compelled to offer up that information to me.
Tell your son-in-law I said good luck with his Sonata. I certainly love mine.

intrepidspirit

Thanks for the info. I'll pass it along to my stepson.

BTW, he and his family LOVE their Sonata. It's much more car than they thought they could buy! They've had it a week now and the car runs fine --they just can't get rid of that check engine light.

They are going to take it in again sometime this week...

banddexpress

I was wondering if anyone had the 4cyl. That is all I can afford but was a little concerned with what edmunds wrote about noisy and wasn't sure if it would have enough p/u speed. Appreciate any feedback. Thanks

banddexpress

I also was wondering about extended warranty for 10/years bumper to bumper what people paid if they bought it.
Thanks

ray_h71

banddexpress, I drove the I-4 base Sonata with an automatic transmission just for fun before I bought my V-6. It was about as responsive as my 96 Accord with the base I-4 and AT, but no where nearly as refined. It definitely thrashes a bit when called on for more oomph, but probably less so with the manual transmission. The V-6 option adds $600.00 to the price, but as far as anyone here knows, no one has been able to nail one down with a manual transmission, if that's what you're after. A couple of reasons why the V-6 is quieter and smoother is that a V-6 with 60 degree cylinder bank spacing is inherently balanced regarding second-order harmonics, and the option also provides an inner hood-mounted insulation pad. Ironically the V-6 equipped Sonatas are 5 lbs. -lighter- in weight than those equipped with the I-4 engine. (The I-4 has a cast iron block; the V-6 has a cast aluminum block.) If you're intending to get an automatic transmission already, an additional $600.00 for the V-6 engine shouldn't add anything noticeable to your monthly loan or lease payments over a three year term. One "bad" issue about the V-6 engine, though, is that it's effectively a shop issue to change the spark plugs. The rear bank is buried under the plenum chamber. That section and its cast-in runners to the intake manifold have to be removed for access. The good news is that the platinum tipped spark plugs don't have to be changed out until 60,000 miles. (Curious, itself, since other current cars with platinum plugs don't require attention until 100,000 miles or more. My personal suspicion is that Hyundai is being unduly conservative regarding spark plug replacement.) Hyundai's 2003 Sonata brochure lists its V-6 engine mileage rating as 20 mpg, city and 27 mpg, highway. At a bit over 4,200 miles, I'm getting 23 mpg, predominently city and 30 mpg, predominently highway. On a sustained highway trip (225 miles each way non-stop on an interstate) I logged 34 mpg, going and 32 mpg, coming back - with the air conditioner on most of the way. I didn't think that was too shabby for setting the cruise control on 75 mph. As always, YMMV...

stiffman

thanks for the very thorough details of your experience. I'm finding that the internet pricing is getting me alot further than the old-fashioned haggling. I guess they finally realize that some people just won't put up with their slick manipulation of figures. It does seem though that if you stay bull-headed and get your best price for the new car that they don't then want to give you Edmunds or even NADA's average trade-in value for your car. I'm still working on that trick!