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Comments
Thanks a lot for your thoughtful remarks. I appreciate the information you provided and agree with the conclusion that 2002/3 Camry is preferable to the previous generation if I can afford it. I actually posted my initial message before I drove the 4th gen. Camry. After doing that this weekend thanks to a friendly local Toyota dealer I personally didn't like it nearly as much as the newer style. It felt kind of cramped and uncomfortable in the driver's seat compared to the very comfortable 2002/3 Camry.
I actually took a chance to compare the 4th gen Camry to a comparable Accord back-to-back. So, I don't want to start another Camry vs. Accord discussion, but my two top picks right now are 2002/3 Camry LE and 2002 Accord SE, both I4, AT. Which one I will get will depend on a deal I can find in the next few weeks, I guess. Anyways, thanks a lot for the info again.
Regards,
Alex.
1. Both driver & passenger front power windows had to have the motor replaced (one at 50K miles, the other at 80K)
2. The driver side door handle broke at 135K miles.
3. At 130K miles, I had a cracked radiator + broken motor mounts which had to be fixed (plus some hoses).
4. The stereo stopped working around 75K miles.
5. I had to have alignments done 3 times (car was drifting badly to the right each time).
Is the above considered "normal wear & tear for a basically reliable car" ? Or is this "more trouble than you would expect from a reliable car" ?
Sunil
~alpha
My previous car was an Accord - I also used it for 12 years (120K miles) before trading it in, and the only problem I had with it is that the stereo died at around 70-80K miles. The Camry rides a little better for me, but I also had more problems with my Camry over 12 years than my previous Accord, so I am still undecided about the next step. (Maybe I will just go with the Hybrid Civic and buy an extended warranty...).
Sunil
My current 1995 Camry has had the rear window motor blown at around 60K miles. I got it replaced as it couldn't be closed. At around 69K miles, the front passenger window died but I never got it replaced since there were other problems that needed real attention. Plus it was $700!
The driver window is dying. The moonroof is working really well and the left rear window is working flawlessly.
So far, my wonderful 1998 Camry has met all of these expectations. EVERYTHING works. Even the exterior lights, although I replaced them with aftermarket xenon-type bulbs for a whopping $10 for both!
Also, the A/C and defrost and heat work flawlessly.
Up until I replaced the stereo/CD with a Pioneer unit, they both worked well, although the CD player was getting dirty I'm sure and couldn't play some scratched CD's very well.
Things like brakes, belts, rotors, filters, plugs, wires, tires, struts are considered wearable to me. These at some point need replaced. Although on a Toyota, you can't really tell that they need replaced unless a mechanic says so (because they run so well).
For example, my car had the original battery until 108,000 miles and I replaced it because they said it needed it badly (one terminal was corroded all to hell). Secondly, my serpentine belts didn't get replaced until 109,000 - they said they needed replaced. My struts need replaced because it is "recommended" at 50,000 miles, but I can tell the car isn't as smooth as it was new (but it's not rough either).
So, bottom line, Toyotas will not let you down. But, then again, KEEP UP WITH MAINTENACE - and any car should do fine.
NOW, I would like to compare my car with my friend's mom's 1995 Chrysler Cirrus!
It has 107,000 - less than my Camry and she has put in $4,000 in this POS! Her radio display doesn't work, the RADIO doesn't work, her brakes went out on her, she has had tranny problems, one time her car wouldn't go past 50MPH, on and on and on! This car has been an ongoing nightmare since she bought in 1996! Also, the crash test ratings SUCK on this car (and Dodge Stratus, Plymouth Breeze). Whereas, the Camry has FANTASTIC crash ratings.
Bottom line, the Camry may cost a little more in the beginning, but MAN will this car give you pleasureable driving and trouble-free operation for years. However, wearable items mentioned above are to be expected.
QUESTION:
I found Tokico HP Struts (all 4) on Ebay for $310 - is this a good deal? They say they are top of the line and much better than stock.
THANKS!
- Alex
-all windows work (they are the old-fashioned roll-up ones)
-dome light works when front doors open but not back
-rotors are warped
-steering wobble possibly from old worn out tires
-barely cranks in the morning due to weak battery
-super fast racing idle when the engine is cold
-groaning and creaking from front end
-couple of oil leaks; rear seal and cam seal
-badly needs T-belt/water pump replaced
Even with all of this, I love the car, and I plan to own it until it just isn't practical to fix it.
Steve
The solution to this, of course, is to shift manually down to third. Depending on the speed you are traveling, this can still take some time, but it will be noticeably quicker. This is all assuming you've planned your acceleration burst ahead of time.
So what's my point? I guess it's that the whole slow shift thing isn't big deal on a 20K economy minded sedan. Especially if you're a smart driver. Check six.
~alpha
Good luck
I was wondering if anyone with a Gen 4 Camry (97-01) has gotten 200K on theirs yet? If so, how does the car run and what kind of expense has been put into it?
Thanks!
- Alex
If you really want the car, perhaps you can offer this, but dont settle for a premium pricing situation.
~alpha
Dealers order the options on their cars based on local market needs. My local dealer admits it would be very tough to find a 4Cyl SE with the GU option anywhere. He can try to order one for about $20,750. He does not seem at all convinced that he can actually get one!
This GU option is not even easy to find among the V6 XLE's.
~alpha
I find this horrible as my 1996 Camry, 75,000 miles, was averaging 30MPG (same driving habits) - and 38 MPG on highway. I have been to the dealer numerous times, and the "computer" states I should be getting 27MPG or better. I am about to begin arbritration or Lemon Law proceedings. I am hoping phd86 or others who are experiencing these problems can let me know how they are dealing with this and what steps to take.
Thanks!
~alpha
However it should be noted that heavy foot antics will have this 2.4 liter burning gasoline like Audioslave. If you dig acceleration, 20 mpg sounds about right. I'd be pissed too if my Camry didn't get better than 20 mpg under tame driving conditions.
On business trips, I rented a lot of cars. Frankly, among US MFR, GM cars were the worst. Ford and Chrysler cars had problems but were way better in handling and performance.
I rented a GM Corsica in Toronto and was driving on highway in the middle of the winter. The seal on the driver door was way off. You could see right through the door gap around the hinges. Needless to say freezing air was blasting into the car and I was livid!
I also rented many full-size GM cars when I need the big trunks during vacations. They all have about the same problems with the shimmying front ends, which require a lot of effort and concentration just to stay on the road! The Corvette is the only GM car with fairly decent steering presision!
I feel sorry for the old folks who buy these big and inferior US cars, then have to work very hard just to drive these pieces of junk around! A lot of accidents and possibly heart attacks were probably caused directly ior indirectly by these junky cars.
Back in 1989, I was driving a 2-seater sport car and had no ideas about family sedans. I rented a large Buick in San Diego. It wore me down just driving around locally. Then this brand-new Buick broke a coolant hose and started spraying steam profusely on the street. I coached it back in front of the Grand Hotel, went into the lobby, called up and swore at the rental car agency, demanding an immediate replacement. The rental car guys were pretty smart. They immediately sent over a brand-new white 1989 Camry. They figured out a way to completely dispense away my anger!
I drove the Camry around San Diego for a few days and fell in love with it in light of the extremely high work load I experienced driving the large Buick!
I was impressed enough that I bought a 1989 4CYL CAMRY which was assembled in Japan. After 15 years, 2 minor accidents and 252K miles, I still have this car. It would still cruise confidently at 95 MPH on long hauls.
It did not cost me much in maintenance or repairs. I did all the tune ups, oil and brake pads changes myself, mainly because it would take far less time for me to do good work than waiting around the shops.
The only items replaced in shops were bent axles(50K-my fault), PWR steering SS line and brake master cylinder(150K), rear brake calipers, fan and driver window motor (200K), slightly leaking radiator and worn starter(220K), and various items like tires, brake rotors. Even the 4 original struts are still working fine!
That should explain why I would never consider buying any US cars any time in the near future!
A different Atlanta-area Toyota dealer told me today that LE models were "not available" with the GY option. Only an hour later, it was suddenly no problem for him to get an LE with side & side-curtain airbags! It makes no sense to lie to a potential customer about the availability of important safety features on a $20,000 purchase. What - he thought I'd never find out that he had lied?
The $1000 GU option with VSC is definitely worth getting, even in the sun belt, since any rain will release oil from the pavement, making roads slippery and cars susceptible to slipping, sliding and roll over.
I was in a few situations in South Cal when I was unable to stop or control direction of the car in the rain. When you lose control of the car, you may hit or get rammed by other cars around you, hit something on the side of the road, roll over in the ditch.
Of course it's not as dangerous as the snow belt, but avoiding any chances of accident will prevent potentials for pain, injuries, loss of income....
Hope you will get your new car with the GU option. Try it out and tell us how well it works.
With regard to American cars, a lot has changed since the late 80s and early 90s, and many American cars are very good vehicles. The new Ford Five Hundred comes to mind. While not class leading, it seems to be a very good car at a very good price. Personally, this isnt a forum to bash American cars, so I hope that stops. That said, in the auto publications and among owners, the gap between the Japanese/European execution of vehicles and that of the Koreans and Americans... is narrowing.
~alpha
I assume your concern about being critical of American cars on this forum was addressed to mcgirl0730, though...
Good luck with your purchase, realoldgeek.
~alpha
I remember a few years back about how everyone was going on about the "improved, very good" Chrysler offerings. Intrepid, PT Cruiser, etc. While those cars were somewhat unique to previous Chrysler models, they certainly don't qualify as very good cars. Check resale value.
So let's hold off on the awards for the Ford Five Hundred until a few miles are on that car. I DO hope American cars are improving. But just saying so, doesn't make it so...
He had to spend lots of nights and weekends on the jobs so I hope he and his girlfriends had time to enjoy that car!
I checked out the MB C240 with V6 and AT. The engine made a lot of macho noise but the AT was very jerky. It drove like the old Nissan 280Z with manual trans I used to have!
The C240 may be a nice boys' car, but I don't think you want to drive your family in it for the jerky transmission! Also you would not want to have your family stranded on the road. I found a lot more new MB's broken down on roads and freeways in Socal than ANY OTHER BRANDS (OK Alpha, a little German bashing here!)
OTH, a friend of mine, driving a MB S430 at night, rear ended a parked truck at about 70MPH and just walked away from the car with scratches! Anyone managed to do that in a Toyota, Lexus, Honda or Acura, please post your experiences!
You are definitely right about the exceptional values of the luxury ride in the Camry. Enterprise used to rent out 4-cyl Camry as luxury cars for the same price as the Ford Lincolns.
I live on top of a 1000-ft hill with a very steep grade to get to the top. My 93 LE with 2.2L I4 engine and AT had plenty of torque to climb up a few times everyday!
The 89 Camry AT with 2.0L I4 engine is slightly under-powered. I usually give it a fast headstart at the bottom of the hill and it does fine. The engine never knocks during the climb.
I used to drive the hilly and twisty route 101 between LA and San Francisco in both cars. They both had adequate engine power and smoothness of the xmission to travel with ease. They both lacked passing power so I had to plan all passings carefully, or not passing at all. Overall they did not frustrate me that badly!
I remember renting a Nissan Maxima with V6 engine that did far worse in both engine torque and xmission control on the rolling hills in Northern AZ, near the Grand Canyon.
Camry's new 2.4L I4 engine should do better for passing.
~alpha
If I decided I would like to custom order a Camry, can I still expect to get as good of a trade in value on my old car and still negotiate using the "True Market Value" price that I get from this site? Please let me know any experiences you've had in similar situtations.
Thank you for your help, I hope to be joining this board as an owner soon :-)
Eric
I don't know jack about it's mechanical abilities, but it has be the most uninspiring launch of a new model line ever. That car will be around for 3-4 years and then will be discontinued. The commercials are good for some laughs though.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/reviews/Ford/1099493517/
It takes time to move from 4th gear back to 1st when the petal hit the floor @ 25mph! It tends to reluctant to downshift unless you push it hard! Overall, the downshift is "just a bit" slower than the older camry! Well, i guess that is for fuel economy!
I owned a '95 Avalon before this car. Even with ECT power disengaged, the car would shift much quicker. With ECT on, lag was never an issue. It only had four gears to choose from, so I expected some increase is shift times. Was just more noticeable than I'd like.
As far as the moonroof, does it cause a lot more windnoise, especially after a few years? Any problems with leaks?
Thank you,
Eric
My personal preference is to keep this forum garbage-free. If you can substantiate your claim that the Ford Five Hundred = Edsel, by all means, provide factual information and do so.
But if you're going to make inflammatory statements simply for the sake of reading your own postings, please refrain.
Basically, all you were able to do was state your opinion that the vehicle had an uninspiring launch. That holds very little water, especially when you flat out state you have no frame of reference with respect to the vehicles functioning.
In closing, let's try to keep the information exchange here factual.
~alpha
They both look like opinions to me. Why is your opinion more valid than his?
You offer excellent information on this and other boards, but please remember, you are a member, not a moderator.
Not every opinion needs factual backup. Opinions are what they are: the thoughts of an individual who offers a discourse on a subject.
Some of those thoughts may not be entirely factually accurate, but it is up to other posters to correct or debate them, right?
I never claimed to be a moderator. But simply because Im not a moderator, doesnt mean I can't advocate objectivity and intelligent conversation. Of course, if I am overstepping my bounds, rest assured that Pat will take care of me
And my opinion is definitely not worth more than anyone else's. However, I'd argue most rational people tend to appreicate an opinion backed by some sort of reasoning.
Bottom Line: I think theres a big difference between making a sensational statement without foundation, that the Five Hundred = Edsel (ian721), and saying that the Five Hundred looks to be a decent entry (me).
Besides, if ian really wants to talk about the Five Hundred, he/she should stop by that forum and make his/her claim.
~alpha
Go back and read it again -- a poorly conceived car poorly marketed which is likely to fizzle out within a few years. And I included a link to a car review that backs me up. Why the hell would I care to make an inflammatory statement about the Ford 500? I couldn't care less about that car except that I happened to notice a few commercials and a few reviews for it and then someone else brought it up in this forum (maybe THAT person should have gone to the Ford board?). Then, lo and behold, my opinion spilled forth. Oh, the horror. I hope your delicate constitution can handle it.
If you're trying to make this forum garbage free you should start by not feeling the need to respond to everybody all the time.
I have an '03 XLE with leather, heated seats and moonroof. Living around Toronto, we appreciate heated seats for the winter.
The car is now two years old...the seats look like new...we previously had a Sienna XLE and the leather held up perfectly. The heated seats have no effect on the leather as far as I know.
I have had no problems at all with the sunroof. They do exhibit some noise when open on the highway, but we primarily have it open at lower speeds. Some owners like the sunroof wind deflectors, but I am not a fan...don't like the looks of them, and a neighbour had one split after a couple of years.
This Camry is the nicest car we have ever had and intend to keep it for many years.
Good luck.
Doug
Toyota stonewalls and refuses to fix problem