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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall



  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I had to run to store, and then back researching. Thanks for responding.

    Those of you others addressing full out acceleration and brakes - there is section addressing this question posed by you. Review summary at end. Answers some questions. Seems full out throttle , the vacuum power assist of brakes cannot be replenished and effectiveness of brakes significantly reduced. Brake force in excess of 150 pounds was required to stop vehicle. Compared to 30 pounds operating normally. You can read rest.

    One of many Pictures included.
    Picture showing how pedal stuck with all weather floor mat looks good.

    I did go out to attempt this in my RAV4 as I have two layers of carpets in my vehicle. Before anyone gets upset & scolds me - is no issue as had already checked when I left both in. Rubber mat has rubber prongs throughout on bottom that grab carpet and it stays in place. My mats don't move period. Mine are Standard Toyota RAV4 All Weather Rubber Floormats. Distance from mats in position on floor to raised pedal area is approximately 2-3 inches. Floor pedal area is raised surface above floor base..

    I attempted to place my rubber mat in position so when pedal fully compressed it would get stuck. Wow - so difficult. Mat would have to be moved so far ahead and up into raised part of floor into pedal area - just in the precise position to replicate this picture and make pedal stick. Find difficult to see it move(mine don't) that far up if mat has rubber prongs - rubber mats are not smooth on bottom. And I discovered pedal would have to be fullly depressed first to actually get it stuck - could not have pedal up and then fully depress & get it stuck.. I tried many times. My RAV4 pedal appears same outwardly- not sure.

    RAV4 is not ES350. So can only assume could be different configuration.

    DHTSA does seem to send out letters to investigate floormats.. Results given in this report. I do see one fault and can not comment. Report statements too vague, and no complete details listing questions asked. This particular sections does reveal faulty statistical research data. Interesting 59 of 600 that responded had UA - & 35 c/o pedal interference w rubber floor mat. But still vague stated results. No reference to questions actually asked. Medical statistical research data I have helped review & discuss for Diabetes usually has.

    Here is link from DHTSA Final Report April 30, 2008
    re: 2007 Lexus ES-350 Unintended Accleration 07-010%20Lexus%20Floor%20Mat.pdf

    Have not fully analyzed anything else as yet. Will let you form your own
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Here you go - Toyota announcement is first. Must keep reading as in more than opne location. Second is another article - and where I got Toyota link. .html'
    Boy must check if I have already. Prius has already?? And must find that NY times article today.
    Did you bookmark it??? If you did could you send link to me???
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Many consumers are not totally aware of the issues with the recall. And enough will not pay attention. Time will tell.
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Posts: 1,739
    Must have been him as I could tell by the broken english. :shades:
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    Yup,that was a hoot !! Maybe he is from China trying to get a foothold through the import mantra !! Boy,you need some serious talent to write that article..He is da man!! :P
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,079
    Are the fixes being put into the cars on the lot and business as usual? How long will they hold off on selling their vehicles?
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    If the brake pressure goes above a certain threshold and the throttle sensor isn't near idle then OPEN the EFI ground return circuit.

    You're relying on sensors and software again. We have plenty of machines in our factory that jam each day because a sensor gets a piece of fuzz across it, or the sensor got bumped and knocked out of alignment. Brake pressure would be monitored by a pressure transducer, which then sends a 4-20mA signal to an I/O board which then has software to correlate that into a pressure reading and process that. How is all that more reliable then a button connected via a mechanical rod, to a valve that is mechanically powered by pre-loaded springs.

    I'm proposing something simple like a bear-trap (leg-trap). Look up U.S. electrical codes and documents from OSHA and you'll see the codes on how E-Stop systems should work. These sorts of concepts for factory and industrial equipment apparently haven't made their way into many consumer products.

    On 2nd though I do have one that might meet that concept. My Sears garden-tractor, has a mechanical-rod under the seat, such that you need about 50 LB of weight on the seat for it to stay running. The battery is right there. You get up off the seat, or fall off on an incline, and the engine stops. The whole tractor cost $900. These safeties to kill the engine can be rather cheap. We don't need all sorts of electronics on board a vehicle to kill the power.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,079
    The simple solution is to go back to the regular old ignition key switch. It directly cut power to the engine. They worked very well without all the confusion. Get rid of the steering wheel lock associated. If they want to keep that tie it to locking the car.

    The unneeded complexity is what turned me off on the hybrids. I was an early proponent. Then when people were stalling on the Interstate by the dozens I had to rethink the whole concept. In 50+ years of driving, much in some of the worst weather known to man, I never felt the need for any of the modern electronic devices in a car. Besides a radio. If I had my way ABS, and all the rest would be stuffed up the tailpipe of the regulators at the EPA, NHTSA, CARB and any other meddling agency.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "...relying on sensors and software again..."

    Yes, but only as a backup, failsafe, in case the primary control system fails.

    The probability of both systems failing simultaneously approaches nil'lity
  • beachfish2beachfish2 Richmond VAPosts: 177
    Take it one more step, I want a plain old Chevy ignition switch that allows the key to be removed while the engine is running. That way I can take the keyring to unlock a gate or outbuilding, or simply not have to listen to the keys jingle while I bounce down a rough track. Or a potholed interstate in Richmond.

    I had the gas pedal stick under the mat on my used '67 Chevelle. Those were the days, a small V8, a 283, a Powerglide trans and a set of chains. The car came from my aunt; the chains from my father. I was at Va Tech and when the sky was dreary and the snow was blowing we called Blacksburg Bleaksburg.

    I shoveled snow 3 times yesterday and everytime I went near the new Highlander the little lights under the side mirrors came on. Stop that. Does it mean I've unlocked the door? Where's that 612 page owner's manual. :) The nav book is only 268 pages.

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    For about 5 years of my early adult working life I was involved in machine tool, mostly NC machines, maintainance at Boeing. Every one of those machines had at least one big red E-STOP button. Two, mostly, one on the main operator console and a second one on the traveling pendant.

    My next job was designing computer control systems for the lumber industry. All of the operator control panels had an E-STOP button with control circuitry independent of the computer controls.

    "..can be rather cheap.."

    And pretty DAMN intrusive...!!

    Lean over slightly to turn and check the rear attached rototiller and the engine shuts off. Bump the cutting blade drive engagement lever with your right knee and the engine shuts off.....

    Find me a lawn mower or garden tractor with these "safties" still intact and I'll award you $10 but you pay me $100 for every one that isn't.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,231
    >And pretty DAMN intrusive...!! Lean over slightly to turn and check the rear attached rototiller and the engine shuts off. Bump the cutting blade drive engagement lever with your right knee and the engine shuts off.....

    I understand completely about what you mean about the sensitivity of some safety features like the dead man shutoffs. Can that be adjusted to be less sensitive to your moving weight on it?

    However, I was reared in farm country and live in an area where we're surrounded by real farms. The number of farmers who were maimed or died when they fell off their tractor as the equipment behind them ran over them was unnecessarily high. I realize that most of them did something that I would never have done in the way of being safe. But sometimes the auto shutoffs would have helped.

    And almost yearly we have someone using their minitractor to mow their "estate" and they fall off and the thing maims or kills them.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "..reared in farm country..."

    For me, cotton farming in the Mississippi river low lands in NE AR. My dad farmed with mules, never transitioned to tractors. In the early 50's a run-a-way mule team spooked by thunder put an end to his farming days.
  • dturrdturr Posts: 70
    See the Toyota advert running today, all the soft calming music pictures of the lines at a stop. Too little to late. Why no factual information on the message.

    The local SW Florida Toyota dealer beat them to it with messages on Tv that they have 300 new vehicles certified fixed. WOW. What happened to customers first.

    Plenty of information to come out of Europe early this week as the tabloid press are far more willing to get into Toyota and pushe for the truth.No one over in Europe is happy with Toyotas piece of metal fix.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 10,072 lost me after "as I seeing"........

    Punctuation, spelling and grammar are your friends. Rely on them.
    2018 Acura TLX SH AWD ASpec
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Forget the recalls, Toyota will have bigger problems...

    2011 Hyundai Sonata
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    And pretty DAMN intrusive...!!

    It depends where you put them. I've never put a parking brake on, unless I meant to put a parking brake on. I don't know anyone who ever has accidentally applied one while driving. Put a mechanical E-Stop down on the floor where the parking brakes used to be.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 63,046
    NE AR?

    I think they farm a lot of catfish up that way, now... :)


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  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Here is Los Angeles Times report today. Refer to bottom of article. Reporter states Toyota cannot install Brake override into recall models as Toyota did officially confirm on their website November 25, 2009. Computer memory appears to be too limited to do. Also reported Toyota may have not install brake over now in future models as well.

    Unable to confirm validity of these statements. Can't find any other information on this so far. Hope these statement are incorrect.,0,- 2932068.story?page=2
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    I wouldn't take too serious anything the media says today about this problem. They are in full hype mode.

    As to inadequate memory preventing a brake override install on some vehicles, could be. But how many cars? Which models? Why write about such stuff without providing relevant information? Maybe it applies only to vehicles 10 years old. Shame on the LA Times.

    Missing from all of these articles is specific information identifying the cause of UA, its frequency, or any effort to separate incidents of human error from defective parts.

    And still missing is any evidence that the gas pedal assembly has caused a single accident. European authorities had reports of 26 sluggish or sticking pedals (out of how many cars?) but not one accident resulted.

    This problem appears to be less dangerous, probably far less dangerous, than driving while talking on a cell phone. We need to get a little perspective.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,231
    Wow. :sick:
    Sorry to hear that.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I definitely would not rely upon LA Times or any news media report. I continue to rely upon Toyota Announcement they released Nov 25, 2009 on their website. But will continue observing if any news develops re: this news release report today

    Yes, agree news report too vague. No actual facts mentioned.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 10,072
    sharonki....therein lies the problem. There's not much confidence that Toyota does indeed have the correct fix. Nor, do they seem willing to address the entire scope of the problems, either.

    I don't think there's a lot of confidence in Toyota's supposed fix actually addresses the true cause of the UA and brake issues that have been widely reported.

    It's going to take more than just a simple apology. I think something more tangible is needed here...perhaps substantially extending their warranties. But, that's something they don't seem to be willing to do, at least not yet. I don't see anyway around that, though.

    In every newspaper I've looked at, Toyota's woes are on the front page, almost daily. Every news broadcast I've seen has at least one blurb on Toyota's issues. Not only do they have a safety and quality problem (probably the worst possible problem to have for any car manufacturer....that their cars aren't safe), they also have a perception problem.

    It's going to take a good long while, much longer than it takes to fix their cars to overcome the perception problem.
    2018 Acura TLX SH AWD ASpec
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 11,781
    i'm sure if the manufacturer had provided the answers to the questions you asked, they would have been happy to include it in the story.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2014 Ford F-150 FX4
  • revitrevit Posts: 476
    Inquiries have halted, says Corolla seller
    Resale values of recalled vehicles drop amid worries

    Many Toyota owners who are trying to sell their cars may have to drop their asking prices.

    Resale values for Toyotas that have been recalled fell by as much as 3% this week, or about $450 on a car valued at $15,000, according to Kelley Blue Book. They could fall further next week if Toyota's quality issues stay in the news.

    And they likely will.

    Next week, Toyota is slated to testify before a congressional committee about the automaker's massive recalls. The federal government also continues to investigate brake issues in the 2010 Toyota Prius hybrid.

    Meanwhile, owners of models that Toyota has told its dealers to stop selling, such as the popular Camry, are finding it tough to attract buyers.

    Todd Oakley, 46, of Jackson, who is trying to sell a 2007 Camry, said he is waiting for the controversy to blow over.

    "We'll still try to sell it," he said. "I'm sure it will take a little extra time."
    Selling a recalled Toyota

    Tony Schepis sees a challenging task in his future: selling a recalled Toyota.

    "I think it's going to be impossible," said Schepis, who owns Schep's Garage in Lansing, where he often sells vehicles for his customers.

    A few inquirers of the green 2009 Toyota Corolla stopped calling after Toyota stopped selling and making eight recalled models last week, including the Corolla.

    "It's been absolutely quiet," said Schepis. "People have backed right off. I think they're waiting to see what's going to come of this."
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    >>>i'm sure if the manufacturer had provided the answers to the questions you asked, they would have been happy to include it in the story.

    I'm considerably less sure about that than you. Unfortunately, Toyota doesn't have the answers either. The media and public demand that they fix a problem that, so far, remains unidentified, or even accurately quantified. So, they're now going about fixing anything that looks even possibly defective, hoping they get lucky.
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    >>I think something more tangible is needed here...perhaps substantially extending their warranties.

    I doubt the gesture would accomplish much. People are easily frightened. Nothing short of an end to the reported incidents will likely calm the waters. Publicity alone, though, will generate more reports of problems, whether from jumpy people or real defects we won't know for a long time.

    Yes, it is going to take more than an apology. But absent knowing the cause of the problem, they're in a tough bind.
  • If they'd not been blowing off customer reports of problems like mine, they'd have more to go on. They only started paying attention when they got bad press. On the other hand, if the Prius brake issue is typical, they may well suspect or know exactly where the problems are and just not want to admit it.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    The answer is so simple. Buggy code? Rewrite the code. Yep all of it. Not enough memory? When rewriting the code manufacture a new ECU with enough memory. What's the problem. So what if you have to do it for 10 million cars.
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Posts: 1,739
    10 million cars, do you realize what that would cost Toyota? Billions and Billions. There is no way they will spend that kind of money. Whatever it costs you can bet it won't cost over a couple bucks per vehicle plus labor which could cost them hundreds of millions.
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