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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Comments

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    I agree.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Could this be a little "war of words" after GM make statment at an auto show claiming the supplier of steering was to blame and then made sure to mention Toyta is partial owner?? Toyota responding with a few claims of their own against GM for their bankruptcy avoidance w skipping out on Nummi workers??
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,077
    Oddly enough, the moderators agree - please leave political discussion to forums better suited for such conversation. We already have a number of topic-oriented discussions that are appropriate for UAW talk, and we even host a few politically-oriented discussions. This is not one of them.

    I see a lot of talk about the recall repair being a "bust." Has anyone here had a repair done under this recall? Do you feel it worked for you?

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  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    Kirstie,where is the political discussion thread?Cant find it. How do you go to it from the main Edmunds forums carspace page??
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,880
    Forget Bushisms, Biden Gaffes, We have Obama blunders is one of which I'm aware, if the hosts don't mind my interjecting the link.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,277
    edited March 2010
    My intentions were not to turn this into a thread about politics. I apologize if I offended you. I was sharing a link (one of many) that accuses the recent spat with Toyota nothing more than (to sum up politely) a smear campaign brought on by our Government and in an attempt to prop up it's 50 billion dollar investment in GM and to line the pockets of Attorneys and organized labor which stands to benefit from all this.

    At a maximum, sudden acceleration in Toyotas has led to 34 deaths since 2000 according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, putting it somewhere between slipping in the bathtub and being struck by lightning as a Leading Cause of Death. By way of comparison, roughly 40,000 people die in highway accidents every year. Even if all the Toyota fatalities had occurred in one year, which they didn't, that would represent less than 1/1000 of all automotive fatalities.

    If the government were really concerned about safety, they'd address the other 40,000 deaths, but that's not the point. The point is to distract voters and to enrich their union supporters


    Btw, not that it matters here but I'm pretty much non-partisan and I also voted for our current president so I have no reason to bash the party I elected. But the intentions with this whole situation are so glaringly obvious, I have lost a great deal of respect and frankly I am insulted by how low these jackholes will go to justify their actions. :sick:
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,880
    edited March 2010
    Along the same lines, I heard on an overnight talk show that the toyota problems are caused by sabotage. Also an outrageous tenet.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    If Toyota suffered from any sabotage, it was by their own hand and their own arrogance.

    Toyota tried to bury their problems and sold their unsafe products to the world. They are now paying the price and will continue to pay the price with customers who will not jump to buy their products so readily. Toyota, by their own arrogance, has ruined any kind of trust they created with their loyal customers and any potentially new customers.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Actually - please do not feel you offended me at all. I am not (not to be mentioned here) either.

    I apologize if I offended you.

    My point was just to mention lots of news reports out there. Lots coming at us, and so difficult to keep up with them.

    I too, wish other causes of accidents were being addressed as well. But the "hot issue" now seems to be SUA/UA. Can be good, as maybe this one cause can finally be addressed.

    NHTSA has now been raised to possible total of 52 deaths as testified at last hearing, but still need to be investigated further to see if actually is a correct number. Seems like when this all started NHTSA had only one death, and then has steadily gone up. May be related to complaint categoriztion, DHTSA being a voluntary data base, etc. ???

    Thank you for letting us know how you see this. Great to see other opinions. I see this coming to be because of the San Diego crash and because driver was CHP officer..And the CHP released 911 tape. That was a heartbreaking tragedy. Four lives lost. Press pressure - story, facts came out regarding the timeline of US/SUA. Human lives were lost and hundreds of accidents possibly linked to SUA/UA exist. Just do not feel the loss of human life can just be disregarded. Numbers are just too high.

    As far as the actual numbers of UA/SUA we still don't know for sure. Toyota has many, NHTSA has some, some elsewhere, some never lodged. This is all just voluntary reporting. Studies done from NHTSA is good. Would stats be same if manufacturers legally requited to submit their complaints? I have no idea.
  • greg128greg128 Posts: 423
    edited March 2010
    .I found this in my local paper yesterday. (Long Island Newsday) I think it speaks for itself ...

    image
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    This is a good article regarding EDR's, complaints, and is good for comparing what other manufacturer's doing. Came from business section under a market search of Toyota and news releases. Have seen other reports making similiar claims about Toyota and EDR's. Good to see other manufacturers are doing already. This would be great to help accident reconstruction. CHP/police really need this. Must compare with the other articles I have bookmarked.

    All is legal at present, since law has not been implemented as yet. September 1, 2012 appears to be date so far. Am not sure why it took almost 12 years to become law, when technology has been there all along.

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/science/6897637.html
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 13,891
    edited March 2010
    on the toyota 3.5 V6.
    it is an interesting engine in that it has 2 fuel injection systems.
    one is the common port injection type and the other is direct injection.
    basically, it uses the port injection early on and phases out its' function as the direct injection system takes over. the computer decides how much of the load each system provides.
    2017 Ford Fusion SE 2017 Ford F-150 Limited
  • Looks like a car, possibly a 5 - 8 year old Toyota Camry, crashed into a wall.

    But what evidence is there that unintended acceleration was behind the crash?

    Maybe the driver was talking on his cell phone. Or looking out the window. Or dozed off for a couple of seconds.

    The picture alone doesn't address the UA issue.
  • Here is some evidence of a different sort. This is a Toyota internal July 6 2009 slide presentation from Inaba (who was at congressional hearing). The second to last slide titled Key Safety Issues includes Sudden Acceleration on multiple models. Inaba and Toyoda testified that the first they were aware of a sudden acceleration issue was in November.

    The last slide titled Toyota Wins, under Defects says "negotiated...no defect found" for Sudden Acceleration saving $100 million. During the hearing, Inaba testified that he was not aware of any claimed savings of $100 million for negotiating a deal with NHTSA.
    Internal Toyota Documents Related To Recall
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,527
    I think that's around an 03 model. Looks like a typical Camry driver parking job ;)
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Yes, I have this same document saved. During hearing Inaba claimed he could not remember this presentation. Claimed it was during his orientation. But I had some difficulty believing him. His name is on document. And could appears/mean he gave this presentation.

    Also he claims he was unaware of $100 million saved re: UA.SUA. - appears is a legal strategy stance approach only. He has long professional background with Toyota. Very difficult to believe him.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    This is Toyota's crisis. It was their vehicle in San Diego crash. And all else that has become public since then. So many misstatements, and inconsistancies in statements. Etc, etc, etc. I kept hoping Toyota would put out some good solid proof to stomp out the bad publicity. That never happened.

    And if it could have been another manufacturer if they had hx & higher complaints too. None of them are immune.

    Good lesson - have excellent crisis management plan in place.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Here are Dave Gilbert's actual findings. Testimony at hearings & report given for record. Hope some bright minds here have some comments.

    http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Toyota.Electronic.Throttle.Co- ntrol.Investigation.pdf

    http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100223/Toyota.Electronic.Throttle.Co- ntrol.Investigation.pdf
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Posts: 77
    edited March 2010
    Here is one person's opinion. They have proved that certain sensor malfunctions are not detectable by the ECM. However I think that finding is unrelated to what is happening. Symptoms being reported indicate the opposite is occurring. A malfunctioning ECM gets into a state where it cannot process inputs from perfectly good sensors whether it be the pedal sensor, shifter position sensor, ignition off sensor, and in the case of the Prius the brake depressed sensor (which is supposed to activate brake override logic and bring the engine to idle). At the same time, the malfunctioning ECM has instructed the ETC to move to the Full Open position. Odds are this malfunctioning ECM won't be logging any information in the EDR any more either (in cars that have it). This all seems too obvious for the experts to be missing it.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,277
    LOL, cars jumping ther curb happen all the time. This is really grasping at straws putting Toyota on the spot for an incident as common as a traffic ticket... :sick:
  • lemkolemko Philadelphia, PAPosts: 15,306
    Sound like this knucklehead at work saying GM sabotaged Toyotas with Mexican parts when stories of Toyota's SUA first broke out. Wow, then that's the most successful act of sabotage in history to take out 10 million cars of various years and models!
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    Who do you believe? CR would have US believe that Ford had nearly as many complaints as Toyota. Ford was not even close in any way you look at that list. I don't think there is anyway to spin away Toyota's UA problem. They need to find the problem and fix it. 7.5 complaints per 100 thousand cars in 2009 MY is unacceptable. GM was only 0.4 complaints per 100 thousand. And they sold a lot more cars than ToyLex.

    It would be interesting to see if any of the VW/Audi & BMW complaints ended in crashes. Did their brake override systems work? Mercedes did not have a single complaint. It would seem they have their DBW working right. Maybe Toyota could talk to them and spend some of their $billions on better technology.
  • wwestwwest Posts: 10,706
    "..too obvious for the experts to be missing it..."

    Knowing what is happening, or probably happening, might be a LONG way from finding the causative factor(s).
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    Nice chart.

    It is interesting to note that Chrysler products get ragged on by quite a few people, but yet in this graphic have a better vehicle than Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

    Chrysler vehicles may not be the most sophisticated vehicles or fuel efficient vehicles out there but they are ruggedly built. I own a Jeep Liberty with a diesel and love it.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,277
    I don't have a whole lot of negativity towards Chrysler, they've been through a rough decade being passed around by Daimler and then grossly mislead by Cerebus.

    I agree that your Liberty is a fine vehicle, gas mileage notwithstanding on the petrol models). I do recall however that Jeep met with and implemented Toyotas production methods when it came to setting up the assembly lines to ensure top quality. In doing so the Liberty is one of the higher rated Chryco products for quality and reliability.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    edited March 2010
    I don't have a whole lot of negativity towards Chrysler, they've been through a rough decade being passed around by Daimler and then grossly mislead by Cerebus.

    When Daimler merged with Chrysler some years ago, it was a big mistake for Chrysler. Daimler raped Chrysler and left them with practically nothing except a little of their, Daimler, DNA.

    Chrysler was dumped on Cerebrus as an empty shell of itself and all Cerebrus wanted to do was make money off of Chrysler by selling it for more than it was worth and not make money by improving Chrysler itself.

    As to quality of assembly, my Liberty is as tight as a drum. No squeaks or rattles anywhere even on the worst of roads or off roads. The fit and finish are still first class in spite of five years of D.C. traffic and D.C. weather.
  • carbuff1171carbuff1171 Posts: 77
    edited March 2010
    "Knowing what is happening, or probably happening, might be a LONG way from finding the causative factor(s)."

    Agreed, but that was not my point of saying "..too obvious for the experts to be missing it..."
    1. If we have experts doing extensive research on whether the ECM can detect a faulty sensor, that tells me that their initial hypothesis of "what is probably happening" is wrong and not based on evidence right in front of them. Those mistakes only mean it will take longer than necessary to get to the causative factor.
    2. If there are Toyota models that already have brake override programmed-in that are experiencing SUA (e.g. Prius), why would anyone accept the claim, even for one minute, that installing brake override in other models is a fail-safe just in case the problem is not really the pedals?

    Part of my job includes investigating software bugs that can cause malfunctions analogous to these, just not in autos. They can be nasty to get to the bottom of even when it is happening on a computer that is "sitting still". Faced with figuring it out when it is happening to a computer careening at over 100 mph creates a greater challenge. On one hand I can sympathize with how difficult this is, but once lied to, my sympathy fades quickly.

    I had a similar feeling about the obvious being overlooked during the hearings. The early highlights were the testimony of a Lexus ES350 owner experiencing SUA and the grilling of the NHTSA chief about why they did not put two-and-two together sooner. Then, did even one congress-person put two-and-two together and ask Toyoda why no Lexus models were included in the actions taken against the Toyota models (freeze sales, recall)? There were people driving away in their new brand new ES350's the whole time. Toyota models are one thing, but how much worse it would be for Toyota if they tarnished Lexus' reputation by including them?
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    Ha3x.. VW/AUDI has more UA than Toyota! So much so about DBW theory or other ECM malfunction, yet no one mentions about the driver's skill to operate a motor vehicle.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,880
    edited March 2010
    Here comes another round of obtuse answers to direct questions. I notice also the Americanizing of the company. Where's Toyoda telling us how safe they are.

    Now they're spending money on advertising to counter what they want the question to be and not what is actually the question.

    What's important is the behind the scenes things that happen to affect how other sources will portray toyota to the stakeholders in this fiasco. Buy a little influence here; buy a little there. Soon all these sources will be telling the US buyer how great and how safe the cars are. People won't know about the backroom dealing that bought the frontline statements. Sort of like DC buying influence with money to Nebraska or giving a judgeship to a reluctant legislator's relative.

    Yesterday the news was about cars with the faux fixes having UIA. Today toyo's telling us about how the cars a failsafe. :P

    image

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,880
    >VW/AUDI

    What kind of coverup is VW participating in? Or have they been reporting all UIA events. Do their dealers document all complaints?

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    VW/AUDI has more UA than Toyota!

    Do you have a link or source to back that up? Or is it just a gut feeling and or wishful thinking. I would love to see that data. One of the biggest Toyota fans on the thread posted the top 117 vehicles with UA complaints. No VW or Audi in the bunch. Lexus held down 4 of the ten WORST. None with CTS throttles to blame on a US manufacturer. All made outside the US of A.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    NHTSA data complaint system is only voluntary. Manufacturers are not required by law to turn over their complaints to NHTSA. Manufacturers do when asked turn over complaints, but numbers not guaranteed. They can turn over what they want. Government does no surprise audits of records.

    I posed a question to bloggers if they had problems with Toyota writing down their complaints when serviced. Immediately there were two that did. Twice they did not write my complaints on my work order, and was not on completed order when paid. Not sure if this is an issue or not.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    Twice they did not write my complaints on my work order, and was not on completed order when paid. Not sure if this is an issue or not.

    Why wouldn't they make note of a problem when described to them by a customer? I can find not one good reason for it other than they were told not to write certain types of problems thus not creating a history of that particular problem. One of the ways to get the manufacturer to buyback a vehicle is through the state's lemon law. It has to be documented that the manufacturer/dealer had three opportunities to fix a safety related problem. If they cannot repair it within three attempts they are required to buyback the vehicle under the lemon law.

    So no record no lemon law no buyback. Sneaky sneaky sneaky.
  • I am the original owner of a 1995 Toyota Avalon with 156,000 miles and never had a recall. I did replace 2 timing belts, one set of spark plugs, one set of front brake pads, a battery, a fan belt and a front axle that was probably my fault by driving into a hole in the rode. That car is fifteen years old, has been garaged and looks and runs like new. I have had zero complaints. I bought that car because my prior two Toyotas were also trouble free with zero complaints.
    Based upon my experience with Toyotas, I purchased a 2008 Toyota Avalon Limited and now have 24,000 miles on it without a repair or a complaint. It is the best car that I have ever owned or driven. I recently received a call back to repair the accelerator pedal, the driver's side all weather floor mat and the VVT-i Oil Hose that has been reported to break and leak the oil out of the car. I am disappointed that these things have occurred, but I am hopeful that corrections will be made and my car will run as well as it is running today. Call backs are not a new phenomenon and have occurred with most if not all car manufacturers. This is a wake up call to all car manufacturers and their workers to put out a better product or their jobs are on the line.
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    This was posted by another user in another thread.



    Sources:
    1
    2

    By using the data above, I can conclude that VW has twice as many complaints about unintended acceleration than Toyota in 2009. Toyota's getting crucified for something that isn't particularly uncommon or unusual. Similar to Audi 5000, where ALL UA on Audi 5000 complaints and deaths are drivers' error. Not suprising due to US law system, sue and blame the other!
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    edited March 2010
    Let try another post to show the chart.

    image

    Sources:
    1
    2
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMPosts: 7,615
    ATTENTION ALL DEALERS:
    Many of you likely have Toyota owners and potential customers coming into your store because of Toyota’s Unintended Acceleration recalls. Many may worry there’s something more than floor mats and “sticky” pedals. And you probably would like to be able to show them proof that Kia vehicles indeed have better designed Electronic Throttle Controls than Toyota. Well, here’s how, just in time for Toyota‘s new sales blitz..
    First, print Dr. Gilbert’s testimony to Congress from here:
    energycommerce house gov/Press_111/20100223/Gilbert.Testimony.pdf
    Note I took out the hyper text protocol indicator and replaced the dots with spaces, so add those back.
    Next, print out the Toyota recall procedure from here:
    images thetruthaboutcars com/2010/02/Tech-Instructions-Preliminary-Posting-BIL.pdf
    Don’t forget to add the http and periods back.
    You’ll want to highlight in Dr. Gilbert’s statement where he said he shorted the sensor leads together without any trouble code being set, and where he said he then connected those two leads to 5V reference voltage and produced WOT acceleration with no DTC/MIL. On the recall procedure, you’ll see the system acceptable voltages on pages 8 and 9. You’ll want to point out two things: At WOT, the two sensor voltages can in fact overlap. And that full system reference voltage is a valid input and wouldn’t set a DTC. Just like Dr. Gilbert’s tests found! It looks like 5V on side 1 might set a code, but the tests indicated that’s not the case, not surprising since there’s only a 10% difference anyway.
    Next, you’ll want to print the system description and specs from the Shop Manual for your car. CAUTION: not every car in the line-up has ETC.
    CAUTION: I’m basing what follows on the Hyundai Azera manual. I cannot fathom that Kia’s system differs, but be sure to verify this. If anyone finds any discrepancies, PLEASE let me know.
    I found it under Fuel System>Engine Control System>Accelerator Position System. The system description and specs clearly show that this system uses resistors to do two things: Choke the maximum voltage on side 1 to 4.35V, so the system can detect a short to reference. And on side two, voltage is choked to 50% of side one. So if a foreign voltage was introduced or somehow induced in the sensor leads, the ECU would know that since it’s ALWAYS looking for side one to be twice the value of side two or a code will be set!
    Remember, this isn’t taking advantage of Toyota’s misfortune. This is a key safety feature that Toyota lacks, just like Active Head Restraints on some of their cars. Remember too that Toyota has avoided warranty claims for repairs on cars that have had UA and likely has avoided costs on cars that might have otherwise experienced MIL for transitory electrical events. Plus they’ve likely avoided negative survey responses on “Check Engine Light”/MIL. Whether or not this design is the root cause of Toyota’s UA claims, it’s still obvious Kia took extra caution and designed extra safety features in that Toyota didn’t.

    I think Toyota's as guilty as all hell. Period. See ya and I really wouldn't wanna be ya Toyota.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    This appears to be the long term study from 1999-2009. Edmunds did a study ovver the last 3-4 years of all NTSA complaints February 22, 2010. You can find in at the bottom of their homepage - press/news releases

    The second study found Toyota did have the highest SUA/UA complaints. Ford came in second, etc.

    The first study which was a long study found Toyota 17th.

    I consider the second study more informative as it tells you how manufacturer is doing more recently.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Hope NHTSA is not eliminating some complaints as they have done so often in the past.

    Good to see this report for 2009 models only. There would be other reports though. THIS REPORT IS FOR ONLY 2009 MODELS. COMPLAINTS OF OTHER YEAR MODELS WOULD HAVE EXISTED FOR 2009 ALSO.

    So one fulty aspect to this study does exist. Only 2009 model study done. All other year models not counted. Why was this study pushed??? That is good question??

    Just food for thought.
  • sharonklsharonkl Posts: 660
    Toyota did not do twice, but will most certainly not happen again. I noticed, but let it go. On watch now.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    Just curious. What was it that they didn't log down? Was it the only thing it was in for? I'd think it would be difficult if you took it in for one item and they didn't note it. Would be like could you sign here acknowledging that we did correct the item that we didn't log down...lmao.
  • PMOPMO Posts: 278
    I understand your problem , I have had 74 GM products over 53 years and in the beginning the used ones I bought were not bad but $150.00 got you a 54 Chev. $500.00 a 55 Chev. convertible all good cars. The Enclave I have now has great mileage carries my mother (94 the 15 Th of this month) her walker ,the wife ,the dog and it has the Ford/GM six speed transmission with the tow pack.Their has been re calibration once on the trans. The big thing with all the builders of cars in North America, is not one of them knows what the buyer wants. This being said,not one of the customers knows what he wants either. The Dealers being reinstated 600 will help put people back to work. Then you watch Toyota sales come back ? The people having good jobs working for a GM Dealership do also buy Toyota ( would this make sense to you?)
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    edited March 2010
    Just curious. What was it that they didn't log down?

    On my 5000 mile first service I took a list of 11 complaints to the dealer. He typed them all into the computer while I stood there. When they were done he explained why they did not do anything about 9 of the items. When I got my paper work all it showed was the oil change and service. One of the things they claimed they did was not what I asked. I wanted all my tires brought up to 36 lbs. I guess it was too much trouble to also pump up the spare to keep the TPMS light from coming on. So when I checked them the next day they were still at 32 lbs. I finally crawled under and brought the spare up to 36 along with the rest of the tires.

    Next time I went in I told them the tailgate still did not go up when it was below 45 degrees. They had no record of that being addressed on my previous visit. I quit using them for Service. I used a dealer in Indiana on our long trip to do the 15k mile service. Pretty much the same lame excuses for the tailgate and high priced oil change.

    I got Walmart to do my 20k mile service. Using Mobil1 synthetic it cost the same as Toyota oil change with dino oil. Toyota wanted $125 for an off brand synthetic oil change. I will only use the dealers for warranty which I did buy the 7 year platinum $0 deductible plan. Still have those issues which they seem useless to fix. I wonder if my hitting my head on the tailgate when it does not go all the way up is a safety issue? I guess I need to talk to my Congressman, while they have Toyota on the hotseat.
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    The ODD of having UA in Audi/VW is twice more likely than Toyota in 2009, based on NHTSA report.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,880
    > I wonder if my hitting my head on the tailgate when it does not go all the way up is a safety issue? I guess I need to talk to my Congressman, while they have Toyota on the hotseat.

    Toyo will lame you for being too tall or misusing the tailgate. Typical of US buyers so it will be your fault.

    I just sliced a part of my fingertip off on the dryer lip for our Cabrio Whirlpool. I think I'll register a complain. But at least the computer in it doesn't run away with unintended drying and it responds to the OFF button. :blush: :P

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    Look at the ODD, you can spin all u want, but AUDI/VW had twice UA complaints than Toyota in 2009!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,880
    >Toyota in 2009!

    And in the other years, how do they compare?

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,054
    I had almost the same experience with my Chevy dealer except they did log everything down and when picking up the truck it would state "Could not duplicate" after each item. After a few times I got a little smarter. I used to take either the tech or the service manager on a test drive to confirm that they heard the sound. or felt the trans clunk, or smelled the foul air from the a/c. ;)
  • tomjavatomjava Posts: 136
    Look at the chart on post# 2095! AUDI/VW has implemented brake overide feature on all of their cars, and yet they got many complaints on UA. Does it make sense?
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