Like so many others, you are judge and jury yet you don't really have any information other than what you've read or heard. If I lost sleep over unethical behavior of companies and politicians I doubt that I would have slept at all for the last 30 years. I think it is such a random event that they don't know what the problem really is and they are loathe to admit it or yes they have some indication of a problem and they are trying to cover it up. I think that their corporate culture lends itself to secrecy and given the recent reports of corporate espionage why wouldn't they protect everything. Dry statistics are pretty useful in that they help people to see the problem from a systemic perspective. I never said they shouldn't be investigated - but I do object to them being tried and convicted in the press.
I spoke to my dealer in Tucson, Preision Toyota and they told me not to worry about it .They have no intention to replacwe the oil line on my 2006 rav4 . The attitude of this dealer ship is to sell a customer any thing and every they can to a customer expect problems that are under warantee that they are suppose to fix We in Tucson are screwd as we have only two toyota dealers in town and they have capative customers who have no other place for service. There speciality is when a customer comes in for an oil change They say leave the car all day and try to sell them averyting they don't need.
>Actually, for me it was his interview, his body language and poor theatrics were a dead give away.
Exactly what details in his "body language" tell you that to be the case?
And if you're an expert on body language, how about analyzing the body langage of the toyota reps at the congressional hearing and of Lentz and of other toyota shills in interviews in their fraudulant explanations and misexplanations?
I read that they are covering up and misrepresenting. I read that they hold the US market in contempt.
I think that their corporate culture lends itself to secrecy and given the recent reports of corporate espionage why wouldn't they protect everything
It is not Toyota that needs to be protected from corporate espionage. It is other companies patents that Toyota loves to steal. It has been corporate policy for as long as I can remember. My first example was my 1964 Land Cruiser bought new. Toyota used a part for part copy of a Chevy 6 cylinder engine. Only they used cheaper parts and the engine was a disaster. Fast forward to the Prius in question. Toyota stole ideas from several companies and are paying royalties as a result of being sued.
If you worry about Toyota being taken advantage of you need to re-evaluate your value system. That goes for anyone that feels Toyota is being treated unfairly by Congress, NHTSA or the media. It is the consumer that Toyota has used as guinea pigs to test their hybrids and their DBW systems. And so far it is the consumer that is losing, many with their lives.
I'm a Toyota owner here and like Sharon am trying to learn what is the truth about these Toyota events. I'm in the process of shopping for a new vehicle and have to decide whether to keep Toyota on my short list. I have read most of the posts here and admit a few of the pro Toyota posts are over the top especially lately. I do believe there are more bias posters that come on here due mostly to their background(union-D3, etc) with an agenda that are enjoying seeing Toyota having these problems and love sticking it to them while providing no constructive comments.
---I am one however that thinks the latest "event" in SD has red flags all over it. Is it just coincidence this only occurred 5 miles from the Saylor tragedy? I'm not dismissing it but I'm waiting for the engineers to say something after examining the car.
---In fact I'm waiting for the engineers to say anything. I'm tired of the politics and media hype(like Brian Ross doctored video).
I read Claybrook's testimony(thanks Sharon for the post). I haven't seen any reaction from it. I thought she was very forthright and expected something from the "lapdogs".
finally, unless I missed it, where are the all reports and outrage from the rest of the world- Europe, Asia etc. about UA? Did Toyota just send them all to the USA and California specifically?
From what I read recently,there have been problems with the same issue in Japan, and just recently I read a post from a Prius owner in Denmark about his "run away" Prius.My own car has not had those issues,but it does make me a bit nervous. :surprise:
Tom, since Toyota has issued a "limited service campaign" on the VVTi oil line for your RAV4 (they are replacing it with an "upgraded" rubber line, which is better than nothing), I am not sure how a dealer could refuse to do the work. I would go in with a copy of the Toyota paperwork, which is available on various sites (try "toyotav6oillinescandal") and ask pointblank if the dealer is refusing to do a Toyota authorized recall.
Did Toyota just send them all to the USA and California specifically?
I think it is World Wide. We just happen to be Toyota's largest market. I think most cases on UA are only reported to the dealers. And the owner is sent on his way thinking it will not happen again. And most times it does not. That is what makes it hard for Toyota to find. If they are really looking hard???
I thought I read somewhere that Toyota vehicles that had a "J" at the beginning on the VIN number were not affected by thr call. Does anyone know if this true? Thanks, Don
I forget which link reported on this issue aobut other countries and their safety agencies. Thyey did an analysis, spoke with those in charge, and discovered US appears to have a superior system. Japans's is susposed to be very weak and corporations are rarely sued, manufacturers have all/most of the owner complaint information. China has censored system, etc. Not sure of Canada's system.
I was left with impression article report US is best, but still has many problems. US owners are much more proactive, have more organized active safety agencies representing owner/publics safety interests, etc.
Please know this article could not be verified. l have not seen alot of news report information about other countries and their safety agencies.
Yes, I think that to be true but only related to the CTS "sticky" gas pedal recall. CTS was not used in Japanese production. The floor mat recall and the future, upcoming, "reflash" recall will apply "across the board".
This J was made in reports about which vehicles affected. "J" indicated auto manufactured in Japan. Was in reference to the type of pedal- CTS or Denso. Those made in Japan were susposed to not be affected. Those vehicles with J in VIN may also be affected individually according to which model, in other aspects of recall, service bulletins, etc. per Toyota, but am not sure. My model was not in recall so did not check or investigate further.
CTS was blamed was blamed by Toyota for having slight defect, for the aceleration, but pedal really did not cause most of SUA/UA complaints it per testimony during the congressional hearings. There seemed to only be 2+ complaints lodged on NHTSA data base about pedal sticking a little. Differences of expert opinions do exist that fix will eliminate SUA/UA.
Toyota USA Newsroom has all press releases regarding the recalls, instructions and which vehicles included.
I hope we have some sharp people looking at this Prius and get to the bottom of the problem. It will look real bad if the NHTSA finds the flaw and not Toyota. :P
SO....PEEEEZE, just find the darn thing already, and whomever that "honor" goes to.....they can the use (well make all the crazy cell phone users (While driving at least)! :sick:
Ehhhh, :shades: Might as well use the same law to stop them from crunching on the french friesssss
I have a '07 Highlander with a J. It does not have any recalls that I know of. I have not heard of any Highlander involved in any of this mess, UA, mats, sticky pedal, whatever. I don't know if it has DBW, how would know? It is just about the best vehicle I have ever owned. It is the third Toyota I have owned that has never had one defect or issue I needed to repair in the last 10 years. Just sayin for the record for all the bashers here.
Once the brake switch is activated the throttle is set to idle. C'mon man let's not grasp.
HOw far does the brake pedal need to be depressed for the throttle to be set idle? How long does this disabling of the throttle last? I'm sure it doesn't stay off forever.
Let's be real here.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The Autos that have a VIN # beginning with the Letter "J" were assembled in Japan.
Those pedals were supposedly MADE BY DENSO (Japanese) AND NOT CTS (Indiana/Canada plant SO FAR it is only the CTS pedal assembly ...I think the jury is out on the Denso assembly thoughl
A Prius is not safe at any speed over about 45 MPH. Poor handling, braking and wind bucking characteristics. A Corvette or Porsche at 140 MPH is safer than a Prius at 55 MPH. Only a nut case would drive a Prius over 55 MPH.
Surely I hope your just exaggerating.
I see Semi trucks with dual fully loaded trailers driving 65 to 70MPH on the freeway regularly and safely all the time. Surely a Prius could out handle and out brake those behemoths. I find it hard to believe a Prius is unsafe at anything below 70 MPH.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Only far enough to "trip" the brake light microswitch and as long as it remains tripped, if designed correctly.
And remember putting the ICE at Idle is not the "target", putting the entire drive system in regenerative braking mode IS. The ICE itself may well remain well above idle.
Having some fundamental problems in reading comprehension? I never said Toyota needed protection from corporate espionage - I said that their policy of secrecy was not surprising in that context that is pervasive in all industries. My value system is just fine - I don't believe in hanging without evidence - lynch mob behavior is pretty apt analogy I think. I'd like to hope that in our system of justice, no one deserves to be treated unfairly. I see lots of hysteria and lots of conclusions but the actual facts are pretty scarce. All manufacturers have DBW systems and most have Hybrids. How are consumers losing? Please give me some documented deaths confirmed to be caused by SUA. Lots of smoke and emotional responses but very little fire. I have paid attention to the few facts in the situation simply because I own one of the cars and am trying to assess the actual risk and not simply react to what is clearly hysteria.
As a Toyota owner - here is what I have done.
A - I had the recalls performed.
B - I have familiarized myself with the operation of the car and determined that in less than 3 seconds, I can hit the brakes, put the car in neutral, turn on my emergency flashers, and turn the ignition off. I have also determined (by actually doing it in an empty parking lot) that I can still steer the car and that I still have plenty of braking power. I find it very suspicious that people would be willing to run their car at 95 MPH through a busy intersection before trying any and all of these things. I find it hard to believe that someone would grab their cell phone and dial 911 before trying any and all of these things. I conclude that something smells rotten here. I also conclude that these are exceptionally rare events with 3.8 million recalled vehicles on the road and that the chances of me experiencing it are very rare. I have also concluded that if there really is a problem here, it is damn hard to reproduce it. I have concluded that we must, as rational beings accept the fact that some percentage of the reports are people who hit the wrong pedal, are attention seekers, or possibly even suicidal. I conclude that I am probably being hurt more by the accelerated depreciation of my new car than I am by any defect in the car. I conclude that lots of people just like to [non-permissible content removed] and moan.
You vehicle should have ETC system Electronic throttle system or drive by wire. I am providing a link to an article that has Toyota models by years. This seemed to be only site that had listed it so well. Listing is at the end of the document. You can also check with your Toyota dealership for further validation too. .
There is a tendency to write off the Audi 5000 issue as not being Audi's responsibility. the facts are that it most definitely was a design flaw. Yes, there was consensus that the drivers were pressing the gas pedal thinking it was the brake pedal, but why just the Audi 5000? Well, if you have ever driven a 5000 you would know why. The first time I sat in a 5000, I felt awkardly uncomfortable. I was sitting square to the vehicle but my legs were heading off to the left. I could not get comfortable with this when trying to navigate the pedals. So I looked into why the pedals were so far to the left. As it turns out, the longitudinal FWD (engine running N-S instead of the more conventional E-W) creates a very large "transmission" tunnel. It is much larger than other vehicles which necessitates moving the pedals to the left. If you have become accustomed to a more normal layout of pedals, this unusual position leads to the driver thinking he has his foot on the brake when in fact it is on the accelerator resulting in an uncontrolled vehicle. Clearly a bad design.
LOL!!! You are hilarious man!
Even if we take you at surface value. Nothing you wrote or said would be something that could be missed during a simple test drive. Don't like it or got confused, then don't buy it. I don't believe anyone has accused Audi of putting a gun to someone's head to buy an Audi 5000. Therefore, it's the customer's fault, driver error 100%.
The design was apparent to anyone that isn't blind or in a coma. If you found the design to be a poor one, then buying it anyway doesn't make sense.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
If I planned on keeping the RAV 4, I would contact Toyo directly for help on oil line, and if they don't, let them know how you feel about it, then order an all metal oil line from dealer and get an independent garage that works on Toyos to put it in. Get an estimate ahead of time. Also, it's a good idea to get your brakes, filters, wipers and tires checked before taking it in for service so they don't scam you on stuff you don't need. I get my oil changed at dealer for warranty purposes, and they tried to sell me a brake job I didn't need. Refused, of course. They are on commission and make their living selling you things you don't always need. When I get my '06 Avalon oil line replaced, I plan to ask for an all-metal line, and if they refuse I will offer to pay the extra cost for the all-metal line. Mine is recalled for the oil line, so they will pay for it.
Say, a guy who's had an impeccable financial history gets cancer. He can't pay all the medical bills despite having insurance, has to file for bankruptcy, his credit is ruined and he's suddenly a [non-permissible content removed]?
That would be very different to someone that's clearly bought multiple houses with no intention of paying them off, run up over $60K in CREDIT CARD DEBT, and is a real estate agent.
Heck, where on the totem pole do you put those agents, right above banker and insurance agent? Where does car salesman fit?
I'd be willing to bet the farm this guy never had impeccable credit.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The Consumer Reports Annual Auto Issue for April 2010 is just out, and is well worth buying. They are the most respected auto testers. Years ago I worked as a tech in an engineering lab, and they were the "bible" as far as testing products went. Still are. On page 22 they have a used car reliability chart based on repairs made by thousands of their subscribers annually. Toyota is clearly ahead of all the other manufacturers from years two through ten of vehicles' lifetimes. For the first two years they are all fairly similar, but by year ten, Toyos average about 62 problems per 100 vehicles, while Volkswagen and Hyundai are up around 150 problems per 100 cars. But Hyundai are improving rapidly, and their cars 10 years ago were much lower quality than today, so they should be improving rapidly in this chart over the years. That said, they have been shameful in recent years with these problems and customer service. Thanks to all you folks for piling on, because that will only make them better in upcoming years. And I'm not a Toyo nut, because I have two older Ford Tauruses and a Mustang convertable that I like. My Avalon is way better than the Fords, and many Fords have been recalled in past years for electrical fires, exploding gas tanks, etc., but I'm very happy Ford is doing so well now. Consumer Reports currently does not recommend any Toyo products now due to the current problems, but they have never had one of their test cars do it, nor has my Avalon. If it does, I'll be screaming, of course.
To me the California runaway Prius was just too good of a story, happening just as Toyo was making an announcement on their products, going many, many miles on the interstate wide open, brakes not working, but worn out by severe usage, being on tv immediately. Not that it might not be true, but it sure doesn't pass the smell test. I hope the guy is telling the truth and they figure it out, but I'm not at all surprised by his shady background. And was that a picture of a race car of his I saw or his Prius decked out like one? So the guy drives a race car and is afraid to put the car in neutral??? I practice that every day in my Avalon, also practice pushing the parking brake so I have the position memorized. If it's an electronic circuit problem that only occurs once per 100,000 cars, and each car has to be driven 20,000 miles before it happens, they may never find the cause. Every mile your car drives there are hundreds, if not thousands, of voltage changes in the ECM. JMHO.
Apparently you have never moved from a manual transmission vehicle to an automatic one and found yourself inadvertently/aqutomatically using your left foot to depress the clutch and instead hitting the left side of the extra wide brake pedal.
Your instinctive reactions, INITIAL reactions, in a panic situation will not always be the most logical one.
> They are the most respected auto testers. Years ago I worked as a tech in an engineering lab, and they were the "bible" as far as testing products went. Still are.
Almost spit out my coffee when I read that statement.
CR's alleged survey is sort of like having cute little Brownies in the entrance way to Kroger's on Saturday morning taking opinions as people come in to do their shopping. A convencience survey: not a random survey.
CR's opinions in their writeups have more sway than any information they get from their strangely biased demographics of subscribers.Remember when Nader was there.
JD Powers is a true random survey.
Here's a link to one of Edmund's CR and JDPowers discussions for further info.
Thanks for the link, 180 pages, it will take me awhile to digest it, but did find my model listed. You saved me a lot of leg work. Saw interesting table labeled "potential deaths from SUA" One could read a lot into that mistakenly I think.
CTS is an American designed pedal by two engineers from Indiana,you think by now one of them would come forward? come out! come out! were ever you are to defend your pedal design.
Then as an engineering Tech. how is it you can only drive what you have? This Question is because you sound as though you knew your stuff. The times are tough but hope you are working.
No CHP officer would risk losing his job by lying.
HHAHAAHAHAH :surprise:
Come on now, you can't really be that Naïve!
CHP officer's perjure themselves all the time on the stand in court. Have you ever been to any traffic court sessions? It's a ridiculous circus of boiler-plate testimony for details that they don't have the slightest memory of; CHP officer's lie commonly and frequently. Its really their standing operating procedure to be dishonest for the purpose of "winning" a conviction; all the time.
They lie all the time in court over $200 speeding tickets, why would more serious cases be any different? I think the whole LAPD was shown to be dishonest and filled with conspiracies by the dream team of OJ's defense. OJ was deemed "not guilty" at least 50% in part because the prosecution was proved to be lying and concealing facts about certain officers' character and history.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The ignition switch is NOT firm ware. (Well it isn't on my car - not sure about the push button start models) And it is unclear whether ALL firmware electronics really are confused from the few reports we have - It is not clear that people even try these things . Look-first you hit the brakes - if no response - put it in neutral and turn on your flashers - if still accelerating - turn off the ignition and hope you have some place to pull over. The whole sequence will take you 3 seconds to cycle through. Your choice - its either this or dig out your cell phone, call 911 - explain your situation to someone who can do nothing to help - drive your car at ever increasing speed through unknown traffic conditions , and then crash full speed into an intersection and kill yourself - your passengers - and maybe lots of others around you. Some choice! There are not unlimited options if you own one of the cars. You either keep it or get rid of it. If you keep it maybe you can leave it in the garage until they figure it out - if ever - or you can learn how it operates to the best of your ability and realize that you have about the same chance of winning the powerball lottery as you do that your car will experience UA.
Joan Claybrook who was former head of NHTSA states she can understand Sikes reaction in an emergency.
I can't, and neither can most level headed average Americans, ESPECIALLY after all the hoopla with the stupid Saylor "I never tried to put it in neutral" deaths. I admit, that the 911 operator Saylor got was negligent, whereas at least Sikes' was competent in telling him to put it in neutral.
CHP has found no evidence of a hoax.
They are lazy, and since it doesn't benefit them, they have no intention on spending any man-hours to look at evidence of a hoax.
I think the fact that Sikes had a lease shows financial motive against Toyota to get out of the lease. I bet he's over on his allowed mileage too!.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
CTS did defend themselves at the time. Said there were very few incidents and pedal did not cause actual SUA/UA. Pedal just got sticky. No incidents of pedal stuck in WOT position. Pedal wasn't actually responsible to SUA/UA according to Toyota initially and other experts. Toyota did then present it differently to public, but you had to pay attention to precisely what words they used.
Glad you saved your coffee, Imadzol97! Back in the sixties when I was a tech in an electric motors lab, we found their tests and ratings to be very reliable. My boss was a professional engineer, and all the other graduate engineers and techs there all passed around and quoted CR for ratings on paints, sealants, cars, lawn mowers, etc. Was also used some of their test protocols for our testing of components that went into our products. Products we buy today are much better now than back in the sixties, but I still find them reliable as an initial guide. I don't buy anything based just on what they say, and sometimes I disagree with them, but in my opinion they are the best overall. They buy their own cars and question the subscribers with an annual questionnaire of their problems. Much more reliable than R&T and other magazines that get free cars to test. As far as JD Powers, they are also interesting, but I'm not so much personally interested in their initial quality ratings for a new car, which might say that brake dust is as bad as a failed motor, since I buy my cars used and keep them for a long time. I'm more interested in five to ten years out how their quality is. If it has pretty cosmetics with low quality and good looks, a poor car can look good its first year, but over ten years it really shows up. Would you rather have a ten year old car with 62 repairs per 100 cars or one that has 150 repairs per 100 cars per year? And for sure, just because a car is rated low by CR, doesn't mean don't buy it. They will usually depreciate lots more and be cheaper to buy and maybe that's more important to you. Trade in value, i.e., the free market is also many times a good indicator of a car's reliability, and it's hurting Toyo right now till they get this problem solved, but it was very good before this came up. I had trouble understanding your link, because to me the posting seemed to favor CR over JD Powers. It reads, "I know it`s a bit off topic but since the CR vs JD Power thread is inactive and since a lot of folks-salesmen and buyers both- trash CR and say it is inaccurate and its reports are biased or false and that JD power relatively is a better survey,here is a link which shows the absurdity ,crappy nature of the JD Power. Brake dust is equivalent to engine failure on their survey and their chief acknowledges this brazenly Go Figure !! No wonder brands like LandRover try to trumpet this stupid rating system and claim their vehicles are more reliable. And it also shows how Hyundai is really catching up to Honda/Toyota which as a buyer is a good thing for me." I'll tell you for sure, salesmen for the bad brands absolutely hate CR because it kills a lot of sales for them. I know, because my wife used to work for a dealer and we have lots of salesmen and mechanic friends, and most of the mechanics tell me the Toyos and Hondas are among the best, even though lots of them drive Jeeps and pickups. Bottom line here: No need to panic if you're driving a Toyo. Extremely unlikely to have a problem. Pratice putting it in neutral, turning ignition off (3 seconds of constant pushing required for keyless ignitions), putting on parking brake. Don't pump the brake if engine turns off because it will quit working. I've had several friends buy new cars that had more problems than their old ones. FWIW.
Hi, PMO. I don't understand, "how is it that you can only drive what you have?" Maybe I made a typo or said something wrong in my post. I don't really know that much about cars, used to fix my own in high school, but have read a lot about the Toyo problem, since I have one and didn't believe the floor mat crap Toyo put out. I know my older Ford Tauruses have all had to have the pan gasket replaced between 60k to 90k miles. Costs money because they have to remove the catylatic converter to get the pan off. They have also had bad heater coils that leak, and you have to remove the dash to replace them, so I've figured out how to use stop leak to fix that. I've also figured out that rebuilt alternators and starters are not worth it, for sometimes $20 more you can get brand new which lasts three times as long. My 2003 Taurus was a darn good buy and isn't that bad of a car. So far my Toyo Avalon since new has only had one repair, cracked plastic around the GPS, before 50k miles, then front brakes and one new tire, and it needs a new power window switch that I haven't fixed yet. But it's twice as good as any other car I've had. Drives like a new car, goes down the highway silently inside, has 10 or more speakers in the stereo. I was a tech in the lab while working my way through college, and that's where I found out about CR and started reading it. Yes, I'm working as much as I want, am now partially retired, and all my bills and my cars are paid for except for the credit card for the cruise we just got back from. I'm in a different field than engineering now. Hope you are doing well too.
As a nurse who studied and taught CPR and was on code blue team for years - this happens more than most people are aware. And sometimes even though well trained, the high stress level experienced in an emergency causes an individual to do things they would not normally do,etc. We are just human and we can make mistakes.
Saw your post requesting actual deaths. Here is a news report 56 deaths alleged to SUA/UA - w names, some reported did not supply names. NHTSA updated their stats after the article, and now recognize 52 deaths. Reports out there do vary, but since NHTSA recognized this report am passing along. Seems like 4 have been excluded - so assume decision cause is something else. Hope this helps.
Djohnson1, you'll find that the ANTI-CR posters on Edmunds tend to also be PRO-GM and PRO-Chrysler.
You'll also find they are somewhat delusional in thinking that the quality of their vehicles had nothing to do with their recent failures, bankruptcies, and bailouts.
It was all in CR's "head" and imagined, nothing real there.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
you'll find that the ANTI-CR posters on Edmunds tend to also be PRO-GM and PRO-Chrysler.
You'll also find they are somewhat delusional in thinking that the quality of their vehicles had nothing to do with their recent failures, bankruptcies, and bailouts
well that is no big shocker! was is surprising and the people who still think CR is bias and poor in their reviews and ratings is that since 2008 when Ford, GM, and Chrysler began their turn around, more and more of their vehicles have been added the recommended list year after year; I just went out and bought my yearly review and ratings CR mag and I would have to double check, but I think almost the entire Ford line is recommended now, with several models getting better and much better then avg reliability ratings! in fact, the Fusion is much above avg and had an almost perfect ranking across the board; GM has improved with several models being on the recommended list and a couple models being above avg reliability so I don't know where the bias is?
anyway, Nissan is a Japanese company and they actually lowered in brand reliability because of the continued avg reliability and problems with their pick-up trucks and SUVs, namely the Armada and Titan! Nissan is good at making sports cars, sedans, and crossovers, but if you look at the reliability history charts, their pickups and SUVs have much to be desired!
Yes, we do need to take legal responsibility for our own mistakes and what we personally may cause because of our own mistakes. And the same applies to corporations. If a design made by corporation is causing the incident, making the person make the mistake, then it would be the corporation that would have to assume legal responsibilty. Taking responsibility goes both ways. Legally this is just the way the US legal system works.
PWS. I would be the last to knock an engineer, if they don't deserve criticism and are did not cause fault. My son owns his own corporation and does auto development/engineering so do understand some of the business aspects.
So there is 56 ALLEGED deaths due to SUA in Toyota's.
How many for the other manufacturers?
More importantly, how many deaths per vehicle sold/driven? In total, period. I think that is a good indication of safety across the board, looking at the total number of deaths in a certain manufacturer's vehicles, regardless of the cause. Of course, you have to account for the fact that Toyota has outsold GM lately.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
Exactly what details in his "body language" tell you that to be the case?
And if you're an expert on body language, how about analyzing the body langage of the toyota reps at the congressional hearing and of Lentz and of other toyota shills in interviews in their fraudulant explanations and misexplanations?
I read that they are covering up and misrepresenting. I read that they hold the US market in contempt.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It is not Toyota that needs to be protected from corporate espionage. It is other companies patents that Toyota loves to steal. It has been corporate policy for as long as I can remember. My first example was my 1964 Land Cruiser bought new. Toyota used a part for part copy of a Chevy 6 cylinder engine. Only they used cheaper parts and the engine was a disaster. Fast forward to the Prius in question. Toyota stole ideas from several companies and are paying royalties as a result of being sued.
If you worry about Toyota being taken advantage of you need to re-evaluate your value system. That goes for anyone that feels Toyota is being treated unfairly by Congress, NHTSA or the media. It is the consumer that Toyota has used as guinea pigs to test their hybrids and their DBW systems. And so far it is the consumer that is losing, many with their lives.
No. Never. Say it's not true. toyota/lexus wouldn't do anything like that!!!
>Toyota stole ideas from several companies and are paying royalties as a result of being sued.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
---I am one however that thinks the latest "event" in SD has red flags all over it. Is it just coincidence this only occurred 5 miles from the Saylor tragedy? I'm not dismissing it but I'm waiting for the engineers to say something after examining the car.
---In fact I'm waiting for the engineers to say anything. I'm tired of the politics and media hype(like Brian Ross doctored video).
I read Claybrook's testimony(thanks Sharon for the post). I haven't seen any reaction from it. I thought she was very forthright and expected something from the "lapdogs".
finally, unless I missed it, where are the all reports and outrage from the rest of the world- Europe, Asia etc. about UA? Did Toyota just send them all to the USA and California specifically?
I think it is World Wide. We just happen to be Toyota's largest market. I think most cases on UA are only reported to the dealers. And the owner is sent on his way thinking it will not happen again. And most times it does not. That is what makes it hard for Toyota to find. If they are really looking hard???
PS
California is the largest Prius market.
Thanks, Don
I was left with impression article report US is best, but still has many problems. US owners are much more proactive, have more organized active safety agencies representing owner/publics safety interests, etc.
Please know this article could not be verified. l have not seen alot of news report information about other countries and their safety agencies.
CTS was blamed was blamed by Toyota for having slight defect, for the aceleration, but pedal really did not cause most of SUA/UA complaints it per testimony during the congressional hearings. There seemed to only be 2+ complaints lodged on NHTSA data base about pedal sticking a little. Differences of expert opinions do exist that fix will eliminate SUA/UA.
Toyota USA Newsroom has all press releases regarding the recalls, instructions and which vehicles included.
SO....PEEEEZE, just find the darn thing already, and whomever that "honor" goes to.....they can the use (well make all the crazy cell phone users (While driving at least)! :sick:
Ehhhh, :shades: Might as well use the same law to stop them from crunching on the french friesssss
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Why isn't that a surprise to me.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It is just about the best vehicle I have ever owned. It is the third Toyota I have owned that has never had one defect or issue I needed to repair in the last 10 years. Just sayin for the record for all the bashers here.
HOw far does the brake pedal need to be depressed for the throttle to be set idle? How long does this disabling of the throttle last? I'm sure it doesn't stay off forever.
Let's be real here.
Those pedals were supposedly MADE BY DENSO (Japanese) AND NOT CTS (Indiana/Canada plant SO FAR it is only the CTS pedal assembly ...I think the jury is out on the Denso assembly thoughl
From what I have been told SO FAR!!!!
Denso vs CTS link!
http://www.carzbuzz.com/story/ttacs-complete-guide-to-toyotas-gas-pedals-teardow- - - n-pictures-toyotas-fix-analysis-commentary
Surely I hope your just exaggerating.
I see Semi trucks with dual fully loaded trailers driving 65 to 70MPH on the freeway regularly and safely all the time. Surely a Prius could out handle and out brake those behemoths. I find it hard to believe a Prius is unsafe at anything below 70 MPH.
Please supply any crash/fatality/injury statistics that would support your statement please!!!!
Are there any figures out there that would show owning or driving a Toyota puts you at increased risk of injury or fatality per mile driven?
I seriously doubt this when you have tin can Kia's on the road.
Only far enough to "trip" the brake light microswitch and as long as it remains tripped, if designed correctly.
And remember putting the ICE at Idle is not the "target", putting the entire drive system in regenerative braking mode IS. The ICE itself may well remain well above idle.
As a Toyota owner - here is what I have done.
A - I had the recalls performed.
B - I have familiarized myself with the operation of the car and determined that in less than 3 seconds, I can hit the brakes, put the car in neutral, turn on my emergency flashers, and turn the ignition off. I have also determined (by actually doing it in an empty parking lot) that I can still steer the car and that I still have plenty of braking power. I find it very suspicious that people would be willing to run their car at 95 MPH through a busy intersection before trying any and all of these things. I find it hard to believe that someone would grab their cell phone and dial 911 before trying any and all of these things. I conclude that something smells rotten here. I also conclude that these are exceptionally rare events with 3.8 million recalled vehicles on the road and that the chances of me experiencing it are very rare. I have also concluded that if there really is a problem here, it is damn hard to reproduce it. I have concluded that we must, as rational beings accept the fact that some percentage of the reports are people who hit the wrong pedal, are attention seekers, or possibly even suicidal. I conclude that I am probably being hurt more by the accelerated depreciation of my new car than I am by any defect in the car. I conclude that lots of people just like to [non-permissible content removed] and moan.
http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/ToyotaSUA020510FINAL.pdf
Yes, you can do all of that, but most of it only provided the firmware is "listening".
LOL!!! You are hilarious man!
Even if we take you at surface value. Nothing you wrote or said would be something that could be missed during a simple test drive. Don't like it or got confused, then don't buy it. I don't believe anyone has accused Audi of putting a gun to someone's head to buy an Audi 5000. Therefore, it's the customer's fault, driver error 100%.
The design was apparent to anyone that isn't blind or in a coma. If you found the design to be a poor one, then buying it anyway doesn't make sense.
That would be very different to someone that's clearly bought multiple houses with no intention of paying them off, run up over $60K in CREDIT CARD DEBT, and is a real estate agent.
Heck, where on the totem pole do you put those agents, right above banker and insurance agent? Where does car salesman fit?
I'd be willing to bet the farm this guy never had impeccable credit.
On page 22 they have a used car reliability chart based on repairs made by thousands of their subscribers annually. Toyota is clearly ahead of all the other manufacturers from years two through ten of vehicles' lifetimes. For the first two years they are all fairly similar, but by year ten, Toyos average about 62 problems per 100 vehicles, while Volkswagen and Hyundai are up around 150 problems per 100 cars. But Hyundai are improving rapidly, and their cars 10 years ago were much lower quality than today, so they should be improving rapidly in this chart over the years.
That said, they have been shameful in recent years with these problems and customer service. Thanks to all you folks for piling on, because that will only make them better in upcoming years. And I'm not a Toyo nut, because I have two older Ford Tauruses and a Mustang convertable that I like. My Avalon is way better than the Fords, and many Fords have been recalled in past years for electrical fires, exploding gas tanks, etc., but I'm very happy Ford is doing so well now. Consumer Reports currently does not recommend any Toyo products now due to the current problems, but they have never had one of their test cars do it, nor has my Avalon. If it does, I'll be screaming, of course.
And was that a picture of a race car of his I saw or his Prius decked out like one? So the guy drives a race car and is afraid to put the car in neutral???
I practice that every day in my Avalon, also practice pushing the parking brake so I have the position memorized. If it's an electronic circuit problem that only occurs once per 100,000 cars, and each car has to be driven 20,000 miles before it happens, they may never find the cause. Every mile your car drives there are hundreds, if not thousands, of voltage changes in the ECM. JMHO.
Your instinctive reactions, INITIAL reactions, in a panic situation will not always be the most logical one.
Almost spit out my coffee when I read that statement.
CR's alleged survey is sort of like having cute little Brownies in the entrance way to Kroger's on Saturday morning taking opinions as people come in to do their shopping. A convencience survey: not a random survey.
CR's opinions in their writeups have more sway than any information they get from their strangely biased demographics of subscribers.Remember when Nader was there.
JD Powers is a true random survey.
Here's a link to one of Edmund's CR and JDPowers discussions for further info.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f106481/673
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Saw interesting table labeled "potential deaths from SUA" One could read a lot into that mistakenly I think.
HHAHAAHAHAH :surprise:
Come on now, you can't really be that Naïve!
CHP officer's perjure themselves all the time on the stand in court. Have you ever been to any traffic court sessions? It's a ridiculous circus of boiler-plate testimony for details that they don't have the slightest memory of; CHP officer's lie commonly and frequently. Its really their standing operating procedure to be dishonest for the purpose of "winning" a conviction; all the time.
They lie all the time in court over $200 speeding tickets, why would more serious cases be any different? I think the whole LAPD was shown to be dishonest and filled with conspiracies by the dream team of OJ's defense. OJ was deemed "not guilty" at least 50% in part because the prosecution was proved to be lying and concealing facts about certain officers' character and history.
I can't, and neither can most level headed average Americans, ESPECIALLY after all the hoopla with the stupid Saylor "I never tried to put it in neutral" deaths. I admit, that the 911 operator Saylor got was negligent, whereas at least Sikes' was competent in telling him to put it in neutral.
CHP has found no evidence of a hoax.
They are lazy, and since it doesn't benefit them, they have no intention on spending any man-hours to look at evidence of a hoax.
I think the fact that Sikes had a lease shows financial motive against Toyota to get out of the lease. I bet he's over on his allowed mileage too!.
Have that news article bookmarked..
I don't buy anything based just on what they say, and sometimes I disagree with them, but in my opinion they are the best overall. They buy their own cars and question the subscribers with an annual questionnaire of their problems. Much more reliable than R&T and other magazines that get free cars to test.
As far as JD Powers, they are also interesting, but I'm not so much personally interested in their initial quality ratings for a new car, which might say that brake dust is as bad as a failed motor, since I buy my cars used and keep them for a long time. I'm more interested in five to ten years out how their quality is. If it has pretty cosmetics with low quality and good looks, a poor car can look good its first year, but over ten years it really shows up. Would you rather have a ten year old car with 62 repairs per 100 cars or one that has 150 repairs per 100 cars per year?
And for sure, just because a car is rated low by CR, doesn't mean don't buy it. They will usually depreciate lots more and be cheaper to buy and maybe that's more important to you.
Trade in value, i.e., the free market is also many times a good indicator of a car's reliability, and it's hurting Toyo right now till they get this problem solved, but it was very good before this came up.
I had trouble understanding your link, because to me the posting seemed to favor CR over JD Powers. It reads, "I know it`s a bit off topic but since the CR vs JD Power thread is inactive and since a lot of folks-salesmen and buyers both- trash CR and say it is inaccurate and its reports are biased or false and that JD power relatively is a better survey,here is a link which shows the absurdity ,crappy nature of the JD Power.
Brake dust is equivalent to engine failure on their survey and their chief acknowledges this brazenly Go Figure !! No wonder brands like LandRover try to trumpet this stupid rating system and claim their vehicles are more reliable. And it also shows how Hyundai is really catching up to Honda/Toyota which as a buyer is a good thing for me."
I'll tell you for sure, salesmen for the bad brands absolutely hate CR because it kills a lot of sales for them. I know, because my wife used to work for a dealer and we have lots of salesmen and mechanic friends, and most of the mechanics tell me the Toyos and Hondas are among the best, even though lots of them drive Jeeps and pickups.
Bottom line here: No need to panic if you're driving a Toyo. Extremely unlikely to have a problem. Pratice putting it in neutral, turning ignition off (3 seconds of constant pushing required for keyless ignitions), putting on parking brake. Don't pump the brake if engine turns off because it will quit working. I've had several friends buy new cars that had more problems than their old ones. FWIW.
So far my Toyo Avalon since new has only had one repair, cracked plastic around the GPS, before 50k miles, then front brakes and one new tire, and it needs a new power window switch that I haven't fixed yet. But it's twice as good as any other car I've had. Drives like a new car, goes down the highway silently inside, has 10 or more speakers in the stereo.
I was a tech in the lab while working my way through college, and that's where I found out about CR and started reading it.
Yes, I'm working as much as I want, am now partially retired, and all my bills and my cars are paid for except for the credit card for the cruise we just got back from. I'm in a different field than engineering now.
Hope you are doing well too.
I concur.
I would also add that people just like to whine, and it seems no one can take personal responsibility for their own mistakes.
Agreed, but we as Americans need to learn to OWN UP to our mistakes and claim them. Personal responsibility for ones own mistakes please!!!
We can't always blame the designers and engineers for what was already very apparent, and reasonably predictable.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fiw-toyota-deaths-list28-2010feb28,0,98986.st- ory
You'll also find they are somewhat delusional in thinking that the quality of their vehicles had nothing to do with their recent failures, bankruptcies, and bailouts.
It was all in CR's "head" and imagined, nothing real there.
You'll also find they are somewhat delusional in thinking that the quality of their vehicles had nothing to do with their recent failures, bankruptcies, and bailouts
well that is no big shocker! was is surprising and the people who still think CR is bias and poor in their reviews and ratings is that since 2008 when Ford, GM, and Chrysler began their turn around, more and more of their vehicles have been added the recommended list year after year; I just went out and bought my yearly review and ratings CR mag and I would have to double check, but I think almost the entire Ford line is recommended now, with several models getting better and much better then avg reliability ratings! in fact, the Fusion is much above avg and had an almost perfect ranking across the board; GM has improved with several models being on the recommended list and a couple models being above avg reliability so I don't know where the bias is?
anyway, Nissan is a Japanese company and they actually lowered in brand reliability because of the continued avg reliability and problems with their pick-up trucks and SUVs, namely the Armada and Titan! Nissan is good at making sports cars, sedans, and crossovers, but if you look at the reliability history charts, their pickups and SUVs have much to be desired!
PWS. I would be the last to knock an engineer, if they don't deserve criticism and are did not cause fault. My son owns his own corporation and does auto development/engineering so do understand some of the business aspects.
So there is 56 ALLEGED deaths due to SUA in Toyota's.
How many for the other manufacturers?
More importantly, how many deaths per vehicle sold/driven? In total, period. I think that is a good indication of safety across the board, looking at the total number of deaths in a certain manufacturer's vehicles, regardless of the cause. Of course, you have to account for the fact that Toyota has outsold GM lately.