3 or 4 widely publicized? Maybe 100 if we dug deep? Maybe 1000 if we assume that 90% are never reported/suspected/known? This would amount to .00000026 % of the recalled cars. Is this a media frenzy? Is the amount of press and hysteria justified given such low numbers? Pretty expensive
Is the amount of press and hysteria justified given such low numbers?
Well if you make a drug and 1 or 5 or 100 bottles made of millions are tainted, yes we require them all to be recalled. When a product malfunction can cause serious injury or death, you need to make ALL the fixes. Since Toyota really doesn't know the cause, and therefore can't deny that the problem won't grow, then yes the issue needs to be treated as if the reports now are just the tip-of-the-iceberg.
Pretty expensive
Many consumers gave Toyota $20K, or $30K, or $40 PERFECT $'s and they should have received a vehicle of near PERFECT quality; certainly not 1 with a major, major operating flaw!
The Toyota damage control people have already tried to smear the guys credibility by spreading his financial condition to all the media.
Is it really Toyota's fault that the "one guy" claiming UA recently has a financial record that is "smearable?"
Toyota is not the dishonest, corrupt, and [non-permissible content removed] this lunatic clearly is. Insurance companies and employers look at credit records and ratings for a reason. They show a person's character.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
was 1 to 5 out of 100 which is at best 38,461 times worse a percentage than is .00000026. So it seems fair to ask whether 3 or 4 widely publiziced cases justifies the level of media hysteria. It seems to me that most of the 3.8 million owners of recalled vehicles are not experiencing any problems at all, and that would include me as an owner of a 2010 Camry. So from my perspective it is nearly perfect and has no demonstrable flaws. I suspect the same is true for the remainder of that 3.8 million - their cars have no operating flaw whatsoever. The statistical odds of any one person experiencing a problem remain very remote. Of those publicized, it is not clear what is going on at all. This is a huge windfall for other manufacturers and could well be an expense to Toyota far out of proportion to the actual problems - the extent of which remains simultaneously unclear and infrequent given the number of cars they have on the road.
kernick...said it before....even one death is unacceptable. OF course, Toyota has more than that on their hands caused by their UA. No one should put up with this "ahh, it's just a few deaths (last I heard it was 50+), it's just a few UA incidents that didn't cause a death, but could have resulted in a massive accident".
This has to be taken care of and fixed by Toyota to keep any of this from happening again....the deaths, the accidents, and UA. Toyota needs to take responsibilit to save more lives, not launch a smear campaign to save the money.
We can't do anything about those who've tragically already lost theirs. They're already gone. We can prevent any more deaths, however.
Sorry, that's not even an honest attempt to replicate the conditions of Monday's incident.
Our natural instinct, FIRST instinct, would have been to step on the brake pedal in the case of UA.
She should have simulated a fully depressed, stuck throttle, and then used the brakes to see if they overrode the gas pedal. Then if the car still accelerated the next step would have been to try to shift into neutral.
and the trend has been finally falling since 2005 when it was around 45000 deaths. The automotive industry is largley responsible for this drop in deaths due to (albeit forced) adoption of passive restraint systems. Mostly these people just die in the background noise of living in America and very few question why. Obviously one death is very acceptable, as are thousands, every year. I think the Toyota issue needs to be investigated but I think it is turning into a witchhunt.
Toyota is like a person going before a firing squad and handing all the men ammunition to kill him. Toyota has brought all this on themselves with cover up after cover up. Lies and half truths. Forcing the NHTSA to go to Japan to get the ball rolling on the recalls that should have been done at least 2 years ago.
PS They did the same thing in Japan and ended up in a criminal trial over their not recalling faulty suspension.
For example, the brake override feature does not operate if the brake pedal is depressed before the accelerator pedal. This logic allows for vehicles starting on a steep a hill to safely accelerate without rolling backwards, otherwise known as a hill start.
I can tell you from first hand experience this statement is at least misleading and at worst wrong. I was at the wheel of an '08 Prius, stopped, with the engine running and the brake depressed. Stepping on the gas, even all the way to the floor, the engine did not rev, and there was not the slightest attempt by the car to pull forward. When letting go of the brake with the gas depressed slightly, it did more of a launch than normal. wwest is correct, it is impossible for the California Prius event to be a hoax.
I fail to see any important difference between "being designed in", and being "based on the design of brake operation, you get an override by default". It is effectively brake override whether that was the functional objective or not. Consider the case when the car is sitting still. Logically, regenerative braking cannot be performed, but the gas pedal is still ineffective. I have experienced that first hand on a test drive. At all times, the throttle is overridden by application of the brake.
My post was the first that I am aware of that suggested that the California incident was proof that problem is in the electronics no matter how much Toyota wants to stonewall it. In that incident, we have eyewitness testimony that the brakes were being applied with little effect. You say you agree with that, so why make it sound like you refute it over some esoteric perspective, when so many others seem to be having trouble accepting the important conclusion?
Here are the testimonies given to Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade, and Consumer Protection Hearing today March 11. Links provided below. You can access and verify at their website. All are there.
Joan Claybrook testimony should be read first. Then the pointed items she critiqued - compare them to the related areas of testimony from Stickland and the attorney from Auto industry group. See if addressed or included. Ex. the area where NHTSA had decided to keep information secretive despite TREAD Act that required open and transparent information regarding defects, complaints, etc. to be open for public access to information. This allows for public to act and protect themselves. Seems auto manufacturers did not want information released by reports I have read. Something happened as that was not the intent of TREAD Act. .
CR attorney seemed less knowledgeable about the issues.
Auto manufacturers attorney had good presentation with included graphs done. Some of the graphs are/appear questionable to me. Does deliver positive reinforcement strategies. Does leave out certain important items purposely that are detrimental to auto manufacturers. Compare to Joan Claybrook made points.
It is easy to cause brake fade and overheating if you keep reapplying the brakes over and over with pressure at speed, or numerous times.
The driver probably did a few 60 to 0 runs until his brakes started to fade, overheat, and become ineffective, then drove on the freeway wasting his brakes on purpose, then called the CHP over.
There is no proof of anything other than a complete and utter hoax.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The driver probably did a few 60 to 0 runs until his brakes started to fade, overheat, and become ineffective
You do have a wild imagination. Too bad most of it is so easy to shoot holes through.
The investigation:
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration investigators started probing the cause of the incident yesterday, but stopped abruptly when a congressional aide demanded to get in on the act, the Los Angeles Times reports. The aide had come to witness the inspection, expected to take several days. The resulting delay took hours to resolve:
The team stopped work as soon as the unnamed aide from the office of Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., showed up, but NHTSA later relented. Now the aide gets to watch. Other reports say the California Highway Patrol is taking part in the probe, too.
And, of course, Toyota said Tuesday Monday it is dispatching a lone field representative, not an army of engineers , to do its own tests on the car. It is the latest example of Toyota's aloof reaction to what sounds like the case that could become the smoking gun of unintended acceleration. Toyota might as well underplay it.
Monica Khoury of Point Loma doesn’t believe Toyota’s reassurances. Khoury said she traded in her 2007 Prius after the car accelerated out of control twice last summer. Khoury said she loved her sleek black machine until its gas pedal became stuck when she sped up to pass cars on Sea World Drive.
“I was scared to death,” Khoury said last night.
She took the floor mat out after the first incident, only to experience the trouble again.
Khoury said she took the car to a local Toyota dealer for an inspection.
“They said, ‘We checked the internal computer and the internal computer doesn’t indicate that this happened either time,’ ” she said.
Managers at the dealership couldn’t be reached after hours.
For several months, Khoury said, she feared losing control of her Prius whenever she stepped on the accelerator. So she got a different vehicle at the end of February.
“I finally decided that I would rather have us take on another car payment than die in a fiery crash,” Khoury said.
Don't forget the IS350 in San Diego last Friday.
Also last night, the office of Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Vista, said the congressman had written to the federal highway agency to highlight another local case of sudden acceleration involving a Toyota brand. On Friday, a 2006 Lexus IS 350 owned by an employee of a San Diego dealership failed to slow down until the driver shifted the car into neutral, said Issa spokesman Kurt Bardella.
Based on a visual inspection, the driver doesn’t think the cause was pedal entrapment, Bardella said. The sedan has been impounded until next week, when Lexus is scheduled to inspect the vehicle.
Seems Representative Issa R from California who is on Senate committee investigating was barred from witnessing Toyota and NHTSA engineers inspecting this Prius initially. Saw one report NHTSA engineers were threatening to just walk out. But finally after speaking with LaHood NHTSA Secretary representative was allowed to be present in afternoon.
Obviously one death is very acceptable, as are thousands, every year.
So if someone commits a murder or a homocide you might just say to your police, don't put too much bother into searching for the killer, there are many thousands of other murders each year?
Or if someone you know gets sick from contaminated meat or peanut butter, you just say "oh well, hundreds of thousands die from infections each year".
You need to reconsider that there is a difference between a consumer doing something stupid or something natural befalls them; AND when a company puts a faulty product out that kills a consumer thru poor quality - not the fault of the consumer or an Act of God.
If I was in charge - some of these losers @ companies like Enron, AIG, Lehman, and our Fed and Treasury leaders of the last decades, would think Attila the Hun was reincarnated.
Well said. nd this data system is only voluntary. What is in NHTSA system are only filed by owners who actually lodge complaint. Many are actually unaware they should file with DHTSA, and only report to dealership.
Dealership has most complaints. They are not required by law to be turned over to NHTSA , nor are there any surprise audits for compliance. Of course NHTSA asks manufacturers to submit voluntarily. No actual enforcement and proven substantiation of numbers ever done/takken.
The US data system is much better than other countries systems. But problems do exist. FACT -The actual number of complaints are still highly questionable.
This is a Prius. If you ever drove one, you would know that it is impossible to apply the brakes (as the CHP officer witnessed) and keep the car accelerating with your other foot even if you want to. The brake sets the engine to idle. Explain that.
I stated yesterday - the SUA/UA incident still is a valid incident since no further report findings released. CHP, NHTSA, Toyota have not made any public statements that incident was "just a hoax" CHP officer in interview said he witnessed incident, smelled burning of brakes, saw brake material on tires and ground. He also witnessed condition of driver after the incident.
There is NO doubt that Sikes experienced UA with his Prius. Praying to the Toyoda god will not change the facts. Toyota and the Prius in particular has some REAL electronic gremlins. Toyota has been successful at squashing them at the dealerships up until now. With every incident hitting every news agency in moments they can no longer hide behind their cloak of secrecy. Time for Toyota to admit they have created a complex monster they cannot keep up with.
I find myself having a difficult time understanding the secracy displayed here and other aspects as well.
And I also have difficulty understanding why NHTSA wanted to pay $40,000+ for Smith's auto that was repaired and sold by Smith's. That auto should have already been considered altered and considered to off limits for any study into electronics. Any study would be declared blatantly faulty before NHTSA even starts. Why didn't they obtain an unaltered/not repaired auto that was in well documented proven SUA/UA incident? Why? How?
These death statisitics were humans. Statistics are not just numbers. No corporation should be allowed to declare these deaths don't count. A Corporation displaying view/by their actions - a persons life doesn't count should not be tolerated.
"It’s amazing that NHTSA does not have authority to impose criminal penalties given that an individual negligent driver can be prosecuted for vehicular homicide for killing one person" Was in her testimony today. I provided the link in one of my earlier posts.
Why would a corporation not be held liable when we would??
and keep the car accelerating with your other foot even if you want to. The brake sets the engine to idle. Explain that.
I don't believe the officer has said he winessed the car accelerating, just that it wasn't stopping. He could of just been "skimming" the brake pedal very lightly and showing brake lights without actually having any real pressure on the brakes. Also, he could of alternately hit the brakes and gas.
The CHP admits as much as they say they don't know one way or another what happened and will leave that up to the investigators to determine.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Both NHTSA and Toyota were quite secretive at first it seems. I can ee why press barred, but why Issa representative?
Are you suggesting that there is collusion going on? Well, if you are, I agree as I can't see any other reason for the two agencies Toyota and NHTSA doing an investigation with transparency as has been suggested by so many.
"Bankrupt Runaway Prius Driver Owns Adult Swinger Site"
"His bankruptcy also shows the theft of a saxophone, clothes and other items from a car in April of last year for which his insurance paid $7,400. There's also an anonymous tip on the site Hobbub.com claiming items were mysterously lifted from his foreclosed home before the bank took control of the property:"
They say the entire kitchen was taken. Dang.
" but before giving posession back to the bank "someone" stole the ENTIRE kitchen out of the house .Granite countertops, cabinets, appliances and even the lights!"
If vehicle had an update computer software flash, that would not show. I assume NHTSA has no acess to Toyota proprietary information. Since NHTSA plans to do investigational inspection/study/report on this vehicle problems appear to exist. I see the biggest faulty(just a study analysis term) aspect is - vehicle was already repaired, and no one knows for sure what was done. Also the vehicle had been sold and was then has been owned by someone else since. Someone posted here on the blogs vehicle has had no further problems. I have not verified this though. Alot of "if's seem to exist, when if"s don't have to exist.
It appears the government is doing a possible investigaion on Toyota, and any good sound legal stance by NHTSA is lost also. Attorneys would be able to challenge any findings because of all the loopholes that exist.
So you think they might/could still find something anway?? Maybe I am too caught up on these other problems.
Now some folks on another forum have found the guy's car club pics on line. To quote part of one post...
"A guy who has likely had his ‘Vette over 140MPH for many many miles on trips to Nevada is scared of putting a Pirus, traveling at 80MPH, into Neutral “because it might flip”???
I was just into the financial section to see what market did today, and found this link among the headlines. There is good possibility no action will ever be taken against Toyota, if you look at past history of what happened to other manufacturers. I was not aware Los Angeles DA was investigating too.
NO NOT EXPENSIVE AT ALL!!!!! What is expensive is my $33,000.00 brand new. 4 week old 2010 Prius that is sitting at a local autobody shop with $6,000.00 worth of damage due to brake failure!!!THIS IS EXPENSIVE! Secondly, I was lucky I was not injured or possibly killed. There is no price for a life. So good for the media I hope they keep at it until Toyota accepts that they have put unsafe vehicles on the road. Some advice for you, if you see a new Prius on the road nearby, make sure you are behind it!
"A guy who has likely had his ‘Vette over 140MPH for many many miles on trips to Nevada is scared of putting a Pirus, traveling at 80MPH, into Neutral “because it might flip”???
A Prius is not safe at any speed over about 45 MPH. Poor handling, braking and wind bucking characteristics. A Corvette or Porsche at 140 MPH is safer than a Prius at 55 MPH. Only a nut case would drive a Prius over 55 MPH.
Thanks for your first hand experience. Don't let any of these Toyota cult members scare you off. Most of them love Toyota so much they drive other brands. You are right. Toyota in their exuberance to be number one have put unsafe cars on the road. And they don't know how to fix what they have created.
Welcome to the Forum and keep us posted on how it all turns out for you.
Looks like the Chinese market are also starting to turn away from toyota and embrace Nissan instead, and this is during Dec last year, before all these big recalls became headline. I expect toyota to drop back further and Nissan to accelerate even faster :
Nissan outpaces Toyota, Honda by sales in China Source: Gasgoo [14:44 January 19 2010]
Nissan Motor sold 756,000 vehicles under the brands of Nissan and Infiniti in the Chinese market in 2009, jumping 39 percent from a year earlier.
By last December, the company had ranked number one among Japanese carmakers in terms of sales in China, overtaking archrival Toyota Motor Corporation.
In the meantime, Toyota's sales rose 21 percent to 709,000 vehicles in China. That of Honda Motor Co., Ltd. hiked 22.5 percent to 576,000 vehicles. Besides sales, Toyota and Honda were both behind Nissan in terms of overall growth.
In the year, the overall performance of Japanese carmakers was behind their peers from the US, European, and South Korean. General Motors Corporation sold 1.8264 million vehicles, surging 66.9 percent, taking the first place among foreign carmakers in terms of sales.
Shanghai Volkswagen Automotive Co., Ltd. (SVW) and FAW-VW Automobile Co., Ltd. together obtained sales of 1.4 million vehicles, leaping 36.7 percent. Hyundai Kia Automotive Group sold 811,700 vehicles, outpacing Toyota.
Notably, foreign carmakers are divided into two groups in the Chinese market: Toyota, Volkswagen, and Honda have two joint ventures, while General Motors, Nissan, and Ford Motor Company (NYSE: F) each has only one partner. General Motors and Nissan were ahead of Toyota, Volkswagen, and Honda in terms of either sales or overall growth last year.
For example, Dongfeng Nissan Passenger Vehicle Company started operation in 2003, five years later than the ventures of Toyota and Honda. Its sales outlets are fewer than those of the latter. However, its performance is much better.
Because all of Nissan's car models are sold in the sales outlets of Dongfeng Nissan, customers have better acknowledgement of Nissan as a Japanese brand. Meanwhile, investors of Dongfeng Nissan's sales outlets get more stable sales and profits.
Instead of continuing to risk dying for toyota, why don't Americans just either buy American cars like Warren Buffett (who always like first class stuff like good companies), or just buy the Nissan LEAF ?
I find it interesting that American manufacturers have been involved in massive auto recall campaigns to the tune of almost 10:1 verses Toyota and only now does the mostly progressive democratic congress, get involved.
Remember who is leading the charge in during this occasion. These progressives are completely controlled by big labor unions. The unions have no control over companies such as Toyota because they tend to build their cars in right to work states. Don't think for a minute that this grandstanding concerning Toyota is anything less.
I'm sure the people that have problems with their drive by wire Toyotas are genuine for the most part. However when big labor unions want to bring down a Japanese company, they directly attack its most valuable prize, customer loyalty and assurance. After all the government invested a vast sum of money in GM and they need to sell cars to make back that money.
About the time the US government sunk tones of our US dollars into GM, they had to recall 1.5 million vehicles because they catch on fire. Did the congress call GM before its body at that time? Or how about the most recent recall of 1.3 million GM cars due to power steering failure? Has the congress shown even the slightest interest in hearing from GM? How about Chryslers recent recall of 25,000 pickup trucks due to brake failure? Or lets talk about the Sebring which was recalled in 2010 due to brake failure, or the 2009 Chrysler 300 recall because the vehicles were constructed without a front wheel spindle nut? Or the nearly 300k HHRs, 300k Acadia that have been recalled because the transmission shift cable does not actually shift the car into park, causing it to roll away unattended? Or the Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep Nitro, Liberty, Sebring, Grand Cherokee, Aventer series where the brakes fail without warning and the vehicle can not be stopped?
Why isn't congress interested in all these recalls? The risk to Americans lives is just as great if not greater. At least with the Toyota all one needs to is place the transmission in neutral, what if the brakes completely fail as in the case of the Chrysler? or the steering fails as in the case of the GM? You see its all about image and congress is using the TV set to bring down the image of Toyota, that is their end goal and its completely political.
Did the CEO of Chrysler apologize to the American public for the brake issues? Did the CEO of GM apologize to the American public for the steering and vast other recall failures which endangered life and limb. Hell no! These US government run companies never even considered it. and they never will! Toyota is not perfect, however the Japanese will put every effort into making things right with their customers. This will never be the case with a arrogant, government entity such as GM or Chrysler. Plan on suing GM? or Chrysler? wait and see what happens to you if you try. You will be subject to every evil type of government investigation which exists in their arsenal. If it were me, I would never purchase a GM or Chrysler until the US government is no longer an owner. I'll take my chances with a good hearted, privately owned, corporate CEO any day.
sharon...before all's said and done, with Congress investigating Toyota, NHTSA knee deep in investigating them, and the SEC investigating them, it's not out of the realm of possibility that the DOJ gets involved for obstruction of justice.
Maybe perjury would go into the mix?
We know that Toyota has suppressed internal evidence over safety issues. Employees have come forth stating that Toyota has been short on engineering and quality control, and long on upping production.
Let's not forget the Inaba slide show given showing the emphasis on skirting gov't safety regs to the tune of $100s of millions. It's definitely going to get worse before it gets better for them.
We'll see. I think when the NHTSA issues their findings, all the PR, all the damage control and smearing the public complaints in the world is going to help them. Toyota is going to be in a world of hurt......much worse than they are now.
First, your characterization of the ease of dealing with the Toyota problem is inaccurate. Please read some of the NHTSA accounts. Putting the car in neutral is a waste of time.
Second, you are leaving one factor out of your historical account that is still important to many Americans, and that is ethics. A lot of people just don't like being lied to. The recent California Prius incident provides proof that the problem is in the electronics if one understands how the brake and throttle are designed to interact. There is no doubt that Toyota knows the problem is in the electronics (even if they have not known it for the past three years), but they are still denying it.
Third, that 10:1 ratio you refer to may be due to the evidence that has recently been exposed of Toyota paying off people to squash investigations.
Fourth, 99% of the recalls that have occurred across all car makers including Toyota were due to a well understood problem with a straight-forward fix. Even though Toyota must know it is an electronics problem, I do believe that they have not figured out the cause. Rather than say so, they blame mats and pedals.
"Only a nut case would drive a Prius over 55 MPH."
Well, Mr. Sikes apparently did that too.
I will be out in the heavy rain today on I-64 and I-81. There are a lot of Priuses on the road every Friday (road trip to the nursing home), and often in the left lane, when I pass through Charlottesville and later approach Harrisonburg on I-81. C-ville has UVA and H-burg has JMU. There're a lot in Richmond too for that matter. They're everywhere, they're everywhere.
I like my new HL Limited. I like the slightly firmer ride of the HL over the '06 Avalon XLS I sold. And it's 8+ inches shorter.
Mechanical devices break sometimes and accidents happen. Be prepared.
When you are driving your car, you are probably engaging in one of the riskiest activities of our culture. As other posters have pointed out - all the car companies have had massive recalls for products that if they fail could result in death. I have never seen such a frenzy in the media nor have I ever seen politicians grandstanding to the extent we are seeing with Toyota. The fact is, if you take to the highway in any car, the risk of death and injury is pretty high. Lets say you have a .005% chance of such an event every time you get in a car. Show me please how this chance is statistically different for Toyota passengers than it is for passengers of other cars. Show your work and use the FARS database of motor vehicle fatalities. My gut feeling is that you can't show that ANY manufacturers cars are more likely than any others to be involved. Hysteria is feeding this witchhunt IMO.
Nice piece of fiction Gagrice. I admit being a bit nervous driving my 2007 Prius because of the acceleration stories,but at 65MPH it handles as well as my KIA Optima,which in turn handles better than any American car I have ever owned.I am not especially fond of Toyotas,and have only owned one before,an 80 Corolla wagon.I have at one time or another owned every American brand except for Caddy or Pontiac.The KIA is only my second Asian car and I love it.The prius has issues,no doubt, but handling is not one of them.I'll take my chances with the Prius at legal speed over the Vette at 140 any time. PS There are no braking problems with the 2nd generation Prius.
Comments
Well if you make a drug and 1 or 5 or 100 bottles made of millions are tainted, yes we require them all to be recalled. When a product malfunction can cause serious injury or death, you need to make ALL the fixes. Since Toyota really doesn't know the cause, and therefore can't deny that the problem won't grow, then yes the issue needs to be treated as if the reports now are just the tip-of-the-iceberg.
Pretty expensive
Many consumers gave Toyota $20K, or $30K, or $40 PERFECT $'s and they should have received a vehicle of near PERFECT quality; certainly not 1 with a major, major operating flaw!
Is it really Toyota's fault that the "one guy" claiming UA recently has a financial record that is "smearable?"
Toyota is not the dishonest, corrupt, and [non-permissible content removed] this lunatic clearly is. Insurance companies and employers look at credit records and ratings for a reason. They show a person's character.
Maybe he wore out his brakes before even starting this hoax?
Maybe he overheated his brakes before the CHP officer got there thereby rendering them less effective?
This has to be taken care of and fixed by Toyota to keep any of this from happening again....the deaths, the accidents, and UA. Toyota needs to take responsibilit to save more lives, not launch a smear campaign to save the money.
We can't do anything about those who've tragically already lost theirs. They're already gone. We can prevent any more deaths, however.
That was/is pretty sloppy coding IMMHO.
But I trust that the fat lady will sing...eventually.
Our natural instinct, FIRST instinct, would have been to step on the brake pedal in the case of UA.
She should have simulated a fully depressed, stuck throttle, and then used the brakes to see if they overrode the gas pedal. Then if the car still accelerated the next step would have been to try to shift into neutral.
PS
They did the same thing in Japan and ended up in a criminal trial over their not recalling faulty suspension.
I can tell you from first hand experience this statement is at least misleading and at worst wrong. I was at the wheel of an '08 Prius, stopped, with the engine running and the brake depressed. Stepping on the gas, even all the way to the floor, the engine did not rev, and there was not the slightest attempt by the car to pull forward. When letting go of the brake with the gas depressed slightly, it did more of a launch than normal. wwest is correct, it is impossible for the California Prius event to be a hoax.
My post was the first that I am aware of that suggested that the California incident was proof that problem is in the electronics no matter how much Toyota wants to stonewall it. In that incident, we have eyewitness testimony that the brakes were being applied with little effect. You say you agree with that, so why make it sound like you refute it over some esoteric perspective, when so many others seem to be having trouble accepting the important conclusion?
Joan Claybrook testimony should be read first. Then the pointed items she critiqued - compare them to the related areas of testimony from Stickland and the attorney from Auto industry group. See if addressed or included. Ex. the area where NHTSA had decided to keep information secretive despite TREAD Act that required open and transparent information regarding defects, complaints, etc. to be open for public access to information. This allows for public to act and protect themselves. Seems auto manufacturers did not want information released by reports I have read. Something happened as that was not the intent of TREAD Act. .
CR attorney seemed less knowledgeable about the issues.
Auto manufacturers attorney had good presentation with included graphs done. Some of the graphs are/appear questionable to me. Does deliver positive reinforcement strategies. Does leave out certain important items purposely that are detrimental to auto manufacturers. Compare to Joan Claybrook made points.
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100311/Rush.Statement.2010.03.11.pdf-
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100309/Briefing.Memo.2010.3.9.pdf
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100311/Strickland.Testimony.pdf
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100311/Claybrook.Testimony.pdf
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100311/Gadhia.Testimony.pdf
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20100311/McCurdy.Testimony.pdf
The driver probably did a few 60 to 0 runs until his brakes started to fade, overheat, and become ineffective, then drove on the freeway wasting his brakes on purpose, then called the CHP over.
There is no proof of anything other than a complete and utter hoax.
You do have a wild imagination. Too bad most of it is so easy to shoot holes through.
The investigation:
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration investigators started probing the cause of the incident yesterday, but stopped abruptly when a congressional aide demanded to get in on the act, the Los Angeles Times reports. The aide had come to witness the inspection, expected to take several days. The resulting delay took hours to resolve:
The team stopped work as soon as the unnamed aide from the office of Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., showed up, but NHTSA later relented. Now the aide gets to watch. Other reports say the California Highway Patrol is taking part in the probe, too.
And, of course, Toyota said Tuesday Monday it is dispatching a lone field representative, not an army of engineers , to do its own tests on the car. It is the latest example of Toyota's aloof reaction to what sounds like the case that could become the smoking gun of unintended acceleration. Toyota might as well underplay it.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/03/standoff-ensues-in-- runaway-toyota-prius-probe-when-political-aide-shows-up/1
Monica Khoury of Point Loma doesn’t believe Toyota’s reassurances. Khoury said she traded in her 2007 Prius after the car accelerated out of control twice last summer. Khoury said she loved her sleek black machine until its gas pedal became stuck when she sped up to pass cars on Sea World Drive.
“I was scared to death,” Khoury said last night.
She took the floor mat out after the first incident, only to experience the trouble again.
Khoury said she took the car to a local Toyota dealer for an inspection.
“They said, ‘We checked the internal computer and the internal computer doesn’t indicate that this happened either time,’ ” she said.
Managers at the dealership couldn’t be reached after hours.
For several months, Khoury said, she feared losing control of her Prius whenever she stepped on the accelerator. So she got a different vehicle at the end of February.
“I finally decided that I would rather have us take on another car payment than die in a fiery crash,” Khoury said.
Don't forget the IS350 in San Diego last Friday.
Also last night, the office of Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Vista, said the congressman had written to the federal highway agency to highlight another local case of sudden acceleration involving a Toyota brand. On Friday, a 2006 Lexus IS 350 owned by an employee of a San Diego dealership failed to slow down until the driver shifted the car into neutral, said Issa spokesman Kurt Bardella.
Based on a visual inspection, the driver doesn’t think the cause was pedal entrapment, Bardella said. The sedan has been impounded until next week, when Lexus is scheduled to inspect the vehicle.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/10/runaway-prius-means-more-bad-news- -for-toyota/
http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-federal-inspectors,0,6434156.story
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/mar/10/issa-butts-heads-with-nhtsa-over-- prius-probe/
Both NHTSA and Toyota were quite secretive at first it seems. I can ee why press barred, but why Issa representative?
So if someone commits a murder or a homocide you might just say to your police, don't put too much bother into searching for the killer, there are many thousands of other murders each year?
Or if someone you know gets sick from contaminated meat or peanut butter, you just say "oh well, hundreds of thousands die from infections each year".
You need to reconsider that there is a difference between a consumer doing something stupid or something natural befalls them; AND when a company puts a faulty product out that kills a consumer thru poor quality - not the fault of the consumer or an Act of God.
If I was in charge - some of these losers @ companies like Enron, AIG, Lehman, and our Fed and Treasury leaders of the last decades, would think Attila the Hun was reincarnated.
At least FEMA isn't helping out!
Dealership has most complaints. They are not required by law to be turned over to NHTSA , nor are there any surprise audits for compliance. Of course NHTSA asks manufacturers to submit voluntarily. No actual enforcement and proven substantiation of numbers ever done/takken.
The US data system is much better than other countries systems. But problems do exist. FACT -The actual number of complaints are still highly questionable.
And I also have difficulty understanding why NHTSA wanted to pay $40,000+ for Smith's auto that was repaired and sold by Smith's. That auto should have already been considered altered and considered to off limits for any study into electronics. Any study would be declared blatantly faulty before NHTSA even starts. Why didn't they obtain an unaltered/not repaired auto that was in well documented proven SUA/UA incident? Why? How?
Why would a corporation not be held liable when we would??
I don't believe the officer has said he winessed the car accelerating, just that it wasn't stopping. He could of just been "skimming" the brake pedal very lightly and showing brake lights without actually having any real pressure on the brakes. Also, he could of alternately hit the brakes and gas.
The CHP admits as much as they say they don't know one way or another what happened and will leave that up to the investigators to determine.
Are you suggesting that there is collusion going on? Well, if you are, I agree as I can't see any other reason for the two agencies Toyota and NHTSA doing an investigation with transparency as has been suggested by so many.
Once the brake switch is activated the throttle is set to idle. C'mon man let's not grasp.
"Bankrupt Runaway Prius Driver Owns Adult Swinger Site"
"His bankruptcy also shows the theft of a saxophone, clothes and other items from a car in April of last year for which his insurance paid $7,400. There's also an anonymous tip on the site Hobbub.com claiming items were mysterously lifted from his foreclosed home before the bank took control of the property:"
They say the entire kitchen was taken. Dang.
" but before giving posession back to the bank "someone" stole the ENTIRE kitchen out of the house .Granite countertops, cabinets, appliances and even the lights!"
Is this a spoof? I found it with google.
John
It appears the government is doing a possible investigaion on Toyota, and any good sound legal stance by NHTSA is lost also. Attorneys would be able to challenge any findings because of all the loopholes that exist.
So you think they might/could still find something anway?? Maybe I am too caught up on these other problems.
"A guy who has likely had his ‘Vette over 140MPH for many many miles on trips to Nevada is scared of putting a Pirus, traveling at 80MPH, into Neutral “because it might flip”???
No.
I’d like a peek at his driving record."
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-legal12-2010mar12,0,4401308.story
Not instantly, you have to hold the brake for a while. I am sure he rehearsed all that before attempting this scam.
A Prius is not safe at any speed over about 45 MPH. Poor handling, braking and wind bucking characteristics. A Corvette or Porsche at 140 MPH is safer than a Prius at 55 MPH. Only a nut case would drive a Prius over 55 MPH.
Welcome to the Forum and keep us posted on how it all turns out for you.
http://autos.globaltimes.cn/china/2010-01/499513.html
Nissan outpaces Toyota, Honda by sales in China Source: Gasgoo [14:44 January 19
2010]
Nissan Motor sold 756,000 vehicles under the brands of Nissan and Infiniti in
the Chinese market in 2009, jumping 39 percent from a year earlier.
By last December, the company had ranked number one among Japanese carmakers in terms of sales in China, overtaking archrival Toyota Motor Corporation.
In the meantime, Toyota's sales rose 21 percent to 709,000 vehicles in China.
That of Honda Motor Co., Ltd. hiked 22.5 percent to 576,000 vehicles. Besides
sales, Toyota and Honda were both behind Nissan in terms of overall growth.
In the year, the overall performance of Japanese carmakers was behind their
peers from the US, European, and South Korean. General Motors Corporation sold
1.8264 million vehicles, surging 66.9 percent, taking the first place among
foreign carmakers in terms of sales.
Shanghai Volkswagen Automotive Co., Ltd. (SVW) and FAW-VW Automobile Co., Ltd. together obtained sales of 1.4 million vehicles, leaping 36.7 percent. Hyundai
Kia Automotive Group sold 811,700 vehicles, outpacing Toyota.
Notably, foreign carmakers are divided into two groups in the Chinese market:
Toyota, Volkswagen, and Honda have two joint ventures, while General Motors,
Nissan, and Ford Motor Company (NYSE: F) each has only one partner. General
Motors and Nissan were ahead of Toyota, Volkswagen, and Honda in terms of either sales or overall growth last year.
For example, Dongfeng Nissan Passenger Vehicle Company started operation in
2003, five years later than the ventures of Toyota and Honda. Its sales outlets
are fewer than those of the latter. However, its performance is much better.
Because all of Nissan's car models are sold in the sales outlets of Dongfeng
Nissan, customers have better acknowledgement of Nissan as a Japanese brand.
Meanwhile, investors of Dongfeng Nissan's sales outlets get more stable sales
and profits.
Instead of continuing to risk dying for toyota, why don't Americans just either buy American cars like Warren Buffett (who always like first class stuff like good companies), or just buy the Nissan LEAF ?
Remember who is leading the charge in during this occasion. These progressives are completely controlled by big labor unions. The unions have no control over companies such as Toyota because they tend to build their cars in right to work states. Don't think for a minute that this grandstanding concerning Toyota is anything less.
I'm sure the people that have problems with their drive by wire Toyotas are genuine for the most part. However when big labor unions want to bring down a Japanese company, they directly attack its most valuable prize, customer loyalty and assurance. After all the government invested a vast sum of money in GM and they need to sell cars to make back that money.
About the time the US government sunk tones of our US dollars into GM, they had to recall 1.5 million vehicles because they catch on fire. Did the congress call GM before its body at that time? Or how about the most recent recall of 1.3 million GM cars due to power steering failure? Has the congress shown even the slightest interest in hearing from GM? How about Chryslers recent recall of 25,000 pickup trucks due to brake failure? Or lets talk about the Sebring which was recalled in 2010 due to brake failure, or the 2009 Chrysler 300 recall because the vehicles were constructed without a front wheel spindle nut? Or the nearly 300k HHRs, 300k Acadia that have been recalled because the transmission shift cable does not actually shift the car into park, causing it to roll away unattended? Or the Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep Nitro, Liberty, Sebring, Grand Cherokee, Aventer series where the brakes fail without warning and the vehicle can not be stopped?
Why isn't congress interested in all these recalls? The risk to Americans lives is just as great if not greater. At least with the Toyota all one needs to is place the transmission in neutral, what if the brakes completely fail as in the case of the Chrysler? or the steering fails as in the case of the GM? You see its all about image and congress is using the TV set to bring down the image of Toyota, that is their end goal and its completely political.
Did the CEO of Chrysler apologize to the American public for the brake issues? Did the CEO of GM apologize to the American public for the steering and vast other recall failures which endangered life and limb. Hell no! These US government run companies never even considered it. and they never will! Toyota is not perfect, however the Japanese will put every effort into making things right with their customers. This will never be the case with a arrogant, government entity such as GM or Chrysler. Plan on suing GM? or Chrysler? wait and see what happens to you if you try. You will be subject to every evil type of government investigation which exists in their arsenal. If it were me, I would never purchase a GM or Chrysler until the US government is no longer an owner. I'll take my chances with a good hearted, privately owned, corporate CEO any day.
Maybe perjury would go into the mix?
We know that Toyota has suppressed internal evidence over safety issues. Employees have come forth stating that Toyota has been short on engineering and quality control, and long on upping production.
Let's not forget the Inaba slide show given showing the emphasis on skirting gov't safety regs to the tune of $100s of millions. It's definitely going to get worse before it gets better for them.
We'll see. I think when the NHTSA issues their findings, all the PR, all the damage control and smearing the public complaints in the world is going to help them. Toyota is going to be in a world of hurt......much worse than they are now.
Second, you are leaving one factor out of your historical account that is still important to many Americans, and that is ethics. A lot of people just don't like being lied to. The recent California Prius incident provides proof that the problem is in the electronics if one understands how the brake and throttle are designed to interact. There is no doubt that Toyota knows the problem is in the electronics (even if they have not known it for the past three years), but they are still denying it.
Third, that 10:1 ratio you refer to may be due to the evidence that has recently been exposed of Toyota paying off people to squash investigations.
Fourth, 99% of the recalls that have occurred across all car makers including Toyota were due to a well understood problem with a straight-forward fix. Even though Toyota must know it is an electronics problem, I do believe that they have not figured out the cause. Rather than say so, they blame mats and pedals.
Well, Mr. Sikes apparently did that too.
I will be out in the heavy rain today on I-64 and I-81. There are a lot of Priuses on the road every Friday (road trip to the nursing home), and often in the left lane, when I pass through Charlottesville and later approach Harrisonburg on I-81. C-ville has UVA and H-burg has JMU. There're a lot in Richmond too for that matter. They're everywhere, they're everywhere.
I like my new HL Limited. I like the slightly firmer ride of the HL over the '06 Avalon XLS I sold. And it's 8+ inches shorter.
Mechanical devices break sometimes and accidents happen. Be prepared.
John
PS There are no braking problems with the 2nd generation Prius.
I think Corvette is more stable at 140 than Prius at 80 but it is an opinion not fact.
I do agree that Prius does not seem to have handling issues.
Krzys